Author Topic: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?  (Read 5505 times)

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Offline Diego

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Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« on: September 01, 2016, 10:15:43 PM »
Hey all:

New member here. Thought I would post. I have a beef, of sorts. Not with Orthodoxy. But just in general with people's (any people, people in general), view of things.

First you have people who have the idea that the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are in some way more Catholic than the rest of us. I guess to a degree one can almost acknowledge that. None of them have been influenced by the Protestant Reformation in any sense.

But where my REAL beef comes in is when Roman Catholics designate Anglicans as "more Catholic than Lutherans." That is infuriating. EVERY single Lutheran I have ever met believes in an OBJECTIVE Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is no question that the Consecrated Elements ARE the Body and Blood of Christ. Whether you believe it or not is not relevant.

Anglicanism, on the other hand, and I was raised both Roman Catholic and Anglican, and Anglicanism is what stuck, has everything from the most Anglo-Catholic Transubstantiationist to the Lowest Church Receptionist. Furthermore, the 3rd Paragraph of Article XXVIII "Of the Lord's Supper says, "The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, onlyh after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received in the Supper, is Faith."

So, when I hear Catholics, particularly the more liberal ones,talk about how Anglicanism is more Catholic than Lutheranism, I get a little fried. In fact, I recall, when I was a good Anglican, I knew a young lady, a Low Church Anglican, basically a Presbyterian with a Prayer Prayer Book, quite a pretty thing too, didn't know if she believed in the Real Presence, because Jesus said, "Take and eat, this is my body", but he also said, "Do this in memory of me."

I realise that there are issues over the fact that some Lutherans don't have Bishops, and some do. Of course, some answer that by saying what Luther said, that Episkopoi and Presbyteroi were one office in the Early Church. Some LCMS clergy and members like to say that our Pastors are all Bishops. I don't know if I would go that far. But I am bothered by the fact that someone who theoretically depends on subjectivists ideas about the Eucharistic Feast can be considered more Catholic than me.




Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 10:39:21 PM »
I will let someone more wise answer. I just want to say Welcome, you seem new here.


OK I mean this in a non-serious manner but is this a tag match? We will just tag you guys in when the Catholics decide to get all Traddy,  :laugh: I joke
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 10:40:24 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 10:43:17 PM »
Thank you for the welcome. I am indeed new here. That is most kind.

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 11:47:24 PM »
I don't get it. Is this a competition to find out who's more "catholic"? And what do you mean by this term?
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2016, 12:41:29 AM »
EVERY single Lutheran I have ever met believes in an OBJECTIVE Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is no question that the Consecrated Elements ARE the Body and Blood of Christ. Whether you believe it or not is not relevant.

Welcome, Diego, and thanks for an interesting post.

I found what you said about Lutherans a bit puzzling. I remember being told at a Missouri Synod Lutheran church my college roommate and I visited a couple Sundays that the communion elements were the real presence of Christ, which is in line with what you wrote. But I don't think this was the case in the Lutheran church I attended with my grandparents when visiting them. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of that Lutheran group, but it was formed when many of the immigrant Lutheran churches merged (my grandmother grew up Augustina (spelling?) Lutheran, the Swedish immigrant Lutheran church in the US at the time), and I believe this merged group may be the largest Lutheran church in the US today.

Of course this was all almost 50 years ago so my memory may be faulty. But the facts about the Eucharist should be easy to check.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 12:44:07 AM by FinnJames »

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2016, 12:46:47 AM »
SVARTZORN, I think you are missing the point of the question. I find it important because being designated a Protestant w/o qualifying that is offensive. We even count the 10 Commandments the same way Rome does, Exodus style, unlike Protestants, who use Deuteronomy. What do I mean by the Church Catholick, spelling it in the old English style deliberately? What I mean is that we defend & keep the Holy Mass, as stated in the Augsburg Confession. We believe in the Real Presence as an objective reality. We maintain the Three Ecumenical Creeds. We never had the Calvinistic crusades of Oliver Cromwell destroy our churches. England had to rebuild the statues. We never lost them except in the States. & that's only because we chose to ape what the Protestants were doing. So my point is, no, its not a contest. Its a genuine reality. Catholicism is alive & well in Lutheran Churches more than in Anglican Churches. Now, granted, a lot of Lutherans have gotten weird, like ELCA, & started ordaining women & gays, (CONT)

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2016, 12:58:33 AM »
(I don't think you need to split your posts, since the site doesn't seem to have a character limit).

I think it's a question you rather discuss with latins. As an orthodox I don't see that much relevance in who's keeping what among catholics and protestants.
But I do have the feeling - by knowing little - that lutherans seem to have some more sense than evangelicals, for instance.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2016, 12:59:12 AM »
(CONT from prev.) but there are still plenty of Lutheran Churches that hold FIRMLY to the Bible & the Confessions. To answer your question, FINNJAMES, yes, the Swedes did believe in the Real Presence. The ELCA here & the Svenska Kyrkan there have gotten weird morally, sadly enough. The LCMS does indeed believe in the Real Presence. I am LCMS myself. Also, friends, do pardon multiple posts. On my computer its not needed. But on my dumbphone there is a space limitation. So I can only write so much, & use symbols like "&". Then I must continue the post. Thanks for your patience.

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2016, 01:04:28 AM »
SVARTZORN, the full site has no limitation. But the WAP2 Interface for dumbphones does.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2016, 01:07:03 AM »
I believe Calvinist influences creeped into Lutheranisn during 19th century in the form of Pietism which explains (AFAIK) widespread idea of Eucharist being only a symbol.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2016, 02:41:32 AM »
I believe Calvinist influences creeped into Lutheranisn during 19th century in the form of Pietism which explains (AFAIK) widespread idea of Eucharist being only a symbol.

The point I am attempting to make is that, although the Pietism did exist, with its more Low Church concepts, it was never able to eliminate the belief in an objective Real Presence. The Confessions contained in the Book of Concord were a certainty against that happening. I know of only a TINY number of Lutheran Churches wherein any kind of Receptionism is taught, and they are all fairly small Churches at that. Their relevance to mainline Lutheranism is rather... pointless.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2016, 03:14:36 AM »
No idea about North America but in Finland (where ~95% of the population are Lutherans) I don't think too many understand that officially speaking according to their church bread and wine are body and blood. I believe that includes many church-going people too.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2016, 06:25:52 AM »
Welcome Diego,

Sooooooo....let me see if I understand you.   Being "Catholic" in your view ? is a product of believing in the real presence of Christ?

This is what makes one a "Catholic?"

You tangentially reference Bishops and adherence to creeds of at least Three Ecumenical Councils.

So what makes a person "Catholic?"   This is the question.   Each of the traditions you have pointed to has a different understanding of what it is to be "Catholic."

I will not at this point elucidate the EO understanding of being "Catholic."   But you must first clearly define what you believe to be the criteria for Catholicity.   

Am I to understand you believe Catholicity is a function of belief in the Real Presence in the same manner that a Roman Catholic would understand Catholicity to be a function of allegiance to a "vicar" of Christ in the Pope?

God bless and welcome to OC.Net.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 06:26:11 AM by Onesimus »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2016, 08:16:42 AM »
I believe Calvinist influences creeped into Lutheranisn during 19th century in the form of Pietism which explains (AFAIK) widespread idea of Eucharist being only a symbol.

This is a good point, there was also the union of 1817 when the Lutheran Church in Germany were forced to merge with the Reformed Church, which allowed Calvinist ideas to creep in that way too, especially in the seminaries.

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2016, 04:56:11 PM »
SEEKER, I would not identify the German United Church as Lutheran after the merger. In fact, said merger is largely what brought about the immigration of the Germans to the USA that created the MO Synod. As for Catholicity, I identify it as any Church that maintains the three Creeds (or less in the case of the Assyrian Church & the Oriental Orthodox), has valid clergy, & orthodox belief.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2016, 05:16:52 PM »
Sola Scriptura is in no way orthodox belief, so I guess you're out   :police:
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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 10:39:26 PM »
Sola Scriptura is in no way orthodox belief, so I guess you're out   :police:

I would disagree with that statement MOST profoundly, as long as Grace Alone, Faith Alone, and Scripture Alone are understood correctly. Which I think they are often NOT, by both Roman Catholic AND Protestant, and, so it would appear, Orthodox.  :police:

Allow me to elucidate. Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture. It is subordinate to Scripture. But that in no way means it doesn't have a right to exist. I hear so many Protestants criticise Lutherans for having a Liturgy. "Why, that is too Catholic!" we get told. Well, what the heck does that mean, I ask. Celebrating the Lord's Supper (which term I don't really like, I prefer "Divine Service", but I shall employ it for now) is too Catholic? I don't know, our Lord Himself did it! Was he "too Catholic"?

Martin Luther had no desire to start a new church. When he posted his 95 Theses to the church door in Wittenburg, the goal was to debate a few things get a few abuses resolved, and be done with it. And if you look at LCMS, that's pretty much what we have done. Now, there are some parishes that are more spare than others. But overall, what you have is a very spare Catholicism.

You look at the Calvinists, now. They take Sola Scriptura to its utmost. Tradition doesn't exist in their understanding. They try to go back to a NT Church, which is kind of funny, since the Church existed BEFORE the NT did, and GAVE us the NT. And then they have this bizzarre Double Predestination, that frankly, had I been born and raised up with, would absolutely terrify me.

But Sola Scriptura simply reassures me that all traditions will either (1) have a basis in Scripture, or (2) at least not be flatly contradicted by Scripture. It's really not as hard to handle when looked at in the right sense.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2016, 12:49:07 AM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2016, 03:03:07 AM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?
It doesn't, because:

the Church existed BEFORE the NT did, and GAVE us the NT

Anyway, welcome to the forum, Diego, I hope you can stay for coffee hour.  ;)
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2016, 03:18:08 AM »
Scripture alone, faith alone, grace alone...
Well, which one is it?
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Offline ttcmacro

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2016, 04:20:10 AM »
Welcome Diego!  As someone who was in the LCMS before becoming Orthodox, I find your comments quite interesting.

While I'm not a theologian by any stretch, I believe that that the LCMS and the Orthodox view of the Eucharist are very similar, if not functionally the same. When I was LCMS, it was a clear part of the teaching that the Eucharist contained the real presence of Christ. Before becoming LCMS, I flirted with Anglicanism (Episcopal technically) for a while, and at least in the parishes I went to, the teaching on the Eucharist was "fuzzy" to say the least. So while obviously LCMS, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox teachings diverge on some major points, I'm not sure the Eucharist is really one of them. The main difference would seem to be who is qualified to preside over the Eucharist. For Orthodox and Roman Catholics, it is a priest ordained by a bishop in apostolic succession from the apostles. On a side note, I find it interesting that you find that Roman Catholics view Anglicans as more Catholic than Lutherans. I believe all Anglican churches have bishops in apostolic succession, but the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Anglican church does not have valid orders- hence their bishops are not really bishops, and their sacraments are not valid. So it would seem to me that Anglicans are not really "more Catholic" than the LCMS from a Roman Catholic perspective :o.

I found your comment on tradition interesting, and the LCMS and Orthodox teaching are somewhat different here. In Orthodoxy, Scripture is a part of the tradition (a VERY important part), but is not the entire tradition. The tradition also includes the liturgy, iconography, other non-canonical early Christian writings, writings of the church fathers, writings of the saints, the creeds, etc.
Just the other day I was reading how many Calvinist reject the idea that Jesus descend into the hell (the harrowing of hell) because they don't believe there is Scriptural support for it. However, from the Orthodox view this was clearly a true event- it is part of the Creed and it is mentioned in a number of early Christian writings.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 04:23:07 AM by ttcmacro »

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2016, 07:13:25 AM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?

None needed. Its reality. If it were not for Scripture, we would not have anything, not even the basics. For example, the Moral Law is of Moses. It was recorded in Scripture. Ergo, without it, where would the morals of the human race been without Scripture?

SVARTZORN, PLEASE do not ask silly questions.It is all three, the which answer you knew perfectly well. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Scripture Alone. They are all linked. TTMACRO, I think you are right, but keep in mind that we belive that Christ went down into hell also.

RAPHACAM, as far as Tradition coming from Scripture, in a sense I see your point. And insofar as it doesn't violate Scripture, I've no problem with it. To me, it doesn't have to be explicitly endorsed by them to be ok.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 07:14:53 AM by Diego »

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2016, 07:40:50 AM »
None needed. Its reality. If it were not for Scripture, we would not have anything, not even the basics. For example, the Moral Law is of Moses. It was recorded in Scripture. Ergo, without it, where would the morals of the human race been without Scripture?

That would mean set, Noah, Melchisedek or Abraham were people without morals.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2016, 08:15:41 AM »
Well, you have a point there. But, before the Law of Moses, God provided for his people in other ways. And I shall grant that even under the Law, I am sure the non-Hebrews had codes to keep them in basic honesty, albeit they were not the Chosen People. And since the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, all men are called to live the Gospel. Note, I said "All men are called to live the Gospel." We are all called to be His.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2016, 08:34:42 AM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?

None needed. Its reality. If it were not for Scripture, we would not have anything, not even the basics. For example, the Moral Law is of Moses. It was recorded in Scripture. Ergo, without it, where would the morals of the human race been without Scripture?

Diego,

Not so.  We would have the Holy Spirit.   We would have the Church within whom the Spirit indwells.  That is reality.   You see that the Spirit does not simply indwell the Scriptures....but people.   The Scriptures must be read by the Spirit in the Church.   They cannot be objectively read as if they are embodied truth, the Truth Himself indwelling the whole of the Church bound in conciliar Love gives them life...they do not give the Church life.   It is not true to say that if we did not have the Scriptures we would have nothing.   But it matters little...we do have the Scriptures (thank God!)   For the Orthodox, Scripture is nothing but written Tradition, and Tradition is nothing but living Scripture.   But none of these can be made manifest in the Church if it does not subsist in Love.   Love does not separate itself from others.   Rome showed no Love, and broke with the rest of the Church, quenching the Spirit.   The poor sons of the Roman Church, the Protestants simply continued down the same path...walking in disorder. (from an Orthodox perspective...please don't take this personally...it is our understanding of the unity of faith as inseparable from the Gospel...it is not about you as a person.)

This is made manifest in the witness of the Apostles, to wit;

Quote
"You yourselves are our letter, inscribed on our hearts, known and read by everyone. It is manifest that you are epistles of Christ, ...written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.…

Quote
"You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.…"

It is the Church - and not Scripture alone - which is the "pillar and ground of Truth."  1 Tim 3:15.  For the Church is the Body of Christ indwelt by the Spirit.   The Scriptures testify to Christ and the Church IN Him...the Scriptures do not simply testify to the Scriptures.

There is a lot we could and should talk about in this regard.   But I am short on time.

Here is the issue we run into.   Neither Scripture or Tradition speak of Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide.   In fact, Scripture and Tradition militate directly against both explicitly.   

Now, as a long time Protestant I am sympathetic to the issues which prompted the Reformation.   But the fact...and it is a fact...remains that Sola Scriptura is a philosophy of men.  It is found neither in Scripture or Tradition and therefore, by your own criterion (not ours) cannot be true.

Regardless of that fact...we Love you and are glad to have you engage and try to understand the Orthodox faith.   Please ask questions, try to understand the Orthodox faith.   I understand you are convinced of certain things.   So be it.   It is not within our power to convince you otherwise.  Only the Spirit can "grant the increase."   

But since you are here...on an Orthodox forum..please take the time to learn from our side.   It is a place to learn about Orthodoxy.   If we want to learn about Lutheranism, we will go to a Lutheran chat board.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 08:39:44 AM by Onesimus »

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2016, 10:18:17 AM »
Beautifully put, Onesimus. 
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2016, 10:41:27 AM »
Quote
"And insofar as it doesn't violate Scripture, I've no problem with it.

So you mean to tell me that if Scripture explicitly says - more than once - that justification is NOT by faith alone -- and yet a group of Christians holds as the cornerstone of their evangelical teachings that justification is by faith alone, I should conclude that their teachings violate Scripture? 

Hmmmm.  That's interesting.  I'd have to agree.

Quote
Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.   So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,x, y and he was called God’s friend.  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Quote
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Love, I am nothing.And now abideth faith, hope, and Love, these three; but the greatest of these is Love.

So which is greater....faith or Love?   How can Paul state that a person with "all faith" is nothing if "sola fide" is true?   That person should be justified by faith!   But Paul says they are not.   They are nothing.

Love is greater than faith...and faith is only faith when it is "working through Love."

One cannot separate themselves from the rest of the Church and teach contrary to the Spirit of Love in Her and have faith working in love.   One cannot teach that we are justified by "faith alone" when the Scriptures say that we are "not justified by faith alone" and that if one has "all faith, but hath not love"... they are "nothing."   One cannot teach by "faith alone" if love is "greater" than faith.  One might be able to teach "love alone" or "faith, hope and love...these three alone...but love is the greatest"...but they cannot teach by "faith alone."    It violates Scripture.

I shudder at my own failings in this regard.   I am no better than you...probably much worse as a person.  But the Church has always taught faithfully the truth that Scripture and Tradition witness to...that man is "NOT justified by faith alone."   

I understand that you may reference Ephesians 2 - and yet, for us - Ephesians 2 is completely consistent with the rest of the witness of Scripture.   
Quote

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

This is our calling.   

Yet, your community teaches otherwise and has separated itself from us.   Why?  We are saddened by this separation over a teaching contradicted by the witness of Scripture.  But we still Love you and hope for your reunion to the Body.   

God bless you Diego.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 10:49:45 AM by Onesimus »

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2016, 11:05:54 AM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?

None needed. Its reality.

IOW, your tradition. 

Quote
If it were not for Scripture, we would not have anything, not even the basics.

Romans 1.18-20 appears to disagree. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2016, 12:02:06 PM »




SVARTZORN, PLEASE do not ask silly questions.It is all three, the which answer you knew perfectly well. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Scripture Alone. They are all linked.

(...)

If it's all three there's no need to use the word "alone" (sola)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2016, 12:25:15 PM »
Hey all:

New member here. Thought I would post. I have a beef, of sorts. Not with Orthodoxy. But just in general with people's (any people, people in general), view of things.

First you have people who have the idea that the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are in some way more Catholic than the rest of us. I guess to a degree one can almost acknowledge that. None of them have been influenced by the Protestant Reformation in any sense.
Actually, the Vatican and the PNCC have been formed by the Protest Reformation, the Vatican we today being formed in the Counter-Reformation.

But where my REAL beef comes in is when Roman Catholics designate Anglicans as "more Catholic than Lutherans." That is infuriating. EVERY single Lutheran I have ever met believes in an OBJECTIVE Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is no question that the Consecrated Elements ARE the Body and Blood of Christ. Whether you believe it or not is not relevant.

Anglicanism, on the other hand, and I was raised both Roman Catholic and Anglican, and Anglicanism is what stuck, has everything from the most Anglo-Catholic Transubstantiationist to the Lowest Church Receptionist. Furthermore, the 3rd Paragraph of Article XXVIII "Of the Lord's Supper says, "The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, onlyh after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received in the Supper, is Faith."

So, when I hear Catholics, particularly the more liberal ones,talk about how Anglicanism is more Catholic than Lutheranism, I get a little fried. In fact, I recall, when I was a good Anglican, I knew a young lady, a Low Church Anglican, basically a Presbyterian with a Prayer Prayer Book, quite a pretty thing too, didn't know if she believed in the Real Presence, because Jesus said, "Take and eat, this is my body", but he also said, "Do this in memory of me."

I realise that there are issues over the fact that some Lutherans don't have Bishops, and some do. Of course, some answer that by saying what Luther said, that Episkopoi and Presbyteroi were one office in the Early Church. Some LCMS clergy and members like to say that our Pastors are all Bishops. I don't know if I would go that far. But I am bothered by the fact that someone who theoretically depends on subjectivists ideas about the Eucharistic Feast can be considered more Catholic than me.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2016, 12:27:26 PM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?

None needed. Its reality. If it were not for Scripture, we would not have anything, not even the basics. For example, the Moral Law is of Moses. It was recorded in Scripture. Ergo, without it, where would the morals of the human race been without Scripture?

SVARTZORN, PLEASE do not ask silly questions.It is all three, the which answer you knew perfectly well. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Scripture Alone. They are all linked. TTMACRO, I think you are right, but keep in mind that we belive that Christ went down into hell also.

RAPHACAM, as far as Tradition coming from Scripture, in a sense I see your point. And insofar as it doesn't violate Scripture, I've no problem with it. To me, it doesn't have to be explicitly endorsed by them to be ok.
Scripture comes from Tradition. Not the reverse. Scripture itself shows so. It was passes on for centuries before Moses, and formed the Church decades before the first Gospel or Epistle was written.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2016, 12:57:11 PM »
Where does  Tradition come from? Well, Scripture.

Citation?

None needed. Its reality. If it were not for Scripture, we would not have anything, not even the basics. For example, the Moral Law is of Moses. It was recorded in Scripture. Ergo, without it, where would the morals of the human race been without Scripture?

SVARTZORN, PLEASE do not ask silly questions.It is all three, the which answer you knew perfectly well. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, in Scripture Alone. They are all linked. TTMACRO, I think you are right, but keep in mind that we belive that Christ went down into hell also.

RAPHACAM, as far as Tradition coming from Scripture, in a sense I see your point. And insofar as it doesn't violate Scripture, I've no problem with it. To me, it doesn't have to be explicitly endorsed by them to be ok.
Scripture comes from Tradition. Not the reverse. Scripture itself shows so. It was passes on for centuries before Moses, and formed the Church decades before the first Gospel or Epistle was written.

Actually, you have just made my point. If Scripture formed the Church (ie, the Old Testament), then in a way, the NT was written in such a manner as not to contradict it, and, and the Church was born with the of the OT and used the OT as Scripture, and gave us the NT, as did the OT.

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2016, 01:10:04 PM »
But since you are here...on an Orthodox forum..please take the time to learn from our side.   It is a place to learn about Orthodoxy.   If we want to learn about Lutheranism, we will go to a Lutheran chat board.

ONESIMUS, greeting:

I am more than happy to learn about Orthodoxy. However, here, on this section of the board, is a place to discuss Orthodox-Other Christian Relations. I believe it is necessary to have such chatting as we are having now. I also know that there are sections of the board where such chatting is NOT encouraged, and I won't do it there. Such areas are for strictly learning about Orthodoxy.

Please note that I have already sided with Orthodoxy once in the argument on the question of the Bishop of Rome having jurisdiction over all other Bishops. I am not inherently anti-Orthodox by ANY stretch of the imagination. But, be that as it may, I am glad to be here.


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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2016, 01:34:56 PM »

Actually, you have just made my point. If Scripture formed the Church (ie, the Old Testament), then in a way, the NT was written in such a manner as not to contradict it, and, and the Church was born with the of the OT and used the OT as Scripture, and gave us the NT, as did the OT.

Probably the reason why it was deemed a curse and must be read under the careful scrutiny of the Fathers and the NT.
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Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2016, 01:40:19 PM »

Actually, you have just made my point. If Scripture formed the Church (ie, the Old Testament), then in a way, the NT was written in such a manner as not to contradict it, and, and the Church was born with the of the OT and used the OT as Scripture, and gave us the NT, as did the OT.

Probably the reason why it was deemed a curse and must be read under the careful scrutiny of the Fathers and the NT.

That sounds decidedly odd. I agree that all Scripture should be read in light of itself and with the Church Fathers (and with the Reformers even), but calling the OT a curse is a bit odd.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2016, 02:54:54 PM »

Actually, you have just made my point. If Scripture formed the Church (ie, the Old Testament), then in a way, the NT was written in such a manner as not to contradict it, and, and the Church was born with the of the OT and used the OT as Scripture, and gave us the NT, as did the OT.

Probably the reason why it was deemed a curse and must be read under the careful scrutiny of the Fathers and the NT.

That sounds decidedly odd. I agree that all Scripture should be read in light of itself and with the Church Fathers (and with the Reformers even), but calling the OT a curse is a bit odd.

I have never seen the Old Testament referred to as that either. And obviously there are OT readings, commentaries, and references, both liturgical and other, within the Orthodox Church. Perhaps Svartzorn can clarify his meaning.
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2016, 03:12:49 PM »
I may be wrong, but I came up with this when reading the pauline epistles, specially Galatians 3:10.
St. John Chrysostom gives a better insight, anyhow:

(...)

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse."

This is what he lays down, before proving it; and what is the proof? It is from the Law itself:—

Ver. 10, 11. "For it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the Law to do them. Now that no man is justified by the Law is evident."

For all have sinned, and are under the curse. However he does not say this yet, lest he should seem to lay it down of himself, but here again establishes his point by a text which concisely states both points; that no man has fulfilled the Law, (wherefore they are under the curse,) and, that Faith justifies. What then is the text? It is in the book of the prophet Habakkuk, "The just shall live by faith," Habakkuk 2:4 which not only establishes the righteousness that is of Faith, but also that there is no salvation through the Law. As no one, he says, kept the Law, but all were under the curse, on account of transgression, an easy way was provided, that from Faith, which is in itself a strong proof that no man can be justified by the Law. For the prophet says not, "The just shall live by the Law," but, "by faith:"


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm

It also reads, from the same page:

For the Law requires not only Faith but works also, but grace saves and justifies by Faith. Ephesians 2:8

You see how he proves that they are under the curse who cleave to the Law, because it is impossible to fulfill it; next, how comes Faith to have this justifying power? For to this doctrine he already stood pledged, and now maintains it with great force of argument. The Law being too weak to lead man to righteousness, an effectual remedy was provided in Faith, which is the means of rendering that possible which was "impossible by the Law." Romans 8:3 Now as the Scripture says, "the just shall live by faith," thus repudiating salvation by the Law, and moreover as Abraham was justified by Faith, it is evident that its efficacy is very great.


Again, I may be wrong, and such passages regarding the Law as a curse, unfulfilling and incomplete were always a puzzle to me.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2016, 03:33:55 PM »
I think he is speaking of the OT Torah (Law) as a curse, which Paul speaks of in Galatians.   

The Law is set before both the OT church and the NT church as BOTH a blessing and a curse.  See deut 11:26 and deut 30:19 etc.   The Torah was set as a "guardian "against an obstinate people and was either life or death....a blessing or a curse...at the same time.   It depended on their choice.

Christ Himself is the True Law (culmination, Fullfillment, completion).   He now stands as the definitive embodiment of the Law of Love, the cornerstone by which all will be judged.  The 10 commandments were a shadow (foreshadowing) and pointer to Him.

The - commandments were given...and then destroyed in wrath.   They were then reissued and Only then did the "Law" with all its ordinances get added to it get established in order to be a "guardian" for hard hearted Israel.   Those ordinances were a curse to a disobedient nation worshiping the golden calf and it required them to constantly slaughter the embodiments of Egyptian deities by immolation animals worshiped by Egypt so that they were constantly killing the very image of idols.  Since they could not take the "light yolk" of the 10 commandments, God cursed them with statutes and ordinances that weighed them down.   The "curse" does not refer to the 10 commandments per se, though there is something to be said about that in nuance.  It refers to the works that Israel constantly had to do to reign in their disobenient nature.   And still it did not work.   The ordinances became the focus instead of the reason they had to do them in the first place; I.e. Idolatry.  Soon they believed the ordinances saved them instead of being a punishment.

This is a very misunderstood and difficult aspect of Scripture, but one that when it clicks is pretty amazing.  The Law and Christ Himself  always represents both the promise of blessing or curse....a life filled with His presence, or devoid of it.   The True Law Hismelf never changes....He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.   only we change in relationship to the incarnated Law - the Logos.  He becomes the rock we break ourselves against...the judge.  He cancels the curse of the Law and its ordinances by becoming a curse.   In so doing He also shows himself to be the True Law.

The bottom line is the OT Law (Not the 10 commandments - but all the regulations added to it because of hard heartedness) were a curse on the people for worshipping the Golden calf.    Christ takes the curse upon Himself and pours out His Spirit on all flesh, stopping the need for an external guardian and allowing those who call on His Spirit to have the "law written on their hearts."  That's the short version.   There's much more to it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 03:44:49 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2016, 03:45:20 PM »
ONESIMUS, I think you are right. But that would not make the Old Testament itself a curse. Certainly the Law, and living under it, is a curse. And trying to survive the 613 Commandments of the would indeed be a Curse, and Christ did come to save us all from that Curse. So it is indeed a blessing and a curse.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2016, 03:52:55 PM »
St. Paul is not speaking only of Jewish law, but of man's need for law of any kind. Man is cursed by death and damnation and the difficulty of living -- yet he is really cursed by what leads to these ends -- which is his inability to keep himself from error and sin. The law is written to protect and separate man from his error -- yet the law is itself in error, especially in individual cases -- and the law does not succeed in restoring divine ability to man. It is a curse upon a curse, in other words -- meant as a cure, but in many ways only compounding the intractable underlying problem. But, as St. Paul also says in the same letter, law is the best man can do -- if it could save us, it would have. The passage can also be read as saying Holy Moses' law was the best man can do, and would have saved if any law could.

St. Paul in another epistle also speaks of law as blinding, poisoning, death-dealing. "Until this day remaineth the veil" on the mind's-eye that the Law brought. Only "in Christ" "the veil is done away." Only by the Spirit is the killing nature of Law made a contributing part of new life. (See II Cor 3.)
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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2016, 03:59:26 PM »
Indeed. To quote our Luther, "This is most certainly true."  I think it fair to say that Martin Luther was very strong on the inability of the Law to save. Any law, the Jewish Law or otherwise. And it played very strongly into my conversion.

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2016, 04:01:26 PM »
Actually, you have just made my point. If Scripture formed the Church (ie, the Old Testament), then in a way, the NT was written in such a manner as not to contradict it, and, and the Church was born with the of the OT and used the OT as Scripture, and gave us the NT, as did the OT.

No. Christ taught and the Apostles wrote what is eternally true in Heaven. They referred to the Prophets and Psalms where it was fitting. But there was no scheme to write new scripture a certain way that would create a dependence on the Hebrew scriptures.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2016, 04:03:17 PM »
Indeed. To quote our Luther, "This is most certainly true."  I think it fair to say that Martin Luther was very strong on the inability of the Law to save. Any law, the Jewish Law or otherwise. And it played very strongly into my conversion.

Dr. Luther said a great many things. A rebellious and restless mind unafraid to expose its own vagaries in thousands of books and sermons.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2016, 04:06:53 PM »
Truth.     :)

One thing...the Law is Holy and Good says Paul.   We must understand that what brings death is not the law which is good....but our inability to take hold of what is good and make it our own.  Just as in the Garden.  The tree is good.  So is the law.   But both are objects of wrath to the disobenient.    without God's grace and Spirit we are helpless...The Law is powerless only because until God becomes flesh We are powerless in the face of death which drives us to sin and Slavery out of fear.   The law is holy and good, and is meant to bring life, but it can't because of us.   So God becomes us, and changes our ability to respond to His commandments.  What we cannot do, he offers us as a gift to receive and particpte in.    His commandments are no on get burdensome but become light.   The Spirit makes this so.   But we can still quench the Spirit.   I know I often do.    :'(

« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 04:10:21 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Diego

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Re: Lutheranism and Orthodoxy v. Catholicism and/or Anglicanism?
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2016, 04:08:48 PM »
Actually, you have just made my point. If Scripture formed the Church (ie, the Old Testament), then in a way, the NT was written in such a manner as not to contradict it, and, and the Church was born with the of the OT and used the OT as Scripture, and gave us the NT, as did the OT.

No. Christ taught and the Apostles wrote what is eternally true in Heaven. They referred to the Prophets and Psalms where it was fitting. But there was no scheme to write new scripture a certain way that would create a dependence on the Hebrew scriptures.

Well, I shall agree that they wrote what was true in Heaven. But it did not contradict the OT, because that was ALSO what was true in Heaven. I guess that creates a question of what comes first, chicken or egg. Obviously Heaven does. But God revealed to all the Holy Writers of the Bible the Truth. and HE knew that the New would not contradict the Old.

I will agree that Luther had a restless mind. I am not so sure that "rebellious" is a fair term. Perhaps "questing" might be more apropos.

Quote
One thing...the Law is Holy and Good says Paul.   We must understand that what brings death is not the law which is good....but our inability to take hold of what is good and make it our own.  Just as in the Garden.  The tree is good.  So is the law.   But both are objects of wrath to the disobenient.    without God's grace and Spirit we are helpless...The Law is powerless only because until God becomes flesh We are powerless in the face of death which rives us to sin and Slavery out of fear.   The law is holy and good, and is meant to bring life, but it can't because of us.   So God becomes us, and changes our ability to respond to His commandments.

I totally agree.