Author Topic: Will all of the dead be resurrected?  (Read 3840 times)

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Offline mcarmichael

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Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« on: August 09, 2016, 12:56:39 AM »
According to the Ethiopian text of 1 Enoch, there are four places for the dead, and some of them aren't resurrected.

From David (Psalm 17: 13,14)
Quote
"Arise, O Lord,
Confront him, cast him down;
Deliver my life from the wicked with Your sword,
14 With Your hand from men, O Lord,
From men of the world who have their portion in this life,
And whose belly You fill with Your hidden treasure.
They are satisfied with children,
And leave the rest of their possession for their babes.

From Daniel (12:2):

Quote
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Where does the tradition that all of the dead will be resurrected come from?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 06:26:27 AM »
You just partially answered the question! Lol!

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2016, 06:47:12 AM »
Can you post the text from Enoch?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2016, 09:23:57 AM »
You just partially answered the question! Lol!

 ;)

Can you post the text from Enoch?

 ;) ;)
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 03:12:46 PM »
Can you post the text from Enoch?

Nope. I tried taking a screenshot and then I could (*not) figure out how to use it here. Here is the page I use, though: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 03:28:42 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2016, 03:23:47 PM »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2016, 04:18:52 PM »
Can you post the text from Enoch?

Nope. I tried taking a screenshot and then I could (*not) figure out how to use it here. Here is the page I use, though: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm
hmmm...well, some of the Ethiopian posters who used to comment on Enoch are not here at the moment it seems, so I can't answer how this can be interpreted.

The text is also confusing as well anyway.  I'm not sure you can clearly say that there is a denial of the Resurrection in it to begin with when it is incomplete 

The fact remains, the Ethiopian church, like any other OO Church, and like any other ancient church, shares a common Nicean-Constantinopolitan faith, which professes "we look for the resurrection of the dead".  So all OO believe this.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 04:20:56 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2016, 04:32:01 PM »
...."we look for the resurrection of the dead".  So all OO believe this.

I'm not OO....but, the whole time I was waiting for someone to mention this.  ;)
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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2016, 05:20:29 PM »
All the dead will be resurrected it is specific. I am reading this book now and another that I found on that page. "The first book of Adam and Eve". It looks great. When it was written? It has so many prophecies. Sorry for my question because it has no relation with the subject of the thread.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2016, 07:32:16 PM »
All the dead will be resurrected it is specific. I am reading this book now and another that I found on that page. "The first book of Adam and Eve". It looks great. When it was written? It has so many prophecies. Sorry for my question because it has no relation with the subject of the thread.
be very cautious with what you're reading (including Enoch).  Not every OO accepts these books like the Ethiopian Church.  We still don't have enough research on how our sister church actually interprets these books.

As for the book you mention, I honestly do not know anything about it accept that this was a late post-Christ work
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2016, 09:39:04 PM »
All the dead will be resurrected it is specific. I am reading this book now and another that I found on that page. "The first book of Adam and Eve". It looks great. When it was written? It has so many prophecies. Sorry for my question because it has no relation with the subject of the thread.

What is specific? 1 Enoch speaks of a general resurrection in the same passage, so....
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 09:57:18 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2016, 02:13:58 AM »
All the dead will be resurrected it is specific. I am reading this book now and another that I found on that page. "The first book of Adam and Eve". It looks great. When it was written? It has so many prophecies. Sorry for my question because it has no relation with the subject of the thread.

According to this:

https://archive.org/details/firstbook_adameve_1001_librivox

It's fifth/sixth century AD.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 02:14:15 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Aram

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2016, 07:27:38 AM »

The fact remains, the Ethiopian church, like any other OO Church, and like any other ancient church, shares a common Nicean-Constantinopolitan faith, which professes "we look for the resurrection of the dead".  So all OO believe this.
The Armenian text renders this as "We believe... in the resurrection of the dead." There's no "I/We look for the resurrection of the dead." Small detail.

Offline wgw

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2016, 08:52:59 AM »

The fact remains, the Ethiopian church, like any other OO Church, and like any other ancient church, shares a common Nicean-Constantinopolitan faith, which professes "we look for the resurrection of the dead".  So all OO believe this.
The Armenian text renders this as "We believe... in the resurrection of the dead." There's no "I/We look for the resurrection of the dead." Small detail.

I very much admire how the Armenians recite the Niceness Creed using language which is extremely clear and precise; I think the Creed was better translated into Armenian than into any other tongue, and the best English translations stem from this.

~

Mina raises a valid point also.  The Ethiopian church is a marvelous church, the largest church in Oriental Orthodoxy by far, with 40 million members, as many as the rest put together.  They are to us what the Russians are to Eastern Oethodoxy, and like Russian Old Rite Orthodox, they are fiercely traditional and stand in church for incredibly long vigils lasting up to 40 hours straight.  During the famines that plagued Ethiopia and the horrors of the Communist Derg regime which overthrew Emperor Haile Selassie, who was crowned with martyrdom just like Czar Nicholas II, it was the Ethiopian church which sustained the people through faith.

Unfortunately right now we do not have any "cradle" EOs active and our resident expert A to ions Nikolas hasn't been around of late.  The Ethiopian Church is the least well documented and most poorly understood of the Oriental churches; there are lots of Syriologists and Egyptologists who can read Syriac and Coptic and study the history of those churches, and the Armenians have fantastic scholarship, but there are very few "Abyssiniologosts" or a Western scholars with a deep knowledge of Geez.  I think that al oat every apparently dissonant aspect of the Ethiopian church that seems at odds with normal OO practice is actually the result of a lack of clear information; they claim to have the Ark of the Covenant and a wing of the Cross, but in claiming to have the Ark, and in using replicas of it in lieu of the wooden tablets my church uses as antimensions, it is difficult precisely to understand how they communicate the Ark in the economy of salvation.

Their liturgy is poorly and incompletely translated.  Their anaphorae are broadly speaking Amtiochene, the Anaphora of the Apostles is the same as that found in the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus and is almost...prototypical, but others like the Anaphora of the Virgin Mary, which is prayed mostly to Mary except for the consecrating portions, are unusual. 

My point is, we know the Ethiopian Church shares our faith and preaches the Gospel and does a marvelous job at it.  What we do not clearly understand is how they do it, for although they were historically a part of the Coptic Church, there is a huge difference between Copric and Ethiopic Christianity.

Most Western inquirers tend to get fascinated by superficial aspects, like the use of drums, the apparent liturgical dancing (which is scarcely dancing and more of a movement back and forth), the use of colourful umbrellas to protect the Eucharist, relics and icons, and the huge array of unusual Old Testament apocrypha in the Ethiopic canons, both the broad and narrow, but especially the broad canon.

But to the extent these things exist, I believe they are derived from Ethiopic Judaism, the Beta Israel, which has the same canon of the Old Testament, sans the new, and a Levitical priesthood which performs sacrifices and is structured very much like the Ethiopian one. 

These differences are superficial; what matters is the canonical Ethiopian church preaches the same gospel as the other OO churches.  unfortunately some Westerners have been attracted to it and have been lured into joining schismatic, non-canonical sects or even completely unrelated cults that take the name but are basically variations on the heretical Ras Tafarian religion.

So I think if anyone is truly interested in Ethiopian Christianity, they should go to Ethiopia and see it, or failing that, find a canonical Ethiopian parish in communion with the Patriarch of Ethiopia, one where the majority of the parishioners are Ethiopians and not Carribean or American converts, and talk at length with the priests and try to grasp it.

I think many might be disappointed to find that the Ethiopian Church is in fact totally Orthodox when they were in fact looking for some kind of radically different Christianity, some marijuana-smoking, apocrypha-centered pseudo-Gnostic sect with radically different interpretations of everything, in which case they would probably be more at home spiritually in a place like the Ecclesia Gnoatica or an emergent church.  Because the Ethiopian church, while it does accept 1 Enoch as canonical, clearly preaches the same Gospel, so to the extent 1 Enoch appears to contradict the faith of the Coptic church from which the Ethiopian church became autocephalous, we should say that 1 Enoch, as deutero or trial-canonical, though quoted by St. Jude, may be slightly corrupt or in error in some minor details and the Ethiopian clergy probably correct for this when asked to the extent needed.  The Ethiopian church rejects marijuana, rejects the Gnostic Gospels, and very clearly practices the same faith as the rest of us, differing only in their immeasurable piety and dedication.

That is what we should focus on in the Ethiopian church: starving, impoverished Christians who pour into churches, standing elbow to elbow for more than a day chanting and singing and practicing and living the Gospel.  That is the unique miracle, and apparent inconsistencies in 1 Enoch are irrelevant distractions.
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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2016, 08:56:19 AM »
...."we look for the resurrection of the dead".  So all OO believe this.

I'm not OO....but, the whole time I was waiting for someone to mention this.  ;)

You may not be OO, but you might as well be; I have seen no post of yours on the forum which could not be accepted on a pan-Orthodox level, so perhaps we should consider you an honorary member.  :)

Btw I miss Salpy.  She was like your Armenian soul-twin. :(
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2016, 10:41:31 AM »
I really wish Hiwot were still posting.
Quote
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2016, 07:21:23 PM »

Because the Ethiopian church, while it does accept 1 Enoch as canonical, clearly preaches the same Gospel, so to the extent 1 Enoch appears to contradict the faith of the Coptic church from which the Ethiopian church became autocephalous, we should say that 1 Enoch, as deutero or trial-canonical, though quoted by St. Jude, may be slightly corrupt or in error in some minor details and the Ethiopian clergy probably correct for this when asked to the extent needed.  The Ethiopian church rejects marijuana, rejects the Gnostic Gospels, and very clearly practices the same faith as the rest of us, differing only in their immeasurable piety and dedication.


I don't see what the harm in studying it in more depth might be. If a lot of people are interested in it, you might use it as a tool to bring people into the church.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2016, 07:57:24 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 07:57:41 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2016, 08:04:55 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.

Is it too fantastical?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2016, 08:20:25 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.

Is it too fantastical?

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2016, 10:43:34 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.

Is it too fantastical?

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

That's not necessarily a good thing.   :-*

*steps off of soapbox
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 10:54:53 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2016, 11:17:15 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.

Is it too fantastical?

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

That's not necessarily a good thing.   :-*

*steps off of soapbox

It's neither good or bad.  It's unnecessary.  You have the Bible.  That and the Church tradition are enough.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 11:45:43 PM »
Are you targeting pseudoepigraphal scholars for evangelism?  Because I don't see how the Book of Enoch would make sense in the real world.

Is it too fantastical?

That's not my point.  In the real world, no one I know reads it.

That's not necessarily a good thing.   :-*

*steps off of soapbox

It's neither good or bad.  It's unnecessary.  You have the Bible.  That and the Church tradition are enough.

I'm Old Protestant, bro. My parents were Evangelical and I was raised Evangelical.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2016, 12:00:47 AM »
Then why on earth are you spending time with Enoch?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2016, 12:14:22 AM »
Then why on earth are you spending time with Enoch?

I think it's fascinating how it's been recently "rediscovered", etc & al.

Also, the issue from the OP.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 12:15:22 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2016, 12:21:04 AM »
Did I give you a headache? Forgive me.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2016, 12:22:48 AM »
One thing I find weird about the book is that it implies that all human knowledge, arts, and sciences are in fact the result of teaching by falling angels.

Given that knowledge and industry has been beneficial to humans, one wonders why if these angels are fallen, why would they have wanted to help humans? The idea also seems more than a little anti-intellectual (or else misanthropic). It does remind me of the Greek myth of Prometheus, though.

The Muggletonians, reportedly, loved the book and included it as a key part of their canon, even while rejecting parts of the OT. Given their own anti-intellectual views (which were hypocritical, given that the movement was made up mostly of educated people), one can definitely see the appeal.
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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2016, 12:32:38 AM »
Did I give you a headache? Forgive me.

No not at all.  Just curious. :)
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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2016, 12:54:37 AM »
I really wish Hiwot were still posting.

+1
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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2016, 01:43:41 AM »


I very much admire how the Armenians recite the Niceness Creed using language which is extremely clear and precise; I think the Creed was better translated into Armenian than into any other tongue, and the best English translations stem from this.

~

Mina raises a valid point also.  The Ethiopian church is a marvelous church, the largest church in Oriental Orthodoxy by far, with 40 million members, as many as the rest put together.  They are to us what the Russians are to Eastern Oethodoxy, and like Russian Old Rite Orthodox, they are fiercely traditional and stand in church for incredibly long vigils lasting up to 40 hours straight.  During the famines that plagued Ethiopia and the horrors of the Communist Derg regime which overthrew Emperor Haile Selassie, who was crowned with martyrdom just like Czar Nicholas II, it was the Ethiopian church which sustained the people through faith.

Unfortunately right now we do not have any "cradle" EOs active and our resident expert A to ions Nikolas hasn't been around of late.  The Ethiopian Church is the least well documented and most poorly understood of the Oriental churches; there are lots of Syriologists and Egyptologists who can read Syriac and Coptic and study the history of those churches, and the Armenians have fantastic scholarship, but there are very few "Abyssiniologosts" or a Western scholars with a deep knowledge of Geez.  I think that al oat every apparently dissonant aspect of the Ethiopian church that seems at odds with normal OO practice is actually the result of a lack of clear information; they claim to have the Ark of the Covenant and a wing of the Cross, but in claiming to have the Ark, and in using replicas of it in lieu of the wooden tablets my church uses as antimensions, it is difficult precisely to understand how they communicate the Ark in the economy of salvation.

Their liturgy is poorly and incompletely translated.  Their anaphorae are broadly speaking Amtiochene, the Anaphora of the Apostles is the same as that found in the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus and is almost...prototypical, but others like the Anaphora of the Virgin Mary, which is prayed mostly to Mary except for the consecrating portions, are unusual. 

My point is, we know the Ethiopian Church shares our faith and preaches the Gospel and does a marvelous job at it.  What we do not clearly understand is how they do it, for although they were historically a part of the Coptic Church, there is a huge difference between Copric and Ethiopic Christianity.

Most Western inquirers tend to get fascinated by superficial aspects, like the use of drums, the apparent liturgical dancing (which is scarcely dancing and more of a movement back and forth), the use of colourful umbrellas to protect the Eucharist, relics and icons, and the huge array of unusual Old Testament apocrypha in the Ethiopic canons, both the broad and narrow, but especially the broad canon.

But to the extent these things exist, I believe they are derived from Ethiopic Judaism, the Beta Israel, which has the same canon of the Old Testament, sans the new, and a Levitical priesthood which performs sacrifices and is structured very much like the Ethiopian one. 

These differences are superficial; what matters is the canonical Ethiopian church preaches the same gospel as the other OO churches.  unfortunately some Westerners have been attracted to it and have been lured into joining schismatic, non-canonical sects or even completely unrelated cults that take the name but are basically variations on the heretical Ras Tafarian religion.

So I think if anyone is truly interested in Ethiopian Christianity, they should go to Ethiopia and see it, or failing that, find a canonical Ethiopian parish in communion with the Patriarch of Ethiopia, one where the majority of the parishioners are Ethiopians and not Carribean or American converts, and talk at length with the priests and try to grasp it.

I think many might be disappointed to find that the Ethiopian Church is in fact totally Orthodox when they were in fact looking for some kind of radically different Christianity, some marijuana-smoking, apocrypha-centered pseudo-Gnostic sect with radically different interpretations of everything, in which case they would probably be more at home spiritually in a place like the Ecclesia Gnoatica or an emergent church.  Because the Ethiopian church, while it does accept 1 Enoch as canonical, clearly preaches the same Gospel, so to the extent 1 Enoch appears to contradict the faith of the Coptic church from which the Ethiopian church became autocephalous, we should say that 1 Enoch, as deutero or trial-canonical, though quoted by St. Jude, may be slightly corrupt or in error in some minor details and the Ethiopian clergy probably correct for this when asked to the extent needed.  The Ethiopian church rejects marijuana, rejects the Gnostic Gospels, and very clearly practices the same faith as the rest of us, differing only in their immeasurable piety and dedication.

That is what we should focus on in the Ethiopian church: starving, impoverished Christians who pour into churches, standing elbow to elbow for more than a day chanting and singing and practicing and living the Gospel.  That is the unique miracle, and apparent inconsistencies in 1 Enoch are irrelevant distractions.

Do you think an Englishman could do this more effectively in Jamaica than anywhere else? Be honest.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2016, 11:03:06 PM »
I read recently "The Apocalypse" by Archbishop Averky Taushev & Father Seraphim Rose, which it seems is essentially a translation (with commentary) of a commentary by Arch. Averky Taushev based upon the commentary of St. Andrew of Caesarae, which itself seems to be a collation of various Patristic sources, etc. However, none of it seems to be very conclusive, besides Fr. Seraphim Rose's comment on Chapter 20 verse 13: "The meaning here is that all men, without exception, will be resurrected and stand before God's Judgement."

Could we just take one more look at it, though? Because I was raised in a quasi-Calvinist church, and I was able to project all sorts of things into these passages which I'm now able to filter somewhat, if that makes sense.

I suppose, however, my legitimate next step would be to find a commentary on the one commentary that's been written on 1 Enoch, which I promise to do ASAP.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 11:04:10 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2016, 09:02:04 PM »

Could we just take one more look at it, though? Because I was raised in a quasi-Calvinist church, and I was able to project all sorts of things into these passages which I'm now able to filter somewhat, if that makes sense.


It's too easy. What does it mean, "The Sea gave up it's dead", or whatever it actually says? It's a lot of symbolism right there.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2016, 10:13:17 PM »
Quote
What does it mean, "The Sea gave up it's dead", or whatever it actually says?

I see why people are reluctant to speculate, but if I were to speculate, this is how I would speculate:

That "The Sea" represents the living (whatever that means.)
"Death and Hades" is problematic. Are there people in "Death"? Vis a vis. Both are cast into hell. Both are destroyed. Both are condemned, essentially. This is also very symbolic.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 10:34:22 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2016, 03:13:41 PM »
Quote
What does it mean, "The Sea gave up it's dead", or whatever it actually says?

I see why people are reluctant to speculate, but if I were to speculate, this is how I would speculate:

That "The Sea" represents the living (whatever that means.)
"Death and Hades" is problematic. Are there people in "Death"? Vis a vis. Both are cast into hell. Both are destroyed. Both are condemned, essentially. This is also very symbolic.

Is it possible that both are true?

That Our Lord did indeed trample death by death, however that some of the dead will not be resurrected?

Because I could possible understand seeing "Death" (per Rev. 13) as a reference to both the solace of the wicked and the condemnation of the just, and then there are those according to the extant text "who received their punishment upon earth", and then the fourth category, those who did not receive their punishment upon earth, but are not resurrected. Who shall keep company with ungodly or something.

So the point is maybe it is somewhat in keeping with the Orthodox tradition, but that maybe Orthodoxy doesn't contain that absolute 100% fullness of truth, just yet?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 03:29:25 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2016, 04:18:15 PM »
There are other candidates for the oldest Biblical text, chronologically. Namely, has anyone ever googled "Who wrote Genesis?" To my surprise, Google returned a result! Try it!

Also, there are other books of the Bible which have been lost. For example, a book titled "The Acts of Solomon", and several prophets whose writings have been lost. There are several.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 06:54:58 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2016, 11:54:47 PM »
Okay, look: Here is another illustration from the Apocalypse:

Do you remember how there is a scary sea monster? And how everyone who worships the scary sea monster or anyone who "takes his mark" basically is condemned?

Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back from that, in other words.

*punctuation
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 12:02:56 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Opus118

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2016, 01:12:46 AM »
I really wish Hiwot were still posting.

+1

+2 (or +10) she was inspirational.

She was also at the top of Asteriktos list in "I wish these people were still posting" thread.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2016, 01:04:32 PM »
Quote
What does it mean, "The Sea gave up it's dead", or whatever it actually says?

I see why people are reluctant to speculate, but if I were to speculate, this is how I would speculate:

That "The Sea" represents the living (whatever that means.)
"Death and Hades" is problematic. Are there people in "Death"? Vis a vis. Both are cast into hell. Both are destroyed. Both are condemned, essentially. This is also very symbolic.

It means sailors and others who died by drowning.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2016, 01:07:05 PM »
Okay, look: Here is another illustration from the Apocalypse:

Do you remember how there is a scary sea monster? And how everyone who worships the scary sea monster or anyone who "takes his mark" basically is condemned?

Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back from that, in other words.

*punctuation

"Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back ..." Your post is really jumping to conclusions. What makes you think condemnation is a permanent condition? and, then, what is your basis for saying this condition precludes resurrection? I don't think the logic is sound, or perhaps not there at all.

Ironically, the Revelation is the scripture most explicit in answering your original question. St. John says that there are two resurrections, one to eternal life and one to eternal death, and goes on with some insightful imagery of both.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2016, 01:13:31 PM »
Quote
What does it mean, "The Sea gave up it's dead", or whatever it actually says?

I see why people are reluctant to speculate, but if I were to speculate, this is how I would speculate:

That "The Sea" represents the living (whatever that means.)
"Death and Hades" is problematic. Are there people in "Death"? Vis a vis. Both are cast into hell. Both are destroyed. Both are condemned, essentially. This is also very symbolic.

"Death and Hades ... are there people in Death?" Why, yes there are: the dead. And how could resurrection be accomplished without the destruction of Death (the harvester of lives) and Hades (the captor of lives)? Again, it seems you've found a passage that should rather illuminate your question than cast further doubt.

I happily await the day you experience the Paschal-season service in which the congregation cries out, Hades "was embittered!" along with other memorable symbols of the risen Christ's defeat of Death and Hades and salvation of those in their hold.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2016, 06:05:33 PM »
Okay, look: Here is another illustration from the Apocalypse:

Do you remember how there is a scary sea monster? And how everyone who worships the scary sea monster or anyone who "takes his mark" basically is condemned?

Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back from that, in other words.

*punctuation

"Condemned is condemned. There is no coming back ..." Your post is really jumping to conclusions. What makes you think condemnation is a permanent condition? and, then, what is your basis for saying this condition precludes resurrection? I don't think the logic is sound, or perhaps not there at all.

Ironically, the Revelation is the scripture most explicit in answering your original question. St. John says that there are two resurrections, one to eternal life and one to eternal death, and goes on with some insightful imagery of both.

That's sort of the point. I'm attempting to poke holes in that assertion. It's certainly how it's understood by most ppl.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2016, 06:25:27 PM »
So your contention is that the author of the Revelation couldn't keep track of his own narrative and didn't know what he himself believed?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2016, 07:34:17 PM »
So your contention is that the author of the Revelation couldn't keep track of his own narrative and didn't know what he himself believed?

St. John the Revelator? Nay, nay. Wait a bit, you'll figure it out. ;)
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2016, 10:39:56 PM »
Quote
What does it mean, "The Sea gave up it's dead", or whatever it actually says?

I see why people are reluctant to speculate, but if I were to speculate, this is how I would speculate:

That "The Sea" represents the living (whatever that means.)
"Death and Hades" is problematic. Are there people in "Death"? Vis a vis. Both are cast into hell. Both are destroyed. Both are condemned, essentially. This is also very symbolic.

"Death and Hades ... are there people in Death?" Why, yes there are: the dead. And how could resurrection be accomplished without the destruction of Death (the harvester of lives) and Hades (the captor of lives)? Again, it seems you've found a passage that should rather illuminate your question than cast further doubt.

I happily await the day you experience the Paschal-season service in which the congregation cries out, Hades "was embittered!" along with other memorable symbols of the risen Christ's defeat of Death and Hades and salvation of those in their hold.

I might actually consider "Death" the collecting place of the souls of the righteous. I mean, it's literature. (*as I say that, though..) However I find it difficult to imagine that there are dead people in the sea.

Although you may be on to something, because both the "big" and "little" sea monster come out of the sea, which might presumably represent death, thus tying the three together, however it would be problematic in as much as it would seem somewut "idiosyncratic" (sp?)

*So according to what I suppose is being called "the Enochian tradition" (I'm just making stuff up, at this point), there are four places for the dead, okay? One for the righteous, one for the damned, and two other places, one of which is presumably more pleasant than the other, if for no other reason than it's better company.

I think that should catch you up, btw.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 11:02:43 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Will all of the dead be resurrected?
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2016, 11:24:58 PM »
Does that make sense? Like why would it say something like "everyone who ever died, and everyone who was in the grave, and also all of the dead in Atlanta, GA"? Doesn't that raise a lot more questions than it answers?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 11:37:58 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb