Author Topic: Will all of the dead be resurrected?  (Read 4115 times)

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2016, 11:51:22 PM »
Forgive me, Mods.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2016, 01:53:24 PM »
Do you know what I realized today? We sort of "assume" that all of these dead are human, don't we? Whereas we should know full well, according to St. Paul, that "ye shall judge angels".
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2016, 02:03:03 PM »
Forgive me, Mods.

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2016, 03:35:03 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.

Is it too fantastical?

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

I suppose that's my question. I get that pathological converts and inquirers get obsessed with reading all these books from the Bible that weren't on their radar or were outright forbidden before, but does anyone in the actual Ethiopian church read them? Do they have any real impact use in the life of the church itself?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2016, 05:06:07 PM »
Do you know what I realized today? We sort of "assume" that all of these dead are human, don't we? Whereas we should know full well, according to St. Paul, that "ye shall judge angels".

Angels never became subject to death; therefore, resurrection wouldn't apply to angels. Judgment, on the other hand, is fitting for any rational creature, and the passage you quote is a fascinating one.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2016, 10:42:03 PM »
Do you know what I realized today? We sort of "assume" that all of these dead are human, don't we? Whereas we should know full well, according to St. Paul, that "ye shall judge angels".

Angels never became subject to death; therefore, resurrection wouldn't apply to angels. Judgment, on the other hand, is fitting for any rational creature, and the passage you quote is a fascinating one.

If it's more fitting linguistically? How about the so-called "demons"?

aach. nevermind. As St. Peter quoth: "the angels who sinned."
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 10:43:54 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2016, 10:47:42 PM »
Mr. Mina Soliman,

I found another of your "works", if it's the same Mr. Mina Soliman on (another website)?

*a reference to Mr. Mina Soliman's recently published work, found on this site. (and not in any way meant to embiggen the referrer.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 10:59:37 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2016, 11:46:48 PM »
Really, am I missing something?

Are the angels of God judged according to their works, or are some of them never resurrected?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 11:50:45 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2016, 10:59:16 PM »

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

I suppose that's my question. I get that pathological converts and inquirers get obsessed with reading all these books from the Bible that weren't on their radar or were outright forbidden before, but does anyone in the actual Ethiopian church read them? Do they have any real impact use in the life of the church itself?

Many people I've met have read it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 11:01:02 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2016, 12:44:33 AM »
C'mon, Mina. We're all pulling for you, mate.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 12:48:13 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2016, 01:51:08 AM »
It does seem to me that there is more testimony for 1 Enoch besides the Epistle of Jude only, so I don't understand the laxidaisical attiutde.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 02:05:26 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Agabus

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2016, 10:48:49 AM »

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

I suppose that's my question. I get that pathological converts and inquirers get obsessed with reading all these books from the Bible that weren't on their radar or were outright forbidden before, but does anyone in the actual Ethiopian church read them? Do they have any real impact use in the life of the church itself?

Many people I've met have read it.

Oriental Orthodox -- and specifically Ethiopian -- people?
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2016, 08:59:53 PM »

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

I suppose that's my question. I get that pathological converts and inquirers get obsessed with reading all these books from the Bible that weren't on their radar or were outright forbidden before, but does anyone in the actual Ethiopian church read them? Do they have any real impact use in the life of the church itself?

Many people I've met have read it.

Oriental Orthodox -- and specifically Ethiopian -- people?

No. I think there is one commentary written on it, but it's just out of my price range.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2016, 01:27:09 AM »
You just partially answered the question! Lol!

I did and I didn't. Do you feel this topic is prejudicial against Oriental Orthodox? I would be happy to have it moved to a more suitable place. I do feel that it has a wider application.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 01:33:56 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2016, 10:06:12 PM »
 :)

I was thinking about this thing today. I'll call it a "thing", and not an "issue", a "problem", or a "dilemna" (although I considered all three.)
Anyway I was wondering: According to Amillenialism, what happens, exacty? And are there any theories what the locust-like things are?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2016, 02:58:25 PM »
So what do you think, MCarmichael -- with the news of the planned Mars colonization -- will the dead on Mars be resurrected?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2016, 03:34:50 PM »
So what do you think, MCarmichael -- with the news of the planned Mars colonization -- will the dead on Mars be resurrected?

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2016, 10:44:46 PM »
So what do you think, MCarmichael -- with the news of the planned Mars colonization -- will the dead on Mars be resurrected?

That's a funny question. Perhaps it isn't mentioned because nobody dies on Mars.   :'(
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2016, 03:46:49 AM »
I guess the issue, as has been noted here already, is that the universal Orthodox belief is that all the dead will be resurrected. Even at the time of St Irenaeus this was an aspect of the faith that he put in his pretty credal statement of the substance of the Christian doctrine.

So it is a dogmatic and therefore to a very great extent non-negotiable position for Orthodoxy. We can explain and explore and reflect but it does not seem to me that we can deny it.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2016, 02:25:31 PM »


I very much admire how the Armenians recite the Niceness Creed using language which is extremely clear and precise; I think the Creed was better translated into Armenian than into any other tongue, and the best English translations stem from this.

~

Mina raises a valid point also.  The Ethiopian church is a marvelous church, the largest church in Oriental Orthodoxy by far, with 40 million members, as many as the rest put together.  They are to us what the Russians are to Eastern Oethodoxy, and like Russian Old Rite Orthodox, they are fiercely traditional and stand in church for incredibly long vigils lasting up to 40 hours straight.  During the famines that plagued Ethiopia and the horrors of the Communist Derg regime which overthrew Emperor Haile Selassie, who was crowned with martyrdom just like Czar Nicholas II, it was the Ethiopian church which sustained the people through faith.

Unfortunately right now we do not have any "cradle" EOs active and our resident expert A to ions Nikolas hasn't been around of late.  The Ethiopian Church is the least well documented and most poorly understood of the Oriental churches; there are lots of Syriologists and Egyptologists who can read Syriac and Coptic and study the history of those churches, and the Armenians have fantastic scholarship, but there are very few "Abyssiniologosts" or a Western scholars with a deep knowledge of Geez.  I think that al oat every apparently dissonant aspect of the Ethiopian church that seems at odds with normal OO practice is actually the result of a lack of clear information; they claim to have the Ark of the Covenant and a wing of the Cross, but in claiming to have the Ark, and in using replicas of it in lieu of the wooden tablets my church uses as antimensions, it is difficult precisely to understand how they communicate the Ark in the economy of salvation.

Their liturgy is poorly and incompletely translated.  Their anaphorae are broadly speaking Amtiochene, the Anaphora of the Apostles is the same as that found in the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus and is almost...prototypical, but others like the Anaphora of the Virgin Mary, which is prayed mostly to Mary except for the consecrating portions, are unusual. 

My point is, we know the Ethiopian Church shares our faith and preaches the Gospel and does a marvelous job at it.  What we do not clearly understand is how they do it, for although they were historically a part of the Coptic Church, there is a huge difference between Copric and Ethiopic Christianity.

Most Western inquirers tend to get fascinated by superficial aspects, like the use of drums, the apparent liturgical dancing (which is scarcely dancing and more of a movement back and forth), the use of colourful umbrellas to protect the Eucharist, relics and icons, and the huge array of unusual Old Testament apocrypha in the Ethiopic canons, both the broad and narrow, but especially the broad canon.

But to the extent these things exist, I believe they are derived from Ethiopic Judaism, the Beta Israel, which has the same canon of the Old Testament, sans the new, and a Levitical priesthood which performs sacrifices and is structured very much like the Ethiopian one. 

These differences are superficial; what matters is the canonical Ethiopian church preaches the same gospel as the other OO churches.  unfortunately some Westerners have been attracted to it and have been lured into joining schismatic, non-canonical sects or even completely unrelated cults that take the name but are basically variations on the heretical Ras Tafarian religion.

So I think if anyone is truly interested in Ethiopian Christianity, they should go to Ethiopia and see it, or failing that, find a canonical Ethiopian parish in communion with the Patriarch of Ethiopia, one where the majority of the parishioners are Ethiopians and not Carribean or American converts, and talk at length with the priests and try to grasp it.

I think many might be disappointed to find that the Ethiopian Church is in fact totally Orthodox when they were in fact looking for some kind of radically different Christianity, some marijuana-smoking, apocrypha-centered pseudo-Gnostic sect with radically different interpretations of everything, in which case they would probably be more at home spiritually in a place like the Ecclesia Gnoatica or an emergent church.  Because the Ethiopian church, while it does accept 1 Enoch as canonical, clearly preaches the same Gospel, so to the extent 1 Enoch appears to contradict the faith of the Coptic church from which the Ethiopian church became autocephalous, we should say that 1 Enoch, as deutero or trial-canonical, though quoted by St. Jude, may be slightly corrupt or in error in some minor details and the Ethiopian clergy probably correct for this when asked to the extent needed.  The Ethiopian church rejects marijuana, rejects the Gnostic Gospels, and very clearly practices the same faith as the rest of us, differing only in their immeasurable piety and dedication.

That is what we should focus on in the Ethiopian church: starving, impoverished Christians who pour into churches, standing elbow to elbow for more than a day chanting and singing and practicing and living the Gospel.  That is the unique miracle, and apparent inconsistencies in 1 Enoch are irrelevant distractions.

Do you think an Englishman could do this more effectively in Jamaica than anywhere else? Be honest.

What does Jamaica have to do with anything?

The jury is still out by the way on the success of Ethiopian Orthodoxy vs. the Rastas in Jamaica, although that is off topic; I would regret that at present we don't really have any active posters from the canonical Ethiopian church, but rather from the Abun Yeshaq branch, which I think is now without bishops, so I have no idea what is going on there.

Here is what is for certain: the Ethiopian Church includes in its canon, I believe for the sake of completeness, works like 1 Enoch amd the Didascalia, which are not found elsewhere.  However, they preach the same Gospel as the other Orthodox churches.  These books in question although canonical are obscure.  There are many aspects of the Ethiopian church that are obscure, startling or disconcerting, for example, their apparent posession of the Ark of the Covenant.  Do they really have the Ark, or was this some ancient Ethiopian Imperial propaganda?  Who knows; the Patriarch himself is not allowed to see it.  But the average Ethiopian priest, and the average Ethiopian laic, are normal Christians, completely devoted to Christ and willimg to stand in church for services of extreme length that rival the Holy Week vigils of the Russian Old Believers.

Regarding the resurrection of the dead, Father Peter is of course correct, amd there can be no doubt that what the Ethiopian church teaches is completely in line with Orthodox doctrine.  Otherwise, the other Oriental churches would have broken communion with them.  The only place where one might possibly find heterodox views on tje subject are in some of the non-canonical breakaway groups like the followers of Abune Yeshaq; they might be Orthodox, but they might not, and we cannot easily answer that question because for whatever reason they are not in communion with the other Oriental churches.

Within Orthodoxy, Eucharistic communiom functions like a chain of trust, so that to the extent different churches in different communions are in communion with each other, it validates that the dogma and canonical practices of that communion are in effect.

The general resurrection of all dead humans is a sine qua non of Orthodoxy; it is established in the Old Testament, in Ezekiel and elsewhere, and was believed in by the Pharisees, but it was our Lord who explaimed what would occur.  And this event although it may seem distant, is for us perhaps close at hand in light of our own mortality; we reject soul sleep, but who can say how time passes in A raham's Bossom?
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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2016, 07:49:27 PM »
I'm not sure why it seems so important to me. I'm told that "The Similitudes is the section that seems to reflect aspects of Christianity and may only have been added in the Christian era." It was not found at Q'umran, however this passage we're discussing isn't found in that section.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2016, 10:02:29 PM »
:)

I was thinking about this thing today. I'll call it a "thing", and not an "issue", a "problem", or a "dilemna" (although I considered all three.)
Anyway I was wondering: According to Amillenialism, what happens, exacty? And are there any theories what the locust-like things are?

It's like perhaps the ETOC keeps 1 Enoch around for the same reason the Protoevangelium of James is still around, which I'm told is not accepted outright. That it's been corrupted.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2016, 08:18:43 PM »
Perhaps it's enough to know that this text was commended for it's piety, if you may interpret St. Jude's reference so? Or is it more like "even a stopped clock is right twice a day"? It doesn't seem so to me, as he's using it to support his argument, rather than to counter something; but maybe there's more to it, idk.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 08:38:23 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2016, 09:57:24 PM »
Perhaps it's enough to know that this text was commended for it's piety, if you may interpret St. Jude's reference so? Or is it more like "even a stopped clock is right twice a day"? It doesn't seem so to me, as he's using it to support his argument, rather than to counter something; but maybe there's more to it, idk.

Well, yes, pious edification is "the point" of scriptures ("scripture" is a word that means "writing," by the way; we easily expect more of it than it deserves, we English-speakers burdened with the Latinate). St. Paul to St. Timothy: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." In other words, all writing that is worthy of Christian veneration will be useful for teaching the Christian, by offering dogma, by correcting misapprehensions thereof, by correcting the soul, by teaching what is just (righteous) -- and this makes for a completed ("perfect") Christian, well-equipped to go about the Christian's duty of joining with God in good works.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2016, 10:09:36 PM »
I'm saying he isn't using the passage to dispute some specificially Enochian tradition, afaik.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2016, 08:51:01 PM »
Okay, look: Here is another illustration from the Apocalypse:

Do you remember how there is a scary sea monster? And how everyone who worships the scary sea monster or anyone who "takes his mark" basically is condemned?

Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back from that, in other words.

*punctuation

re-visiting my history here, still struggling with some very Protestant prejudices, obviously, but doesn't it follow that if someone can do something to merit eternal destruction, that it hadn't been merited already?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2016, 09:48:08 PM »
Okay, look: Here is another illustration from the Apocalypse:

Do you remember how there is a scary sea monster? And how everyone who worships the scary sea monster or anyone who "takes his mark" basically is condemned?

Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back from that, in other words.

*punctuation


re-visiting my history here, still struggling with some very Protestant prejudices, obviously, but doesn't it follow that if someone can do something to merit eternal destruction, that it hadn't been merited already?

What he would merit is punishment in eternal wrath, and we all already merit that.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 09:49:03 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2016, 09:50:01 PM »

What he would merit is punishment in eternal wrath, and we all already merit that.

Did you mean death (ie. "the wages of sin is death")?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2016, 11:49:55 PM »

What he would merit is punishment in eternal wrath, and we all already merit that.

Did you mean death (ie. "the wages of sin is death")?

Nope. And I'm not inclined to keep going around in circles. Hell, after death, is Christian teaching in any major tradition. I'm curious -- were you a Jehovah's Witness?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2016, 09:52:28 AM »

Did you mean death (ie. "the wages of sin is death")?

Nope. And I'm not inclined to keep going around in circles. Hell, after death, is Christian teaching in any major tradition. I'm curious -- were you a Jehovah's Witness?

We seem to have strayed from the discussion, anyhow. I was raised fundamental Protestant, Porter.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2016, 12:38:11 AM »

Did you mean death (ie. "the wages of sin is death")?

Nope. And I'm not inclined to keep going around in circles. Hell, after death, is Christian teaching in any major tradition. I'm curious -- were you a Jehovah's Witness?

We seem to have strayed from the discussion, anyhow. I was raised fundamental Protestant, Porter.

If you intention for the discussion was "annihilation after death is legit, right, guys?", then, yes, perhaps the topic strayed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2016, 03:36:39 PM »

If you intention for the discussion was "annihilation after death is legit, right, guys?", then, yes, perhaps the topic strayed.

That's never been the topic, but it's okay, we can get back to the topic later.
How about this tradition that our Adversary sinned long before he tempted Eve in the garden of Eden? How "Orthodox" is that one?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2016, 04:55:35 PM »

If you intention for the discussion was "annihilation after death is legit, right, guys?", then, yes, perhaps the topic strayed.

That's never been the topic, but it's okay, we can get back to the topic later.
How about this tradition that our Adversary sinned long before he tempted Eve in the garden of Eden? How "Orthodox" is that one?

I thought that was the standard line, that the angels fell before the creation of man.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2016, 06:51:15 PM »

If you intention for the discussion was "annihilation after death is legit, right, guys?", then, yes, perhaps the topic strayed.

That's never been the topic, but it's okay, we can get back to the topic later.
How about this tradition that our Adversary sinned long before he tempted Eve in the garden of Eden? How "Orthodox" is that one?

I thought that was the standard line, that the angels fell before the creation of man.

To what degree is it dogmatized?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2016, 10:42:49 AM »
Probably not at all, it's just the most common opinion I've encountered in literature on the subject.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2016, 12:04:41 PM »
I haven't heard about the opposite. Satan couldn't have tempted Adam and Eve if it hadn't fallen.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2016, 01:52:46 AM »
I haven't heard about the opposite. Satan couldn't have tempted Adam and Eve if it hadn't fallen.

Yet it was in the garden that it was cursed. In paradise, no?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2016, 12:13:54 PM »
I haven't heard about the opposite. Satan couldn't have tempted Adam and Eve if it hadn't fallen.

Yet it was in the garden that it was cursed. In paradise, no?
Yeah.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2016, 10:14:47 PM »

Well, yes, pious edification is "the point" of scriptures ("scripture" is a word that means "writing," by the way; we easily expect more of it than it deserves, we English-speakers burdened with the Latinate). St. Paul to St. Timothy: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." In other words, all writing that is worthy of Christian veneration will be useful for teaching the Christian, by offering dogma, by correcting misapprehensions thereof, by correcting the soul, by teaching what is just (righteous) -- and this makes for a completed ("perfect") Christian, well-equipped to go about the Christian's duty of joining with God in good works.

Isn't it about time that somebody added 1 Enoch to the Apocrypha, don't you think? I understand that it's an "open" canon...
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2017, 09:50:08 PM »
So I got a book that somebody recommended. It noted how "Death and Hades" are thrown into hell "whole", or "like a fleshpot".
I think more attention ought to be paid to this issue, tbh.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2017, 09:51:12 PM »
So I got a book that somebody recommended. It noted how "Death and Hades" are thrown into hell "whole", or "like a fleshpot".
I think more attention ought to be paid to this issue, tbh.

We're trying to pay attention to Jesus.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2017, 09:54:43 PM »
Besides, we all know that the Apocalypse isn't meant to be taken literally.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2017, 11:12:23 PM »
Besides, we all know that the Apocalypse isn't meant to be taken literally.
When you consider that, and then consider that you wouldn't necessarily draw the conclusion from either 1 Enoch or the remainder of Scripture, that the spirits of the dead *aren't necessarily "unawares" of their condition, along with other things, idk.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 11:17:05 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus