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Author Topic: The Malankara Church: Orthodox Syrian or Syrian Orthodox?  (Read 8936 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2005, 07:47:21 AM »

Because this is more than just not getting along, this is siezure of church property and killing. I need to learn the truth as much as I can, from both sides.

The Church has always had problems, so don't let this scandalise you too much.  I'm not saying this to dismiss what's going on in India, as it's felt much more deeply by us, but still, the Church everywhere is full of sinners, and so this kind of stuff has happened before and continues to happen.
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« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2005, 07:49:47 AM »

There is a church in my mind and the Eucharist in my heart. It is not my fault if our Church has its mistakes, problems, and evils.


It's not your fault if sinners act within the Church, but this stuff about "there is a church in my mind and the Eucharist in my heart" is a little more scary to me. 
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« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2005, 11:12:01 AM »

[quote author=Mor Ephrem link=topic=6975.msg92886#msg92886  I'm not saying this to dismiss what's going on in India, as it's felt much more deeply by us, but still, the Church everywhere is full of sinners, and so this kind of stuff has happened before and continues to happen.
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This is not just a problem in India - the North American bishops of the IOC actively support the siezure of SOC property. As a member of the church, would I not be endorsing this behavior?
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« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2005, 06:55:32 PM »

This is not just a problem in India - the North American bishops of the IOC actively support the siezure of SOC property. As a member of the church, would I not be endorsing this behavior?


Matthew, it was only a while ago that I asked you who the IOC Metropolitan of America was, and you didn't know.  Now you are an expert on their official opinions?  Give me a break, you don't even know them!  Come to New York, I'll introduce you to them and you can ask them anything you want. 
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« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2005, 11:01:36 PM »

If you disagree, could you please dispute this claim?
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« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2005, 12:45:38 AM »

If you disagree, could you please dispute this claim?

No, because, quite frankly, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.  You didn't even know who the bishop was, and now you're telling me what he supports.  You didn't even cite your source for the claim that my bishop supports what you say he does.  Why should I take the claim or you seriously? 

Seriously, come to NY.  I meet with the bishops fairly regularly, and I could introduce you to them.  Ask them whatever you want.  It would be better for you if you did that than if you continued to speak about something you don't know anything about as if you were an expert. 
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« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2005, 12:48:54 AM »

Is there not court litigation over church propreties which our bishops actively engage in?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2005, 12:51:46 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2005, 12:51:11 AM »

Is there not court litigation over church propreties in which our bishops actively engage in?

Yeah; tell me what you know about it other than that. 
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« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2005, 03:58:07 AM »

Tell me what you think I should know. Wink

Honestly, though, every church has problems, but I would like to know the full scope.
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« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2005, 10:01:40 AM »

Tell me what you think I should know. Wink

Honestly, though, every church has problems, but I would like to know the full scope.

I'm not playing this game, Matthew.  If you do your research honestly, then even online I think you will be able to find some of what you're looking for; you'll find a lot right on this website.  Right now, I'm not convinced that you are serious.  You want me to feed it to you so you don't have to do the work, you want me to tell you something so that you can feel you are OK where you are or else you'll leave.  If you decided to leave and join the Syrians, I'd be happy: they are just as Orthodox, and at least you wouldn't be abandoning the Church and the Eucharist for the "Church" and "Eucharist" "in your heart".  That's twisted.   
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« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2005, 11:20:51 AM »

I don't think I'll be going to church again until I learn as much of the truth as I can.

I'm not sure I understand your situation... but if you don't feel you can go have Communion because you'd be participating in these problems, you could always attened and receive Communion in another Oriental Orthodox Church (Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Eritrian, etc) that's not involved in these matters until you feel you understand the Indian situation enough to make a decision.  I'm not saying that you should abandon your Church and go to one of the sister Churches over these issues, but I would think that doing so for a time would be a preferable solution than not receiving Communion at all until you've figured things out.
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« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2005, 06:10:47 PM »

  Right now, I'm not convinced that you are serious.

I am serious but in order to gague the full scope of this situation, one must be able to understand and argue for both sides. In the SOCM forum, I have been arguing in favor of our Church. In this one, it makes more sense to present the arguments of theirs.

If you decided to leave and join the Syrians, I'd be happy

I have no intention at this time to leave our church and neither is there an SOC church in my town. I just would prefer to take a break from St. Gregorios until things make more sense.

I'm not sure I understand your situation... but if you don't feel you can go have Communion because you'd be participating in these problems, you could always attened and receive Communion in another Oriental Orthodox Church (Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Eritrian, etc) that's not involved in these matters until you feel you understand the Indian situation enough to make a decision.

Thank you for making a good point. It is possible that I will attend the Greek Church for the time being.

Peace.
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« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2005, 04:14:16 PM »

I am serious but in order to gague the full scope of this situation, one must be able to understand and argue for both sides. In the SOCM forum, I have been arguing in favor of our Church. In this one, it makes more sense to present the arguments of theirs.

No it doesn't, because this is not a majority IOC website.  Heck, OO are only a fraction of the total membership here.  You're presenting "their" arguments because you want me to answer them, and I'm not going to do that.  I've done my time on SOCM and other Yahoo groups answering questions and asking them; I'm pretty much through with that.  I've gotten enough answers and have enough facts to believe what I believe, and so I am going to worry about being a Christian instead of a partisan.  I hope you will arrive at this "place" yourself through prayer and study and find peace so that you can begin in earnest to save yourself. 
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« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2005, 05:51:23 PM »

What is your personal opinion of what goes on and the pain caused?
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« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2005, 11:34:57 AM »

Dear Matt,

   Do what Mor says. Thats the only way. I tell you cos I have been through that. And I know that even I not very steady yet.
There are good arguments on both sides. And there is atrocious behaviour on both sides. Pray  and try to learn.

In any case you are not going to be condemned , just because your church was doing something that was not very right.

Another bit of advise, instead of asking questions straightaway, go through the archives on this site and ICON and SOCM.  These arguments have taken place, what a million times. You can gain something from that.

I know it is difficult, but just go on ahead with a clear and cool mind.  Maybe you can start to make something out of this messy dispute.

Now I am cradle IOC, and I am in India, I know the language and have relatives on both sides, still it was very tough for me, to even start thinking independently.

regards
Suraj Iype
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« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2005, 08:43:59 PM »


Now I am cradle IOC, and I am in India, I know the language and have relatives on both sides, still it was very tough for me, to even start thinking independently.

It is quite possible that learning of the mistakes of my church is enough to free me to be more independent of a person. I am a servant of God but the Church was made for man, not man for the Church.
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« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2005, 06:47:04 AM »

Unlike on this forum, someone on the SOCM forum answered my question of how the current situation in India is different from when the Greek Orthodox Church decided to become autocephalous:

Dear Matthew,

Though we recognize the Byzantine churches as Orthodox, the reality is that
we've been separated from each other for almost 1500 years. As a result, we've
both developed different praxis in that time. So just because they might do
something (i.e., grant autocephaly), doesn't mean we are compelled to do it.

There are two major differences: Necessity and Minority Views.

On Necessity

There was no necessity for a split to occur in India. Further, I would argue
that there was no real necessity for the GOC to split either, but I think their
position is more understandable.

The Greeks splitting from Constantinople occurred because of war between two
ethnic, neighboring rivals: Turks and Greeks.

I can understand a temporary arrangement (which has happened just about
everywhere, including the Near East) where extended autonomy (what some would
call autocephaly) is granted due to dire circumstances. But the monks of Mt.
Athos give us a better example. When the Turks were perched to conquer
Constantinople, the monks from the Holy Mountain went to the Turks, explained
their situation to them, and offered their allegiance to the Turks. If you get
the opportunity to read any material on this topic, you'll see how the monks are
very critical of the mixing of nationalism with the church: especially on
Cyprus.

In India, there was no war, nor anything that would have facilitated this action
as necessary.

On Minority Views

As your message points out, "the Hierarchs of the Greek Church did not wish to
remain subject to a captive Patriarch in Constantinople."

Whereas in Greece you see the synod moving to be separate from Constantinople
because of the war difficulty, in India, less than the majority of the bishops
wanted to split from Antioch, and half of
those bishops ended up creating a Roman Catholic Uniate group (the Malankara
Catholics).

Now as we compare the situation with Greece and India, let's first understand
how the ideas of self-rule entered into the minds of the Malankara culture. If
you study the demographics of churches in Kerala, you'll see the Syrian Orthodox
concentrated in the North of Kerala, and the IOC concentrated in the South.
When the British ruled India, they had it in mind to conquer all the indigenous
Christians of the land, and bring them under British thought. Their Church
Mission Society helped to incite the Marthomite movement in Southern Kerala,
which led to a schism in the late 19th century. The British strategy was to
incite xenophobia in the Christians, encouraging them to reject any foreign
hierarch (they would of course be permitted their own hierarch if they were
united with the Anglican-communion). So this notion of rebellion against
foreigners began with the British. In one generation, the SOC in the South
shifted to an anti-foreigner view; this was due in large part to their close
affiliation (such as inter-marriages) with Marthomite families. I challenge you
to ask 10 random IOC individuals if they have at least one Marthomite parent or
immediate relative. I suspect that over half of them would confess a close
family relation to these individuals.

In any case, the Syrian Orthodox Church in India had only one bishop until the
time of the Marthomites. ONLY ONE. After this, the Patriarch of Antioch split
Malankara into several diocese. Until this point, there was no chance of bishop
rivalries or struggles because there was only one bishop. Now there were more.
Those in the South later fell to the idea of nationalism.

A little recap:
- The Greek hierarchs wanted this split, the Indian hierarchs didn't.
- The Greeks split from other ethnic Greeks because of a direct war with their
foreign ethnic neighbors. The IOC's goal was to split from non-Indians, while
no war was affecting the Indian population.

NOW... Had the SOC in India truly sought a holy separation of administration,
there is no doubt by any party that it would have been granted if it was a)
necessary or b) the majority. Instead, it was a minority of a few individuals
who found a means to sieze property and lock the Orthodox Christian community in
India in a never-ending spiral of litigation. There was nothing holy or
spiritual about this.

The fruits of these actions were poisonous to the Christians of Kerala. With
the British support for the Marthomite subversion, and the immediate fruits of
the IOC split being half of the IOC splitting from themselves and creating a new
Roman Catholic Uniate group, it makes one wonder who the real architetct of this
whole situation was.

In Christ,
Mike Wingert
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/7027

Peace.
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« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2005, 03:00:31 PM »

Unlike on this forum...

Sigh.  It's not because I don't want you to know our side of the story, but it's because you want things to be handed to you, and that's not going to happen.  I'm a full time student, and I've got Patristics with Fr. John Behr to worry about; I don't have time to convince you of anything.  If "Mike Wingert" has such time, good for him and for you, but you are only hearing one side of the story, and a biased side at that (not that there's not bias on the other side, btw).  You need to see both sides in order to make an informed conclusion.  I've directed you to sources which will prove useful to you in your research.  Use them.  Good luck. 
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« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2005, 03:02:29 AM »

Sounds fair enough.

Peace.
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« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2009, 10:29:53 AM »

Dear Mathew,
I went through your posts.... Both the churches are comprised of the original St Thomas Christians of India, My cousins are jacobites while Im an Indian ( Malankara Orthodox), The primate of our Church is The catholicate of east based out of kottayam, while for the  Jacobites it is Patriarch of Antioch.
It all started when we Indian Christian asked the help of east syrian christians for help way back .... for details you can check this website: http://www.orthodoxsyrianchurch.com/index.php/history

But i would like to inform you that the Government of India is not biased , the ruling from the honorable supreme court is that the both the primates ( IOC and Syriac patriarch of antioch) are equal, even after the ruling that the churches other than EAE and Simhasana churches should be given back to IOC the Jacobites ( Syrian orthodox) are not giving it back and the leftist govt of kerala is supporting them (SO).

I have seen in your posts that you have been pasting the jacobite factions version and then coming to an undertstanding of our church... my humble request to you to refrain from that.

The IOC is not an broken away faction but its is a church comprising of all those St Thomas christians who have retained thier Indian values and ethos and the ancient tradition ( even though the liturgy is now west syriac) of Nasrani/mapilas.
The church was independent thorought its history till the western Roman catholics and Protestant evangilists attacked it an dthat was when we looked towards syria for help, and when the east syrians did not help us the west syrian Patriarch hgelped us.. but we wanted a Spirtual guide not another foriegn ruler who controls every aspect of the church matters. and that was the reason for establishing the catholicate seat in Kottayam.
You should be proud of that fact that you are part of the ancient Indian orthodox church.
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