Author Topic: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome  (Read 90355 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #540 on: September 10, 2016, 09:54:34 AM »
Quote
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.

Quote
If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

 
Quote
What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america

Moderator hat on:

I'm going to ask you Charles to substantiate your claim that Mor Ephrem encourages sodomy.  If you cannot substantiate this claim, then I will give you a 45% warning based on the fact that the last time you received an ad hominem warning was with 40%.

You have 24 hours to fulfill my request.

Mina

Are you asking me to substantiate on this thread or a pm?

on the thread
Well, first of all, I didn't say he "encourages" sodomy, so you can retract your false accusation.

What I said was that he  and some others who post on here are encouraging sodomites who are hell bent in their rejection of official Church doctrine of it's rejection of the sin of sodomy when Mor and those I mentioned seem to go on the attack on those like myself who take a hard line backing Tradition and ORTHODOXY when it comes to the sin of Sodom and any other sins of the flesh.Maybe he doesn't see it that way, but from my vantage point, he always seems to want to out me as a hypocrite who has no right accusing others engaging, even trying to justify their obstinacy in the completely immoral act of sodomy.

At any rate, what I percieve here in your threat in moderation is a retaliation by you and mor against me for my refusal to go along with the program of "tolerance" of this sinful act or any of it's protagonists all in the name of "charity" and trying to evangelize them, when the both of you could care less how many of those you chase away from the Church and even Christianity who might view your soft stance and attack on traditionalists as typical of weak Christians who can't even back up something as simple as telling the unrepentant homosexual he is wrong and Christianity is incompatible with sodomy in any form.

But you go ahead and make special exceptions for the advocates of sodomy while you bring the hammer down on those who vehemently oppose it, just like in the secular world. Silence all oppostion. This is typical of all that is wrong with the Church today, there really is no difference in many instances between the world and it's political correctness or the approach and policies of many christians and clergy out there who actually attack people like Fr. Josiah or myself making a stand against sodomy.

I would like to elaborate more on this and my response to your request of substansiation, but due to time constraints in my work schedule, time is a luxury I do not have right now.So you go ahead and and moderate me for "ad hominem" when that is clearly not my intent. But my position on sodomy and Mor's intent remains the same.

Charles,

This is what you are telling me:

1.  I called Mor a sodomite-encourager in that he encourages sodomites to further their cause in this thread.
2.  You, Mina, don't really like me and try to trap me anyway.
3.  I really have no time to clarify calling Mor this.
4.  Go ahead and moderate me, I don't care.

My answer:

Charles, you are an excellent example of a manner in which your belligerent posting will cause you to slip.  Words matter.  If you can't back it up, and you are giving me this attitude that I am out to get you, what choice do I have?  In my dealings with you when I moderated you, and you appealed to me, did I deal with you unfairly?

I'm giving you another chance.  If you really don't have enough time, then I can give you another 24 hours.  You even have the chance to take back what you said.  But don't you again give me that adolescent complaint that I am out to get you or pick on you.  It is your problem, not mine that you skirt around the rules like this.

God bless.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #541 on: September 10, 2016, 11:03:08 AM »
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.   I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them.   

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights.
For two ueber-liberals I knew all it took was living next to a gay bar for a year and seeing what went on.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #542 on: September 10, 2016, 11:47:45 AM »
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.   I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them.   

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights.
For two ueber-liberals I knew all it took was living next to a gay bar for a year and seeing what went on.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #543 on: September 10, 2016, 11:54:53 AM »
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.   I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them.   

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights.
Probably a look for intellectual coherence as a Christian. I was pro-abortion before becoming Orthodox and on the beginning I had to "force" myself to oppose it on all cases. Nowadays I am well resolved on this issue and enjoy debating it and defending life.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 11:56:02 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #544 on: September 10, 2016, 12:02:59 PM »
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.   I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them.   

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights.
For two ueber-liberals I knew all it took was living next to a gay bar for a year and seeing what went on.

Do residents of Wrigleyville usually become anti-heterosexual militants after witnessing the straight lifestyle on Clark?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #545 on: September 10, 2016, 12:34:37 PM »
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.   I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them.   

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights.
For two ueber-liberals I knew all it took was living next to a gay bar for a year and seeing what went on.

Do residents of Wrigleyville usually become anti-heterosexual militants after witnessing the straight lifestyle on Clark?
a lot move into Wrigleyville that way. Btw, Clark isn't known for its straight lifestyle.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #546 on: September 10, 2016, 01:55:19 PM »

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights. 

Who said anything about enmity?   

You see how this works.   One cannot even have a principled or moral stance on this without it being labeled "enmity."

« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 01:59:40 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #547 on: September 10, 2016, 02:04:08 PM »
For two ueber-liberals I knew all it took was living next to a gay bar for a year and seeing what went on.

I know exactly what happens in gay bars.   I'm not quite sure how that's relevant. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 02:11:35 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #548 on: September 10, 2016, 02:08:31 PM »
Who said anything about enmity?   

You see how this works.   One cannot even have a principled or moral stance on this without it being labeled "enmity."

 I'm not necessarily implying a hatred of gays.  I'm implying opposition to the generally recognized concept of "gay rights".  Opposition is enmity in the technical sense, isn't it?  Why mince words on this?

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #549 on: September 10, 2016, 02:51:33 PM »
For two ueber-liberals I knew all it took was living next to a gay bar for a year and seeing what went on.

I know exactly what happens in gay bars.   I'm not quite sure how that's relevant.
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Offline Ilyin

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #550 on: September 10, 2016, 03:06:57 PM »
I guess my big hang-up concerning this issue isn't the sin at all. Afterall, being a "practicing" homosexual is no different a feeding of the passions than lust, or theft, or anything else.

For me, its this idea that somehow, its completely normal and trying to pigeonhole the Fathers and Christ himself into somehow actually accepting it and that somehow, those who are against it are out of the historical and Christian mainstream.

It just aint so.

Quote
pink mafia
I thought it was the "lavender mafia"?

Although I dont really prescribe to some hidden conspiracy (at least in the OCA, where I believe that term got its legs) I do think there are those who lean far to the political left that allow their political beliefs influence their faith, and are more apt to look the other way concerning homosexuality than others, even in the same jurisdiction.

PP


I'm not at all sure about this - surely homosexual acts are particularly sinful because they are such a revolution against  the Natural Law - or are you saying that "all sins are the same", so theft, adultery, pedophilia etc are all the same?



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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #551 on: September 10, 2016, 03:14:18 PM »
I guess my big hang-up concerning this issue isn't the sin at all. Afterall, being a "practicing" homosexual is no different a feeding of the passions than lust, or theft, or anything else.

For me, its this idea that somehow, its completely normal and trying to pigeonhole the Fathers and Christ himself into somehow actually accepting it and that somehow, those who are against it are out of the historical and Christian mainstream.

It just aint so.

Quote
pink mafia
I thought it was the "lavender mafia"?

Although I dont really prescribe to some hidden conspiracy (at least in the OCA, where I believe that term got its legs) I do think there are those who lean far to the political left that allow their political beliefs influence their faith, and are more apt to look the other way concerning homosexuality than others, even in the same jurisdiction.

PP


I'm not at all sure about this - surely homosexual acts are particularly sinful because they are such a revolution against  the Natural Law - or are you saying that "all sins are the same", so theft, adultery, pedophilia etc are all the same?

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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #552 on: September 10, 2016, 06:00:07 PM »
Who said anything about enmity?   

You see how this works.   One cannot even have a principled or moral stance on this without it being labeled "enmity."

 I'm not necessarily implying a hatred of gays.  I'm implying opposition to the generally recognized concept of "gay rights".  Opposition is enmity in the technical sense, isn't it?  Why mince words on this?

That is exactly what you are implying.   

Quote
I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction. I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights. 

Words mean things.   How you string your words together means things.  You've used the word "hate" - "self-absorbed" in contradiction to "sympathetic" and followed that up with an aspersion of enmity.   Then you make some ludicrous attempt to redefine enmity.

Enmity in the technical sense?   Enmity means much more than opposition and you either know that, are being intentionally disingenuous....or...the only other option is a dyslexic disorder, which I'm not ruling out, and if you do indeed  suffer from such a thing, I feel for you and offer you my sympathy.   Having seen how you interpret Scriptural passages - it is indeed likely that you are suffering from some sort of significant impairment in this regard, only potentiated by your involvement in the ELCA.

I have no hate for homosexual individuals in the least.  I have no enmity for them.   Do I "oppose" homosexuality?   Only as it applies to intentional and active participation without regard to struggle and repentance within the Churchand the imposition of secular "rights issues" into matters of ecclesiastical practice.   Outside of that -- I have no say and no desire to have a say in the lives of those who do not wish to unite themselves to Christ in repentance.   I do not involve myself any longer with the worldly political processes.   I'm not even inclined to be involved in Church politics which are being actively seized upon by those who wish to transform the Church into the world, and to bring the spirit of the age into active place within the Church so as to eviscerate, divide and scatter the faithful.

My desire as a healthcare chaplain in CPE residence is to minister to all people at all times without reference whatsoever to my faith imposed upon them.   This means I "come to serve, not to be served."  This is what I do with any faith, any lifestyle, any person in a secular context in which I am going to them.   So I love people of all faiths and backgrounds, sexual orientations, experiences with abortion, etc. and in that role get them access to spiritual care in times of trauma and crisis in the manner they need at that moment within the parameters of a pluralistic ministry setting.   I do not impose my religious faith on them in that endeavor.  My job in this respect is allowing a person with whom I am ministering to be served through their process.  Even if it is an active Satanist (yes, that has happened.)   There are ways to do this in that context without any need for me to diminish my Orthodoxy....I either refer them to a chaplain more qualified and prescient to their needs, or I simply serve the person in front of me and crucify my flesh and act in the role of a social worker.   Only if I am invited to engage further on a particular faith issue will I do so.  Living in San Francisco makes this is constant and active reality.

And in this I am actively intent upon always "squaring the circle" of "supporting" and "loving" homosexual individuals and couples while simultaneously believing that their lifestyle is both damaging to themselves and to others.  The belief that you can only do one or the other is false.   It is not my place to impose the Orthodox faith upon them, (in my secular context) but to minister to them in their context.   If we discuss it in any manner, it is always in deference to them unless they are in some way seeking to escape the lifestyle.   This is a function of my ministry in a secular and worldly environment.   

But here I am...speaking about Homosexuality in reference to a free association of repentant individuals approaching God through the Church, where we are to seek to become "slaves" of Christ.  Ostensibly, I am freely able to express my own beliefs on the issue as IT DOES pertain to my life, my family, my Church, my children, etc. and the teachings of my faith - in Scripture, Tradition and the whole of Church praxis. 

In reference to what our attitudes within the fellowship of repentant sinners should be in regards to homosexuality depends 100% upon the attitude of the repentant or unrepentant, even in its imperfection.  This is the role of a priest, bishop, monk, deacon, chaplain, etc.   It is not particularly the role of the laity en masse.    There is no difference in this regard between the sin of homosexuality and any other sin.    An unrepentant pornographer is to be excluded from communion.   An unrepentant womanizer is to be excluded from communion.   An unrepentant adulterer is to be excluded from communion.   An unrepentant abortion doctor is to be excluded from communion.  An unrepentant homosexual is to be excluded from communion.  Any repentant - of any kind -  is to be given the sacraments of confession, penance where applicable, and communion.

Struggle and failure and temptation and falling into the sin of sodomy out of human weakness is not a grounds for exclusion, if one is struggling and fighting the fight.   But active intent (overt, covert or subvert) to participate in a lifestyle and to encourage the Church to embrace active homosexuality is.   

This entire discussion between two opposing sides is often unable to distinguish between working and dealing with persons and loving them in their particular circumstances, and labeling and opposing a whole set of agendas and desires to change the faith and neuter it of its content because there is no experience with active ministry to homosexuals as people - or contrawise - no critical interactions with the LGBTQ movement and its objectives on the other.   The unipolar approach to this issue on either side is manifested here and serves little purpose but to inflame passions without regard to truth.

Only by dealing with people face to face can we know their heart and intent and individuals struggles.  At the same time, this openness to love and healing with individuals, couples and families does not negate the absolute truth that there is an organized, persistent and intentional polity intent upon "normalizing" promoting and teaching homosexuality and ostracizing those who hold a stance against it's promulgation, advancement and ultimate victory in every aspect of life.   The later is completely opposed to Orthodox Christianity.  THe former is not.   Parcing this out is a difficult task which can only be done in and through relationship.   One can love a person even as they embrace the larger agenda.   Sometimes LOVE and compassion involves clear and open communication, including the open communication of defining sin as sin and proposing that repentance is necessary for communion.

No one is coming into the Churches demanding recognition and blessing of their sins on a political level.  There is no group seeking recognition of the rights of adulterers.   There is no group expressing the need to have pornographers and pornography smiled and and blessed within the Orthodox faith.   This cannot be said about homosexuality.   As a movement it has been successful across the board - and is becoming successful in the Orthodox Church, rendering wooden discussions without content, un-nuanced pronouncements, redefinition of language, and enough division within the body that the movement expressly hopes and plans that the faithful become disenchanted, divided and or so sick of conflict that they acquiesce to anything for a semblance of peace - a peace without real content  - in the ranks. 

The entire Protestant Reformation was made a reality through this very process of division and internal warfare that it finally sought the semblance of peace and the normalization of division and doctrinal and practical incoherence that is a faith without FULLNESS and content.    It became and is a placebo, and people are saved in spite of it, not because of it.   A shadow is accepted for reality.   Depth is sacrificed for triviality.   Life is exchanged for death.    Its fruit becomes obvious...and its fruit is a continued acquiescence to active division and the scattering of the flock to be picked off by wolves who wish for both soul and body to be destroyed. 

And now, it fruits are rendered ripe in our culture at large along with its other manifestations.   Those fruits are being imbibed by us in the name of charity....but so many are incapable or willfully resistant to being able to discern one thing from another, good fruit from bad fruit.   All I see is the false dichotomy being expressed on both sides that it is inconsistent to be able to love a fellow sinner AND as part of that love PREACH AND EXPECT REPENTANCE (as a form of mutual edification) rather than simply drink in the lie that you cannot oppose a sinful lifestyle and also love a person.  Sometimes this will require soft words, sometimes harsh ones, tailored to the person, the situation and the relationship.   But the flattening out of this subject here belies it seriousness and is a testament to the lowest common denominator that evil seeks to have imposed upon us in our dialogues.



« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 06:11:40 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #553 on: September 10, 2016, 06:01:00 PM »
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.   I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them.   

I'd be curious how that happened.   I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights.
Probably a look for intellectual coherence as a Christian. I was pro-abortion before becoming Orthodox and on the beginning I had to "force" myself to oppose it on all cases. Nowadays I am well resolved on this issue and enjoy debating it and defending life.

Yes....I used to be "pro-choice" as well.   But now I guess I hate women and babies.    ::)

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #554 on: September 10, 2016, 11:39:21 PM »
Words mean things.   How you string your words together means things.  You've used the word "hate" - "self-absorbed" in contradiction to "sympathetic" and followed that up with an aspersion of enmity.   

You're psychoanalyzing and projecting.

Perhaps enmity is a poor choice of words.  It sure seems like you have many misgivings of the LGBT movement and choose to see the movement in somewhat adversarial terms.

Quote
Having seen how you interpret Scriptural passages - it is indeed likely that you are suffering from some sort of significant impairment in this regard, only potentiated by your involvement in the ELCA. 

I reached my own resolution a long time ago. The ELCA has nothing to do with it.  I was just looking for a sacramental, liturgical church.  Despite all that has happened in my life, I still think Jesus matters.  Which is a miracle in its own right.

Quote
Struggle and failure and temptation and falling into the sin of sodomy out of human weakness is not a grounds for exclusion, if one is struggling and fighting the fight.   But active intent (overt, covert or subvert) to participate in a lifestyle and to encourage the Church to embrace active homosexuality is. 

You seem to be focused on what people do an awful lot, rather than focusing on what they are

Quote
This entire discussion between two opposing sides is often unable to distinguish between working and dealing with persons and loving them in their particular circumstances

Exactly... being gay is part of some peoples "particular circumstances".  I will be frank, some of the Fathers, when they are speaking of acts interpreted as "homosexuality" do not seem to be speaking of an awareness of issues that affect the 21st century context of this discussion, the "particular circumstances" of actual gay people. 

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  intent upon "normalizing" promoting and teaching homosexuality 

Are most gay rights advocates actually doing this?  I think they are saying being gay is normal for gay people, not that being gay should be "promoted" to those who are not gay.  That's frankly a talking point of the culture wars that doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny.

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  Sometimes LOVE and compassion involves clear and open communication, including the open communication of defining sin as sin and proposing that repentance is necessary for communion. 

To which I can only think of the stern warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 18:6.  We are not talking about axe murderers here, and I find the comparison with heterosexual adultery incredible.  Especially in a Church that permits contraception and remarriage with economia.  What exactly is so hideous about gays that they don't deserve the same economia?
Why impose this austere monastic ideal on people least able to carry it?

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The entire Protestant Reformation was made a reality through this very process of division and internal warfare that it finally sought the semblance of peace and the normalization of division and doctrinal and practical incoherence that is a faith without FULLNESS and content. 

Does anybody really have a perfect understanding of the Faith?

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Its fruit becomes obvious...and its fruit is a continued acquiescence to active division and the scattering of the flock to be picked off by wolves who wish for both soul and body to be destroyed. 

I don't see unwavering traditionalism and triumphalism as a good response to western modernity.  We are all Protestants now, at least in the western world.  Nobody holds a gun to our head and tells us what to believe.  And we all have to give an account to God for our actions in this world.  "My pastor/priest said it was good" is not going to be a very good response.  God gave us individual minds and hearts for a reason.

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AND as part of that love PREACH AND EXPECT REPENTANCE (as a form of mutual edification) rather than simply drink in the lie that you cannot oppose a sinful lifestyle and also love a person. 

"Hey friend, let me help you remove that speck from your own eye", indeed.

In the west we had centuries of hellfire preachers and mendicant orders of all sorts doing the exact same thing you advise- preaching repentance in a legalistic fashion.  (And I really see the Orthodox "therapeutic" approach as potentially even more insidious if misused, for the worst things could be justified in the name of "doing this for your own good.  For many centuries serfs were also told that economic slavery was "for their own good" and that such a state of affairs was the "natural order").  This approach hasn't seen to make a dent in stemming the long-term tide of secularization.  Quite the opposite.  Now you think maybe the western experience might actually have some insight on this matter? 

Preaching repentance as a condition of grace is a heavy burden upon those who are wounded.  And many gay people are especially wounded (I don't live in San Francisco, I live in the Bible Belt where people are still kicked out on the street and bullied for being gay or transgender).   I think it is rather a matter of many people that need to first approach gays and ask the gay brother to remove the speck from their eyes.   Pope Francis is at least starting to do the right thing in this matter by apologizing to the gay community.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 11:42:56 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #555 on: September 11, 2016, 12:59:00 AM »

Preaching repentance as a condition of grace is a heavy burden upon those who are wounded.
 

Yet repentance is still a fundamental teaching of Xtianity, its scripture, traditions, etc. I guess Christ and St. John the Baptist just didn't realize how heavy our burdens can be.

My sarcasm aside, are you suggesting that we abandon the concept of teaching repentance in this situation, or suggesting that homosexual behavior is not really sinful, or both?


Quote
AND as part of that love PREACH AND EXPECT REPENTANCE (as a form of mutual edification) rather than simply drink in the lie that you cannot oppose a sinful lifestyle and also love a person. 

"Hey friend, let me help you remove that speck from your own eye", indeed.

How does preaching and expecting repentance--once again, a thoroughly established Christian teaching--warrant that kind of response?


Quote
In the west we had centuries of hellfire preachers and mendicant orders of all sorts doing the exact same thing you advise- preaching repentance in a legalistic fashion.  (And I really see the Orthodox "therapeutic" approach as potentially even more insidious if misused, for the worst things could be justified in the name of "doing this for your own good.  For many centuries serfs were also told that economic slavery was "for their own good" and that such a state of affairs was the "natural order").  This approach hasn't seen to make a dent in stemming the long-term tide of secularization.  Quite the opposite. 

I'm not saying that we do a good or even an acceptable job of dealing with the issue, but repentance is, as I mentioned before, a strong element of what is called for in Christianity. What is the distinction between legalistic repentance and another form of repentance?

And despite our strongest inclinations, stemming the long-term tide of secularization is not really the primary mission; it is teaching and trying to live the truth, which includes repentance. Or is this no longer appropriate and/or effective, as your statement implied? If not, what are your recommendations? And despite however well-intentioned they are, do they have any basis in established Christian teaching? I'm genuinely interested.

If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #556 on: September 11, 2016, 01:18:22 PM »
Mina, I really don't choose to get into an open debate against you on this thread or challenge your authority as a moderator, since I do believe that you are probably the most reasonable and fair out of the bunch. However, since you have  openly taken me to task on my comments about Mor's motivations behind some of his posts directed at my integrity, I will oblige accordingly.

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1.  I called Mor a sodomite-encourager in that he encourages sodomites to further their cause in this thread.
Yes, I did and I qualified above why I made this statement. Maybe this is not a general statement, but when it comes to myself or anyone that takes a hard line with sodomy. he will go on some type of passive-agressive attack on your character or about your own "sinfulness" or about your "denomination", even if it's in line with his own brand of "orthodoxy". So, when he engages in these kind of tactics in his attempt, IMO, to demoralize your vantage point, he either enables or encourages the unrepentant, open sodomites on here to further spew their posion, not only against the good name of principled men like Fr. Josiah, but the doctrines and teaching of the Church herself. And I for one will not stand for it and will call him out on it, at the risk of moderation or even worse. Because the cause is that important to me. I stand firm in what the Church teaches, I'm not some fickle, meely-mouthed  hipster doofus "christian" that wants to be like the Jesus "dude" and go along with the system because I want to get along everybody and be "kewl" and not judge anyone, regardless of their defiance on certain sins of commandments that they don't agree with. Maybe you're Ok with this modernist crap in order to be the "nice" guy, but I come from the school where I'm not going to be told what I want to hear, but what I need to hear. And I'm the better man for it.

At any rate, I'm not going to keep on expalining on why I said what I said. I called it the way I seen it and I'm prepared to take part in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in good concscience today without hesitation. So you go ahead and push that button and silence me as you see fit and I will stand like a man in my principles and belief in the Faith of my fathers. But I will not apologize or retract one iota of what I believe is the truth. Unlike many christians, I will not stand down in the face of this unseemingly political correctness. and I'm prepared to take the consequences.

This is the last I'm going to say about this.

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You, Mina, don't really like me and try to trap me anyway.
I just call it the way I see it. After about a dozen pages of knocking an Orthodox priest or trying to legitimize sodomy, it's time to put the moderators hat on and put a stop to evil ol Charles and his firebrand style of traditionalism. I get it.

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I really have no time to clarify calling Mor this.
No, I don't. But I did.

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Go ahead and moderate me, I don't care.
The former is true. The latter isn't. But it is what it is and I'll deal with it.

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Charles, you are an excellent example of a manner in which your belligerent posting will cause you to slip.  Words matter. 
It's been my expierence they only matter when someone's offended by something they don't want to hear.

Then they matter.


BTW, as for "words", you never addressed my statement that I never stated that Mor "encouraged" sodomy.  His actions, might have encouraged or enabled sodomites to blather on, but he never formally comes out speaking heresy on Church doctrine.So, I would like that stricken from the record counselor. Much appreciated.

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If you can't back it up, and you are giving me this attitude that I am out to get you, what choice do I have?
I answered as truthfuuly and accurately as I could, you might not agree with it, but at least i'm being genuine and not beating around the bush or "skirting" the issue as you accused me of doing. As for if you're out to get me, well, only you can answer that. I can't do nothing about it either way.

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In my dealings with you when I moderated you, and you appealed to me, did I deal with you unfairly?
IMO, never. But it seems i'm moderated quite often for the most trivial nonsense about how someone percieves my "belligerence" and goes whining to you for one reason or another. That's why I say, they want to shut down any debate and silence all opposition. I never suggest anything of the sort, I'm willing for healthy debate on any issue, they want a room full of "ditto-heads" when it comes to the sin of sodom. Any form of opposition is seen as "persecution" or "ad hominem".

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I'm giving you another chance.  If you really don't have enough time, then I can give you another 24 hours.
thank you.

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You even have the chance to take back what you said.
Why would I? I'm not a politician or criminal. If I said something , nine out of ten, i meant it. No, I'm from the belief that you can't take back what you said, either you believe it or whatever else comes out of your mouth is a bunch of nonsense and your not to be taken seriously at all. and would really respect me if I did? you know I'm more principled than that.

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But don't you again give me that adolescent complaint that I am out to get you or pick on you.  It is your problem, not mine that you skirt around the rules like this.
I believe this direct response eliminates any "end-around" on the rules you might accuse me of in this situation. Whether you moderate me or not at this point because I'm a target is really irrelevant.

I believe this is it on  our issues with each other in this thread.

Thanks for your time.
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Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #557 on: September 11, 2016, 06:12:18 PM »
I would argue that Fr. Josiah did not discern properly in his speech when he was in Georgia, as that form of rhetoric could encourage more violence.

Maybe he did and that's exactly what he wanted.

That's a scary thought.  It would be very sad if true.

I don't want to enter into a debate with the Moderators here. However, upon re-reading this thread, I observe a few things:

1. Father Josiah does not often get the benefit of the doubt, even from the Moderators. In the quote above, the Moderator ruminates about how perhaps Father Josiah wanted to incite violence. Um, no, Orthodox priests don't generally want to incite violence. Is it too much just to assume that?

2. Pro-gay posters get lots of support, even from the Moderators. Even when a poster admits that he no longer finds the traditional Orthodox teaching on homosexuality "tenable" (#229), the Moderator chooses to overlook his heterodoxy (#313), instead imputing traditional Orthodox motives to him.

Why do traditional Orthodox priests get treated here at OC.net with blind suspicion, whilst pro-gay posters get treated with blind charity? Sorry, but doesn't that seem odd on a site called OC.net?

One poster noted that whilst OC.net ostensibly affirms traditional Orthodox teaching on homosexuality, Lord help the poster who actually expresses traditional Orthodox teaching on sexuality here. I think I can understand that comment after reviewing this thread.

Even the affirmations of Orthodox teaching on homosexuality, such as this one by Mor, are rather tepid and leave some opening for debate:
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Scripture seems to uphold a positive view of childbearing and childrearing. It doesn't seem to hold a similar view about homosexuality.

Would we say the Scripture "doesn't seem to hold a positive view about blasphemy" or some other grave sin?

I guess my epiphany in this debate has been that OC.net exists not to affirm Orthodoxy, but to affirm those who would debate Orthodoxy. That is my interpretation, not any official statement. But that is why it is entirely correct to say that OC.net is the most queer-friendly Orthodox site around. Not that homosexuality is affirmed; officially it is not. But debate about it-absolutely!

Which is fine, as long as people don't come here looking for clear affirmations of the Orthodox faith. Yes, there are many fine Orthodox posters here in this thread (whose sandals I am unfit to untie), but their views are juxtaposed against the heterodox, who are given the benefit of the doubt as they defame an Orthodox priest in good standing. That debate is entertaining drama. It generates great traffic and views for OC.net--just look at this thread.

But I question whether threads such as this actually benefit the faithful or the Church.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #558 on: September 11, 2016, 08:08:40 PM »
I would argue that Fr. Josiah did not discern properly in his speech when he was in Georgia, as that form of rhetoric could encourage more violence.

Maybe he did and that's exactly what he wanted.

That's a scary thought.  It would be very sad if true.

I don't want to enter into a debate with the Moderators here. However, upon re-reading this thread, I observe a few things:

1. Father Josiah does not often get the benefit of the doubt, even from the Moderators. In the quote above, the Moderator ruminates about how perhaps Father Josiah wanted to incite violence. Um, no, Orthodox priests don't generally want to incite violence. Is it too much just to assume that?

That's not what Mina said.  He basically said "I would suggest that Fr Josiah may not have realised how his words might be understood and applied in a context like Georgia, where there have been problems with violence in response to homosexuality".  There's nothing in Mina's statement that, in English, would suggest that he believes Fr Josiah may have intended to incite violence. 

Quote
2. Pro-gay posters get lots of support, even from the Moderators. Even when a poster admits that he no longer finds the traditional Orthodox teaching on homosexuality "tenable" (#229), the Moderator chooses to overlook his heterodoxy (#313), instead imputing traditional Orthodox motives to him.

I think your choice of words--in this case, "imputing...motives"--is telling.  There is no way to read no. 313 and conclude what you did without imputing a motive that's not there. 

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Even the affirmations of Orthodox teaching on homosexuality, such as this one by Mor, are rather tepid and leave some opening for debate:
Quote
Scripture seems to uphold a positive view of childbearing and childrearing. It doesn't seem to hold a similar view about homosexuality.

Who was I speaking to when I said that?  Would you quote it in context or at least link to it or give the reply no.? 
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #559 on: September 11, 2016, 08:16:33 PM »
C'mon Mor.    Really?    I really like you and Mina, but you are becoming increasingly transparent in your biases and half of what you've just written seems to be intentionally disingenuous.   

Entertaining speculation that Fr. Josiah might have wanted to insight violence and not nipping that speculation in the bud, is not innocuous.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 08:16:45 PM by Onesimus »

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #560 on: September 11, 2016, 08:18:42 PM »
Quote from: Clemente link

[quote
Does your knowing him personally give you more credibility to critique him than someone who has listened to hours of his sermons?

More credibility?  No, not necessarily.  My point was not that I have more credibility to criticise him, but rather that for me he is a real person first, not some ideological hero or enemy that I'm reacting to.

What a ridiculous argument! Who here doesn't think he is a "real" person? Me? Who has made him out to be a hero? I haven't ever heard hours of lectures from a non-real person. I have already said in this thread that I disagree with him on certain matters, such as legalised SSM, but that I appreciate his perspective.

It must be an "ESL" issue.  The whole "person" thing was not meant literally.  Of course Fr Josiah is a real person.  But there's a difference between someone whom you only know through words, Youtube videos, podcasts, etc., and someone you know through face-to-face conversation, sharing, cooperation, etc. 

Quote
What about knowing him in real life now gives you more credibility to criticise him? Is there some personal foible? Are you peddling in innuendo?

I already addressed your point on credibility, explaining that that wasn't my intent.

Quote
It is easy to say you know him, but then you criticise him, "heart" prurient jokes about him (made by a priest, no less), and then hide behind your anonymous moniker. That is cowardice.

I didn't take Fr Giryus' comment the way you did, so I'm not bound to have your reaction to it. 
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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #561 on: September 11, 2016, 08:23:55 PM »
C'mon Mor.    Really?    I really like you and Mina, but you are becoming increasingly transparent in your biases and half of what you've just written seems to be intentionally disingenuous.   

Entertaining speculation that Fr. Josiah might have wanted to insight violence and not nipping that speculation in the bud, is not innocuous.

I only responded to the quote contained in the post by Clemente which I quoted in full.  I don't see where Mina is suggesting that Fr Josiah wanted to incite violence.  Where do you see it in that quote?

But if the accusation is that someone claimed that and Mina didn't denounce it immediately, make that accusation and provide the evidence.  Mina is not infallible, but he's basically a saint when it comes to assuming the best about someone in spite of that someone, so it wouldn't surprise me if such a comment didn't register to him the way it did to you. 

Anyway, what are my biases, Onesimus? 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #562 on: September 11, 2016, 08:29:18 PM »
What I said was that he  and some others who post on here are encouraging sodomites who are hell bent in their rejection of official Church doctrine of it's rejection of the sin of sodomy when Mor and those I mentioned seem to go on the attack on those like myself who take a hard line backing Tradition and ORTHODOXY when it comes to the sin of Sodom and any other sins of the flesh.Maybe he doesn't see it that way, but from my vantage point, he always seems to want to out me as a hypocrite who has no right accusing others engaging, even trying to justify their obstinacy in the completely immoral act of sodomy.

At any rate, what I percieve here in your threat in moderation is a retaliation by you and mor against me for my refusal to go along with the program of "tolerance" of this sinful act or any of it's protagonists all in the name of "charity" and trying to evangelize them, when the both of you could care less how many of those you chase away from the Church and even Christianity who might view your soft stance and attack on traditionalists as typical of weak Christians who can't even back up something as simple as telling the unrepentant homosexual he is wrong and Christianity is incompatible with sodomy in any form.

But you go ahead and make special exceptions for the advocates of sodomy while you bring the hammer down on those who vehemently oppose it, just like in the secular world. Silence all oppostion. This is typical of all that is wrong with the Church today, there really is no difference in many instances between the world and it's political correctness or the approach and policies of many christians and clergy out there who actually attack people like Fr. Josiah or myself making a stand against sodomy.

I would like to elaborate more on this and my response to your request of substansiation, but due to time constraints in my work schedule, time is a luxury I do not have right now.So you go ahead and and moderate me for "ad hominem" when that is clearly not my intent. But my position on sodomy and Mor's intent remains the same.

So not even a single proof of any of the wild accusations made against me.  OK. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #563 on: September 11, 2016, 08:31:54 PM »
By the way, I've had a fairly lengthy exchange of private posts with Mor Ephram about homosexuality. At no time did he deviate from Orthodox teaching on the subject. So if you want to fault him for pandering to sodomites, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Thanks, but this will only confirm Charles Martel and Co. in their suspicions.  :P
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #564 on: September 11, 2016, 08:37:32 PM »
C'mon Mor.    Really?    I really like you and Mina, but you are becoming increasingly transparent in your biases and half of what you've just written seems to be intentionally disingenuous.   

Entertaining speculation that Fr. Josiah might have wanted to insight violence and not nipping that speculation in the bud, is not innocuous.

I only responded to the quote contained in the post by Clemente which I quoted in full.  I don't see where Mina is suggesting that Fr Josiah wanted to incite violence.  Where do you see it in that quote?

But if the accusation is that someone claimed that and Mina didn't denounce it immediately, make that accusation and provide the evidence.  Mina is not infallible, but he's basically a saint when it comes to assuming the best about someone in spite of that someone, so it wouldn't surprise me if such a comment didn't register to him the way it did to you. 

Anyway, what are my biases, Onesimus?

Well, there's your bias right there.   You may very well know Mina and his heart much better than the rest of the rabble here, and no doubt what you say has merit.   I refer to bias towards individual posters.

Clemente has already provided you the quotes and the context.   Speculation is suggestive, whether you understand that or not.

I'm quite sure you do.   

And please, don't refer to such things as Charles Martel and Co.   I'm not "on his side."   Nor am I against you.   I'd like to not to be inadvertently placed in a Co.   

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #565 on: September 11, 2016, 08:53:28 PM »
C'mon Mor.    Really?    I really like you and Mina, but you are becoming increasingly transparent in your biases and half of what you've just written seems to be intentionally disingenuous.   

Entertaining speculation that Fr. Josiah might have wanted to insight violence and not nipping that speculation in the bud, is not innocuous.

I only responded to the quote contained in the post by Clemente which I quoted in full.  I don't see where Mina is suggesting that Fr Josiah wanted to incite violence.  Where do you see it in that quote?

But if the accusation is that someone claimed that and Mina didn't denounce it immediately, make that accusation and provide the evidence.  Mina is not infallible, but he's basically a saint when it comes to assuming the best about someone in spite of that someone, so it wouldn't surprise me if such a comment didn't register to him the way it did to you. 

Anyway, what are my biases, Onesimus?

Well, there's your bias right there.   You may very well know Mina and his heart much better than the rest of the rabble here, and no doubt what you say has merit.   I refer to bias towards individual posters.

That's just one bias.  You said "biases". 

Quote
Clemente has already provided you the quotes and the context.   

Where?

Quote
And please, don't refer to such things as Charles Martel and Co.   I'm not "on his side."   Nor am I against you.   I'd like to not to be inadvertently placed in a Co.   

I'd like to not be inadvertently placed in a Mafia.  But if there's no reason to assume the latter, there's no reason to assume the former. 
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #566 on: September 11, 2016, 09:22:52 PM »
Sigh.

When have I ever said you were part of a mafia?

In fact, the only time I've ever referenced such a term is to denounce it.   And if my denunciation of such a moniker and grouping of people together was too soft...I denounce it here and now in no uncertain terms.   

I have my own thoughts - and am not in any way associated with Charles Martel, nor have I ever defended him or his points of view as expressed.

Conflating me with others is not helpful...and I seem to remember somebody warning about the unhelpful lumping of people into us vs. them categories.    I've never place you in any stupid "insert color here" mafia.   Don't confuse me with others.

I would argue that Fr. Josiah did not discern properly in his speech when he was in Georgia, as that form of rhetoric could encourage more violence.

Maybe he did and that's exactly what he wanted.

That's a scary thought.  It would be very sad if true.

Speculation is suggestive of the possibility that "violence is exactly what he wanted."   Does the maybe preceeding that somehow negate the suggestive affect?   

Speculating or entertaining such a "scary thought" as if it could be possibly true - is really only defamatory innuendo in that it has no basis in fact, is provably false in that Fr. Josiah upholds the teachings of the Church decrying violence.   Any suggestion otherwise is rank speculation which does not take the facts into account, but surmisses that it could be possible that his motives are directed towards actively encouraging violence.

The initial post by Mina is clearly not implying any intentional or covert intent by Fr. Josiah to foment discord, but the later engagement with Mike does imply that...  I am happy to presuppose, as you do, that Mina's support of such suggestive speculation is innocent.   This concession to the good motives of Mina, does not however negate the reality that it is easily perceived as sullying the character of a clergymember in our Church, without substantiation, against the facts, and in complete disregard of anything other than rank speculation.

 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 09:26:34 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #567 on: September 11, 2016, 09:25:10 PM »
There seems to be a persistent cultural shock here on the part of our Trad (I think that's their term) Catholic friends. Over and over in thread after thread I read posts I'd characterize as gibbering disbelief that their most volatile language is not greeted with cheers in a similar idiom. Perhaps it's time to step back and question if OC.net and, for that matter, Orthodoxy is what you thought -- perhaps you relied on the age-old syllogism, The enemy of my enemy is my friend. At any rate, this can't be good for your hearts -- this seemingly systemic shock over and over to learn you're in "a foreign land" that doesn't share the Trad lingo and presumptions.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #568 on: September 11, 2016, 09:34:21 PM »
Sigh.

When have I ever said you were part of a mafia?

In fact, the only time I've ever referenced such a term is to denounce it.   And if my denunciation of such a moniker and grouping of people together was too soft...I denounce it here and now in no uncertain terms.   

I have my own thoughts - and am not in any way associated with Charles Martel, nor have I ever defended him or his points of view as expressed.

Conflating me with others is not helpful...and I seem to remember somebody warning about the unhelpful lumping of people into us vs. them categories.    I've never place you in any stupid "insert color here" mafia.   Don't confuse me with others.

I would argue that Fr. Josiah did not discern properly in his speech when he was in Georgia, as that form of rhetoric could encourage more violence.

Maybe he did and that's exactly what he wanted.

That's a scary thought.  It would be very sad if true.

Speculation is suggestive of the possibility that "violence is exactly what he wanted."   Does the maybe preceeding that somehow negate the suggestive affect?   

Speculating or entertaining such a "scary thought" as if it could be possibly true - is really only defamatory innuendo in that it has no basis in fact, is provably false in that Fr. Josiah upholds the teachings of the Church decrying violence.   Any suggestion otherwise is rank speculation which does not take the facts into account, but surmisses that it could be possible that his motives are directed towards actively encouraging violence.

The initial post by Mina is clearly not implying any intentional or covert intent by Fr. Josiah to foment discord, but the later engagement with Mike does imply that...  I am happy to presuppose, as you do, that Mina's support of such suggestive speculation is innocent.   This concession to the good motives of Mina, does not however negate the reality that it is easily perceived as sullying the character of a clergymember in our Church, without substantiation, against the facts, and in complete disregard of anything other than rank speculation.

Yet Fr. Trenham chose inciteful terms and inflammatory statements, and before an audience specifically composed of anti-"gay rights" activists. It is not as tho an unassuming priest spoke up one day to say "Orthodoxy and homosexuality are incompmatible" or some other measured statement of fact, and then OC.net took up stones to stone him. (Altho if that is what we are doing, then the sheer amount of straw men we are also erecting should protect anybody from getting hurt.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #569 on: September 12, 2016, 03:31:16 AM »
I would argue that Fr. Josiah did not discern properly in his speech when he was in Georgia, as that form of rhetoric could encourage more violence.

Maybe he did and that's exactly what he wanted.

That's a scary thought.  It would be very sad if true.

I don't want to enter into a debate with the Moderators here. However, upon re-reading this thread, I observe a few things:

1. Father Josiah does not often get the benefit of the doubt, even from the Moderators. In the quote above, the Moderator ruminates about how perhaps Father Josiah wanted to incite violence. Um, no, Orthodox priests don't generally want to incite violence. Is it too much just to assume that?

That's not what Mina said.  He basically said "I would suggest that Fr Josiah may not have realised how his words might be understood and applied in a context like Georgia, where there have been problems with violence in response to homosexuality".  There's nothing in Mina's statement that, in English, would suggest that he believes Fr Josiah may have intended to incite violence. 

Quote
2. Pro-gay posters get lots of support, even from the Moderators. Even when a poster admits that he no longer finds the traditional Orthodox teaching on homosexuality "tenable" (#229), the Moderator chooses to overlook his heterodoxy (#313), instead imputing traditional Orthodox motives to him.

I think your choice of words--in this case, "imputing...motives"--is telling.  There is no way to read no. 313 and conclude what you did without imputing a motive that's not there. 

Please don't lecture me on the subtleties of the English language, my native tongue.

I won't respond to your comment regarding point #1.--your not giving Father Trenham the benefit of the doubt--since Onesimus responded much more eloquently than I might.

Regarding your comment in response to my point #2--giving pro-gay posters the benefit of the doubt--you have given a non-answer. You seem fond of making sort of hubristic non-responses like this one or "that tells me all I need to know". Saying something is "telling" without saying what it is telling is either cowardice or hubris.

Again, you are showing wilful bias. Iconodule clearly doubts Church teaching on homosexuality:
Quote
The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful...

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am beginning to think this position too is untenable.

I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love.
Those "historically hazy precepts" are the traditional Orthodox teachings on homosexuality.

To this Mina responds:
Quote
I think Iconodule is searching (as I am as well) for an alternative to what is perceived as the "fire and brimstone" approach to bring LGBT people to the Church and to repentance.

No, Iconodule rejects Church teaching on homosexuality as "untenable". He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits". This is not Orthodox teaching.

Now, you and Mina can treat heterodox views as Orthodox all you want. You afford great charity to pro-gay posters as they explore innovative approaches to sexuality.

Yet you don't extend the same charity to an Orthodox priest in good standing when accused of knowingly inciting violence.

Your approach is very good for generating traffic--look at this thread of 13 pages.

Yet I question whether that bias serves to strengthen the Church.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 03:38:58 AM by Clemente »

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #570 on: September 12, 2016, 04:35:28 AM »
To calm discussion down a bit, here's a video with Fr Trenham and Robert Spencer I think we can all agree is good: 'Jihad Exposed in America':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDz7o6nPFDI&list=WL&index=39

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #571 on: September 12, 2016, 08:11:52 AM »
here's a video with Fr Trenham and Robert Spencer I think we can all agree is good: 'Jihad Exposed in America':

Unfortunately, nope. At least Fr. Trenham isn't the offending party, in this case though. But many of Spencer's arguments, such as arguing against the historical figure of Muhammad and the Caliph Omar, are pretty ridiculous. And for a Christian to make these type of arguments is, in my opinion, even worse.
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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #572 on: September 12, 2016, 12:07:35 PM »
Quote
I'm not at all sure about this - surely homosexual acts are particularly sinful because they are such a revolution against  the Natural Law - or are you saying that "all sins are the same", so theft, adultery, pedophilia etc are all the same?
no, they're not the same. They stem from the same thing, the passions. However, I DO think there are some sins that e more destructive than others.

Quote
The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful...
This is always what I've beenaught.

Quote
He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits"
They actually dont produce anything. Thats the issue. Its like buying scuba gear when you liven a desert.

Quote
There's no reason to fire up the pitchforks when someone says hey're gay.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #573 on: September 12, 2016, 12:35:53 PM »
Quote
He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits"
They actually dont produce anything. Thats the issue. Its like buying scuba gear when you liven a desert.

OK, I'm going to give an example, and then you can leap in and say it's only anecdotal so doesn't prove anything:

A former colleague of mine died from ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) a few years ago. His male partner gave up a good job (head of a university branch library) to look after him until my former colleague died. But perhaps this is not 'productive'. After all, none of my former colleague's relatives lifted a finger to help, so they must not have felt it was. And my former colleague's male partner could just have dumped him into the government health system and moved on with his life. But he didn't.

(The librarian is now working at another university library, so is once again 'productive' to society though no longer in a same-sex relationship.)

Now of course if by 'produce' you only mean giving birth to children, then of course gays/lesbian relationships have no productive worth.  But there are other ways to be productive in society.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 12:36:41 PM by FinnJames »

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #574 on: September 12, 2016, 12:40:18 PM »
Quote
He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits"
They actually dont produce anything. Thats the issue. Its like buying scuba gear when you liven a desert.

OK, I'm going to give an example, and then you can leap in and say it's only anecdotal so doesn't prove anything:

A former colleague of mine died from ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) a few years ago. His male partner gave up a good job (head of a university branch library) to look after him until my former colleague died. But perhaps this is not 'productive'. After all, none of my former colleague's relatives lifted a finger to help, so they must not have felt it was. And my former colleague's male partner could just have dumped him into the government health system and moved on with his life. But he didn't.

(The librarian is now working at another university library, so is once again 'productive' to society though no longer in a same-sex relationship.)

Now of course if by 'produce' you only mean giving birth to children, then of course gays/lesbian relationships have no productive worth.  But there are other ways to be productive in society.

An admirable thing, he should be commended. However, you're comparing Apples to Oranges.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #575 on: September 12, 2016, 12:51:41 PM »
Quote
He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits"
They actually dont produce anything. Thats the issue. Its like buying scuba gear when you liven a desert.

OK, I'm going to give an example, and then you can leap in and say it's only anecdotal so doesn't prove anything:

A former colleague of mine died from ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) a few years ago. His male partner gave up a good job (head of a university branch library) to look after him until my former colleague died. But perhaps this is not 'productive'. After all, none of my former colleague's relatives lifted a finger to help, so they must not have felt it was. And my former colleague's male partner could just have dumped him into the government health system and moved on with his life. But he didn't.

(The librarian is now working at another university library, so is once again 'productive' to society though no longer in a same-sex relationship.)

Now of course if by 'produce' you only mean giving birth to children, then of course gays/lesbian relationships have no productive worth.  But there are other ways to be productive in society.

An admirable thing, he should be commended. However, you're comparing Apples to Oranges.

PP

You're the one who moved from Apples to Oranges when you changed 'produce "good fruits"' into 'don't "produce" anything'.

I've lived in a same-sex relationship for over 40 years, so I have a good deal more knowledge of what good and what bad can come from having a homosexual having a steady same-sex partner than I imagine most here do. But I've learned that if I post anything at all positive here I'll be accused of special pleading, being biased, lacking humility, being unrepentant, spouting heresy or the like.

But many ears are closed anyway.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:05:51 PM by FinnJames »

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #576 on: September 12, 2016, 01:57:00 PM »
Sigh.

When have I ever said you were part of a mafia?

I didn't say you did.  But I think the suspicion which abounds in this thread is a big problem.  You think I am lumping you in a group, others think they are being lumped into a group, direct questions about who is included in a certain group are met with "Do you want me to attack other members?" and "You're an observant dude", etc.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  But suspicion is basically the topic, so it's not surprising. 

Quote
In fact, the only time I've ever referenced such a term is to denounce it.   And if my denunciation of such a moniker and grouping of people together was too soft...I denounce it here and now in no uncertain terms.   

I have my own thoughts - and am not in any way associated with Charles Martel, nor have I ever defended him or his points of view as expressed.

Conflating me with others is not helpful...and I seem to remember somebody warning about the unhelpful lumping of people into us vs. them categories.    I've never place you in any stupid "insert color here" mafia.   Don't confuse me with others.

That's fair.  I didn't specifically intend to include you with Charles Martel (he himself referred to himself saying something like "those of us like myself", so I just went with the plural), so I apologise for the confusion.   

Quote
I would argue that Fr. Josiah did not discern properly in his speech when he was in Georgia, as that form of rhetoric could encourage more violence.

Maybe he did and that's exactly what he wanted.

That's a scary thought.  It would be very sad if true.

Speculation is suggestive of the possibility that "violence is exactly what he wanted."   Does the maybe preceeding that somehow negate the suggestive affect?   

I only interpreted Mina's comment because that's who Clemente was talking about. 

Quote
Speculating or entertaining such a "scary thought" as if it could be possibly true - is really only defamatory innuendo in that it has no basis in fact, is provably false in that Fr. Josiah upholds the teachings of the Church decrying violence.   Any suggestion otherwise is rank speculation which does not take the facts into account, but surmisses that it could be possible that his motives are directed towards actively encouraging violence.

What evidence do you have that "Fr Josiah upholds the teachings of the Church decrying violence"?  Are there statements you can point to, or is it more of a "because Orthodoxy teaches X, and Fr Josiah is Orthodox, Fr Josiah believes and teaches X"?  I will accept the latter, of course, I just wish that presumption would be extended to others unless there is evidence to the contrary. 

Quote
The initial post by Mina is clearly not implying any intentional or covert intent by Fr. Josiah to foment discord, but the later engagement with Mike does imply that...  I am happy to presuppose, as you do, that Mina's support of such suggestive speculation is innocent.   This concession to the good motives of Mina, does not however negate the reality that it is easily perceived as sullying the character of a clergymember in our Church, without substantiation, against the facts, and in complete disregard of anything other than rank speculation.

I do not agree.  I don't think such a comment as Mina made, in its context, has nearly the kind of destructive power you are ascribing to it. 
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #577 on: September 12, 2016, 02:50:50 PM »
Please don't lecture me on the subtleties of the English language, my native tongue.

OK. 

Quote
Regarding your comment in response to my point #2--giving pro-gay posters the benefit of the doubt--you have given a non-answer. You seem fond of making sort of hubristic non-responses like this one or "that tells me all I need to know". Saying something is "telling" without saying what it is telling is either cowardice or hubris.

LOL.  "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." 

Quote
Again, you are showing wilful bias. Iconodule clearly doubts Church teaching on homosexuality:
Quote
The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful...

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am beginning to think this position too is untenable.

I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love.
Those "historically hazy precepts" are the traditional Orthodox teachings on homosexuality.

To this Mina responds:
Quote
I think Iconodule is searching (as I am as well) for an alternative to what is perceived as the "fire and brimstone" approach to bring LGBT people to the Church and to repentance.

No, Iconodule rejects Church teaching on homosexuality as "untenable". He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits". This is not Orthodox teaching.

"Doubts" need not mean "rejects".  If I had to conclude that every Orthodox Christian who ever struggled with a teaching or practice actually rejected it by virtue of their doubt, we'd all be disqualified. 

If, by "historically hazy precepts", Iconodule means "the traditional Orthodox teachings on homosexuality", he still modified it with "inflict my understanding of" (my emphasis).  I don't think Iconodule speaks for anyone but himself when he pretty much says so. 

If Iconodule in fact "rejects Church teaching on homosexuality as 'untenable'", as you claim, then I would disagree with him.  Since you claimed to have never doubted my commitment to Church teaching, I assumed that would be clear.  I hope it is now.   

Quote
Now, you and Mina can treat heterodox views as Orthodox all you want. You afford great charity to pro-gay posters as they explore innovative approaches to sexuality.

So much for never having doubted my commitment to Church teaching. 

I won't speak for Mina, but for myself, I will say that I see a difference between someone who knows the traditional teaching of the Church and struggles with it in light of some personal experiences and someone who is actively working to change Church teaching and practice because they believe it is false as it exists.  I understand Iconodule to be the former.  He can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm not going to take your word for it. 

Quote
Yet you don't extend the same charity to an Orthodox priest in good standing when accused of knowingly inciting violence.

If you have in mind the exchange between mike and Mina which Onesimus, I have already addressed that. 

As for extending charity to an Orthodox priest in good standing, it's not like I haven't done that.  I have taken at least one other member to task for his criticism of Fr Josiah and his involvement in some campaign to save a cross monument.  IMO, that poster was starting from a position that isn't Orthodox, I said as much, and I suggested that his other criticisms may come from a similar place.  I may not have addressed what you think I ought to have addressed.  So be it.  I'm under no obligation to see and address things the way you do.     

Quote
Your approach is very good for generating traffic--look at this thread of 13 pages.

Yet I question whether that bias serves to strengthen the Church.

I'm not posting in this thread to generate traffic.  If I had never once posted in this thread, it would've gotten to thirteen pages just fine by now. 
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Clemente

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #578 on: September 12, 2016, 05:50:09 PM »
Please don't lecture me on the subtleties of the English language, my native tongue.

OK. 

Quote
Regarding your comment in response to my point #2--giving pro-gay posters the benefit of the doubt--you have given a non-answer. You seem fond of making sort of hubristic non-responses like this one or "that tells me all I need to know". Saying something is "telling" without saying what it is telling is either cowardice or hubris.

LOL.  "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." 

Quote
Again, you are showing wilful bias. Iconodule clearly doubts Church teaching on homosexuality:
Quote
The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful...

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am beginning to think this position too is untenable.

I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love.
Those "historically hazy precepts" are the traditional Orthodox teachings on homosexuality.

To this Mina responds:
Quote
I think Iconodule is searching (as I am as well) for an alternative to what is perceived as the "fire and brimstone" approach to bring LGBT people to the Church and to repentance.

No, Iconodule rejects Church teaching on homosexuality as "untenable". He thinks gay relationships produce "good fruits". This is not Orthodox teaching.

"Doubts" need not mean "rejects".  If I had to conclude that every Orthodox Christian who ever struggled with a teaching or practice actually rejected it by virtue of their doubt, we'd all be disqualified. 

If, by "historically hazy precepts", Iconodule means "the traditional Orthodox teachings on homosexuality", he still modified it with "inflict my understanding of" (my emphasis).  I don't think Iconodule speaks for anyone but himself when he pretty much says so. 

If Iconodule in fact "rejects Church teaching on homosexuality as 'untenable'", as you claim, then I would disagree with him.  Since you claimed to have never doubted my commitment to Church teaching, I assumed that would be clear.  I hope it is now.   

Quote
Now, you and Mina can treat heterodox views as Orthodox all you want. You afford great charity to pro-gay posters as they explore innovative approaches to sexuality.

So much for never having doubted my commitment to Church teaching. 

I won't speak for Mina, but for myself, I will say that I see a difference between someone who knows the traditional teaching of the Church and struggles with it in light of some personal experiences and someone who is actively working to change Church teaching and practice because they believe it is false as it exists.  I understand Iconodule to be the former.  He can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm not going to take your word for it. 

Quote
Yet you don't extend the same charity to an Orthodox priest in good standing when accused of knowingly inciting violence.

If you have in mind the exchange between mike and Mina which Onesimus, I have already addressed that. 

As for extending charity to an Orthodox priest in good standing, it's not like I haven't done that.  I have taken at least one other member to task for his criticism of Fr Josiah and his involvement in some campaign to save a cross monument.  IMO, that poster was starting from a position that isn't Orthodox, I said as much, and I suggested that his other criticisms may come from a similar place.  I may not have addressed what you think I ought to have addressed.  So be it.  I'm under no obligation to see and address things the way you do.     

Quote
Your approach is very good for generating traffic--look at this thread of 13 pages.

Yet I question whether that bias serves to strengthen the Church.

I'm not posting in this thread to generate traffic.  If I had never once posted in this thread, it would've gotten to thirteen pages just fine by now.

Mor,

What "good fruit" comes from homosexual relationships?

You seem to have gone all in to defend Iconodule and his traditional Orthodoxy at all cost, using the most convoluted logical contortions which defy an honest reading of his posts. This, in spite of his saying that the idea that homosexual acts are sinful was no longer "tenable".

You have sought to portray, what most of us understand as a pro-gay argument, rather as Orthodox.

So Iconodule is a traditional Orthodox. I shall put on my vail of ignorance, dismissing the common sense of the English language, and assume for a minute that you are right.

What are the "good fruits" of sodomy? Since we are all presumed to be super Orthodox, please help me to understand these good fruits that our traditional Orthodox brother Iconodule has expressed?

No good fruits from sodomy? That is very "telling". "That is all I need to know"!

(Just kidding).

You extend Orthodox charity and impute Orthodoxy into rather unorthodox opinions. Iconodule, whom you don't know, is by any honest reading, pro-gay, but is assumed to be Orthodox.

Fair enough. Rosy Orthodoxy for everybody!

How sad then that you don't extend the same charity to Father Trenham, who is an Orthodox priest in good standing and whom you know! You criticise him on numerous occasions in this thread.

You don't criticise Iconodule at all.

What is the difference? Why the double standard?

I know your posturing has been good for generating theatre and hence the popularity of this thread. But can you honesty say that Christ's bride has been honoured in this thread?

And please, I don't doubt your faithfulness to Orthodoxy personally so enough of that silly canard of "So much for never having doubted my commitment to Church teaching". You even seem to be almost convinced that homosexuality is condemned by Scripture although you leave that somewhat open for discussion: "Scripture seems to uphold a positive view of childbearing and childrearing.  It doesn't seem to hold a similar view about homosexuality."

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #579 on: September 12, 2016, 05:56:50 PM »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #580 on: September 12, 2016, 06:03:50 PM »
argument
Where is your argument?

That is fabulous. Thank you for coming! More ad hominems.

As usual, we need to use our two-pronged strategy for whenever any priest speaks ill of homosexuality: attack and redefine.

1. Attack the person. We need to inundate this thread with personal attacks on the character of Father Trenham. No need to provide any fact-base for our assertions. Don't worry: we've got some of the cops on our payroll. The point here is to cast aspersions on the character of anybody that teaches traditional Orthodox sexuality. It will be insane!;

2. Redefine the subject.  Remember what Saul Alinsky has taught us:
I. Phase I. Change the subject. Complain about how the Church talks too much about sex.
II. Phase II. "Deemphasise" the subject. We acknowledge the sin of homosexuality, but talk about how it shouldn't be a priority of the Church.
III. Phase III. Redefine the subject. We reject the notion that homosexuality should be condemned. We refer a lot to how the Early Church condemned contraception and divorce as well. We talk from experience how homosexuality is actually a blessed thing.

Now go phase III: talk from personal experience. It will be fabulous.

Bring the other boys!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 06:20:28 PM by Clemente »

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #581 on: September 12, 2016, 06:36:18 PM »
Bring the other boys!

This only applies if they're homosexuals.
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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #583 on: September 12, 2016, 08:23:18 PM »
As usual, we need to use our two-pronged strategy for whenever any priest speaks ill of homosexuality: attack and redefine.

1. Attack the person. We need to inundate this thread with personal attacks on the character of Father Trenham. No need to provide any fact-base for our assertions. Don't worry: we've got some of the cops on our payroll. The point here is to cast aspersions on the character of anybody that teaches traditional Orthodox sexuality. It will be insane!;

2. Redefine the subject.  Remember what Saul Alinsky has taught us:
I. Phase I. Change the subject. Complain about how the Church talks too much about sex.
II. Phase II. "Deemphasise" the subject. We acknowledge the sin of homosexuality, but talk about how it shouldn't be a priority of the Church.
III. Phase III. Redefine the subject. We reject the notion that homosexuality should be condemned. We refer a lot to how the Early Church condemned contraception and divorce as well. We talk from experience how homosexuality is actually a blessed thing.

Now go phase III: talk from personal experience. It will be fabulous.



June 5 (Day 157, Zebulun): The Sun's corona was darkened by a massive hole between May 17 and 19, 2016.  Coronal holes are low-density regions in the Sun's atmosphere (the corona).  Coronal holes, which are detected by NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory, are visible in extreme ultraviolet light (shown in purple in the image) .  Coronal holes cause solar winds of particles that can affect satellites around the Earth and cause auroras, or Northern and Southern Lights.

Although the dark hole on the Sun was not visible to the eye, it did darken a large part of the corona.  This is a spiritual sign of doom, like the Sun being darkened prior to the Second Advent (Is 13:10; Joel 2:10, 31; 3:15; Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24, Rev 6:12).  The Second Advent will be doomsday.  Most of the Earth's population will be destroyed.  Then the Earth will be purged with fire to prepare it for the Millennium.

Conclusion
The massive hole in the Sun's corona symbolized doom although not likely on the massive scale of the Second Advent.  It was, however, a sign of doom in that Satan had engineered a major disaster by destroying the US military with the Prostitute of Babylon.  The dark hole in the Sun's corona symbolized the curse of the US military after Satan's attack on it.

Satan has attacked the US military with the same method as Balaam with the Prostitute of Babylon.  Satan sent the Midianite women into the camp of Israel to lure the men into idolatry with the Prostitute of Babylon (Baal).  Satan sent women into the US military with the full support of the women in Congress for the same reason.  Then Satan sent homosexuals into the military with support from their friends in government.  Satan secured the appointment and confirmation of Eric Fanning as Secretary of the Army to destroy the military, not by war but by sexual perversion.

http://biblenews1.com/history16/20160605sun.htm
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 08:25:00 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome
« Reply #584 on: September 12, 2016, 08:31:03 PM »
Sunspots - so that's what they do.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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