Author Topic: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?  (Read 5043 times)

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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2016, 03:53:07 AM »
WGW, when I am next at my computer today, I shall reply to your excellently worded answer. PLEASE allow me the chance before responding again. But yes. LCMS WOULD consider St. Mary the Mother of  God, just as Luther always did!

In a bit then,
Diego

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2016, 11:17:06 AM »
Quote
They have not only Seven Sacraments, seven gifts of the Holy Ghost, seven deadly sins, and seven days in the week, but seven general councils, dimly foretold long ages ago by the seven branched candlestick.

The Orthodox Eastern Church
By Adrian Fortescue

Seven is a holy number, and Seven councils have been the foundation of the Church for 1000 years. 

Three persons of the Trinity, three Synoptic Gospels, three ecumenical councils, three days and three nights in the tomb as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, etc. 
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2016, 01:18:53 PM »
Contrary to what you may choose to think, I am NOT here to make you Lutherans.

Right, you are here to play Judy to wgw's Punch.

LOL, speaking of Punches ...

I would love OC.net's Punch to return and talk Lutheranism with Diego. That would be a fun discussion.

+1000000000000

I miss Punch.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2016, 01:21:45 PM »
Reading some of Fr. Adrian Fortescue's ridiculous criticism on the Holy Orthodox Church leads me to believe he's a perfect example of how reading a lot of books doesn't make one a master in a given subject.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2016, 03:00:10 PM »
Actually, lets make something clear. This is an intellectual exercise for me. Nothing more. I don't ultimately care WHAT you think of me or my Church. The fact that all of you put so much emphasis on Bishops is rather amusing to me. I was raised Catholic and Anglican. The Anglican Church calls my Church out for not having Bishops even whilst ordaining homosexuals to that august office. The OO call us out for the same reason even whilst not comprehending the Two Natures of Jesus Christ. ALL of you are Synergystic, which borders on Semi-Pelagianism, if it does not actually reach that point. So, criticise me as much as you like. I am fine with that. But DON'T misstate my motives, or my beliefs. No. Contrary to what you may choose to think, I am NOT here to make you Lutherans. But I WON'T stand for you to misstate, or outright lie, about my beliefs or intentions. Thank you, please!

Do you even know what Pelagius taught? Do you even know what Augustine taught? And do you know what John Cassian taught?

If not, then start here: https://shamelessorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/pelagius-explored-on-his-own-terms-part-one/
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Offline wgw

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2016, 04:09:34 PM »
Anyone who would say there is only 3 is simply inaccurate about the number. Even the rankest of 5 Point Calvinists recognise 4. The Confessions recognise 7. Even though many American Lutherans have admittedly made their beds with Protestants and often only recognise 4 (I personally am more High Church and go with 7), that still stands us in better steed than someone who only recognises 3.

Except to the extent that you don't actually recognize all of these councils. 
Actually, you are WAY off. We are NOT all in communion with each other.

Thank you for your correction on that point. I'm still interested to know how you define 'orthodox' when you have a chance.

wgw, thank you for your detailed input. It was helpful for me as well to learn about these things in a bigger context. I have a question assuming I'm understanding adiaphora properly:

I dont think we even believe in such a thing as adiaphora [...]

Wouldn't things like pews and veils be considered such if not all jurisdictions follow them?

Not neccessarily; there are many who say the introduction of pews and the removal of veils is an entirely unacceptable deviarion from orthopraxis.  The idea of orthopraxis exists even in Oriental Orthodoxy; we have multiple liturgical rites which are recognized as equally Orthodox, but the differences between them are not adiaphora but the regional configuration of the local church liturgical rite based on the spiritual discernment of her bishops.  The same can be applied to monasticism; to the extent monasteries are different in terms of their rules, with some being stricter, some being idiorythmic and so on, this is based on the traditional approach of that monastery's hegumens over the centuries to the spiritual requirements of the brethren for their formation.  Its not adiaphora because it matters and is not interchangeable or optional within the specific local context.

And even then there are people who say that all of these variations are due to an excess of oikonomia and there should be rigid standardization.  Consider for example the Russian Old Believers who reject entirely the Nikonian revisions and insist upon the precise use of the Old Rite.

Even if we have adiaphora, which I am not convined we do, because I have never read the term in any Orthodox literature (instead I believe we have local rites due to inculturation, mission and spiritual economy but rites which are not inherently interchangeable and which are certainly not mutable, so for example, a Russian Orthodox parish should not use the Revised Julian Calendar because the Bulgarians use it and it doesn't really matter; a Greek parish should not use the All Night Vigils according to the specific Russian practice but should instead follow their typikon, a Syriac parish should not use the Coptic Agpeya instead of the Shimo, and so on; these rites may be ameliorable to a guided integration in the diaspora in the manner of the OCA, but the OCA hasnt yet been really successful at that), this adiaphora is over liturgical differences which are trivial compared to, for example, the sweeping differences between, in the LCMS, their Red Hymnal of 1941, the Blue Hymnal of the 1980s and the Lutheran Service Book of today, and the idea of having the Episcopate be an optional extra is frankly inconceivable.

Adiaphora conveys a proto-Pietistic stance that it doesn't matter, and Pietism* and Rationalism marked the end of the so called "Lutheran Orthodoxy" and colldctively represent the basis for the spiritual decline of Protestantism.

*As the word was understood in Germany, Poland, and by most Orthodox theologians.  I have encountered compelling articles by the Evangelical Free Church and various Scandinavian Protestant churches which suggest that there, it does not mean basically what the Anglicans would call Latitudinarianism, but something else, although what it means in that context Im frankly unsure of.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2016, 04:09:51 PM »
Reading some of Fr. Adrian Fortescue's ridiculous criticism on the Holy Orthodox Church leads me to believe he's a perfect example of how reading a lot of books doesn't make one a master in a given subject.

Link?
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2016, 04:16:54 PM »
Quote
They have not only Seven Sacraments, seven gifts of the Holy Ghost, seven deadly sins, and seven days in the week, but seven general councils, dimly foretold long ages ago by the seven branched candlestick.

The Orthodox Eastern Church
By Adrian Fortescue

Seven is a holy number, and Seven councils have been the foundation of the Church for 1000 years. 

Three persons of the Trinity, three Synoptic Gospels, three ecumenical councils, three days and three nights in the tomb as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, etc.

I would also note that I have encountered several Byzantine Orthodox settings with three oil lamps on the altar and not seven, for example, at St. Anthonys in Florence.

Also many pious Orthodox such as the Serbian Church have expressed a desire for the Photian Synod which condemned the filioque to be regarded as ecumenical, because Rome was present and for a time assented.  Some even say the Palamist council was Ecumenical, and count Trullo separately, taking us to ten.  And we could argue the Council of Bethlehem (Dositheus) had pan Orthodox participation and reception and would be ecumenical on the same basis.

The logic behind a specific number of councils determined arbitrarily is in my opinion equivalent to the logic behind Snow White having seven dwarves.

For that matter, I have seen criticisms of the view that there are seven sacraments as an import from Roman Catholicism, that would instead add to the number of Mysteries of similiar rank the Great and Lesser Blessing of Water, the memorial and burial services, the churching of women, and other items found in the Euchologion, often regarding these sacred mysteries without distinguishing between sacrament and sacramental.

Now I am not sure this is correct, but the opinion has been expressed and to my knowledge no one has been anathematized for it.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2016, 05:54:35 PM »
Reading some of Fr. Adrian Fortescue's ridiculous criticism on the Holy Orthodox Church leads me to believe he's a perfect example of how reading a lot of books doesn't make one a master in a given subject.
Link?
I had this impression reading excerpts from The Lesser Eastern Churches, he would insert bits of opinion here and there, sometimes clearly wrong and presumptuous, such as saying the imposition of a rite, as it was made onto Chalcedonian Egyptians and Antiochians, was something unparalleled in the RCC. There were other tidbits but I can't recall them right now, he could collect a lot of knowledge in his book but in a very uncritical, sometimes opinionating, way. Now this excerpt rakovsky posted repeats my first impression.
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2016, 10:17:52 PM »
The idea of orthopraxis exists even in Oriental Orthodoxy; we have multiple liturgical rites which are recognized as equally Orthodox, but the differences between them are not adiaphora but the regional configuration of the local church liturgical rite based on the spiritual discernment of her bishops. [...] Its not adiaphora because it matters and is not interchangeable or optional within the specific local context.

wgw, thank you, this is very helpful.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2016, 01:20:49 AM »
Quote
They have not only Seven Sacraments, seven gifts of the Holy Ghost, seven deadly sins, and seven days in the week, but seven general councils, dimly foretold long ages ago by the seven branched candlestick.

The Orthodox Eastern Church
By Adrian Fortescue

Seven is a holy number, and Seven councils have been the foundation of the Church for 1000 years. 

Three persons of the Trinity, three Synoptic Gospels, three ecumenical councils, three days and three nights in the tomb as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, etc.
Three is a holy number repeatedly referring to the Trinity and resurrection, but seven is a number of completion as shown in the seven days of Creation. Hence, the complete number of Councils is Seven.
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2016, 02:19:12 AM »
How can it be any number other than 4? How many gospels? How many directions on the compass? How many winds? How many corners of the earth? Are we to say that 4 was enough for the Gospels--even though St. John said much of what Jesus said was excluded--but yet 4 councils were not enough for the Church? Outrage!

On the other hand, 6 is the number of man and all creation (the universe was formed in 6 days), and thus the 6 Councils are a perfect representation of God's work through the Church as a theanthropic organism. You know which 6 I mean.

On the other hand, it cannot be ignored that there were 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes of Israel, etc., and so the most blessed number associated with the peoples of God throughout history. This aligns with my own, thoughtful, humble, belief. Thus there are 12 Ecumenical councils:

1) Nicea 325
2) Constantinople 381
3) Ephesus 431
4) Chalcedon 451
5) Justinian's Council 553
6) The Monothelite Thing 680
7) Trullo 692
8) Icondulic Council 787
9) Photian Council 879
10) First Palamite Council 1341
11) Second Palamite Council 1347
12) Third Palamite Council 1351

(Note: some, ignorant of history as they are, wish to group the above final three councils, and even more, into a single Palamite Council, and sometimes extend their madness further by making Trullo not an Ecumenical Council. This is insanity. Men such as these declare sometimes that there are only 10 true councils, using as evidence [falsely so-called] that the number 10 is the central base in most western mathematical schemes; while others add two addition councils in Jassy and Jerusalem to arrive at the God-ordained number of 12; the most ludicrous are those who arrive at the number 11, as though such a number could ever be holy... do they not know that even secular buildings all over the world and in NYC exclude an 11th floor because that number is God-forsaken!?)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 02:23:56 AM by Asteriktos »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2016, 04:03:00 AM »
How can it be any number other than 4? How many gospels? How many directions on the compass? How many winds? How many corners of the earth? Are we to say that 4 was enough for the Gospels--even though St. John said much of what Jesus said was excluded--but yet 4 councils were not enough for the Church? Outrage!

On the other hand, 6 is the number of man and all creation (the universe was formed in 6 days), and thus the 6 Councils are a perfect representation of God's work through the Church as a theanthropic organism. You know which 6 I mean.

On the other hand, it cannot be ignored that there were 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes of Israel, etc., and so the most blessed number associated with the peoples of God throughout history. This aligns with my own, thoughtful, humble, belief. Thus there are 12 Ecumenical councils:

1) Nicea 325
2) Constantinople 381
3) Ephesus 431
4) Chalcedon 451
5) Justinian's Council 553
6) The Monothelite Thing 680
7) Trullo 692
8) Icondulic Council 787
9) Photian Council 879
10) First Palamite Council 1341
11) Second Palamite Council 1347
12) Third Palamite Council 1351

(Note: some, ignorant of history as they are, wish to group the above final three councils, and even more, into a single Palamite Council, and sometimes extend their madness further by making Trullo not an Ecumenical Council. This is insanity. Men such as these declare sometimes that there are only 10 true councils, using as evidence [falsely so-called] that the number 10 is the central base in most western mathematical schemes; while others add two addition councils in Jassy and Jerusalem to arrive at the God-ordained number of 12; the most ludicrous are those who arrive at the number 11, as though such a number could ever be holy... do they not know that even secular buildings all over the world and in NYC exclude an 11th floor because that number is God-forsaken!?)

Most amusing.  But perhaps we could spice things up in an OO direction by auggesting that Ephesus II was not a Latrocinium as claimed but the true fourth council (note, I don't actually believe that; I think St. Dioscorus got in a bit over his head with Ephesus II and neglected to realize he did not have the political clout or diplomatic skills of his predeccessor, and this enabled the more unpleasant elements of Chalcedon, although Chalcedon I agree with to the extent that it, like the Oriental Orthodox church from the beginning, condemns Eutyches as an heresiarch.  But why did they rehabilitate Ibas?)
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2016, 11:52:29 AM »
Quote
They have not only Seven Sacraments, seven gifts of the Holy Ghost, seven deadly sins, and seven days in the week, but seven general councils, dimly foretold long ages ago by the seven branched candlestick.

The Orthodox Eastern Church
By Adrian Fortescue

Seven is a holy number, and Seven councils have been the foundation of the Church for 1000 years. 

Three persons of the Trinity, three Synoptic Gospels, three ecumenical councils, three days and three nights in the tomb as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, etc.
Three is a holy number repeatedly referring to the Trinity and resurrection, but seven is a number of completion as shown in the seven days of Creation. Hence, the complete number of Councils is Seven.

Six (6) is the number just shy of completion, which is why it is associated with human weakness, sin, and the devil.  I guess you guys needed to destroy icons and kill people in order to save your faith from the satanic incompleteness of having only six ecumenical councils back in the seventh century. 

IOW, things don't work the way you think they work, rakovsky.   
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2016, 12:26:04 PM »
^. I guess "you guys" needed to violently reject Chalcedon and kill St. Proterius in gruesome fashion and other chalcedonians when you don't get your way and  kill people in order to save your faith in the satanic  and fanatic need to have only three ecumenical councils back in the fourth century. 

IOW, things don't work the way you think they work, Mor.

We forgive such sins against the Church, yet it seems that you cannot find it within yourselves to see that Diascorus was legally and Ecumenically deposed, just as Nestorius before him, and the well known and well documented violence of the curcumcellions and donatist influences in what would become OO bastions was part and parcel to the rejection of conciliar love.

https://oca.org/saints/lives/2000/02/28/100617-hieromartyr-proterius-the-patriarch-of-alexandria

http://www.ecatholic2000.com/history3/untitled-36.shtml

Things most definately don't work the way you think they work.  Luckily Christ still loves us all and seeks our unity.

ONE is the loneliest number.   
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 12:37:58 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2016, 12:29:25 PM »
I'm surprised anyone takes the whole numbers game in biblical exegesis seriously anymore.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2016, 12:49:29 PM »
^. I guess "you guys" needed to violently reject Chalcedon and kill St. Proterius in gruesome fashion and other chalcedonians when you don't get your way and  kill people in order to save your faith in the satanic  and fanatic need to have only three ecumenical councils back in the fourth century. 

IOW, things don't work the way you think they work, Mor.

We forgive such sins against the Church, yet it seems that you cannot find it within yourselves to see that Diascorus was legally and Ecumenically deposed, just as Nestorius before him, and the well known and well documented violence of the curcumcellions and donatist influences in what would become OO bastions was part and parcel to the rejection of conciliar love.

https://oca.org/saints/lives/2000/02/28/100617-hieromartyr-proterius-the-patriarch-of-alexandria

http://www.ecatholic2000.com/history3/untitled-36.shtml

Things most definately don't work the way you think they work.  Luckily Christ still loves us all and seeks our unity.

ONE is the loneliest number.

I guess that's why you want to join rakovsky in not making any sense?

The point is that "Orthodoxy" is not determined by a particular number of councils, be it two, three, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or twenty-one.  Councils are recognised if, when, and because they are Orthodox.   

But I am grateful that I've been able to get you and augustin717 on the same side of an issue for once.  How good and how pleasant it is... 
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Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #107 on: October 16, 2016, 01:31:41 PM »
^. I guess "you guys" needed to violently reject Chalcedon and kill St. Proterius in gruesome fashion and other chalcedonians when you don't get your way and  kill people in order to save your faith in the satanic  and fanatic need to have only three ecumenical councils back in the fourth century. 

IOW, things don't work the way you think they work, Mor.

We forgive such sins against the Church, yet it seems that you cannot find it within yourselves to see that Diascorus was legally and Ecumenically deposed, just as Nestorius before him, and the well known and well documented violence of the curcumcellions and donatist influences in what would become OO bastions was part and parcel to the rejection of conciliar love.

https://oca.org/saints/lives/2000/02/28/100617-hieromartyr-proterius-the-patriarch-of-alexandria

http://www.ecatholic2000.com/history3/untitled-36.shtml

Things most definately don't work the way you think they work.  Luckily Christ still loves us all and seeks our unity.

ONE is the loneliest number.

I guess that's why you want to join rakovsky in not making any sense?

The point is that "Orthodoxy" is not determined by a particular number of councils, be it two, three, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, or twenty-one.  Councils are recognised if, when, and because they are Orthodox.   

But I am grateful that I've been able to get you and augustin717 on the same side of an issue for once.  How good and how pleasant it is...

Indeed, I think numerology is best left for the practitioners of Chinese folk religion.

Otherwise there surely must be 41 ecumenical councils, and not 12 or 7 or 3, because there are forty one and not forty Kyrie Eleisons in each hour of the Coptic Agpeya, the number 41 appears frequently in the work of JS Bach using the obscure musical technique of sogetto caveto, and while he wasnt Orthodox and his cantatas were kind of annoying, his organ fugues were, like, totally awesome, and also some divination using the I Ching says so.   :P

~

Note that it is for the same reason that I am not completely convinced that the count of seven sacraments is exact, or an import from Roman Catholicism; the Syriac Orthodox shorter catechism says there are seven, but I still can't quite grasp what makes holy unction a mystery of the church, while the blessing of water, for instance, is not a mystery, given that both serve a similiar functional purpose and are efficacious for healing.  But if the catechism says we have seven sacraments, I am not going to argue with it, but if we later decide that other Euchologion type services are mysteries and the exacr figure of seven was due to RC influence, that would not in any sense discombobulate me.

But from an LCMS perspective, this is irrelevant because they are at best paying lip service to Nicea II, as you never see them kiss or venerate their iconography, or their relics, and many Lutherans are cremated in violation of ancient canons and the clear spirit of Nicea II; likewise I don't see how their theology survives council no. 6 and references to St. Mary as the Mother of God are quite lacking in their tradition, which suggests a violation of council no. 3.

Also, Canon XX of Nicea prohibits kneeling on Sundays, feast days and between Pascha and Pentecost, but I am reasonably certain Lutherans use a communion rail and kneel at it and in the pews in some parishes, and in others may even genuflect, although practically Canon XX seems to be a dead-letter canon; the Coptic church does full metanies during the Epiklesis and Fraction, and this again seems contrary to Canon XX.  But if one wanted to be ultra-strict about what adherence to the ancient councils mean, much of the LCMS flunks Nicea on that basis.   Also, since Nicea was decided by bishops...

Lastly most people who insist on seven councils count Trullo as providing the canonical legislation that accompanies councils 5 and 6, hence the name Quinisext, and there is no way the LCMS is compliant with those canons.  The mere use of unleavened bread or straight wine results in a fail on that count; the Roman Church never accepted Quinisext canons and the LCMS is descended from Lutherans who broke away from Rome while retaining those portions of the Roman Rite they deemed, I suppose, pleasing must be the only word that fits, since the distinction between what Luther accepted, rejected or interpolated, that is to say, added, was by his own admission arbitrary and according to his own authority as "Dr. Martin Luther."
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #108 on: October 16, 2016, 01:40:11 PM »
Mor,

Wow.   You too miss the point entirely. 

I don't buy into the whole numbers game and never said I did.   I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

You're right, Councils are recognized by when they are reflective of Ortho-doxy - i.e. "right-glory."   The glory of God is His Son, who is Love.   Conciliarity is the work of Love within the Church.   Those who reject that process are no longer attempting to fulfill the law of love within the Church Body.  See Cyprian On the Unity of the Church.

In any event, I don't blame current OO for their having been lead into this error, except insofar as its clergy continue to lead others into error and away from conciliar love.   There is much good and holy about the OO Tradition and I hope one day we can close the gap between ourselves.   But this would take a recognition on the OO part of certain issues they misrepresent.   And I'm sure, it would take the same from your persepective of us.

But if you're going to tout the violence of iconoclasm as a nonsense answer to nonsense numerology - which you yourself are mockingly entertaining... I'm going to give you an earful about the rigorist movements whose common use of violence, justified by your Saint Shenoute, even carried out in practice in violently creating a robber council at the behest of your Diascorus, resulting in the beating of  Saint Flavian and mortal wounds from that beating, would finally lead them to close the deal by becoming OO and splitting from the Church.

However this may be, we still love you.   Alas, that love finds no outlet and we remain divided. :(
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 01:50:15 PM by Onesimus »

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #109 on: October 16, 2016, 01:40:19 PM »
Of course, historic Anglicanism was just as arbitrary, especially the semi-Catholic variety practiced at court.  What makes Anglicanism salvageable is an Anglo Catholic perspective that basically ignores Anglican confessional documents like the 39 Articles and regards the priesthood as sacramental, and seeks to make Anglicanism a network of autocephalous national provinces in a communion that resembles structurally the Orthodox communion, with the Archbishop of Canterbury serving a role analogous to that of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

That never happened because the Anglo Catholics never had enough power and always lost members to the Roman church, and liberalism has taken over "the global North;" the so called Global South has some very Anglo Catholic provinces like Ghana, but also some very evangelical provinces like Sydney, and I do not see a pathway for all of it to come into Orthodoxy.  But some of the continuing Anglican churches of the Anglo Catholic persuasion might be received entire; this was how the AWRV came into being.  In contrast, I am aware of no Lutheran churches, even some of the very small and Catholic-looking portions like ELDONA, that would probably agree to convert to Orthodoxy.  Perhaps with much persuasion, the breakaway Mission Province of the Church of Sweden, or some of the conservative parts of the Lutheran Church of Finland might join the Orthodox if meaningful differentiation is preserved.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2016, 01:47:26 PM »
Mor,

Wow.   You too miss the point entirely. 

I don't buy into the whole numbers game and never said I did.   I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

You're right, Councils are recognized by when they are reflective of Ortho-doxy - i.e. "right-glory."   The glory of God is His Son, who is Love.   Conciliarity is the work of Love within the Church.   Those who reject that process are no longer attempting to fulfill the law of love within the Church Body.  See Cyprian On the Unity of the Church.

In any event, I don't blame current OO for their having been lead into this error, except insofar as its clergy continue to lead others into error and away from conciliar love.   There is much good and holy about the OO Tradition and I hope one day we can close the gap between ourselves.   But this would take a recognition on the OO part of certain issues they misrepresent.   And I'm sure, it would take the same from your persepective of us.

But if you're going to tout the violence of iconoclasm as a nonsense answer to nonsense numerology - which you yourself are mockingly entertaining... I'm going to give you an earful about the rigorist movements who common use of violence would finally lead them to close the deal by becoming OO and splitting from the Church.

However this may be, we still love you.   Alas, that love finds no outlet and we remain divided. :(

Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   

Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about in your post.   There was never sustained iconoclasm in the Oriental church, unlike in the Chalcedonian church, so we do not really need the seventh council.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2016, 01:55:16 PM »
Mor,

Wow.   You too miss the point entirely. 

I don't buy into the whole numbers game and never said I did.   I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

You're right, Councils are recognized by when they are reflective of Ortho-doxy - i.e. "right-glory."   The glory of God is His Son, who is Love.   Conciliarity is the work of Love within the Church.   Those who reject that process are no longer attempting to fulfill the law of love within the Church Body.  See Cyprian On the Unity of the Church.

In any event, I don't blame current OO for their having been lead into this error, except insofar as its clergy continue to lead others into error and away from conciliar love.   There is much good and holy about the OO Tradition and I hope one day we can close the gap between ourselves.   But this would take a recognition on the OO part of certain issues they misrepresent.   And I'm sure, it would take the same from your persepective of us.

But if you're going to tout the violence of iconoclasm as a nonsense answer to nonsense numerology - which you yourself are mockingly entertaining... I'm going to give you an earful about the rigorist movements who common use of violence would finally lead them to close the deal by becoming OO and splitting from the Church.

However this may be, we still love you.   Alas, that love finds no outlet and we remain divided. :(

Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   

Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about in your post.   There was never sustained iconoclasm in the Oriental church, unlike in the Chalcedonian church, so we do not really need the seventh council.

WGW,

Do in depth research into the rigorist movments of North Africa and Egypt and the Robber Council of Ephesus and the Fourth Ecumenical Council.   All you need to know is out there, if you dig deeply.   My post was about the schism between the OO and EO, not about iconoclasm, except insofar as a response to Mor's rhetoric using it as a dull, rusty blade with which to bludgeon others.

Love means more than "happy times" - it means suffering to find union with those who are seeking disunion - just as Christ had.   In this respect, both our Traditions need to seek one another, for neither of us are fulfilling the law of love towards one another to the degree that Christ would have us.   But yes, we have much affinity, though not true union in the fullness of Love.

God bless...I have faith that one day our unity will be fulfilled and forgiveness will reign.   This is truly an act of the Spirit working  on the hearts of men.   I believe that certain leaders have led the OO Church into the error of schism.   But I also believe that as a Church they are functionally Orthodox and the sad history of schism is a matter of neither side being able to forgive and come to terms with the ugly nature of their shared history and bring it into the light.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 02:04:49 PM by Onesimus »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2016, 02:08:00 PM »


Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   
I so want to see this.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2016, 02:14:10 PM »


Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   
I so want to see this.

Would you settle for a picture of Mor and myself hugging? 

Whad'ya say Mor?    :-*

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2016, 02:18:41 PM »
^. I guess "you guys" needed to violently reject Chalcedon and kill St. Proterius in gruesome fashion and other chalcedonians
I didn't remember St. Proterius.

Quote
Hieromartyr Proterius of Alexandria (died 457), Patriarch of Alexandria (451–457), was elected by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 to replace Dioscorus of Alexandria, who had been deposed by the same council. His accession marks the beginning of the Schism of 451 between the Coptic Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox patriarchs of Alexandria, which has never been completely resolved. Because the church of Alexandria was largely Non-Chalcedonian, the deposition of Dioscorus, a Non-Chalcedonian, from the Patriarchate, and the elevation of Proterius, a Chalcedonian, to it, was violently opposed. Finally in 457 the Non-Chalcedonian party in Alexandria elected Timothy Aelurus as Patriarch of Alexandria, in opposition to Proterius, who was subsequently martyred by Coptic mobs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterius_of_Alexandria
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2016, 02:19:37 PM »


Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   
I so want to see this.

Would you settle for a picture of Mor and myself hugging? 

Whad'ya say Mor?    :-*
Only a real one.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2016, 02:28:47 PM »
Mor,

Wow.   You too miss the point entirely. 

I don't buy into the whole numbers game and never said I did.   I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

You're right, Councils are recognized by when they are reflective of Ortho-doxy - i.e. "right-glory."   The glory of God is His Son, who is Love.   Conciliarity is the work of Love within the Church.   Those who reject that process are no longer attempting to fulfill the law of love within the Church Body.  See Cyprian On the Unity of the Church.

In any event, I don't blame current OO for their having been lead into this error, except insofar as its clergy continue to lead others into error and away from conciliar love.   There is much good and holy about the OO Tradition and I hope one day we can close the gap between ourselves.   But this would take a recognition on the OO part of certain issues they misrepresent.   And I'm sure, it would take the same from your persepective of us.

But if you're going to tout the violence of iconoclasm as a nonsense answer to nonsense numerology - which you yourself are mockingly entertaining... I'm going to give you an earful about the rigorist movements who common use of violence would finally lead them to close the deal by becoming OO and splitting from the Church.

However this may be, we still love you.   Alas, that love finds no outlet and we remain divided. :(

Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   

Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about in your post.   There was never sustained iconoclasm in the Oriental church, unlike in the Chalcedonian church, so we do not really need the seventh council.

WGW,

Do in depth research into the rigorist movments of North Africa and Egypt and the Robber Council of Ephesus and the Fourth Ecumenical Council.   All you need to know is out there, if you dig deeply.   My post was about the schism between the OO and EO, not about iconoclasm, except insofar as a response to Mor's rhetoric using it as a dull, rusty blade with which to bludgeon others.

Love means more than "happy times" - it means suffering to find union with those who are seeking disunion - just as Christ had.   In this respect, both our Traditions need to seek one another, for neither of us are fulfilling the law of love towards one another to the degree that Christ would have us.   But yes, we have much affinity, though not true union in the fullness of Love.

God bless...I have faith that one day our unity will be fulfilled and forgiveness will reign.   This is truly an act of the Spirit working  on the hearts of men.   I believe that certain leaders have led the OO Church into the error of schism.   But I also believe that as a Church they are functionally Orthodox and the sad history of schism is a matter of neither side being able to forgive and come to terms with the ugly nature of their shared history and bring it into the light.

What you say however could also be applied to Old Calendarists, Russian Old Believers, or the Orthodox as a whole for refusing Papal supremacy and the filioque as innovations.  The OO idea was simply that Chalcedon was innovative; now maybe we were wrong, maybe Chalcedon was a legitimate expression of a de-Nestorianized Antiochene Christology, but the hymn of St. Severus, Ho Monoges, is a shared part of our tradition with the EOs, thanks to St. Justinian, and much OO language describing our Lord as the theanthropos worked its way into the Eastern church; St. Isaac the Nestorian Syrian is also venerated as a saint by both our churches despite him being a Nestorian and adhering to the idea of apokatastasis which was popular in the Nestorian church when he was alive (the attempts by some to show that Sebastian Brock translated the wrong St. Isaac look unconvincing at best, desperately apologetic at worst).

I think you are right though, the answer is love.  But I don't see Mor throwing iconoclasm in your face or in Augustin's per se; Mor likes to challenge us to think, and Mor has often helped me to increase my understanding of the faith and even made me realize some things which I thought were, for example, errors in Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, were not erroneous. 

The bone of contention in this thread is really between the Orthodox and the Protestants; the Episcopalians are at pains to explain why they entered into communion with the ELCA, which regards the episcopate as an optional luxury, and the LCMS members are at pains to explain how with their lack of bishops et cetera they are more Catholic than the Anglicans.   I believe we together as Orthodox should keep the pressure up, so that other Protestants who read this thread will come to a realization of the truth of Orthodoxy and probably wind up joining your Communion (since Oriental Orthodoxy does not have or attract as many converts and at times in my experience feels at a loss as to how to deal with them, the exception being the fantastic St. George's Mission run by Fr. Peter in the UK, which has taken over the business of the British Orthodox Church, by business, I mean, most of the laity and a good chunk of the clergy, just not the buildings or the name. 

So if someone converts to Eastern Orthodoxy, I am 100% happy for them, because as I see it they are at home in a safe environment, which we also provide, but on a smaller scale and in more specific settings, so far at least.

By the way, if you think Oriental Orthodoxy is related to rigorist movements like Novatianism or Donatism, which your post seemed to imply, I think you will find that to be completely in error; we literally followed St. Cyril's exact formula and in that respect are rigorist, but St. Cyril was opposed to Donatism and Novatianism, and Montanism, and none of the errors of those movements, like the idea that someone who caved under torture vs. enduring persecution unto martyrdom is damned and cannot be forgiven or reconciled to the church, or that sins committed post-baptism cannot be pardoned, have ever been a part of the dogma of the canonical Oriental church.

Does that sound acceptable?
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2016, 02:29:05 PM »


Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   
I so want to see this.

Check your PMs
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2016, 02:41:34 PM »
I don't buy into the whole numbers game and never said I did. 

I wasn't talking to you in the first place.  You inserted yourself into an exchange between rakovsky and me.  I don't mind, but you need not defend yourself against claims I never ascribed to you as if I did. 

Quote
I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

I long ago lost hope in the concept of "serious dialogue with rakovsky".
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2016, 02:42:07 PM »


Hardly; there is nothing but love as far as I can tell between the Eastern and Oriental patriarchs in the Middle East.  There is a photo on the Net of the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem asleep on the shoulder of his Armenian counterpart during what looked to be a very boring Israeli presentation.   
I so want to see this.

Check your PMs
OK, sounds good. Feel free to let me know if you see it again.
Peace.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2016, 03:02:49 PM »

Quote
I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

I long ago lost hope in the concept of "serious dialogue with rakovsky".

Sounds like your problem.   I'll pray for you and your loss of hope in others.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2016, 04:46:10 PM »
I long ago lost hope in the concept of "serious dialogue with rakovsky".
I am sorry you feel that way, Mor. The document you pointed me to where OO hierarchs said that Chalcedon's formula was acceptable made a big impression on me.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #122 on: October 16, 2016, 04:50:41 PM »
But some of the continuing Anglican churches of the Anglo Catholic persuasion might be received entire; this was how the AWRV came into being.

Is there an existing thread that examines this possibility theoretically? Sorry, I don't know enough about the topic to know which keywords to use for a search.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #123 on: October 16, 2016, 05:43:16 PM »

Quote
I simply used your nonsense rhetoric back at you.

I long ago lost hope in the concept of "serious dialogue with rakovsky".

Sounds like your problem.   I'll pray for you and your loss of hope in others.

 :angel:
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #124 on: October 16, 2016, 06:44:10 PM »
But some of the continuing Anglican churches of the Anglo Catholic persuasion might be received entire; this was how the AWRV came into being.

Is there an existing thread that examines this possibility theoretically? Sorry, I don't know enough about the topic to know which keywords to use for a search.

Well there have been several but its kind of been something we have discussed ad nauseum.  However, the Western Rite Liturgics forum provides a realm in which you can find out practically whatever you wish about the AWRV, the ROCOR Western Rite, et al.

What we should probably avoid though is a thread speculating on which continuing Anglican churches might or might not "come over from the dark side of the Bosphorus."  Because that would just be wishful thinking.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #125 on: October 16, 2016, 06:46:41 PM »
Is there an existing thread that examines this possibility theoretically? Sorry, I don't know enough about the topic to know which keywords to use for a search.
We have a whole section of the forum dedicated to Western Rite Orthodox:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/board,35.0.html

If an Anglo-Catholic church wants to keep its Western forms of worship in general ways and still join Orthodoxy's communion and agree with Orthodox theology, they can become Western Rite Orthodox.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #126 on: October 17, 2016, 03:33:41 AM »
If an Anglo-Catholic church wants to keep its Western forms of worship in general ways and still join Orthodoxy's communion and agree with Orthodox theology, they can become Western Rite Orthodox.

I do not think it's that easy.
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2016, 10:32:46 AM »
If an Anglo-Catholic church wants to keep its Western forms of worship in general ways and still join Orthodoxy's communion and agree with Orthodox theology, they can become Western Rite Orthodox.

I do not think it's that easy.
There are Anglican parishes that joined Orthodoxy's communion by being a subgroup of ROCOR or the Antiochians, while accepting Orthodox theology and practicing the Western Rite. I invite you to the Western Rite section to discuss this more.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 10:33:57 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2016, 06:32:11 PM »
Take it down to a simmer, everyone.  Join the OCA.
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Offline mike

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2016, 12:01:23 AM »
If an Anglo-Catholic church wants to keep its Western forms of worship in general ways and still join Orthodoxy's communion and agree with Orthodox theology, they can become Western Rite Orthodox.

I do not think it's that easy.
There are Anglican parishes that joined Orthodoxy's communion by being a subgroup of ROCOR or the Antiochians, while accepting Orthodox theology and practicing the Western Rite. I invite you to the Western Rite section to discuss this more.

And ROCOR has already been canceling its WR because it's not that easy as you say.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2016, 12:28:22 AM »
Antiochians haven't canceled it. HaS Rocor actually done so or said it will?
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2016, 10:08:21 AM »
Antiochians haven't canceled it. HaS Rocor actually done so or said it will?

No. They did issue a very discouraging statement that was easy to interpret that way. The intention doesn't seem though to actually abolish it.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2016, 11:03:58 AM »
Antiochians haven't canceled it. HaS Rocor actually done so or said it will?

No. They did issue a very discouraging statement that was easy to interpret that way. The intention doesn't seem though to actually abolish it.

More like let it wither on the vine. Abolition by atrophy.

The ROCOR experiment was poorly implemented. The Antiochians at least vetted potential WRO mass conversions.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2016, 11:33:03 AM »
Antiochians haven't canceled it. HaS Rocor actually done so or said it will?

No. They did issue a very discouraging statement that was easy to interpret that way. The intention doesn't seem though to actually abolish it.

More like let it wither on the vine. Abolition by atrophy.

Probably, but that makes the recent attempted conversion of the "Catholic Church of the East" rather puzzling.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Agabus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2016, 12:55:59 PM »
Antiochians haven't canceled it. HaS Rocor actually done so or said it will?

No. They did issue a very discouraging statement that was easy to interpret that way. The intention doesn't seem though to actually abolish it.

More like let it wither on the vine. Abolition by atrophy.

Probably, but that makes the recent attempted conversion of the "Catholic Church of the East" rather puzzling.

Old habits die hard? One last roll of the dice to see if their luck turned around?

I really am OK with mass conversions, etc., but the rush to put chrism on entire ecclesiastical communities (which all seem to hang on the strong personality of a given pastor) in a matter of months rather than waiting a year (or two, or three) appears to be at the heart of the issue.

Despite a few notable successes, folks simply declaring, "We're Orthodox now," tends to end with folks not being Orthodox very long — if, in fact, they ever truly were.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 12:59:12 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH