Author Topic: Pray for Greece  (Read 4500 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2016, 09:15:57 AM »
As for us Baptists, I do not think we have ever had that political and military power, so it is unknowable what we would do with it if we did: but I cannot say we would act any better than the rest. Maybe we shall never be put to that test.

Quite a few Baptists held positions under Cromwell, no?
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Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2016, 02:47:45 PM »
Quite a few Baptists held positions under Cromwell, no?

Yes, I think that is right, but it is not a period I am very familiar with. To be honest, I don't find myself drawn to it.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2016, 05:48:18 PM »
Don't forget the involvement of Southern Baptists in American politics. They might not have directly held the power but they did lobby the government, not always in the right direction either.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2016, 02:34:16 PM »
we can't help but wonder if there isn't a weensy amount of bigotry involved when Protestants start on about the Catholics, the Orthodox, the this the that.

I don't disagree, but maybe what you write actually supports my argument: there are people who bear the name Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox, and there are real Christians within those bodies.
David, there's no question that you do agree that many Orthodox Christians are "real Christians". However, in the website that was cited in the OP, I very quickly found:
 
Quote
Greece has less (sic) than 20,000 believers, around 0.18% of the current population. It is considered the neediest mission field in Europe, including the former Eastern bloc countries and Albania.
This is why we Orthodox are offended by many who claim to be "Evangelical Christian".

I've given a fair amount of thought to the points raised here and why I found the concept of "evangelizing" Greece to be offensive. It's probably because there is the general thinking that Greek = Orthodox. I know the two are not at all synonymous, but it's pretty much impossible to separate Greece and its culture from Orthodoxy. Therefore, it's easy to have a kneejerk reaction and read the call espoused by the website: Pray for the Orthodox - they're all non-Christians.

Imagine the reaction if you were to find out that the Orthodox had begun a campaign to evangelize Baptists (and I'm being more specific than a more generic Evangelical Protestant, since most Evangelical Protestants including Baptists see us a "just another denomination") because many of them are only nominal in their faith and the rest of them have been duped by a heretical teaching that was invented in the 1500 and 1600s by men who put their own interpretation onto the Christian Scriptures.

I think it likely that you personally would find this offensive (as indeed you should). What do you think would be the reaction of less-informed Baptists, especially of the (North) American sort?

My point is that the organization behind the website under examination is seriously misinformed and lacks tact. Perhaps we call for a "Pray for the 'Pray for Greece' supporters".  :)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2016, 02:40:37 PM »
Don't forget the involvement of Southern Baptists in American politics. They might not have directly held the power but they did lobby the government, not always in the right direction either.

Don't forget the Baptist theocracy under Jimmy Carter. (I kid).
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Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2016, 05:19:50 PM »
Imagine the reaction if you were to find out that the Orthodox had begun a campaign to evangelize Baptists ... because many of them are only nominal in their faith and the rest of them have been duped by a heretical teaching that was invented in the 1500 and 1600s by men who put their own interpretation onto the Christian Scriptures.

I think it likely that you personally would find this offensive

Of course, in one sense this is exactly what they are doing here in Wales, if we allow "evangelize" here to mean "bring into Orthodoxy," and the Orthodox Church is making progress here. We would probably agree that "many of them are only nominal in their faith," and indeed it is one of the problems we feel we face - rightly or wrongly, for God alone really knows the heart. So you've got three sorts of people who would claim the name "Baptist": some who virtually never go to church other than for baptisms, weddings and funerals, and maybe Christmas: perhaps we can agree that these are rightly regarded as merely nominal; some who attend often but for whatever reason offer no evidence by word or life of having been born again, indeed would even say that such teaching is outmoded and wrong; and some (happily, many) who know their faith and have "been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come" (Hebrews 6). Concerning this third group, my imagination (for your post invites me to "imagine") is indeed that some would be offended, some would fail to understand what was going on, and some - maybe not many - would have enough knowledge of Orthodoxy to realise that you genuinely believe you are the only true church and were trying to bring us into what you perceive as the environment where God's grace is known to operate.

Quote
What do you think would be the reaction of less-informed Baptists, especially of the (North) American sort?

Probably the first and second reactions (in bold) in my third imagined group.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 05:21:31 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2016, 05:44:56 PM »
You're a very Christian man, Pastor.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Alkis

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2016, 06:05:30 PM »
Greek law forbids proselytising. Even the JWs don't go door-to-door, they just stand on corners holding copies of The Watchtower or Awake! and waiting to be approached first. Any American-coached Evangelical missionary who tried the usual tactics of accosting people in the streets, would find themselves on the wrong side of the law before they knew what hit them.

Some JWs visited me in my room at University's dormitory some months ago to give me a leaflet about their feast. I was eating a piece of baklava. When I opened the door they both looked at my cross on my neck. :p I took the leaflet, I saw that it was from the Watchtower and I just said them "NO" with my eyes. I think there is a big difference in Greece between what the law says and what it really happens.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2016, 06:50:27 PM »
Greek law forbids proselytising. Even the JWs don't go door-to-door, they just stand on corners holding copies of The Watchtower or Awake! and waiting to be approached first. Any American-coached Evangelical missionary who tried the usual tactics of accosting people in the streets, would find themselves on the wrong side of the law before they knew what hit them.

Some JWs visited me in my room at University's dormitory some months ago to give me a leaflet about their feast. I was eating a piece of baklava. When I opened the door they both looked at my cross on my neck. :p I took the leaflet, I saw that it was from the Watchtower and I just said them "NO" with my eyes. I think there is a big difference in Greece between what the law says and what it really happens.

Over 35 years in Greece I was never approached by a JW, whether in the street or with them knocking on my door. Ever. Over here, I get them at least once a year. I think I'll start taking their leaflets and giving them my parish newsletter in return. Whatever works to get the house blacklisted.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2016, 07:03:28 PM »

Quote
What do you think would be the reaction of less-informed Baptists, especially of the (North) American sort?

Probably the first and second reactions (in bold) in my third imagined group.

They'd call it idolatry, or try to lump it in with Catholicism (which to many is an even worse offense than idolatry).  But if the icons didn't black mark it enough, the doctrine of theosis, the lack of sola scriptura, and the absence of a strong YEC stance would surely do Orthodoxy in.  Some would also bring eschatology and replacement theology into the cons list (not necessarily in those words).  It's significant, though, that the pastor of the largest SBC church in our county did not list either Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in his series on false Christian religions.  However, most Baptist congregants I've met don't make such distinctions.  Even mainline Protestants are subject to scrutiny, among the congregants.

ETA: I don't have a national perspective, so hopefully and perhaps what I describe is limited to my area.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 07:07:06 PM by Ainnir »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2016, 07:34:05 PM »
Imagine the reaction if you were to find out that the Orthodox had begun a campaign to evangelize Baptists ... because many of them are only nominal in their faith and the rest of them have been duped by a heretical teaching that was invented in the 1500 and 1600s by men who put their own interpretation onto the Christian Scriptures.

I think it likely that you personally would find this offensive

Of course, in one sense this is exactly what they are doing here in Wales, if we allow "evangelize" here to mean "bring into Orthodoxy," and the Orthodox Church is making progress here. We would probably agree that "many of them are only nominal in their faith," and indeed it is one of the problems we feel we face - rightly or wrongly, for God alone really knows the heart. So you've got three sorts of people who would claim the name "Baptist": some who virtually never go to church other than for baptisms, weddings and funerals, and maybe Christmas: perhaps we can agree that these are rightly regarded as merely nominal; some who attend often but for whatever reason offer no evidence by word or life of having been born again, indeed would even say that such teaching is outmoded and wrong; and some (happily, many) who know their faith and have "been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come" (Hebrews 6). Concerning this third group, my imagination (for your post invites me to "imagine") is indeed that some would be offended, some would fail to understand what was going on, and some - maybe not many - would have enough knowledge of Orthodoxy to realise that you genuinely believe you are the only true church and were trying to bring us into what you perceive as the environment where God's grace is known to operate.

Quote
What do you think would be the reaction of less-informed Baptists, especially of the (North) American sort?

Probably the first and second reactions (in bold) in my third imagined group.
It does appear that you and I share similar positions and stand on common ground. In defence of the Orthodox in Wales (and elsewhere), it is true that many Evangelicals have found a new home in the Orthodox Church. They are simply reaching out to those to whom they find it easiest to relate - and who might understand and respond to the reason for their turn to Orthodoxy. It's a matter of comfort level. Ideally, we should be reaching out to the unchurched. Evangelicals, RCs, etc. will find us if they begin searching.

My quibble is certainly not with you but with the website in the OP and the organization behind it. What advice or counsel might you give them?

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2016, 10:17:32 PM »
Imagine the reaction if you were to find out that the Orthodox had begun a campaign to evangelize Baptists (and I'm being more specific than a more generic Evangelical Protestant, since most Evangelical Protestants including Baptists see us a "just another denomination") because many of them are only nominal in their faith and the rest of them have been duped by a heretical teaching that was invented in the 1500 and 1600s by men who put their own interpretation onto the Christian Scriptures.
Just for the record, this is actually what happened, except that some of the heresies being taught were already condemned by the 700s by the Seventh Ecumenical Council. So there is a huge difference between Orthodox properly evangelizing Baptists trying to save them from heresy and bring them into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and evangelicals attempting to lead Orthodox away from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church into a heretical sect, whether they are nominal Orthodox or not.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2016, 11:47:07 AM »
Imagine the reaction if you were to find out that the Orthodox had begun a campaign to evangelize Baptists (and I'm being more specific than a more generic Evangelical Protestant, since most Evangelical Protestants including Baptists see us a "just another denomination") because many of them are only nominal in their faith and the rest of them have been duped by a heretical teaching that was invented in the 1500 and 1600s by men who put their own interpretation onto the Christian Scriptures.
Just for the record, this is actually what happened, except that some of the heresies being taught were already condemned by the 700s by the Seventh Ecumenical Council. So there is a huge difference between Orthodox properly evangelizing Baptists trying to save them from heresy and bring them into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and evangelicals attempting to lead Orthodox away from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church into a heretical sect, whether they are nominal Orthodox or not.
I don't disagree with you. However, the point here is that this isn't a good way to evangelize. People get defensive very quickly when you attack their beliefs. It's much better to simply offer something more substantial and fulfilling. The truth - whether historical or spiritual - will eventually reveal itself.

Offline Eruvande

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2016, 01:03:01 PM »
Greek law forbids proselytising. Even the JWs don't go door-to-door, they just stand on corners holding copies of The Watchtower or Awake! and waiting to be approached first. Any American-coached Evangelical missionary who tried the usual tactics of accosting people in the streets, would find themselves on the wrong side of the law before they knew what hit them.

Some JWs visited me in my room at University's dormitory some months ago to give me a leaflet about their feast. I was eating a piece of baklava. When I opened the door they both looked at my cross on my neck. :p I took the leaflet, I saw that it was from the Watchtower and I just said them "NO" with my eyes. I think there is a big difference in Greece between what the law says and what it really happens.

Over 35 years in Greece I was never approached by a JW, whether in the street or with them knocking on my door. Ever. Over here, I get them at least once a year. I think I'll start taking their leaflets and giving them my parish newsletter in return. Whatever works to get the house blacklisted.

Ask to be put on the Do Not Call list. We have them once a month here, but I don't mind so much, I'm fast friends with one of the ladies and we just have a jovial chat about our cats and then she goes, leaving her booklets behind. But I do know that if you don't want to be visited you can ask not to be. But you'll probably have to be firm.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2016, 05:23:00 PM »
Ask to be put on the Do Not Call list. We have them once a month here, but I don't mind so much, I'm fast friends with one of the ladies and we just have a jovial chat about our cats and then she goes, leaving her booklets behind. But I do know that if you don't want to be visited you can ask not to be. But you'll probably have to be firm.

Here in Wales the police will give you a sticker to put in your door or window to say you refuse 'cold callers', and I believe it is an offence to knock on such doors. Certainly, when we were visiting house to house to invite people to church at Easter we avoided houses with those stickers.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2016, 05:38:49 PM »
...the website in the OP and the organization behind it. What advice or counsel might you give them?

Quite probably I wouldn't. Their article entitled Greek Orthodoxy, Territoriality, and Globality: Religious Responses and Institutional Disputes is far too long, and written in such arcane jargon, that I confess I didn't read beyond the first few lines. But I suspect that any advice would simply be regarded as coming from a woolly liberal (which I am not: these discussions have made me examine my Baptist, Evangelical faith more closely and have served to strengthen my convictions), and would be unlikely to be heeded. Personally, on the rare occasions when I do pray for Greece, which (as I wrote earlier) is possibly only when I'm there on holiday, I pray for the Lord to work both in the Evangelical work, and within the Orthodox church, for I am sure that people can and do find Christ and thus eternal life in both communions. I understand what the Pray-for-Greece people are doing, and am sure it is valid, but it is likely that a large proportion of the people who respond to their call have little knowledge or understanding of Orthodoxy and do indeed see it as idolatrous (as someone's post says) or, if not that, then at least as bringing people only as far as ritual and æsthetic religious ceremony, but stopping short of coming to Christ himself. When I was last in Tirana, I learnt that there is a prayer group made up of people of Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant faith. I have no idea what they pray for or about, but it suggests there is some minor rapprochement at grassroots level; I have not heard of such a thing in Greece.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2016, 05:42:10 PM »
...the absence of a strong YEC stance...

What is YEC?
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2016, 06:43:52 PM »
Young Earth Creationism.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2016, 09:11:56 AM »
Young Earth Creationism.

Thank you. I think that is the default belief for many Baptists and similar Evangelicals, here in Britain; meanwhile many are happy enough to believe that God could speak through poetry, myth, legend, or whatever, without reducing their belief in the full divine inspiration of the Scriptures, for they still have man created in the image of God, yet now fallen and needing rescue. The latter probably do not talk openly about their wider belief, in order not to offend or unsettle the YEC people - though they will, of course, discuss it privately among friends, perhaps over a pint of ale, as they are also likely to be freer from such restrictions.

Do you, RaphaCam, believe that "die Erde steht in Ewigkeit"? I do: it will be cleansed by fire and renewed, so that there will be a new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell, and heaven and earth will be united, but I would never sing "This world is not my home, I'm just a-passin' through", for I believe this world in its renewed state, released from its bondage to decay, will indeed "endure for ever" and be the home of the redeemed for eternity: no death, no pain, no crying, no mourning, and the sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 09:13:41 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2016, 10:38:07 AM »
Young Earth Creationism.

Thank you. I think that is the default belief for many Baptists and similar Evangelicals, here in Britain; meanwhile many are happy enough to believe that God could speak through poetry, myth, legend, or whatever, without reducing their belief in the full divine inspiration of the Scriptures, for they still have man created in the image of God, yet now fallen and needing rescue. The latter probably do not talk openly about their wider belief, in order not to offend or unsettle the YEC people - though they will, of course, discuss it privately among friends, perhaps over a pint of ale, as they are also likely to be freer from such restrictions.

In my little corner, it's not only the default belief, but held to be the superior and sometimes even requisite-for-salvation belief.  That is taught from the pulpit in some cases.  Basically, if we don't get the first 7 chapters of the Bible "right" (ie: YEC interpretation), then the rest is compromised.  Essentially, it is saying that a person cannot even begin to properly believe in Christ unless they accept this specific interpretation on this specific subject.  In my experience, it is not offense old earth believers avoid but censure.  Selfish, perhaps, but there it is.  It's unpleasant to be suspected of false conversion, limited Scriptural understanding, and sympathy toward/alliance with/fear of Atheists simply because one believes God is not constrained by time as we are AND whether He is or isn't, it's not a salvation issue either way.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2016, 01:00:12 PM »
The latter probably do not talk openly about their wider belief, in order not to offend or unsettle the YEC people - though they will, of course, discuss it privately among friends, perhaps over a pint of ale, as they are also likely to be freer from such restrictions.
I too avoid this subject.

Quote
Do you, RaphaCam, believe that "die Erde steht in Ewigkeit"? I do: it will be cleansed by fire and renewed, so that there will be a new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell, and heaven and earth will be united, but I would never sing "This world is not my home, I'm just a-passin' through", for I believe this world in its renewed state, released from its bondage to decay, will indeed "endure for ever" and be the home of the redeemed for eternity: no death, no pain, no crying, no mourning, and the sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Exactly. This small sentence got me thinking a lot.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2016, 03:52:47 PM »
In my little corner, it's not only the default belief, but held to be the superior and sometimes even requisite-for-salvation belief. ...  if we don't get the first 7 chapters of the Bible "right" (ie: YEC interpretation), then the rest is compromised.  Essentially, it is saying that a person cannot even begin to properly believe in Christ unless they accept this specific

Yes. I don't think I have heard that, and I am not aware of anyone claiming that YEC belief is requisite for salvation: certainly that would run counter to salvation being believed to be by faith in Christ's atoning death, and would therefore introduce a conflicting contrast into the religion. Nonetheless, the idea that "if we don't get the first 7 chapters of the Bible "right" (ie: YEC interpretation), then the rest is compromised" is commonly stated forcefully in books and in talks (though I haven't heard it in sermons) about Genesis. People also put posts to that effect on Facebook - except in all this they would say the first eleven chapters, not just the first seven.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 03:53:22 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2016, 03:55:50 PM »
I've seen similar emphasis placed on eschatology (mostly by dispensational people) raising it to the level of "a Gospel issue" meaning those who take another view must have a false gospel. It's not as common now (since dispensationalism seems to be becoming less common) but in its heyday its proponents certainly made it seem like it was central to the gospel.
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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2016, 05:40:39 PM »
I've seen similar emphasis placed on eschatology (mostly by dispensational people) raising it to the level of "a Gospel issue" meaning those who take another view must have a false gospel. It's not as common now (since dispensationalism seems to be becoming less common) but in its heyday its proponents certainly made it seem like it was central to the gospel.

I guess we haven't gotten that memo here yet.   ::)  The conversation tends to center around when we will be raptured, not if.  The rapture is a given, as is the milennial reign.  Actually I have been personally told by a pastor that the YEC thing was more important than dispensationalism.  So perhaps it is on the downswing after all...



Yes. I don't think I have heard that, and I am not aware of anyone claiming that YEC belief is requisite for salvation: certainly that would run counter to salvation being believed to be by faith in Christ's atoning death, and would therefore introduce a conflicting contrast into the religion. Nonetheless, the idea that "if we don't get the first 7 chapters of the Bible "right" (ie: YEC interpretation), then the rest is compromised" is commonly stated forcefully in books and in talks (though I haven't heard it in sermons) about Genesis. People also put posts to that effect on Facebook - except in all this they would say the first eleven chapters, not just the first seven.

I was quoting a sermon I personally heard.  :-\  It was an nondenomational, Evangelical church.  If salvation isn't viewed as totally impossible without this view, then it is viewed as tenuous and opposing views are only held out of fear of the science establishment (nondenominational Bible study, SBC sermons, independent online organizations).  It isn't actually acceptable to hold a different view, and especially not over a pint.   :o  One lay person told me that if I don't believe in six literal days, then I can't believe the rest of the Bible.  I'm not sure if "can't" meant "may not" or "are incapable of."

It's seven chapters, I'm quite sure, because of flood geology.  I haven't run across the eleven figure, but it doesn't surprise me that an argument covering eleven exists.

But mind, I'm not saying it's a wrong interpretation, or that mine's right.  Just that neither one should be a test of orthodoxy, part of a statement of faith (yes, I have seen this locally), or used as an apologetics bat to  beat atheists into submission.  In short, is shouldn't figure into evangelism at all, and there shouldn't be an attempt to convert those who are confessing Christians, but don't believe the YEC view.  It has become another part of that greater Evangelism question, along with "reaching Catholics" and so forth (again, actual conversations).

Also, I'm not denouncing pints.  Drinking at all is just not socially acceptable in the Christian circles I was in.  I personally abstain because I'm a lightweight and a pint would knock me flat.  ;D  There are other Christian circles in my county where it's ok to have some beers, but they are fewer and farther in between.
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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2016, 06:04:03 PM »
Also, I'm not denouncing pints.  Drinking at all is just not socially acceptable in the Christian circles I was in.  I personally abstain because I'm a lightweight and a pint would knock me flat.  ;D  There are other Christian circles in my county where it's ok to have some beers, but they are fewer and farther in between.

Half-pints of cider are perfectly acceptable for the ladies. 8) Looking forward to the new crop, in fact.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2016, 06:18:58 PM »
Also, I'm not denouncing pints.  Drinking at all is just not socially acceptable in the Christian circles I was in.  I personally abstain because I'm a lightweight and a pint would knock me flat.  ;D  There are other Christian circles in my county where it's ok to have some beers, but they are fewer and farther in between.

Half-pints of cider are perfectly acceptable for the ladies. 8) Looking forward to the new crop, in fact.

Now that is something I haven't ever had.  :)  It sounds tasty!
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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2016, 06:56:35 PM »
I've seen similar emphasis placed on eschatology (mostly by dispensational people) raising it to the level of "a Gospel issue" meaning those who take another view must have a false gospel. It's not as common now (since dispensationalism seems to be becoming less common) but in its heyday its proponents certainly made it seem like it was central to the gospel.

I guess we haven't gotten that memo here yet.   ::)  The conversation tends to center around when we will be raptured, not if.  The rapture is a given, as is the milennial reign.  Actually I have been personally told by a pastor that the YEC thing was more important than dispensationalism.  So perhaps it is on the downswing after all...



Yes. I don't think I have heard that, and I am not aware of anyone claiming that YEC belief is requisite for salvation: certainly that would run counter to salvation being believed to be by faith in Christ's atoning death, and would therefore introduce a conflicting contrast into the religion. Nonetheless, the idea that "if we don't get the first 7 chapters of the Bible "right" (ie: YEC interpretation), then the rest is compromised" is commonly stated forcefully in books and in talks (though I haven't heard it in sermons) about Genesis. People also put posts to that effect on Facebook - except in all this they would say the first eleven chapters, not just the first seven.

I was quoting a sermon I personally heard.  :-\  It was an nondenomational, Evangelical church.  If salvation isn't viewed as totally impossible without this view, then it is viewed as tenuous and opposing views are only held out of fear of the science establishment (nondenominational Bible study, SBC sermons, independent online organizations).  It isn't actually acceptable to hold a different view, and especially not over a pint.   :o  One lay person told me that if I don't believe in six literal days, then I can't believe the rest of the Bible.  I'm not sure if "can't" meant "may not" or "are incapable of."

It's seven chapters, I'm quite sure, because of flood geology.  I haven't run across the eleven figure, but it doesn't surprise me that an argument covering eleven exists.

But mind, I'm not saying it's a wrong interpretation, or that mine's right.  Just that neither one should be a test of orthodoxy, part of a statement of faith (yes, I have seen this locally), or used as an apologetics bat to  beat atheists into submission.  In short, is shouldn't figure into evangelism at all, and there shouldn't be an attempt to convert those who are confessing Christians, but don't believe the YEC view.  It has become another part of that greater Evangelism question, along with "reaching Catholics" and so forth (again, actual conversations).

Also, I'm not denouncing pints.  Drinking at all is just not socially acceptable in the Christian circles I was in.  I personally abstain because I'm a lightweight and a pint would knock me flat.  ;D  There are other Christian circles in my county where it's ok to have some beers, but they are fewer and farther in between.




Maybe this quote from ST. BASIL will help you:


ST. BASIL * VOLUME VIII

And the evening and the morning were one day. Why does Scripture say "one day the first day"? Before speaking to us of the second, the third, and the fourth days, would it not have been more natural to call that one the first which began the series? If it therefore says "one day," it is from a wish to determine the measure of day and night, and to combine the time that they contain. Now Twenty-Four Hours Fill Up The Space Of One Day--we mean of a day and of a night; and if, at the time of the solstices, they have not both an equal length, the time marked by Scripture does not the less circumscribe their duration. It is as though it said: Now Twenty-Four Hours Fill Up The Space Of One Day, or that, in reality a day is the time that the heavens starting from one point take to return there. Thus, every time that, in the revolution of the sun, evening and morning occupy the world, their periodical succession never exceeds the space of one day.

* THE BOOK OF ST. BASIL ON THE SPIRIT HOMILY II pp. 64-65 * 330 A.D. - 379 A.D
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 06:58:01 PM by Jude1:3 »

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2016, 07:16:45 PM »
I've seen similar emphasis placed on eschatology (mostly by dispensational people) raising it to the level of "a Gospel issue" meaning those who take another view must have a false gospel. It's not as common now (since dispensationalism seems to be becoming less common) but in its heyday its proponents certainly made it seem like it was central to the gospel.

I guess we haven't gotten that memo here yet.   ::)  The conversation tends to center around when we will be raptured, not if.  The rapture is a given, as is the milennial reign.  Actually I have been personally told by a pastor that the YEC thing was more important than dispensationalism.  So perhaps it is on the downswing after all...

I don't doubt that dispensationalism is still strong in many parts of the country. I just meant that the novelty has worn off; the "in thing", among young people at least, is John Piper-style Calvinism (which is rarely dispensational). Either that or the emergent church.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 07:17:51 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2016, 06:04:19 PM »
Why don't these groups spend their time trying to convert Saudi Arabia or something?

Probably for the same reasons the Orthodox get converts in the US and not in Saudi Arabia either.
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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2016, 06:45:11 PM »


Type AMEN = 10000 prayers for Greece
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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2016, 04:38:15 PM »
Half-pints of cider are perfectly acceptable for the ladies.

Hmmm... here, good cider is quite a bit stronger than ale, unless you find a specially strong ale. You can get a bubbly drink they call cider, and I dare say it is made from apples, but the real stuff is best bought at the farm, and is usually still - no bubbles, and often somewhat cloudy. Supermarkets sometimes sell the real thing, but not always. If I had more than a pint... well, I prefer not to imagine the effect!

But we have now strayed rather a long way from the theme of the thread. ;)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 04:39:07 PM by David Young »
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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2016, 04:48:21 PM »
I've seen similar emphasis placed on eschatology (mostly by dispensational people) raising it to the level of "a Gospel issue" meaning those who take another view must have a false gospel. It's not as common now (since dispensationalism seems to be becoming less common) but in its heyday its proponents certainly made it seem like it was central to the gospel.

I guess we haven't gotten that memo here yet.   ::)  The conversation tends to center around when we will be raptured, not if.  The rapture is a given, as is the milennial reign.  Actually I have been personally told by a pastor that the YEC thing was more important than dispensationalism.  So perhaps it is on the downswing after all...

I don't doubt that dispensationalism is still strong in many parts of the country. I just meant that the novelty has worn off; the "in thing", among young people at least, is John Piper-style Calvinism (which is rarely dispensational). Either that or the emergent church.


Can you define and explain for us what the "emergent" church is?

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2016, 09:09:53 PM »
Maybe this quote from ST. BASIL will help you:


ST. BASIL * VOLUME VIII

And the evening and the morning were one day. Why does Scripture say "one day the first day"? Before speaking to us of the second, the third, and the fourth days, would it not have been more natural to call that one the first which began the series? If it therefore says "one day," it is from a wish to determine the measure of day and night, and to combine the time that they contain. Now Twenty-Four Hours Fill Up The Space Of One Day--we mean of a day and of a night; and if, at the time of the solstices, they have not both an equal length, the time marked by Scripture does not the less circumscribe their duration. It is as though it said: Now Twenty-Four Hours Fill Up The Space Of One Day, or that, in reality a day is the time that the heavens starting from one point take to return there. Thus, every time that, in the revolution of the sun, evening and morning occupy the world, their periodical succession never exceeds the space of one day.

* THE BOOK OF ST. BASIL ON THE SPIRIT HOMILY II pp. 64-65 * 330 A.D. - 379 A.D

It's interesting, thank you.  Has there happened to be an Ecumenical council about the matter?


Can you define and explain for us what the "emergent" church is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church 

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/evangelicalism_part_2b

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html

From the third link:
Quote
To define a movement, we must, as a courtesy, let it say what it is. Eddie Gibbs and Ryan Bolger, in their book, Emerging Churches: Creating Christian Community in Postmodern Cultures (Baker Academic, 2005) define emerging in this way:

Emerging churches are communities that practice the way of Jesus within postmodern cultures. This definition encompasses nine practices. Emerging churches (1) identify with the life of Jesus, (2) transform the secular realm, and (3) live highly communal lives. Because of these three activities, they (4) welcome the stranger, (5) serve with generosity, (6) participate as producers, (7) create as created beings, (8 ) lead as a body, and (9) take part in spiritual activities.

The flip side of the description above is that it appears to be completely decentralized, and to eschew institutional anything.  However, I'm a person that doesn't like to throw the baby out with the bath water or more specifically, denigrate everything a group does simply because one or even many things are out of place. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 09:10:32 PM by Ainnir »
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2016, 08:32:15 PM »
It is strange that they used a beautiful photo of Meteora, a well known Orthodox monastic community, on their website...

It is not that strange if you understand the Evangelical mindset. The more charming the location or people, the greater a pity it is that they are not in Evangelical hands born again and used for good.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2016, 02:55:00 PM »
the Evangelical mindset. The more charming the location or people, the greater a pity it is that they are not in Evangelical hands born again and used for good.

Hmmm... I'm not sure you're right on that. I passed Meteora on the bus a number of times (the bus stops for a coffee and snack break opposite the monasteries) and always wanted to take my wife there to see it all. (We eventually went in 2014). I think the picture was chosen because it is an evocation of Greece, something quintessential and at the same time unique. You see a lot of Evangelical magazines &c with pictures of poverty and distress, also appealing for godly interest in prayer, giving or service.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Pray for Greece
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2016, 11:43:21 AM »
  Even mainline Protestants are subject to scrutiny, among the congregants.

I find this to be surprisingly true, even among clergy.
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