First off, if I consider myself not to be Coptic, it is my own business.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I attend a Coptic parish, and am Oriental Orthodox alone.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I know many who were accepted into the COC, and don't consider themselves Coptic Orthodox (Grigorii, Sarah, etc.) to say a few.
I don’t care about your or anyone else’s ridiculous semantics. If you are baptised into the Coptic Orthodox Church, you are subject to the Coptic Patriarchate — not the Armenian, not the Indian, not the Syrian; call yourself Coptic, or call yourself Slim Shady for all I care, the fact remains that the Bishops and Patriarch of the Coptic Church are your authorities; if you don’t like it, then leave the Coptic Church — no one forced you to be Coptic (and yes, I am disregarding your semantics) and no one is forcing you to stay; I hope you find a church that accommodates your dancing needs.
Secondly, it is like drinking amoung Copts.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So many Copts (even clergy) condemn it.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š If it were truly a sin to drink, then why do other Orthodox Churches allow the consumption of alchohol (and it's not just Eastern Orthodox Churches; many Oriental Orthodox Churches do as well).ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Once more, it is the Synod allowing THEIR cultural norms to be the only Orthodox understanding.
Please stop talking rubbish; the Holy Synod has never made a ruling against the consumption of alcohol per se.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Do you need to lie just to downgrade your own Church and her Holy Hierarchs?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š
His Grace Bishop Youssef says in relation to alcohol:Regarding the Church’s viewpoint in relation to alcohol drinking; the Church does not say drinking alcohol is sinful but the abuse of alcohol is sinful. Although this is the position of the church, it advocates complete abstinence from drinking because the possibility of abuse is usually very high.
Again, I commend the Holy Coptic Church for siding with caution and recommending that people practice complete abstinence, though not condemning alcohol per se.
Do you want to get drunk as well Shawn? Are you looking for a Church that will advocate a life of partying, dancing and drinking? The Coptic Church will not accommodate to such worldly desires — that is the job ofÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.well, the worldÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦
Once more, it is the Synod allowing THEIR cultural norms to be the only Orthodox understanding.
So in light of the facts, allow me to rephrase the above statement to: “Once more, it is the anti-Christ allowing HIS lies to be your only understanding of the Coptic Orthodox Church”
However, I don't see you so bold amoung Sarah and Peter Farrington when they state the exact same thing as me.
Firstly, there is no analogy between any of the discussions I’ve had with them, and discussion I’m having with you, and secondly this isn’t personal, so stop trying to make it personal.
I never proclaimed obedience was heresy.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š What I DO believe is that blind obedience is.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Period. Do you even know what heresy is? Blind obedience may result in negative consequences, but we are not speaking about the issue of obedience in a vacuum here. There are specific issues raised here, and it is in that context that we speak of obedience, so enough of the games and deal with those issues.
Hmm, weren't you also stating some concern over some of Pope Shenouda's books?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Ahh, so YOU YOURSELF aren't blindly obedient to the popes or any bishops words.
My raising genuine concerns over certain issues relating to His Holiness does not parallel to your unwarranted slander and rebellion.
I’m not going to let you sidetrack this discussion, so allow me to recall for you the relevant issue of this discussion which you have deliberately evaded:
a) Certain Bishops rulings on dancing are motivated by moral, not cultural, concerns.
And now the issues you have brought in your last post, which you will need to address:
b) Certain Bishops rulings against drunkenness and their recommendations of complete abstinence are motivated by moral, not cultural, concerns.
c) The Holy Synod did not rule anything in relation to alcohol.
mean, EA, if you mum told you marry the girl SHE thought right over the girl YOU KNEW WAS RIGHT, you would obey? If you say yes, then my friend, you don't understand obedience.
You just don’t get it, do you? Please stop trying to use analogies because every analogy you have thus far employed has no relevance at all to the issues in discussion, you consistently keep missing the point.
Your personal conscious is NOT the ultimate authority, unless of course you are a Protestant. You have no good reason to disobey your Bishops; they are not telling you to sin, they — with their God-given wisdom and according to their spiritual enlightenment — in siding with caution and in attempting to prevent their youth from falling into potential temptation or sin, have made a general prohibition motivated by their moral, NOT CULTURAL, concerns.
You do not know better than they, your conscious is NOT an authority over them with respect to moral issues or with respect to how to live a safe spiritual life.
You don't know my heart, and you don't know how God see's me.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Sure I can't write a great article on a theological matter, but I am beginning to REALLY FEEL AND KNOW GOD IN MY LIFE.
Trust me, the next Protestant feels exactly the same way. Alleluia, Praise God.
Hmm, it also appears that many WITHIN THE ORIENTAL ORTHODOX COMMUNITY have easily pointed out mistakes from HH
The Pope is not infallible, Copts are not Roman Catholics. However, AGAIN, you are evdading the issues at hand, which have nothing to do with the Pope being infallible. We are not speaking generally or in a vacuum. There are specific issues at hand which you yourself have brought up and insist on not dealing with.
Allow me to repeat myself: The Bishops have made a valid moral decision in siding with caution, and for the sake of the spiritual protection of their youth; this decision has NOTHING to do with culture.
So give me one good reason, why you should disobey your Bishops, without resorting to a Protestant-type argument that holds your conscious as some sort of ultimate authority.
You may say I'm a bit childish; I'll just say the same thing about you and your love for Coptic culture.
Again I ask: WHAT HAS CULTURE GOT TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION?
I hope you actually read my post this time before responding with some ramble that totally sidetracks the relevant issues at hand; stop copping out and stop repeating the same old stupid claims that I have already addressed.