Author Topic: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church  (Read 32238 times)

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #585 on: January 13, 2017, 06:55:30 AM »
Might be true. But IMO the manner of reception doesn't depend on rational understanding of doctrine. It depend's on where the convert stands sacramental-wise and on that sense RCs and ECs IMO stand on the same line. Not too far from from Orthodoxy but still outside. By all means, receive Catholics by just confession and Eucharist but do it independent of whether converts speak Latin or Church Slavonic.
There's probably a couple factors at work. For one, I don't know if RCs even practice Chrismation, whereas Melkites do. So if your church requires Chrismation, then at the very least the RCs would need it in order to join your church.

Confirmation is the same thing. Confirmation is Chrismation is Confirmation.

It is strange to think that Melkites have some sort of special status.
They don't.
Only thing different is when they convert to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, Melkites don't get chrismated again.

Which is a special status.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #586 on: January 13, 2017, 09:41:08 AM »
If the priest is OK with you attending and receiving communion, that's all that matters.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #587 on: January 13, 2017, 11:41:10 AM »
They haven't really.  Mr Mor has the most sensible description.  The Melkite Church and RCC are different churches and with different theologies.

But the official position papers of your church - which rakovsky and others have introduced into this discussion - seem to contradict your personal opinion.  It is unreasonable for you to expect us to dismiss them on your say so.  You are a layman, and, by all indications, not a particularly erudite one at that.  Why should we give your words more weight than the official statements produced by your church?

Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   
The "Melkites" (like the Ukrainians etc.) are seen and treated not as a Vatican heretic outside of Orthodoxy as a whole but as a heretically tinged schismatic from the Patriarchate of Antioch (from the Patriarchate of Moscow, etc.) in particular.

This makes sense.  And I could agree to a different manner of receiving them given this understanding.  If it was simply a matter of having rite and certain other customs in common, Latin and Anglican heterodox could theoretically be received into Western Rite Orthodox parishes in the same informal way, but as you've pointed out, there's more to it than that.  That said, I still find urg's protestations that they are fully (small o) orthodox and free of the taint of any heterodox teaching or understanding unconvincing.

Might be true. But IMO the manner of reception doesn't depend on rational understanding of doctrine. It depend's on where the convert stands sacramental-wise and on that sense RCs and ECs IMO stand on the same line. Not too far from from Orthodoxy but still outside. By all means, receive Catholics by just confession and Eucharist but do it independent of whether converts speak Latin or Church Slavonic.
There's probably a couple factors at work. For one, I don't know if RCs even practice Chrismation, whereas Melkites do. So if your church requires Chrismation, then at the very least the RCs would need it in order to join your church.
For another, there is similarity of ritual forms (eg. the iconostasis) that probably loosens up some EO restrictive attitudes toward East Catholics
For a third, Melkites and other East Catholics typically at least used to be East Orthodox who rejected Rome, but then switched, sometimes due to R.C. political pressure. So there is a sense that if a church group is politically pressured into switching, then the switch was not as valid.

So there are different factors that probably make the EOs less demanding when it comes to receiving East Catholics.
But they definitely are considered to "convert" and the proper form is at least recitation of certain declarations of Orthodox respect for EO rules, teachings, bishops, etc.

It's not this thing where AOs teach Melkitism is Orthodox teaching and they will give regular communion to open Melkites who belong to Melkite parishes and go to normal confession & attend regularly, that FloridaGatorBait wants to paint it as but doesn't do a good job.

If someone actually respects Orthodoxy and wants to join, why wouldn't they want to join the proper way?

+1
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #588 on: January 13, 2017, 11:48:01 AM »
Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church". 

The quotes are gratuitous.  They are, indeed, part of the same church.  Full and unrestricted communion = part of the same church.  There is also, as rakovsky has demonstrated, unity of faith among the various parts of the Catholic Church.  Any Catholic theologian worth his salt will admit the same.

The quotes weren't gratuitous, I was quoting Alpo.  But I think there is a need to be more precise in these discussions.  Even by Catholic standards, Latins and Melkites are "part of the same church" and also "of different churches".  Our Church also regards them similarly, on the one hand recognising that both are not Orthodox but on the other admitting that there is a distinction between them that is not merely a legal fiction.

But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

This presupposes that there is indeed a difference in the proximity of the various parts of the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Faith.  I believe rakovsky and others have adequately demonstrated that there is not through the posting of the official documents of the Melkite church, urg's anecdotal protestations notwithstanding.
[/quote]

The usefulness of rakovsky's intervention was in showing that Melkites accept post-schism councils of the Roman Church as authoritative for themselves.  Similarly, I referred to the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches under which the Melkite Church operates to make a similar point about how their relationship with Rome is not as independent and non-consequential as urg8rb8 claims.  Nevertheless, there is a difference "in the proximity of the various parts of the Catholic Church" to the Orthodox Church.  Ignoring or denying that is not really helpful. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #589 on: January 13, 2017, 11:48:37 AM »
Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church". 

The quotes are gratuitous.  They are, indeed, part of the same church.  Full and unrestricted communion = part of the same church.  There is also, as rakovsky has demonstrated, unity of faith among the various parts of the Catholic Church.  Any Catholic theologian worth his salt will admit the same.

But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

This presupposes that there is indeed a difference in the proximity of the various parts of the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Faith.  I believe rakovsky and others have adequately demonstrated that there is not through the posting of the official documents of the Melkite church, urg's anecdotal protestations notwithstanding.

They haven't really.  Mr Mor has the most sensible description.  The Melkite Church and RCC are different churches

Yes and no.

Quote
and with different theologies.

Yes and no.

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #590 on: January 13, 2017, 11:52:58 AM »
Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

As for catechesis, I agree. Melkites probably need less teaching as they might understand some concepts more easily than RCs. Also, I don't oppose economy outright but IMO it should be applied similarly to both ECs and RCs when it comes to manner of reception. The transition is probably smoother to ECs as the culture is more similar but sacramentally-wise there's no difference between them and RC's.

It's not that melkites could understand it better... orthodox theology is taught in the Melkite church by the Melkite priests.

Might be true. But IMO the manner of reception doesn't depend on rational understanding of doctrine. It depend's on where the convert stands sacramental-wise and on that sense RCs and ECs IMO stand on the same line. Not too far from from Orthodoxy but still outside. By all means, receive Catholics by just confession and Eucharist but do it independent of whether converts speak Latin or Church Slavonic.

Are you referring to the 7 main sacraments?  If so, they are the same between the Melkite and AO churches.  But you make a good point regarding "additional sacraments" that may have been added after the Antiochian schism that may not be the same between the churches.  In that case it's important for someone who goes from one church to another to understand them.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #591 on: January 13, 2017, 11:55:16 AM »
Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

As for catechesis, I agree. Melkites probably need less teaching as they might understand some concepts more easily than RCs. Also, I don't oppose economy outright but IMO it should be applied similarly to both ECs and RCs when it comes to manner of reception. The transition is probably smoother to ECs as the culture is more similar but sacramentally-wise there's no difference between them and RC's.

Sacramentally there are differences.  The sacraments of initiation are conferred at the same time by Melkites, but over a period of years (and not always in the correct order) by Latins.  Marriages are ministered by the couple itself among Latins, with the bishop/priest (or deacon, or in mission territories some other officially sanctioned person) as a witness, whereas the Melkites and other Eastern Catholics share our faith and practice that it is the bishop/priest who confers the sacrament.  Those are some major sacramental differences, and they are treated differently.

For example, it's not hard to find a baptised, communed, but not confirmed Roman Catholic.  It would be much harder to find a Melkite in a similar circumstance.  Should the RC and the Melkite both be received by confession of faith and renunciation of errors, even if it means the RC is never confirmed?  Should they both be chrismated even if it means the Melkite is chrismated twice?  Unless you eliminate economy as an option, I don't see how these situations don't get treated differently. 

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #592 on: January 13, 2017, 11:55:56 AM »
Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   
The "Melkites" (like the Ukrainians etc.) are seen and treated not as a Vatican heretic outside of Orthodoxy as a whole but as a heretically tinged schismatic from the Patriarchate of Antioch (from the Patriarchate of Moscow, etc.) in particular.

Yes, I agree.

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #593 on: January 13, 2017, 11:56:02 AM »
Again, The Melkite Church has a different definition for communion.  Just because it's in communion with Rome doesn't mean they unite in faith.  And again, the Melkite Church teaches a different theology than Rome.  The proof is in the pudding.
Where is the "pudding"? Do you have statistical evidence that the majority of Melkite Priest and Bishops do NOT believe in the exclusive teachings of the RCC? Or did you just get that idea from your Priest and your parish? If the latter, then that is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is of very limited value, if any. It only proves what those few people believe; it does not prove that it is representative of Melkite Catholicism. Chances are, you and your Priest are in the very small minority, because you have to ask yourself why the official Melkite statements quoted by Rakovsky are up there, if that is not the norm in Melkite Catholic theology.

I've been to approx 10 different Melkite churchs in the US and the priests and/or decons all the same thing that I've already stated.  Also, the orthodox creed is recited during Liturgy.  Melkites are taught that those RCC dogmas are not accepted in Melkite faith.  Again, Melkite church doesn't see Communion with another church to also mean unity in faith.

Btw, I love my rice pudding with a dash of cinnamon on top.  So good!
It would seem not all is chocolate pudding in your bowel :o.

Someone above quoted your bishop's official "magisterial" position of your ecclesiastical community, and it's not what you just said. Or your 10 priests/deacons.

Like I said, the Melkite Church doesn't have a mutal inclusion between communion and faith when it comes to Melkite/RCC relationship.  Melkite church accepts the RCC's theological views but that doesn't mean it accepts it for itself.
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #594 on: January 13, 2017, 11:58:59 AM »
Might be true. But IMO the manner of reception doesn't depend on rational understanding of doctrine. It depend's on where the convert stands sacramental-wise and on that sense RCs and ECs IMO stand on the same line. Not too far from from Orthodoxy but still outside. By all means, receive Catholics by just confession and Eucharist but do it independent of whether converts speak Latin or Church Slavonic.
There's probably a couple factors at work. For one, I don't know if RCs even practice Chrismation, whereas Melkites do. So if your church requires Chrismation, then at the very least the RCs would need it in order to join your church.
For another, there is similarity of ritual forms (eg. the iconostasis) that probably loosens up some EO restrictive attitudes toward East Catholics
For a third, Melkites and other East Catholics typically at least used to be East Orthodox who rejected Rome, but then switched, sometimes due to R.C. political pressure. So there is a sense that if a church group is politically pressured into switching, then the switch was not as valid.

So there are different factors that probably make the EOs less demanding when it comes to receiving East Catholics.
But they definitely are considered to "convert" and the proper form is at least recitation of certain declarations of Orthodox respect for EO rules, teachings, bishops, etc.

It's not this thing where AOs teach Melkitism is Orthodox teaching and they will give regular communion to open Melkites who belong to Melkite parishes and go to normal confession & attend regularly, that FloridaGatorBait wants to paint it as but doesn't do a good job.

If someone actually respects Orthodoxy and wants to join, why wouldn't they want to join the proper way?

Apparently I did I did join the proper way (thanks again Mr Mor!) ;)

Btw, now you're putting "political" difference??? hahaha wow, you're starting to talk like me.  You should at least site your sources (ie me).  haha
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #595 on: January 13, 2017, 12:09:42 PM »
But one reason the Church probably has this rule...
about rejecting past teachings
...is because it doesn't want us to get things like the current situation where ex Melkites are teaching that Melkitism, with its ecumenical councils, is right belief.
+1

They haven't really.  Mr Mor has the most sensible description.  The Melkite Church and RCC are different churches and with different theologies.

But the official position papers of your church - which rakovsky and others have introduced into this discussion - seem to contradict your personal opinion.  It is unreasonable for you to expect us to dismiss them on your say so.  You are a layman, and, by all indications, not a particularly erudite one at that.  Why should we give your words more weight than the official statements produced by your church?
+1
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #596 on: January 13, 2017, 12:34:38 PM »
Kind of weird how you said you left Melkites because they were too "liberal", but your attitude about communion and orthodoxy is more liberal and unbridled than the Melkites', since they at least admit they teach the RC Councils' theology and don't intercommunion.

too "liberal"??? haha you're so funny. :)
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #597 on: January 13, 2017, 12:36:00 PM »
If an RC woman marries a Melkite and changes her rite to Melkite, she doesn't have to change her beliefs. An RC can receive communion at a Melkite church. An RC could go to a Melkite church for the rest of their life and participate fully while never changing their rite. It is strange to think that Melkites have some sort of special status.

Yes!!! I was thinking of this scenario!  In this situation, the RC woman shouldn't be able to go to a AOC without chrismation.
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #598 on: January 13, 2017, 12:38:31 PM »
It is strange to think that Melkites have some sort of special status.
They don't.
Only thing different is when they convert to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, Melkites don't get chrismated again.

Which means Melkites get a special treatment! ;)  I feel like I was treated in a special way. :)
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #599 on: January 13, 2017, 12:39:15 PM »
If the priest is OK with you attending and receiving communion, that's all that matters.

Thank you!  And the Metropolitan is completely ok with it too!
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #600 on: January 13, 2017, 12:44:02 PM »
Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

As for catechesis, I agree. Melkites probably need less teaching as they might understand some concepts more easily than RCs. Also, I don't oppose economy outright but IMO it should be applied similarly to both ECs and RCs when it comes to manner of reception. The transition is probably smoother to ECs as the culture is more similar but sacramentally-wise there's no difference between them and RC's.

Sacramentally there are differences.  The sacraments of initiation are conferred at the same time by Melkites, but over a period of years (and not always in the correct order) by Latins.  Marriages are ministered by the couple itself among Latins, with the bishop/priest (or deacon, or in mission territories some other officially sanctioned person) as a witness, whereas the Melkites and other Eastern Catholics share our faith and practice that it is the bishop/priest who confers the sacrament.  Those are some major sacramental differences, and they are treated differently.

For example, it's not hard to find a baptised, communed, but not confirmed Roman Catholic.  It would be much harder to find a Melkite in a similar circumstance.  Should the RC and the Melkite both be received by confession of faith and renunciation of errors, even if it means the RC is never confirmed?  Should they both be chrismated even if it means the Melkite is chrismated twice?  Unless you eliminate economy as an option, I don't see how these situations don't get treated differently.

I've seen the term "economy" used a few times here.  What does that mean?  When I see that word I'm always thinking about Austrian Economics and Mises (and all the other awesome Austrian economists).
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #601 on: January 13, 2017, 12:52:19 PM »
Economy means for the purposes of building up the "household of God" (oikos = house), the strict canonical rules are waived.

This is basically what the orthodox priest is doing for you, he is exercising economy in your situation. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:54:17 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #602 on: January 13, 2017, 12:52:40 PM »
The quotes weren't gratuitous, I was quoting Alpo.

Okay.  I thought the quotes were meant to indicate that articulating the truth that they are one church was only true from a certain perspective, but was not an absolute.  If that is the case, I disagree.  If two churches are in full communion, then they are one church, even with different administrative structures.  If the Melkites accept the post-schism councils of the Latin church as authoritative for themselves as rakovsky has demonstrated, then they are not "more orthodox than the Latins" in any sense, cultural similarities and similarities in worldview with their fellow Middle Easterners notwithstanding.  I like Isa's definition.  They are former Orthodox Christians who embraced the errors and heresies of Rome, and as such, fell away from Orthodoxy themselves.  It might be easier to restore them to the Church, but to pretend that by embracing the errors of and communion with the heterodox Pope of Rome that they did not become a full an integral part of his church in a spiritual and theological (if not administrative) sense is failing to acknowledge reality.

But I think there is a need to be more precise in these discussions.  Even by Catholic standards, Latins and Melkites are "part of the same church" and also "of different churches".  Our Church also regards them similarly, on the one hand recognising that both are not Orthodox but on the other admitting that there is a distinction between them that is not merely a legal fiction.

I understand the distinction - most especially as articulated by Isa a couple of posts ago - but I am not sure that I am comfortable in playing into the lie and the fiction that the Eastern Catholics are "Orthodox in communion with Rome" or as urg would have it, that "they teach orthodoxy" and "they are orthodox already".  If they accept the post-schism councils, this is not the case, and their acceptance of said councils cannot be brushed aside or dismissed while we pretend that their basic phronema is pretty much ours while they have also embraced the phronema of Rome in embracing its post-schism councils.  Full communion with the heterodox means that you are heterodox yourself.

The usefulness of rakovsky's intervention was in showing that Melkites accept post-schism councils of the Roman Church as authoritative for themselves. 

We agree on that point, but his intervention was useful for more than that.  He also demonstrated that urg flat out contradicted himself in his account of how the Antiochian priest in question was willing to receive him, something urg has thus far been unwilling to address, despite being asked directly to do so.

Similarly, I referred to the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches under which the Melkite Church operates to make a similar point about how their relationship with Rome is not as independent and non-consequential as urg8rb8 claims.  Nevertheless, there is a difference "in the proximity of the various parts of the Catholic Church" to the Orthodox Church.  Ignoring or denying that is not really helpful.

I don't think we can say that the Melkites or other Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than the Latins if they accept the theology of the Latins as articulated in their post-schism councils unless we are speaking strictly in terms of culture, thus indicating that things Eastern are inherently closer than things Western to Orthodoxy.  If this is the case, then what are we to make of the Western Rite Orthodox?  Are they somehow closer to the Latin and/or Anglican churches than the Eastern Rite Orthodox?  By saying that there are differences in proximity between the Eastern and Western components of the Latin church to Orthodoxy, we are skating dangerously close to urg's statement that, "the Melkite Church doesn't have a mutal inclusion between communion and faith when it comes to Melkite/RCC relationship.  Melkite church accepts the RCC's theological views but that doesn't mean it accepts it for itself".  This is not at all what communion means to me as an Orthodox Christian.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:54:02 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #603 on: January 13, 2017, 01:05:30 PM »
I looked into Eastern Catholicism at one time for myself, because I knew an anchorite that was a Byzantine Catholic at one time and I was looking for a different church home.  The rites and so forth may be eastern, but the theology is a mixture of eastern theology with some western influences (particularly in areas of moral theology).  It really depends because there is a subset of eastern Catholics, esp. among the Melkites, that are a bit "rebellious" and free-wheeling when it comes to these matters.  And some Popes, especially seem to have affirmed the relative autonomy of eastern Catholic churches.  So, there is some uncertainty on just what being "Eastern Catholic" is in relationship to Latin Catholicism, beyond the fact that Eastern Catholics use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and have eastern and hesychastic spirituality and theology.

I do know Eastern Catholics have had a lot of friction with Latin Catholics in the US since they arrived here.  It's one of the reasons the OCA got to be so large, being made up one time of a lot of former Ruthenian Catholics.   
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #604 on: January 13, 2017, 01:36:09 PM »
I understand the distinction - most especially as articulated by Isa a couple of posts ago - but I am not sure that I am comfortable in playing into the lie and the fiction that the Eastern Catholics are "Orthodox in communion with Rome" or as urg would have it, that "they teach orthodoxy" and "they are orthodox already".

Neither am I.  It's BS.   

Quote
I don't think we can say that the Melkites or other Eastern Catholics are closer to Orthodoxy than the Latins if they accept the theology of the Latins as articulated in their post-schism councils unless we are speaking strictly in terms of culture, thus indicating that things Eastern are inherently closer than things Western to Orthodoxy.  If this is the case, then what are we to make of the Western Rite Orthodox?  Are they somehow closer to the Latin and/or Anglican churches than the Eastern Rite Orthodox?  By saying that there are differences in proximity between the Eastern and Western components of the Latin church to Orthodoxy, we are skating dangerously close to urg's statement that, "the Melkite Church doesn't have a mutal inclusion between communion and faith when it comes to Melkite/RCC relationship.  Melkite church accepts the RCC's theological views but that doesn't mean it accepts it for itself".  This is not at all what communion means to me as an Orthodox Christian.

But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.  The differences in sacramental theology and practice I mentioned earlier are an example of that.  I don't think that applies across the board to everything as urg8rb8 would have us believe, but it does apply in certain not unimportant situations and it's a real difference. 

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #605 on: January 13, 2017, 02:08:33 PM »
Economy means for the purposes of building up the "household of God" (oikos = house), the strict canonical rules are waived.

This is basically what the orthodox priest is doing for you, he is exercising economy in your situation.

Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #606 on: January 13, 2017, 02:25:33 PM »
"the Melkite Church doesn't have a mutal inclusion between communion and faith when it comes to Melkite/RCC relationship.  Melkite church accepts the RCC's theological views but that doesn't mean it accepts it for itself".  This is not at all what communion means to me as an Orthodox Christian.

Yes, and that is why the Antiochain Orthodox Church hasn't accepted the Melkites reaching out to solidify communion with the AOC even though the Melkites don't accept RCC theology for themselves because the views of what "inter communion" means.  The AOC told the Melkites that the AOC does not separate "inter communion" of "unit of faith" as the Melkites do with the RCC.
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #607 on: January 13, 2017, 02:29:12 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #608 on: January 13, 2017, 02:31:30 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).

Stop trolling. 

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #609 on: January 13, 2017, 02:39:07 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).
Sure, some individuals can believe some RC teachings are wrong and EO ones are right, even if they are RC or Melkite.

In your case though, you also have some beliefs that are not Orthodox:
You believe intercommunion is a question of politics, and that Melkite Catholics who accept the RC councils have right faith.

This is not orthodox faith even if you disagree with many RC teachings and Many orthodox ones you accept.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #610 on: January 13, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »
Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

As for catechesis, I agree. Melkites probably need less teaching as they might understand some concepts more easily than RCs. Also, I don't oppose economy outright but IMO it should be applied similarly to both ECs and RCs when it comes to manner of reception. The transition is probably smoother to ECs as the culture is more similar but sacramentally-wise there's no difference between them and RC's.

Sacramentally there are differences.  The sacraments of initiation are conferred at the same time by Melkites, but over a period of years (and not always in the correct order) by Latins.  Marriages are ministered by the couple itself among Latins, with the bishop/priest (or deacon, or in mission territories some other officially sanctioned person) as a witness, whereas the Melkites and other Eastern Catholics share our faith and practice that it is the bishop/priest who confers the sacrament.  Those are some major sacramental differences, and they are treated differently.

I understand that individual Melkites might share similar ideas with EOs. However I don't think that it can be generalized in the sense that they share the same with us. The Melkite church is a Catholic church, sharing the Catholic faith. They accept the RC doctrine and abide to it despite having Greek practices.

It's up to individual church''s practices how converts should be received. That said,  I don't think there's any difference between confirmed RC and Chrismated EC. The timing of sacrament is different and the RC practice is IMO incorrect (but not church-dividing issue, btw)  but it's really the same thing.
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #611 on: January 13, 2017, 03:28:29 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).

Stop trolling.

You know i'm right.  I've been saying this all along while you were saying its wrong.  Now all of a sudden you're saying it. lol
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #612 on: January 13, 2017, 03:43:45 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).

Stop trolling.

You know i'm right.  I've been saying this all along while you were saying its wrong.  Now all of a sudden you're saying it. lol
*Facepalm* When Mor said that there are instances of Eastern Catholics not believing in certain RC doctrines, he was in no way implying that it is representative of official Eastern Catholic teaching, let alone that the Melkite Church as a whole does not believe in RC doctrine. Are you really interested in a discussion here? Or is your only interest here is to try to play "gotcha" with your dishonest reading comprehension?   
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #613 on: January 13, 2017, 03:44:20 PM »
he timing of sacrament is different and the RC practice is IMO incorrect (but not church-dividing issue, btw)  but it's really the same thing.
How so for RCs as opposed to ECs?
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #614 on: January 13, 2017, 03:53:25 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).
Sure, some individuals can believe some RC teachings are wrong and EO ones are right, even if they are RC or Melkite.

In your case though, you also have some beliefs that are not Orthodox:
You believe intercommunion is a question of politics, and that Melkite Catholics who accept the RC councils have right faith.

This is not orthodox faith even if you disagree with many RC teachings and Many orthodox ones you accept.

I agree with you there.  I have a huge problem with the RCC and their teachings.  From my relative Melkite vantage point:  AOC = MC - communion with RCC.  I've been to a few RCC masses and they are downright scary.  What I don't like about this Melkite communion with Rome, is that RCCs who are born in RCC might creep into the Melkite church.  What happens if a RC priest switches to the Melkite Church yet still keeps his RCC theology?  This creates an issue for me.

I still believe it is a question of politics.  But politics shouldn't really be an element of faith.  I totally understand what the Melkite Church has been trying to do:  find a way to bridge the gap between East and West while staying maintaining orthodoxy for themselves.  You know, the Melkite Church could be the catalyst for true unity in the future.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 03:55:45 PM by urg8rb8 »
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #615 on: January 13, 2017, 03:55:09 PM »
But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.

Slowly but surely you're all starting to agree with me.  Yes, you're so right, never thought of that! (the trick here to make you think this initially came from you and not actually from me lol).

Stop trolling.

You know i'm right.  I've been saying this all along while you were saying its wrong.  Now all of a sudden you're saying it. lol
*Facepalm* When Mor said that there are instances of Eastern Catholics not believing in certain RC doctrines, he was in no way implying that it is representative of official Eastern Catholic teaching, let alone that the Melkite Church as a whole does not believe in RC doctrine. Are you really interested in a discussion here? Or is your only interest here is to try to play "gotcha" with your dishonest reading comprehension?

The only ones playing gotcha here is some of you guys.  I'm glad Mr Mor validated my situation with the AOC when he contacted the Archdiocese.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #616 on: January 13, 2017, 03:56:04 PM »
Alpo,
In the conversion process, the Church wants to see that the person (a) has and gets right sacraments and (b) doctrines, and that he gave up the false doctrines.

With the EC Churches, sometimes they were pressured into accepting Catholicism, or otherwise will in some cases teach EO doctrines in contradiction to their acceptance of Rome's Councils, and also preserve the forms of EO rituals. So on this basis, in conversion it looks like with ECs the EO Churches are commonly open to accepting their EC baptism and Chrismation. So there is no absolute need for separate baptism and chrismation for ECs.

As for (B), the Church wants to have the converts made a declaration of Orthodox faith and there is also a format for renunciation past unorthodox teachings. I think this renunciation is also not absolute, so long as the concern in B is fulfilled, ie. that the person is no longer teaching anti-Orthodox doctrines.

In U.R.Gator.Bait's case, his EC Chrismation would be accepted, but he isn't fulfilling (B). He made a general declaration of Orthodox faith, but then immediately rejects his conversion by saying that he definitely did not convert, that intercommunion is "politics", that accepting Rone's councils is not a theological/doctrinal issue, that Melkites are "orthodox".

So was there even a conversion to begin with? If a Mormon gets baptised and chrismated and makes these Orthodox declarations and then immediately goes online and says "Mormonism is orthodoxy", and definitely never converted, then did he ever actually convert?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #617 on: January 13, 2017, 03:58:51 PM »
I agree with you there.  I have a huge problem with the RCC and their teachings.  From my relative Melkite vantage point:  AOC = MC - communion with RCC. ... the Melkite Church could be the catalyst for true unity in the future.
It sounds like maybe you converted with your EO priest and then immediately went back to being Melkite via your professions teaching Melkite faith.
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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #618 on: January 13, 2017, 03:59:05 PM »
Having certain approach to Eastern Catholics and other approach to Roman Catholics doesn't make sense though. They are part of the same church. Eastern Catholic baptism is Roman Catholic baptism is Eastern Catholic baptism. While the priest seems to have followed his bishop's instruction (which is proper ansd fittting) the instruction is sillly if the same guideline doesn't apply to RC converts too.

Not exactly.  Yes, Melkites and Latin Catholics are in full communion and so you can say "they are part of the same church".  But decisions on how to receive their into the Orthodox Church can and do differ due to the relative proximity of each tradition to the Orthodox faith and practice of the Church.  Unless you're of the "baptise them all" school of thought and oppose economy outright, this means that there can and ought to be a difference in how Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics are received.   

As for catechesis, I agree. Melkites probably need less teaching as they might understand some concepts more easily than RCs. Also, I don't oppose economy outright but IMO it should be applied similarly to both ECs and RCs when it comes to manner of reception. The transition is probably smoother to ECs as the culture is more similar but sacramentally-wise there's no difference between them and RC's.

Sacramentally there are differences.  The sacraments of initiation are conferred at the same time by Melkites, but over a period of years (and not always in the correct order) by Latins.  Marriages are ministered by the couple itself among Latins, with the bishop/priest (or deacon, or in mission territories some other officially sanctioned person) as a witness, whereas the Melkites and other Eastern Catholics share our faith and practice that it is the bishop/priest who confers the sacrament.  Those are some major sacramental differences, and they are treated differently.

I understand that individual Melkites might share similar ideas with EOs. However I don't think that it can be generalized in the sense that they share the same with us. The Melkite church is a Catholic church, sharing the Catholic faith. They accept the RC doctrine and abide to it despite having Greek practices.

It's up to individual church''s practices how converts should be received. That said,  I don't think there's any difference between confirmed RC and Chrismated EC. The timing of sacrament is different and the RC practice is IMO incorrect (but not church-dividing issue, btw)  but it's really the same thing.

+1

But there are instances in which Eastern Catholics accept the validity of Latin teachings for Latins while rejecting them for themselves.  The differences in sacramental theology and practice I mentioned earlier are an example of that.  I don't think that applies across the board to everything as urg8rb8 would have us believe, but it does apply in certain not unimportant situations and it's a real difference.

I'm not sure that I agree with this approach to sacramental theology.  How can one hold something they deem to be a theological falsehood true for someone else?  This sounds a bit like when some Pentecostals I know - speaking about their Pneumatology - say, "That may not be how God deals with you, but it's how He deals with me!!!"  Either something is right and true (in this case, God possesses people like a voodoo spirit) or it isn't (He doesn't).  He doesn't possess some of His flock and make them writhe on the floor and froth at the mouth, and teach others to worship Liturgically.  How is the idea you are articulating (on behalf of the Melkites) a consistent approach to sacramental theology?  Unless we're acknowledging along with Alpo that, "I don't think there's any difference between confirmed RC and Chrismated EC. The timing of sacrament is different and the RC practice is IMO incorrect (but not church-dividing issue, btw)  but it's really the same thing" in which case, I see know reason why there should be difference in the way that Latin Catholics and Melkite Catholics are received.

The rites and so forth may be eastern, but the theology is a mixture of eastern theology with some western influences (particularly in areas of moral theology).

This was always my impression as well.  Once those "Western" (in this case read as heterodox) influences come in, then the vitiated church is no longer Orthodox.  It has joined itself - in full communion - to a heterodox body, and thus has become not only heterodox, but a part of that church as well.  The Melkite Church is a part of the Roman Catholic.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #619 on: January 13, 2017, 04:01:30 PM »
I'm glad Mr Mor validated my situation with the AOC when he contacted the Archdiocese.
I'm glad he has, too. The problem is that you keep taking his posts as a concession that the Melkite Church as a whole is officially small "o" orthodox. That's not what he's saying at all.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 04:04:27 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #620 on: January 13, 2017, 04:08:30 PM »
I agree with you there.  I have a huge problem with the RCC and their teachings.  From my relative Melkite vantage point:  AOC = MC - communion with RCC.  I've been to a few RCC masses and they are downright scary.  What I don't like about this Melkite communion with Rome, is that RCCs who are born in RCC might creep into the Melkite church.  What happens if a RC priest switches to the Melkite Church yet still keeps his RCC theology?  This creates an issue for me.

I am glad you have an issue with these things and recognize them for the problems they are.  It's apparently not an issue for the Melkite Church as a whole, however, or they wouldn't have melded into one church with the Latins.

I still believe it is a question of politics.  But politics shouldn't really be an element of faith.  I totally understand what the Melkite Church has been trying to do:  find a way to bridge the gap between East and West while staying maintaining orthodoxy for themselves.  You know, the Melkite Church could be the catalyst for true unity in the future.

No, they never will.  Not with the approach you are describing.  By accepting the post-schism councils, the Melkites have themselves become heterodox.

By the way, would you kindly address the inconsistency in the story of how you were received as rakovksy pointed out below?  Thank you:

The conversation went something like this:  "Hey Abbouna... this is the second Sunday in a row I've been coming to this church.  I am Melkite and I'd like to start coming here.  But I'd also like to receive communion."  His response:  "Welcome to the church. I have no issues giving you communion, since you are Melkite, just come regularly if you were RC, Maronite, etc... then I'd have to chrismate you".
I think that is not how the conversation really went.

He wanted to anoint me with oil first. 

Who knows what the real story is.

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #621 on: January 13, 2017, 04:17:01 PM »
By the way, would you kindly address the inconsistency in the story of how you were received as rakovksy pointed out below?  Thank you:

The conversation went something like this:  "Hey Abbouna... this is the second Sunday in a row I've been coming to this church.  I am Melkite and I'd like to start coming here.  But I'd also like to receive communion."  His response:  "Welcome to the church. I have no issues giving you communion, since you are Melkite, just come regularly if you were RC, Maronite, etc... then I'd have to chrismate you".
I think that is not how the conversation really went.

He wanted to anoint me with oil first. 

Who knows what the real story is.
He wanted to anoint him with oil, until he was told that he was already anointed in the Melkite Church.
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #622 on: January 13, 2017, 04:17:39 PM »
This was always my impression as well.  Once those "Western" (in this case read as heterodox) influences come in, then the vitiated church is no longer Orthodox.  It has joined itself - in full communion - to a heterodox body, and thus has become not only heterodox, but a part of that church as well.  The Melkite Church is a part of the Roman Catholic.
Antonius,

There was in fact a major gathering of 28 Melkite bishops who declared themselves in agreement with the EOs in theological disputes with Rome.

See here:
Melkite Synod in 'rebellion'
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69280.msg1405102.html#msg1405102

See also the 1975 Zoghby initiative and its profession of faith:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoghby_Initiative


So let's say a major Melkite gathering of bishops declared that they accepted the RC Councils as truth, and then went point by point rejecting every theological statement by those RC Councils that disagreed with Orthodoxy. Would that make them definitely Orthodox in the substance of their theology?

To put it another way, if a Council makes wrong theology and you accept the Council while stipulating that you oppose the wrong theology, does that make you heretical? Alternately, if a Council makes right theology, and you reject the Council and its theological statement as heretical, while proposing a theological alternative to it that is in fact Orthodox, does that make you Orthodox in theology?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #623 on: January 13, 2017, 04:21:18 PM »
By the way, would you kindly address the inconsistency in the story of how you were received as rakovksy pointed out below?  Thank you:

The conversation went something like this:  "Hey Abbouna... this is the second Sunday in a row I've been coming to this church.  I am Melkite and I'd like to start coming here.  But I'd also like to receive communion."  His response:  "Welcome to the church. I have no issues giving you communion, since you are Melkite, just come regularly if you were RC, Maronite, etc... then I'd have to chrismate you".
He wanted to anoint me with oil first. 
He wanted to anoint him with oil, until he was told that he was already anointed in the Melkite Church.

Right. The priest's response was not an automatic "Welcome to the church. I have no issues giving you communion, since you are Melkite".

He made him do things like give a profession of faith, accept the Orthodox teachings, and require him to regularly attend EO liturgies and EO confession.
That is not "no issues" with giving him automatic communion as a Melkite.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 04:25:47 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #624 on: January 13, 2017, 04:24:39 PM »
Looks like Melkites were trolling Fr. John too for not recognizing them as Orthodox:

I once attended a Melkite Liturgy. Since he saw me dressed in my clericals, he came up to me before the beginning of the Divine Liturgy and invited me to concelebrate and to receive Holy Communion. The Priest made a public issue of the fact that I would not concelebrate with him or receive Communion. I had no vestments with me and could not concelbrate with him even if it were allowed. Surely this man knew that the Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox are not in Communion.

The whole incident made me feel very uncomfortable. If I saw a man dressed as a priest in the congregation, I would publicly welcome them as I do all visitors after the Divine Liturgy during the announcements, but I would not embarrass him the way that the Melkite priest embarrassed me.

I should add that the Catholics here are not like that. They could not be more welcoming or nicer. They have invited me to attend special Masses at the Catholic school where most of my youth go and several of my people teach and other events such as the celebration of the 50th anniversary of the ordination of a local Catholic priest.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #625 on: January 13, 2017, 04:38:38 PM »
he timing of sacrament is different and the RC practice is IMO incorrect (but not church-dividing issue, btw)  but it's really the same thing.
How so for RCs as opposed to ECs?

I'm Orthodox. It's fairly obvious that I believe that infants ought to be chrismated.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #626 on: January 13, 2017, 04:54:05 PM »
I agree with you there.  I have a huge problem with the RCC and their teachings.  From my relative Melkite vantage point:  AOC = MC - communion with RCC. ... the Melkite Church could be the catalyst for true unity in the future.
It sounds like maybe you converted with your EO priest and then immediately went back to being Melkite via your professions teaching Melkite faith.

Sounds like you're just guessing and making things up.
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #627 on: January 13, 2017, 05:04:01 PM »
By the way, would you kindly address the inconsistency in the story of how you were received as rakovksy pointed out below?  Thank you:

What byhisgrace said.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #628 on: January 13, 2017, 05:05:50 PM »
he timing of sacrament is different and the RC practice is IMO incorrect (but not church-dividing issue, btw)  but it's really the same thing.
How so for RCs as opposed to ECs?

I'm Orthodox. It's fairly obvious that I believe that infants ought to be chrismated.
OK. I thought you meant the RCs were performing the rite itself more defectively than ECs when the RCs do perform it.
eg. RCs vs. ECs might have different Eucharistic epicleses by analogy
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Offline urg8rb8

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Re: Can I, a Melkite, receive communion at an Antiochian Orthodox church
« Reply #629 on: January 13, 2017, 05:08:37 PM »
This was always my impression as well.  Once those "Western" (in this case read as heterodox) influences come in, then the vitiated church is no longer Orthodox.  It has joined itself - in full communion - to a heterodox body, and thus has become not only heterodox, but a part of that church as well.  The Melkite Church is a part of the Roman Catholic.
Antonius,

There was in fact a major gathering of 28 Melkite bishops who declared themselves in agreement with the EOs in theological disputes with Rome.

See here:
Melkite Synod in 'rebellion'
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69280.msg1405102.html#msg1405102

See also the 1975 Zoghby initiative and its profession of faith:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoghby_Initiative


So let's say a major Melkite gathering of bishops declared that they accepted the RC Councils as truth, and then went point by point rejecting every theological statement by those RC Councils that disagreed with Orthodoxy. Would that make them definitely Orthodox in the substance of their theology?

To put it another way, if a Council makes wrong theology and you accept the Council while stipulating that you oppose the wrong theology, does that make you heretical? Alternately, if a Council makes right theology, and you reject the Council and its theological statement as heretical, while proposing a theological alternative to it that is in fact Orthodox, does that make you Orthodox in theology?

So you finally agree the Melkite Church has officially rejected the RCC teachings for itself.  Man, things are starting to come around here, I like it.  My patience paid off.

Anyway, hence "orthodox in communion with Rome".  Basically "an agree to disagree" situation between Melkite and RC.  I'm glad the AOC also recognizes this.
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will declare your praise." - Psalm 51:15