Author Topic: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome  (Read 55401 times)

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #585 on: September 12, 2016, 10:28:55 PM »
Mor,

What "good fruit" comes from homosexual relationships?

Why are you asking me?  It wasn't my claim. 

Quote
You seem to have gone all in to defend Iconodule and his traditional Orthodoxy at all cost, using the most convoluted logical contortions which defy an honest reading of his posts. This, in spite of his saying that the idea that homosexual acts are sinful was no longer "tenable".

Not true. 

Quote
You have sought to portray, what most of us understand as a pro-gay argument, rather as Orthodox.


Not true. 

Quote
How sad then that you don't extend the same charity to Father Trenham, who is an Orthodox priest in good standing and whom you know! You criticise him on numerous occasions in this thread.

What comments of mine do you have in mind?  Maybe we can let Iconodule answer for himself and I will answer for myself. 

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You don't criticise Iconodule at all.

Not true. 

Quote
What is the difference? Why the double standard?

There is none. 

Quote
I know your posturing has been good for generating theatre and hence the popularity of this thread. But can you honesty say that Christ's bride has been honoured in this thread?

I think some have honoured her, and some have not.  In the latter group, there are both "pro-gay" and "anti-gay" persons. 

Quote
And please, I don't doubt your faithfulness to Orthodoxy personally so enough of that silly canard of "So much for never having doubted my commitment to Church teaching".

How is it a canard?  It's the plain sense of your native English words.

Quote
You even seem to be almost convinced that homosexuality is condemned by Scripture although you leave that somewhat open for discussion: "Scripture seems to uphold a positive view of childbearing and childrearing.  It doesn't seem to hold a similar view about homosexuality."

It would be fairly stupid for anyone to claim that homosexual activity is "open for discussion" according to Scripture.  I have never suggested it was "open for discussion".  Not in this thread.  Not in any other thread.  That much is a settled matter and has been for a few thousand years. 

So what exactly about those two sentences is it that makes you think I believe the clear Scriptural condemnation of homosexual activity is open for discussion? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #586 on: September 12, 2016, 10:34:07 PM »
But I think the suspicion which abounds in this thread is a big problem.  You think I am lumping you in a group, others think they are being lumped into a group, direct questions about who is included in a certain group are met with "Do you want me to attack other members?" and "You're an observant dude", etc.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  But suspicion is basically the topic, so it's not surprising.
 

 :police:

Seriously, it was more of an expression of surprise than an accusation, Mr. Suspiciony... if that's even really your name.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #587 on: September 12, 2016, 11:36:22 PM »

1. Father Josiah does not often get the benefit of the doubt, even from the Moderators. In the quote above, the Moderator ruminates about how perhaps Father Josiah wanted to incite violence. Um, no, Orthodox priests don't generally want to incite violence. Is it too much just to assume that?


Did you give Father Robert Arida the benefit of the doubt? I do not recall it. A tiny little statement that you posted to that effect will do. I would like some reassurance that this is so.

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Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #588 on: September 13, 2016, 01:27:49 AM »

1. Father Josiah does not often get the benefit of the doubt, even from the Moderators. In the quote above, the Moderator ruminates about how perhaps Father Josiah wanted to incite violence. Um, no, Orthodox priests don't generally want to incite violence. Is it too much just to assume that?


Did you give Father Robert Arida the benefit of the doubt? I do not recall it. A tiny little statement that you posted to that effect will do. I would like some reassurance that this is so.

Absolutely. I assume all Orthodox and especially priests are Orthodox. When they give us reason to think they are not, especially in plain English, we should call them out.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #589 on: September 13, 2016, 01:37:57 AM »
Words mean things.   How you string your words together means things.  You've used the word "hate" - "self-absorbed" in contradiction to "sympathetic" and followed that up with an aspersion of enmity.   

You're psychoanalyzing and projecting.

Perhaps enmity is a poor choice of words.  It sure seems like you have many misgivings of the LGBT movement and choose to see the movement in somewhat adversarial terms.

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Having seen how you interpret Scriptural passages - it is indeed likely that you are suffering from some sort of significant impairment in this regard, only potentiated by your involvement in the ELCA. 

I reached my own resolution a long time ago. The ELCA has nothing to do with it.  I was just looking for a sacramental, liturgical church.  Despite all that has happened in my life, I still think Jesus matters.  Which is a miracle in its own right.

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Struggle and failure and temptation and falling into the sin of sodomy out of human weakness is not a grounds for exclusion, if one is struggling and fighting the fight.   But active intent (overt, covert or subvert) to participate in a lifestyle and to encourage the Church to embrace active homosexuality is. 

You seem to be focused on what people do an awful lot, rather than focusing on what they are

Quote
This entire discussion between two opposing sides is often unable to distinguish between working and dealing with persons and loving them in their particular circumstances

Exactly... being gay is part of some peoples "particular circumstances".  I will be frank, some of the Fathers, when they are speaking of acts interpreted as "homosexuality" do not seem to be speaking of an awareness of issues that affect the 21st century context of this discussion, the "particular circumstances" of actual gay people. 

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  intent upon "normalizing" promoting and teaching homosexuality 

Are most gay rights advocates actually doing this?  I think they are saying being gay is normal for gay people, not that being gay should be "promoted" to those who are not gay.  That's frankly a talking point of the culture wars that doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny.

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  Sometimes LOVE and compassion involves clear and open communication, including the open communication of defining sin as sin and proposing that repentance is necessary for communion. 

To which I can only think of the stern warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 18:6.  We are not talking about axe murderers here, and I find the comparison with heterosexual adultery incredible.  Especially in a Church that permits contraception and remarriage with economia.  What exactly is so hideous about gays that they don't deserve the same economia?
Why impose this austere monastic ideal on people least able to carry it?

Quote
The entire Protestant Reformation was made a reality through this very process of division and internal warfare that it finally sought the semblance of peace and the normalization of division and doctrinal and practical incoherence that is a faith without FULLNESS and content. 

Does anybody really have a perfect understanding of the Faith?

Quote
Its fruit becomes obvious...and its fruit is a continued acquiescence to active division and the scattering of the flock to be picked off by wolves who wish for both soul and body to be destroyed. 

I don't see unwavering traditionalism and triumphalism as a good response to western modernity.  We are all Protestants now, at least in the western world.  Nobody holds a gun to our head and tells us what to believe.  And we all have to give an account to God for our actions in this world.  "My pastor/priest said it was good" is not going to be a very good response.  God gave us individual minds and hearts for a reason.

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AND as part of that love PREACH AND EXPECT REPENTANCE (as a form of mutual edification) rather than simply drink in the lie that you cannot oppose a sinful lifestyle and also love a person. 

"Hey friend, let me help you remove that speck from your own eye", indeed.

In the west we had centuries of hellfire preachers and mendicant orders of all sorts doing the exact same thing you advise- preaching repentance in a legalistic fashion.  (And I really see the Orthodox "therapeutic" approach as potentially even more insidious if misused, for the worst things could be justified in the name of "doing this for your own good.  For many centuries serfs were also told that economic slavery was "for their own good" and that such a state of affairs was the "natural order").  This approach hasn't seen to make a dent in stemming the long-term tide of secularization.  Quite the opposite.  Now you think maybe the western experience might actually have some insight on this matter? 

Preaching repentance as a condition of grace is a heavy burden upon those who are wounded.  And many gay people are especially wounded (I don't live in San Francisco, I live in the Bible Belt where people are still kicked out on the street and bullied for being gay or transgender).   I think it is rather a matter of many people that need to first approach gays and ask the gay brother to remove the speck from their eyes.   Pope Francis is at least starting to do the right thing in this matter by apologizing to the gay community.
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Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #590 on: September 13, 2016, 01:55:58 AM »
As usual, we need to use our two-pronged strategy for whenever any priest speaks ill of homosexuality: attack and redefine.

1. Attack the person. We need to inundate this thread with personal attacks on the character of Father Trenham. No need to provide any fact-base for our assertions. Don't worry: we've got some of the cops on our payroll. The point here is to cast aspersions on the character of anybody that teaches traditional Orthodox sexuality. It will be insane!;

2. Redefine the subject.  Remember what Saul Alinsky has taught us:
I. Phase I. Change the subject. Complain about how the Church talks too much about sex.
II. Phase II. "Deemphasise" the subject. We acknowledge the sin of homosexuality, but talk about how it shouldn't be a priority of the Church.
III. Phase III. Redefine the subject. We reject the notion that homosexuality should be condemned. We refer a lot to how the Early Church condemned contraception and divorce as well. We talk from experience how homosexuality is actually a blessed thing.

Now go phase III: talk from personal experience. It will be fabulous.



June 5 (Day 157, Zebulun): The Sun's corona was darkened by a massive hole between May 17 and 19, 2016.  Coronal holes are low-density regions in the Sun's atmosphere (the corona).  Coronal holes, which are detected by NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory, are visible in extreme ultraviolet light (shown in purple in the image) .  Coronal holes cause solar winds of particles that can affect satellites around the Earth and cause auroras, or Northern and Southern Lights.

Although the dark hole on the Sun was not visible to the eye, it did darken a large part of the corona.  This is a spiritual sign of doom, like the Sun being darkened prior to the Second Advent (Is 13:10; Joel 2:10, 31; 3:15; Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24, Rev 6:12).  The Second Advent will be doomsday.  Most of the Earth's population will be destroyed.  Then the Earth will be purged with fire to prepare it for the Millennium.

Conclusion
The massive hole in the Sun's corona symbolized doom although not likely on the massive scale of the Second Advent.  It was, however, a sign of doom in that Satan had engineered a major disaster by destroying the US military with the Prostitute of Babylon.  The dark hole in the Sun's corona symbolized the curse of the US military after Satan's attack on it.

Satan has attacked the US military with the same method as Balaam with the Prostitute of Babylon.  Satan sent the Midianite women into the camp of Israel to lure the men into idolatry with the Prostitute of Babylon (Baal).  Satan sent women into the US military with the full support of the women in Congress for the same reason.  Then Satan sent homosexuals into the military with support from their friends in government.  Satan secured the appointment and confirmation of Eric Fanning as Secretary of the Army to destroy the military, not by war but by sexual perversion.

http://biblenews1.com/history16/20160605sun.htm
Fabulous!

Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #591 on: September 13, 2016, 02:39:54 AM »
Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!
Nobody is talking about flat earths. But plans and tactics have been brought to light.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #592 on: September 13, 2016, 02:46:26 AM »
Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!
Nobody is talking about flat earths. But plans and tactics have been brought to light.
Good show! Phase III boys! Keep it coming. We need to trivialise the so-called "sin" of sodomy.

Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #593 on: September 13, 2016, 03:35:56 AM »
Mor,

What "good fruit" comes from homosexual relationships?

Why are you asking me?  It wasn't my claim. 

Quote
You seem to have gone all in to defend Iconodule and his traditional Orthodoxy at all cost, using the most convoluted logical contortions which defy an honest reading of his posts. This, in spite of his saying that the idea that homosexual acts are sinful was no longer "tenable".

Not true. 

Quote
You have sought to portray, what most of us understand as a pro-gay argument, rather as Orthodox.


Not true. 

Quote
How sad then that you don't extend the same charity to Father Trenham, who is an Orthodox priest in good standing and whom you know! You criticise him on numerous occasions in this thread.

What comments of mine do you have in mind?  Maybe we can let Iconodule answer for himself and I will answer for myself. 

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You don't criticise Iconodule at all.

Not true. 

Quote
What is the difference? Why the double standard?

There is none. 

Quote
I know your posturing has been good for generating theatre and hence the popularity of this thread. But can you honesty say that Christ's bride has been honoured in this thread?

I think some have honoured her, and some have not.  In the latter group, there are both "pro-gay" and "anti-gay" persons. 

Quote
And please, I don't doubt your faithfulness to Orthodoxy personally so enough of that silly canard of "So much for never having doubted my commitment to Church teaching".

How is it a canard?  It's the plain sense of your native English words.

Quote
You even seem to be almost convinced that homosexuality is condemned by Scripture although you leave that somewhat open for discussion: "Scripture seems to uphold a positive view of childbearing and childrearing.  It doesn't seem to hold a similar view about homosexuality."

It would be fairly stupid for anyone to claim that homosexual activity is "open for discussion" according to Scripture.  I have never suggested it was "open for discussion".  Not in this thread.  Not in any other thread.  That much is a settled matter and has been for a few thousand years. 

So what exactly about those two sentences is it that makes you think I believe the clear Scriptural condemnation of homosexual activity is open for discussion?

That was another "telling" non-response. Do you think yelling "not true" makes it thus?

Why do you want to walk away from the implications of the charity that you are extending to Iconodule (yet ironically fail to extend to Father Trenham, a priest in good standing)?

It's rather simple so let me spell it out again.

1. You have affirmed that Icondule is Orthodox in his understanding of homosexuality.
2. Iconodule believes homosexual relationships produce "good fruit".

Now unless you want to deny #1, or want Iconodule to deny #2, you should be able to answer the following question: what are the good fruits of homosexuality?

Take your time.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #594 on: September 13, 2016, 03:36:59 AM »
Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!
Nobody is talking about flat earths. But plans and tactics have been brought to light.
Good show! Phase III boys! Keep it coming.
You are truly our buzzfeed listmaster.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #595 on: September 13, 2016, 03:44:25 AM »
Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!
Nobody is talking about flat earths. But plans and tactics have been brought to light.
Good show! Phase III boys! Keep it coming.
You are truly our buzzfeed listmaster.
Oh fabulous! Lovely ad hominems! Keep OC.net queer-friendly!

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #596 on: September 13, 2016, 05:44:43 AM »
What I said was that he  and some others who post on here are encouraging sodomites who are hell bent in their rejection of official Church doctrine of it's rejection of the sin of sodomy when Mor and those I mentioned seem to go on the attack on those like myself who take a hard line backing Tradition and ORTHODOXY when it comes to the sin of Sodom and any other sins of the flesh.Maybe he doesn't see it that way, but from my vantage point, he always seems to want to out me as a hypocrite who has no right accusing others engaging, even trying to justify their obstinacy in the completely immoral act of sodomy.

At any rate, what I percieve here in your threat in moderation is a retaliation by you and mor against me for my refusal to go along with the program of "tolerance" of this sinful act or any of it's protagonists all in the name of "charity" and trying to evangelize them, when the both of you could care less how many of those you chase away from the Church and even Christianity who might view your soft stance and attack on traditionalists as typical of weak Christians who can't even back up something as simple as telling the unrepentant homosexual he is wrong and Christianity is incompatible with sodomy in any form.

But you go ahead and make special exceptions for the advocates of sodomy while you bring the hammer down on those who vehemently oppose it, just like in the secular world. Silence all oppostion. This is typical of all that is wrong with the Church today, there really is no difference in many instances between the world and it's political correctness or the approach and policies of many christians and clergy out there who actually attack people like Fr. Josiah or myself making a stand against sodomy.

I would like to elaborate more on this and my response to your request of substansiation, but due to time constraints in my work schedule, time is a luxury I do not have right now.So you go ahead and and moderate me for "ad hominem" when that is clearly not my intent. But my position on sodomy and Mor's intent remains the same.

So not even a single proof of any of the wild accusations made against me.  OK.
The proof to me is the mere fact of page after page after page of the pro-sodomy posts questioning the "tactics" of the good Fr. Trenham, questioning his integrity and maligning the supporters of true Orthodoxy on the thread.

All the while you continue with the banter about some certain, clearly anti-sodomy posters on here and  their "motivations" for being firmly established on the Church's (yes, mine as well as "yours") teaching condemning sodomy in any shape or form.

You even alluded to the fact that my religion "sucks" where all I see is the sin and not the sinner. Which is totally bogus.

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The real problem is that I look at "homosexuals" or "sodomites" or "LGBT people" or whatever you want to call them and I see people, whereas you see only incarnate sins, abominations, false dogmas, and corruption.  The instinct to reject those things, to say that there can be no good relationship with them, is good, but your equation is bad. You have to see people.  People created in the image of God.  People for whom Christ died.  People like us, all of whom are called to much more and much better than we want.  If you only see the sin and not the person, your "religion" sucks, your "faith" is invalid, and "the measure you give will be the measure you get".

And yet, do the proponents of sodomy see me as a "person", created in the image of God and a sinner as well?

Do you use that same high depth spiriutal perception on yourself when it comes to someone like myself?


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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #597 on: September 13, 2016, 05:48:03 AM »
Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!
Nobody is talking about flat earths. But plans and tactics have been brought to light.
Good show! Phase III boys! Keep it coming.
You are truly our buzzfeed listmaster.
Oh fabulous! Lovely ad hominems! Keep OC.net queer-friendly!
  I like you Clemente, but you really have to stop using the word "fabulous" in your attempt to expose the pro-sodomy, anticlerical agenda on here. It's not very becoming of a straight man to keep using that word. At least not where I come from.

Nothing personal. 8)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 05:48:26 AM by Charles Martel »
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Offline mike

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #598 on: September 13, 2016, 05:52:19 AM »
Words mean things.   How you string your words together means things.  You've used the word "hate" - "self-absorbed" in contradiction to "sympathetic" and followed that up with an aspersion of enmity.   

You're psychoanalyzing and projecting.

Perhaps enmity is a poor choice of words.  It sure seems like you have many misgivings of the LGBT movement and choose to see the movement in somewhat adversarial terms.

Quote
Having seen how you interpret Scriptural passages - it is indeed likely that you are suffering from some sort of significant impairment in this regard, only potentiated by your involvement in the ELCA. 

I reached my own resolution a long time ago. The ELCA has nothing to do with it.  I was just looking for a sacramental, liturgical church.  Despite all that has happened in my life, I still think Jesus matters.  Which is a miracle in its own right.

Quote
Struggle and failure and temptation and falling into the sin of sodomy out of human weakness is not a grounds for exclusion, if one is struggling and fighting the fight.   But active intent (overt, covert or subvert) to participate in a lifestyle and to encourage the Church to embrace active homosexuality is. 

You seem to be focused on what people do an awful lot, rather than focusing on what they are

Quote
This entire discussion between two opposing sides is often unable to distinguish between working and dealing with persons and loving them in their particular circumstances

Exactly... being gay is part of some peoples "particular circumstances".  I will be frank, some of the Fathers, when they are speaking of acts interpreted as "homosexuality" do not seem to be speaking of an awareness of issues that affect the 21st century context of this discussion, the "particular circumstances" of actual gay people. 

Quote
  intent upon "normalizing" promoting and teaching homosexuality 

Are most gay rights advocates actually doing this?  I think they are saying being gay is normal for gay people, not that being gay should be "promoted" to those who are not gay.  That's frankly a talking point of the culture wars that doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny.

Quote
  Sometimes LOVE and compassion involves clear and open communication, including the open communication of defining sin as sin and proposing that repentance is necessary for communion. 

To which I can only think of the stern warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 18:6.  We are not talking about axe murderers here, and I find the comparison with heterosexual adultery incredible.  Especially in a Church that permits contraception and remarriage with economia.  What exactly is so hideous about gays that they don't deserve the same economia?
Why impose this austere monastic ideal on people least able to carry it?

Quote
The entire Protestant Reformation was made a reality through this very process of division and internal warfare that it finally sought the semblance of peace and the normalization of division and doctrinal and practical incoherence that is a faith without FULLNESS and content. 

Does anybody really have a perfect understanding of the Faith?

Quote
Its fruit becomes obvious...and its fruit is a continued acquiescence to active division and the scattering of the flock to be picked off by wolves who wish for both soul and body to be destroyed. 

I don't see unwavering traditionalism and triumphalism as a good response to western modernity.  We are all Protestants now, at least in the western world.  Nobody holds a gun to our head and tells us what to believe.  And we all have to give an account to God for our actions in this world.  "My pastor/priest said it was good" is not going to be a very good response.  God gave us individual minds and hearts for a reason.

Quote
AND as part of that love PREACH AND EXPECT REPENTANCE (as a form of mutual edification) rather than simply drink in the lie that you cannot oppose a sinful lifestyle and also love a person. 

"Hey friend, let me help you remove that speck from your own eye", indeed.

In the west we had centuries of hellfire preachers and mendicant orders of all sorts doing the exact same thing you advise- preaching repentance in a legalistic fashion.  (And I really see the Orthodox "therapeutic" approach as potentially even more insidious if misused, for the worst things could be justified in the name of "doing this for your own good.  For many centuries serfs were also told that economic slavery was "for their own good" and that such a state of affairs was the "natural order").  This approach hasn't seen to make a dent in stemming the long-term tide of secularization.  Quite the opposite.  Now you think maybe the western experience might actually have some insight on this matter? 

Preaching repentance as a condition of grace is a heavy burden upon those who are wounded.  And many gay people are especially wounded (I don't live in San Francisco, I live in the Bible Belt where people are still kicked out on the street and bullied for being gay or transgender).   I think it is rather a matter of many people that need to first approach gays and ask the gay brother to remove the speck from their eyes.   Pope Francis is at least starting to do the right thing in this matter by apologizing to the gay community.
they myth of progress and the promise of modernity went up in smoke in the chimneys of Auschwitz.

Well, Germans were burning gays in Auschwitz too. They liked them as much as some Orthodox do (and people of other religions).
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #599 on: September 13, 2016, 06:19:13 AM »
the myth of progress and the promise of modernity went up in smoke in the chimneys of Auschwitz.

So what's your solution?  An uncritical acceptance of premodern ways of thinking and being?  In western culture that would amount to contempt for all things western.   I don't see the love in that.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 06:25:03 AM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #600 on: September 13, 2016, 09:51:06 AM »
they myth of progress and the promise of modernity went up in smoke in the chimneys of Auschwitz.

Well, Germans were burning gays in Auschwitz too. They liked them as much as some Orthodox do (and people of other religions).
Missing the point-or rather, looking away from it-won't help your case.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline gavaisky

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #601 on: September 13, 2016, 09:57:57 AM »
It's rather simple so let me spell it out again.

1. You have affirmed that Icondule is Orthodox in his understanding of homosexuality.
2. Iconodule believes homosexual relationships produce "good fruit".

Now unless you want to deny #1, or want Iconodule to deny #2, you should be able to answer the following question: what are the good fruits of homosexuality?

Take your time.

For #1, Mor Ephrem does not necessarily agree with Iconodule 100%.

As for #2, it would be nice if Iconodule explained himself.

Accusations of ad hominem are a waste of time. If there are ad hominem attacks, I wish you would simply ignore them instead of complaining about them. It makes it harder for us lurkers to see the thread of discussion amidst all these memes and accusations and counter-accusations. But I guess that's what makes this part of the forum a "free-for-all".
Let the mouth too fast from disgraceful speeches and railing. For what does it profit if we abstain from birds and fishes, and yet bite and devour our brethren? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother, and bites the body of his neighbor.
—St. John Chrysostom

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #602 on: September 13, 2016, 09:59:58 AM »
the myth of progress and the promise of modernity went up in smoke in the chimneys of Auschwitz.

So what's your solution?  An uncritical acceptance of premodern ways of thinking and being?  In western culture that would amount to contempt for all things western.   I don't see the love in that.
Who asks for sight from a blind man?

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance. Most Western culture-at least not yet-does not consist of that cesspool where everything vile and foul collects and becomes fashionable.

I know what problem Fr. Trenham is trying to solve. What "problem" are you claiming is in need of solution?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #603 on: September 13, 2016, 11:04:45 AM »
Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Western culture is capable of being self-critical, and often is.   The problem is not that westerners are not critical (if anything, perhaps we are too critical), it's that Orthodox Christian leaders and intellectuals often only reserve criticism for the "heterodox".

You really don't understand the post-Enlightenment west.  It's not uncritical acceptance of every idea, it's looking for a new ground besides the tired dogmatism of cherished, but ultimately vain certainties.   As much as certain Orthodox choose to attack this project uncritically, they make themselves enemies of a project to better the human condition.  Surely that is a noble intention. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 11:06:59 AM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #604 on: September 13, 2016, 02:03:14 PM »
Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Western culture is capable of being self-critical, and often is.   The problem is not that westerners are not critical (if anything, perhaps we are too critical), it's that Orthodox Christian leaders and intellectuals often only reserve criticism for the "heterodox".

You really don't understand the post-Enlightenment west.  It's not uncritical acceptance of every idea, it's looking for a new ground besides the tired dogmatism of cherished, but ultimately vain certainties.   As much as certain Orthodox choose to attack this project uncritically, they make themselves enemies of a project to better the human condition.  Surely that is a noble intention.

MY DEAR...(Daedelus)

"Our business is to get them away from the eternal, and from the Present. With this in view, we sometimes tempt a human (say a widow or a scholar) to live in the Past. But this is of limited value, for they have some real knowledge of the past and it has a determinate nature and, to that extent, resembles eternity.  It is far better to make them live in the Future. Biological necessity makes all their passions point in that direction already, so that thought about the Future inflames hope and fear. Also, it is unknown to them, so that in making them think about it we make them think of unrealities. In a word, the Future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. Hence the encouragement we have given to all those schemes of thought such as Creative Evolution, Scientific Humanism, or Communism, which fix men's affections on the Future, on the very core of temporality. Hence nearly all vices are rooted in the future. Gratitude looks to the past and love to the present; fear, avarice, lust, and ambition look ahead.

We want a man hag-ridden by the Future—haunted by visions of an imminent heaven
or hell upon earth—ready to break the Enemy's commands in the present if by so doing we make him think he can attain the one or avert the other—dependent for his faith on the success or failure of schemes whose end he will not live to see.

We want a whole race perpetually in pursuit of the rainbow's end, never honest, nor kind, nor happy now, but always using as mere fuel wherewith to heap the altar of the future every real gift which is offered them in the Present.

It follows then, in general, and other things being equal, that it is better for your patient to be filled with anxiety or hope (it doesn't much matter which) ... than for him to be living in the present.

As long as (the future) is the real course of his tranquillity, his tranquillity will do us good, because it is only piling up more disappointment, and therefore more impatience, for him when his false hopes are dashed. If, on the other hand, he is aware that horrors may be in store for him and is praying for the virtues, wherewith to meet them, and meanwhile concerning himself with the Present because there, and there alone, all duty, all grace, all knowledge, and all pleasure dwell, his state is very undesirable and should be attacked at once
."

Your affectionate uncle ~   Screwtape.

CS Lewis Screwtape Letters

Yours is nothing but cannabalism, feeding on the faith of those weighed down with sins...

..."Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these! They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women who are weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.…just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith.…"
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 02:09:42 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #605 on: September 13, 2016, 02:15:39 PM »
I don't see romanticism as comporting in the least bit with the virtue of temperance.  On this point, Lewis is either wrong or being read out of context.

Lewis says the past has a determinate nature- an assumption that sounds far too romantic.  I'd argued much of the past is just as unreal as the future he scorns as well.  History is often read through ideology, we see in it what we want to see, as George Tyrrell pointed out over a century ago.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 02:19:47 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #606 on: September 13, 2016, 02:22:20 PM »
By all means, Keep changing the "gospel" then.

Preach another Christ.   

The future is read through ideology much more readily my friend.   

Your sect's fruits are the proof. 

We always stand ready to take you back in to the Faith, and the freedom from sin that Christ offers.   You don't have to be a slave...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 02:32:49 PM by Onesimus »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #607 on: September 13, 2016, 02:56:06 PM »
The future is read through ideology much more readily my friend.   
What does that even mean?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #608 on: September 13, 2016, 03:01:09 PM »
The future is read through ideology much more readily my friend.   
What does that even mean?

He who has ears...

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #609 on: September 13, 2016, 03:02:02 PM »
The future is read through ideology much more readily my friend.   
What does that even mean?

He who has ears...
Anteater Anteater Refrigerator
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 03:02:16 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #610 on: September 13, 2016, 03:02:13 PM »
As for #2, it would be nice if Iconodule explained himself.

Sure. Here is the post which I believe is in question:

The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful. I think Orthodox pastors are generally awakening to the understanding that it is not something to be switched on or off. We don't pick all our temptations, but we can choose how to respond to them. In this scenario, the Church is called to accept these people lovingly and aid them in their spiritual struggle, counseling them to celibacy. I think such an attitude is workable without the virulent homophobia that singles this sin out as the downfall of civilization. I myself have taken and struggled with this conception.

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am  beginning to think this position too is untenable. I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love.


I'm guessing that Mor and Mina would agree more or less with the first paragraph but not the second. I don't think there is any grounds of accusing them of siding with me on that part. I think what basically unites us is the general principle of "don't be a jerk" on this issue, but for the second paragraph, I am only speaking for myself.

My experience with family members, acquaintances, and generally listening to gay couples, whether childless or with adopted children, tells me that it is possible for such relationships to produce "good fruit," most especially love.

Of course I am aware of the usual scriptural texts invoked on this question, from Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, etc. I call them "historically hazy" because of the numerous linguistic, historical, and cultural issues raised in various debates by scholars as to the precise way to understand these passages. They seem to be bound up with polytheism, pederasty, and other things which do not seem to be inherently bound up in modern gay relationships.

For instance, if we follow Saint Paul's reasoning in Romans, we are looking at an unnatural lust which is introduced as a result of deifying created things. It's a punishment for idolatry, and in this Paul is really reproducing standard Jewish polemics against gentiles. This doesn't apply to those Christians, whether born into the Church or entering it voluntarily, who struggle with same-sex desire, and, no matter how fervently they worship the true God, do not acquire "natural" heterosexual urges. Even many of those who think of homosexuality as inherently sinful have acknowledged the failure of conversion therapy and "pray the gay away" and frame it more in terms of a lifelong cross to be carried, which brings it well outside of what Saint Paul is talking about.

So this is why I say that, when I am confronted with a loving gay couple- particularly a Christian one- I cannot in good conscience say, "You're sinning, your relationship is unwholesome" because the evidence before my eyes tells me that is not true, and the evidence from Church tradition is quite murky as to how and where the famous injunctions really apply.


« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 03:03:12 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
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- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #611 on: September 13, 2016, 03:03:55 PM »
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 03:04:11 PM by Onesimus »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #612 on: September 13, 2016, 04:09:48 PM »
Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Western culture is capable of being self-critical, and often is.
 
You're confusing the scapegoating by the sanctimonious as being "self-critical."

The problem is not that westerners are not critical (if anything, perhaps we are too critical),
:o
self own horn trumpeting noted.
it's that Orthodox Christian leaders and intellectuals often only reserve criticism for the "heterodox".
Often? How often?
You really don't understand the post-Enlightenment west.
 
LOL. That ol' Leftist self-assured smugness "If you could but understand (i.e. if you weren't so stupid), you'd agree..."

It's not uncritical acceptance of every idea

of course not: the tried and true are tossed aside
it's looking for a new ground

because the grass is always greener

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rqEjboP5g50/VLN9UthcEXI/AAAAAAAASEc/vF2l8WrVj3U/s1600/grass%2Bgreener.jpg
[WARNING: language]
besides the tired dogmatism of cherished, but ultimately vain certainties.
 
except of one's own ego, of course
As much as certain Orthodox choose to attack this project uncritically
did you assUme uncritically, or are you assERting that?
they make themselves enemies of a project to better the human condition.  Surely that is a noble intention.
Ah, yes, the high road
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline gavaisky

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #613 on: September 13, 2016, 04:13:29 PM »
As for #2, it would be nice if Iconodule explained himself.

Sure. Here is the post which I believe is in question:

The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful. I think Orthodox pastors are generally awakening to the understanding that it is not something to be switched on or off. We don't pick all our temptations, but we can choose how to respond to them. In this scenario, the Church is called to accept these people lovingly and aid them in their spiritual struggle, counseling them to celibacy. I think such an attitude is workable without the virulent homophobia that singles this sin out as the downfall of civilization. I myself have taken and struggled with this conception.

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am  beginning to think this position too is untenable. I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love.


I'm guessing that Mor and Mina would agree more or less with the first paragraph but not the second. I don't think there is any grounds of accusing them of siding with me on that part. I think what basically unites us is the general principle of "don't be a jerk" on this issue, but for the second paragraph, I am only speaking for myself.

My experience with family members, acquaintances, and generally listening to gay couples, whether childless or with adopted children, tells me that it is possible for such relationships to produce "good fruit," most especially love.

Of course I am aware of the usual scriptural texts invoked on this question, from Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, etc. I call them "historically hazy" because of the numerous linguistic, historical, and cultural issues raised in various debates by scholars as to the precise way to understand these passages. They seem to be bound up with polytheism, pederasty, and other things which do not seem to be inherently bound up in modern gay relationships.

For instance, if we follow Saint Paul's reasoning in Romans, we are looking at an unnatural lust which is introduced as a result of deifying created things. It's a punishment for idolatry, and in this Paul is really reproducing standard Jewish polemics against gentiles. This doesn't apply to those Christians, whether born into the Church or entering it voluntarily, who struggle with same-sex desire, and, no matter how fervently they worship the true God, do not acquire "natural" heterosexual urges. Even many of those who think of homosexuality as inherently sinful have acknowledged the failure of conversion therapy and "pray the gay away" and frame it more in terms of a lifelong cross to be carried, which brings it well outside of what Saint Paul is talking about.

So this is why I say that, when I am confronted with a loving gay couple- particularly a Christian one- I cannot in good conscience say, "You're sinning, your relationship is unwholesome" because the evidence before my eyes tells me that is not true, and the evidence from Church tradition is quite murky as to how and where the famous injunctions really apply.

Thank you for your polite and thorough explanation. I understand your point of view now, though I think I probably agree more with Mor and Mina on this issue.
Let the mouth too fast from disgraceful speeches and railing. For what does it profit if we abstain from birds and fishes, and yet bite and devour our brethren? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother, and bites the body of his neighbor.
—St. John Chrysostom

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #614 on: September 13, 2016, 05:28:39 PM »
As for #2, it would be nice if Iconodule explained himself.

Sure. Here is the post which I believe is in question:

The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful. I think Orthodox pastors are generally awakening to the understanding that it is not something to be switched on or off. We don't pick all our temptations, but we can choose how to respond to them. In this scenario, the Church is called to accept these people lovingly and aid them in their spiritual struggle, counseling them to celibacy. I think such an attitude is workable without the virulent homophobia that singles this sin out as the downfall of civilization. I myself have taken and struggled with this conception.

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am  beginning to think this position too is untenable. I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love.


I'm guessing that Mor and Mina would agree more or less with the first paragraph but not the second. I don't think there is any grounds of accusing them of siding with me on that part. I think what basically unites us is the general principle of "don't be a jerk" on this issue, but for the second paragraph, I am only speaking for myself.

My experience with family members, acquaintances, and generally listening to gay couples, whether childless or with adopted children, tells me that it is possible for such relationships to produce "good fruit," most especially love.
If that's your yardstick, then why not bless adultery as well? Or, better yet, the first spouse is killed off so that the lovers can let their relationship blossom to produce "good fruit" (children, etc.).

Did Ahab and Jezebel produce "love"? Did Henry and Anne? Did Spencer Tracey and Katherine Hepburn?

Does co-dependence count as "love"?

And-now that the "Sister Wives" and others are coming before Injustice Kennedy on the basis of Obergefell-do we have to recognize multiple "love"? Does that include bigamy?

A little while back this year, the local radio station had a thing where they called up for people dates that haven't answered their calls. They called one such guy who called in, who had talked about how they hit it off, how well they got along, how great the date went etc. When they called the woman, she asked "Is this for real?"  The disk jockeys went on repeating how the guy characterized the date, etc. asking what was wrong and why she didn't answer his calls until she said "He's MARRIED." When the jockey asked the first caller if this was true, he said "Yes, but that's OK." When they asked him why he didn't say that in his original call in, he said it "wasn't important" as his wife was "fully on board with this" as he was man who had "so much love to give." As things progressed the caller got more and more judgmental, calling the woman "narrow minded," "behind the times," and a lot of other things.  When the disc jockeys overcame their shock-at least the general public is still capable of shock at such things-and pointed out that just because his wife was OK does not mean the woman has to be "into this," the man replied "well, if she doesn't want to find happiness and love..."

No doubt in time "experience with family members, acquaintances, and generally listening" that rationalization will tell people that it is possible for such relationships to produce "good fruit,"" to the point that the option of "not being into it" will evaporate.
Of course I am aware of the usual scriptural texts invoked on this question
obviously you are not. But you do have the rationalizing of them away down pat.
from Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, etc. I call them "historically hazy" because of the numerous linguistic, historical, and cultural issues raised in various debates by scholars as to the precise way to understand these passages. They seem to be bound up with polytheism, pederasty, and other things which do not seem to be inherently bound up in modern gay relationships.


Is incest OK now too? Abortion-child sacrifice without Molek?

For instance, if we follow Saint Paul's reasoning in Romans, we are looking at an unnatural lust which is introduced as a result of deifying created things. It's a punishment for idolatry, and in this Paul is really reproducing standard Jewish polemics against gentiles. This doesn't apply to those Christians, whether born into the Church or entering it voluntarily, who struggle with same-sex desire, and, no matter how fervently they worship the true God, do not acquire "natural" heterosexual urges.
Your quotation marks make St. Paul (and God)'s point. IOW, yes, it applies.

Even many of those who think of homosexuality as inherently sinful have acknowledged the failure of conversion therapy and "pray the gay away" and frame it more in terms of a lifelong cross to be carried, which brings it well outside of what Saint Paul is talking about.
No, it does not, any more than an alcoholic's cravings void the need for detox.
So this is why I say that, when I am confronted with a loving gay couple- particularly a Christian one- I cannot in good conscience say, "You're sinning, your relationship is unwholesome" because the evidence before my eyes tells me that is not true,
Would you have said that if you confronted Amy and Joey before she went after Mary Jo?

and the evidence from Church tradition is quite murky as to how and where the famous injunctions really apply.
only to those whose vision is clouded.

Now, what to do with/to/for such people is another question.....But the injunctions-i.e. the facts, those are crystal clear.

Same sex sexual activity was not invented in the 20th century. It was well known in the 1st century, and the Apostles called it for what it is. Move not the landmark your Fathers have set up, nor add nor subtract the words from those they spake by the Holy Spirit.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #615 on: September 13, 2016, 07:43:55 PM »
Disgust with and villainizing of the human being is contrary to the spirit of Orthodoxy. Who is the sinner and sick? I am the sinner and sick. Who is the healer? Christ is the only way in which anyone is saved and healed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #616 on: September 14, 2016, 12:16:19 AM »
Is incest OK now too?

I dunno. You are one of the biggest defenders of incest among Arab Christians here.
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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #617 on: September 14, 2016, 01:39:03 AM »
"Scholars" can build up linguistic baloney as much as they want, arsenokoites will still be one who takes a man to bed.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #618 on: September 14, 2016, 06:14:55 AM »
"Scholars" can build up linguistic baloney as much as they want, arsenokoites will still be one who takes a man to bed.

If any man perform arsenocoetia upon his wife, he shall be penanced for eight years, faring the while with xerophagy after the ninth hour and doing two hundred metanies daily.
- canon of Saint John the Faster

It's interesting. When Orthodox encounter many passages that seem difficult for us- "Call no man father," "It is shameful for a man to have long hair," "No man knows the day, nor the Son, but the Father alone" etc, we scramble to explain why the words should not be taken at face value.
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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #619 on: September 14, 2016, 06:59:44 AM »
This doesn't really help your cause Iconodule.   

You may think you're onto something, but this actually works against you.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #620 on: September 14, 2016, 07:55:39 AM »
My "cause" in this instance is simply that the bare etymology of a word is not always the key to its meaning. Clearly Saint John disapproved of any non-procreative sex act, though curiously he penances arsenocoetia between males less harshly than between man and wife.
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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #621 on: September 14, 2016, 09:44:56 AM »
This is not true.   Look deeper.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #622 on: September 14, 2016, 09:53:01 AM »
This is not true.   Look deeper.

If you want to precipitate the samba shoe, you really should indemnify in the adjacent coagulate. Just saying. 
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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #623 on: September 14, 2016, 09:56:53 AM »
You have a broader ideal you are supporting by the use of this particular point, and in trying to use this as fodder for your position, you've cut off your nose to spite your face.  You're swimming against the Scripture, Tradition, Canon Law; in short the whole faith we profess, not just the etymology of a word in Scripture.   Indeed, a very close look at this issue will make it impossible for those who claim some kind of "hazy"ness to be inherent in the text of Scripture in this regard.   You seem to be swimming against the Faith in order to come to terms with your own sympathetic dissonance.   I don't like the dissonance either, it's hard for everyone...most especially our brothers and sisters who have to fight this particular demon.  And it's okay for them to be a part of our Body and struggle and fail with it.   But we encourage them in their struggle against sin, not towards it.    If they fall, we pick them back up, knowing that we ALL fall. 

But Falling down and lying down are two different things.   Telling someone you'll pick them up if they fall down is not the same as telling them that they SHOULD fall down and stay there.   

We don't chuck the faith and draw our own conclusions based solely on our feelings, observations and reason, all of which are subject to the passions and delusions of the world.   That's called Protestantism.

though curiously he penances arsenocoetia between males less harshly than between man and wife.


It's not curious...its quite clear why.

The canons of St. John the faster as regards homosexuality are oikonomia to the original canon of Saint Basil in this regard.   St. Basil canon LXII canonizes sodomites for 15 years, as well as adulterers.  The actual penance for homosexuality in St. John's canon is - contra what you say - stricter,  as it is was a 15 year penance before, but the new oikonomia gives the penitent the option of the original 15 years, or a reduction to 3 years if the penitent wishes to take on the fasting, xenophagy, prostrations, weeping so, etc.  time off for extra contrition towards restoring communion.

See also St Basil canon VII; 
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Sodomists and bestialists and murderers and sorcerers and adulterers and idolaters deserve the same condemnation, so that whatever rule you have as regarding the others observe it also in regard to these persons

 we always welcome all sinners back into communion, regardless of their sin.   Perhaps all of this debate would go away if the Church actually penanced us all for our sins in accordance with the canons?   I don't think I'll be hearing too many people advocating for that
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 10:02:30 AM by Onesimus »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #624 on: September 14, 2016, 10:15:19 AM »
You have a broader ideal you are supporting by the use of this particular point, and in trying to use this as fodder for your position, you've cut off your nose to spite your face.  You're swimming against the Scripture, Tradition, Canon Law; in short the whole faith we profess, not just the etymology of a word in Scripture.   Indeed, a very close look at this issue will make it impossible for those who claim some kind of "hazy"ness to be inherent in the text of Scripture in this regard.

The point I am making with Saint John's canon is that, contrary to what RaphaCam suggests, arsenocoetia has been taken to mean something different than the bare etymology of "man-bedding" suggests. It is also possible that, between Saint John and Saint Paul, a different understanding of the term exists, or else we have to conclude that "arsenokoites" includes anyone engaging in anal or even just dorsal intercourse, regardless of the sex of the two people. And in fact, in elements of Orthodox tradition, sodomy was interpreted this way, going so far as to include the woman being on top of the man.

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We don't chuck the faith and draw our own conclusions based solely on our feelings, observations and reason, all of which are subject to the passions and delusions of the world.   That's called Protestantism.

Is the Church of Russia (or the OCA) engaging in Protestantism when they allow for contraception, in contradiction to numerous Fathers who considered it equivalent to murder (whether abortifacient or not)?  What about the canonical injunctions against women communing during menses, which is being increasingly scrutinized or laid aside as a relic of faulty biological understanding?

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It's not curious...its quite clear why.

The canons of St. John the faster as regards homosexuality are oikonomia to the original canon of Saint Basil in this regard.   St. Basil canon LXII canonizes sodomites for 15 years, as well as adulterers.  The actual penance for homosexuality is - contra what you say - stricter,  as it is was a 15 year penance before, but the new oikonomia gives the penitent the option of the 15 years, or a reduction to 3 years if the penitent wishes to take on the fasting, xenophagy, prostrations, weeping so, etc.

Tell me, what's the word Saint Basil uses for "sodomites"? Saint John uses the term arsenocoetia for relations both between two males and between a male and his wife. Yet in the former case he penances them for three years, and the latter eight years. Both are cases of oikonomia.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #625 on: September 14, 2016, 10:18:06 AM »
Oh boy.   You don't even do your research.   You just say whatever  comes to mind.

Alright. Standby.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 10:27:40 AM by Onesimus »

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #626 on: September 14, 2016, 10:29:06 AM »
If you have a point to make, make it.
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Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #627 on: September 14, 2016, 11:16:10 AM »

The point I am making with Saint John's canon is that, contrary to what RaphaCam suggests, arsenocoetia has been taken to mean something different than the bare etymology of "man-bedding" suggests. It is also possible that, between Saint John and Saint Paul, a different understanding of the term exists, or else we have to conclude that "arsenokoites" includes anyone engaging in anal or even just dorsal intercourse, regardless of the sex of the two people. And in fact, in elements of Orthodox tradition, sodomy was interpreted this way, going so far as to include the woman being on top of the man.

You really need to take more time to study this subject.   Arsenocoetia has its only usage in the Judeo-Christian Tradition until Christianity becomes dominant.  There is not Greco-Roman usage of this outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Lots of misinformation exists out there to argue for some kind of muddy the waters kind of agenda to legitimize sodomy, by saying one cannot see this word as a compound.   But they leave out the fact that the word was coined by the translators of the Hebrew texts into the LXX translation of Leviticus.   Arsenocoetia equates DIRECTLY to  the Hebrew word used in Lev 18 and 20.   The LXX uses this to translate "yiskab et zakar"  The Hebrew states ""lie with a male as one lies with a female."  The LXX translators took "lie with a male" and translated the Hebrew;  "yiskab et zakar" into "arsenoscoetin".   This is where the term has its origin and meaning grounded.  Nowhere else.

You jump to false conclusions and use false premises.   Arsenocoetia in this context simply is sodomy.   There is no other interpretation.  There is no reason to believe that St. John's usage is somehow speaking of something other than sodomy.   Arsenocoetia is always sodomy.   Period.  Interpretive slight of hand will never change that, and all attempts to do this is ideologically based and departs completely with the whole of the Orthodox faith. 

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Is the Church of Russia (or the OCA) engaging in Protestantism when they allow for contraception, in contradiction to numerous Fathers who considered it equivalent to murder (whether abortifacient or not)?  What about the canonical injunctions against women communing during menses, which is being increasingly scrutinized or laid aside as a relic of faulty biological understanding?

Both of the issues you raise have significant reasons why they are allowed.  We can certainly discuss those reasons, but they are not simply reasons of "a relic of faulty biological understanding" in the least.  You are either ignorant of the facts or are purposefully misrepresenting these issue as fodder for your viewpoint. (which I reiterate is against the teachings of the Church).   They do not have any similarity to the question at hand.  In terms of menstration, this has a very practical baseline and I encourage you to speak to your priest about it.   Or I can explain it to via PM.   In terms of contraception, there is complete unanimity that abortifacients are unacceptable.  Always has been across the board.  There has never been unanimity of Tradition regarding non-abortifacients.  SOME Fathers may have felt this way, but it is not a Tradition of the Church when SOME idosyncratic opinions are not universally held.   These are straw men.

What I do know is that you are trying to use your personal judgement over against the Church's on the subject of homosexuality, and none of the Churches interpret homosexuality in the way you describe or advocate, and none of them interpret the above objections in the way you are trying to.   So you are accusing the Church based on your own judgement.  This puts you against the Church.

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Tell me, what's the word Saint Basil uses for "sodomites"? Saint John uses the term arsenocoetia for relations both between two males and between a male and his wife. Yet in the former case he penances them for three years, and the latter eight years. Both are cases of oikonomia.

No.  This is false.   All instances refer to sodomy.   The latter canon is not an oikonomia of a pre-existing canon, it is a new canon unique to St. John's (found only in certain codex manuscripts).   The latter is not an oikonmia of a pre-existing canon of St. Basil.   Only the former.   

The penance for male sodomy is 15 years.

The penance for male/female sodomy is 8 years.

The penance for male sodomy against family members ranges in time frame based on the degree of familial separation.

The penance for male sodomy at 3 years is only admitted IF the penitent chooses to do the "extra" penence.  Otherwise it remains 15 years, which is the actual penance.   

There is no equivalent oikonomia for male/female sodomy.   
   
You are reading what you want to read into this.   The fact that the Church interprets it differently than you - and always has - is what they call a clue.
 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 11:39:13 AM by Onesimus »

Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #628 on: September 14, 2016, 11:34:23 AM »
Keep it coming! We must make those who believe in traditional Orthodox sexuality look like Flat-Earthers!!
Nobody is talking about flat earths. But plans and tactics have been brought to light.
Good show! Phase III boys! Keep it coming.
You are truly our buzzfeed listmaster.
Oh fabulous! Lovely ad hominems! Keep OC.net queer-friendly!
  I like you Clemente, but you really have to stop using the word "fabulous" in your attempt to expose the pro-sodomy, anticlerical agenda on here. It's not very becoming of a straight man to keep using that word. At least not where I come from.

Nothing personal. 8)
I like you too, Charles, though mind you not in the OC.net Pink Mafia sort of way.

Agree completely with your post. Occasionally a member of the OC.net Pink Mafia hacks my PC and sends out these "fabulous"-laden messages. I find them not very becoming as well.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #629 on: September 14, 2016, 11:55:20 AM »
You really need to take more time to study this subject.   Arsenocoetia has its only usage in the Judeo-Christian Tradition until Christianity becomes dominant.  There is not Greco-Roman usage of this outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Lots of misinformation exists out there to argue for some kind of muddy the waters kind of agenda to legitimize sodomy, by saying one cannot see this word as a compound.   But they leave out the fact that the word was coined by the translators of the Hebrew texts into the LXX translation of Leviticus.   Arsenocoetia equates DIRECTLY to  the Hebrew word used in Lev 18 and 20.   The LXX uses Arsencoetia for "yiskab et zakar" T The Hebrew states ""lie with a male as one lies with a female."  The LXX translators took "lie with a male" and translated the Hebrew;  "yiskab et zakar" into "arsenocoeta".   This is where the term has its origin and meaning grounded.  Nowhere else.

I'm familiar with the argument that Paul is making an explicit appeal to Leviticus. Nonetheless, the problem remains- if it simply refers to a male-on-male act (which the Leviticus passages indicate), how can it also apply to a man and wife? The latter instance is simply not something the Levitical law addresses. You say, "Arsenocoetia in this context simply is sodomy." That doesn't actually mean much. The word "sodomy" itself is already polysemous and not only in English. Do you consider a man engaging in sodomy with his wife a sodomite? If, as you seem to suggest, arsenocoetia simply refers to a particular convergence of organs, regardless of the sex of the receiving partner, then how can you maintain that Paul is simply echoing Leviticus? And this is before we even ask what the practice mentioned in Leviticus entailed and signified in the context of Canaanite society.
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Both of the issues you raise have significant reasons why they are allowed.  We can certainly discuss those reasons, but they are not simply reasons of "a relic of faulty biological understanding" in the least.

This is certainly an argument employed by apologists for contraception, not least ialmisry who accused me of using Aristotle as a guide to biology for simply bringing up the discrepancy.

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They do not have any similarity to the question at hand.  In terms of menstration, this has a very practical baseline and I encourage you to speak to your priest about it.

I am well aware of the explanations for both practices. Everyone has "reasons." This doesn't change one whit the fact that they represent an overturning of longstanding, ancient traditions. 

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In terms of contraception, there is complete unanimity that antiabortionists are unacceptable.  There has never been unanimity of Tradition regarding non-abortifacients.  SOME Fathers may have felt this way, but it is not a Tradition of the Church when SOME idosyncratic opinions are not universally held.

I'll repeat Fr Josiah Trenham's challenge, because in this case he's right- produce a single Father approving of non-abortifacient contraception. Go ahead. Saint John Chrysostom, who compared non-abortifacient contraception to "murder before conception," was in fact one of the more liberal Fathers on matters of sex, so to speak, since he did not think the only purpose of marital sex was procreation (see Saint Maximus the Confessor, Jerome, etc). The ROC's current official position has simply no precedent in Church tradition. It's quite eye-opening to see the horror of sex that prevailed in much of Byzantine and medieval Slavic society, which got to such a point that a fair amount of activities both you and I would likely consider innocuous could get one severely penanced, possessed by demons, giving birth to evil children, or struck dead outright by God. Your (tongue-in-cheek?) suggestion to enforce the canons across the board is actually a fair point, because the modern sexual mores, both "conservative" and "liberal", are thoroughly alien to what prevailed in these traditional Orthodox cultures. Father confessors in 16th century Russia would have classed as sins of Sodom acts such as dorsal intercourse between a husband and his wife. And don't even get them started about doing it in the presence of icons! What passes nowadays as standard Orthodox teaching on sexuality would appear rather blasphemous and libertine to them.

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No.  This is false.   All instances refer to sodomy.   The latter canon is not an oikonomia of a pre-existing canon, it is a new canon unique to St. John's (found only in certain codex manuscripts).   The latter is not an oikonmia of a pre-existing canon of St. Basil.   Only the former.

In fact it is an oikonomia of the same canon, since Saint Basil does not differentiate between male-on-male and male-on-female arsenocoetia. You yourself have so stridently affirmed that "Arsenocoetia is always sodomy".
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 12:06:18 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
- GK Chesteron, "Lepanto"