Author Topic: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?  (Read 9121 times)

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2016, 07:53:28 PM »

I think Roman Catholics over-do it worst of all. It's why I can't ever be Catholic.

That's why you are a Protestant.

It's why I'm not Roman Catholic. The filoque has little to do with it.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2016, 05:12:58 PM »
What is the difference between phthora and diaphthora? Are you aware of any Bible or liturgical book that translates both categorically differently from each other?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:17:50 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2016, 05:13:47 PM »
Is there any actual difference between phthora and diaphthora?

What do you think?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2016, 05:17:29 PM »
Is there any actual difference between phthora and diaphthora?

What do you think?
I expressed myself very poorly, look at the edit. ISTM diaphthora is more intense, but I don't know how to put this in a translation. Maybe it's better to use one word for both, I don't recall them opposing each other directly anywere in the Bible (as in "phthora and diaphthora").
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:23:48 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2016, 05:23:54 PM »
What is the difference between phthora and diaphthora? Are you aware of any Bible or liturgical book that translates both categorically differently from each other?

There's a lively if brief discussion on the prior page. Perhaps you saw it and want more -- perhaps a more-methodical or -transparent survey than LBK's of the liturgical translation choices into English? I agree, that would be welcome. As I implied before, however, I personally have an impression of English translation choices that does not elevate them to great authority.


[Edited to add:] In my own process, I sometimes survey the whole TLG -- this doesn't include liturgics per se but does include Scripture and the Fathers ...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:46:26 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Xavier

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2016, 06:27:56 AM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 06:43:11 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2016, 08:43:07 PM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2016, 08:54:26 PM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2016, 10:28:39 PM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Thank you, Xavier. Glory to God! Blessed Mother, pray for us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2016, 10:31:41 PM »
Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg

I see what you did there. Very good.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2016, 10:33:17 PM »
Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg

I see what you did there. Very good.

What's so "great" about it? It's a "rhetorical" question. If you say "The egg", you missed the point.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 10:43:37 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2016, 11:21:17 PM »
Also, you can go on to quote any number of commentators or commentators.

Just as any Protestant may "protest" charges of Gnosticism, yet remain guilty. (I'm saying it's a possibility.)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 11:25:40 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2016, 12:20:07 AM »
Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg

I see what you did there. Very good.

What's so "great" about it? It's a "rhetorical" question. If you say "The egg", you missed the point.
If you don't understand the answer, I think it is you that has missed the point.
God bless!

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2016, 01:14:45 AM »
If you don't understand the answer, I think it is you that has missed the point.

Snot fair.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2016, 03:10:11 AM »
So it's sort of like all of the rules changed after St. Mary was resurrected. Am I getting this right?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2016, 03:23:14 AM »
So it's sort of like all of the rules changed after St. Mary was resurrected. Am I getting this right?

No. No, you are getting this wrong.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2016, 10:43:45 AM »
Are you certain, Porter?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2016, 12:32:24 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 12:35:44 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Arachne

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2016, 12:36:45 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2016, 01:02:09 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 01:12:40 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2016, 02:17:20 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.

I don't think it's true that Orthodoxy "hasn't said one way or the other".  It's not dogmatically defined in quite the way it is in Roman Catholicism, and that is a significant difference between the two traditions, but IMO you can't really look at Orthodoxy on its own terms in any responsible way and come away with any other conclusion than that Orthodox believe and take for granted that the Mother of God did not commit sins.   

If there are people who teach otherwise, including clergy, it doesn't surprise me, but I wonder how much of that is actually a sincerely held (dis)belief and how much is merely their way of "not going there" with people who are not ready to deal with such things. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2016, 02:19:41 PM »
The only Orthodox authority I've seen who suggests she may have sinned is Chrysostom, who says she lapsed into vainglory when she demanded Jesus to come out and see her. The only place I've seen this opinion echoed is in Theophylact's gospel commentary, which relies heavily on Chrysostom.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 02:19:55 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2016, 02:45:05 PM »

I don't think it's true that Orthodoxy "hasn't said one way or the other".  It's not dogmatically defined in quite the way it is in Roman Catholicism, and that is a significant difference between the two traditions, but IMO you can't really look at Orthodoxy on its own terms in any responsible way and come away with any other conclusion than that Orthodox believe and take for granted that the Mother of God did not commit sins.   

If there are people who teach otherwise, including clergy, it doesn't surprise me, but I wonder how much of that is actually a sincerely held (dis)belief and how much is merely their way of "not going there" with people who are not ready to deal with such things.

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

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Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2016, 03:47:42 PM »
Although, they do say in the Liturgy, that Christ is the only sinless one.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 03:51:52 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #114 on: November 10, 2016, 05:28:01 PM »

I don't think it's true that Orthodoxy "hasn't said one way or the other".  It's not dogmatically defined in quite the way it is in Roman Catholicism, and that is a significant difference between the two traditions, but IMO you can't really look at Orthodoxy on its own terms in any responsible way and come away with any other conclusion than that Orthodox believe and take for granted that the Mother of God did not commit sins.   

If there are people who teach otherwise, including clergy, it doesn't surprise me, but I wonder how much of that is actually a sincerely held (dis)belief and how much is merely their way of "not going there" with people who are not ready to deal with such things.

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"

Who is "they"?  Dissuade anyone of what belief? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #115 on: November 10, 2016, 05:29:07 PM »
Just imagine every few words of mcarmichael accompanied by puffs of smoke and he makes a lot more sense.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2016, 12:03:46 AM »

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"

Who is "they"?  Dissuade anyone of what belief?

Do you remember the topic, Mor? What day is it today?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 12:33:47 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2016, 12:45:39 AM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

This quote is from an ACOTE clergyman, fyi.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 12:47:06 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2016, 01:44:31 AM »
I know some Orthodox (eg Father Kimel here) will respond that the Theotokos was sinless, but sinless in a different way from Christ. I find such arguments wholly unsatisfactory, but that is probably due to my own lack of piety.

Don't be so hard on yourself, mate. Let others do it for you.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2016, 03:35:33 AM »
Just imagine every few words of mcarmichael accompanied by puffs of smoke and he makes a lot more sense.

You are just envious.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2016, 08:46:04 AM »
Just imagine every few words of mcarmichael accompanied by puffs of smoke and he makes a lot more sense.

You are just envious.

No doubt.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2016, 11:37:57 AM »

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"

Who is "they"?  Dissuade anyone of what belief?

Do you remember the topic, Mor? What day is it today?

How imbecilic. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2016, 05:23:14 PM »
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 05:35:52 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2016, 05:27:11 PM »
Back on topic, fellas.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #124 on: November 11, 2016, 07:54:24 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
The fact is, we don't know. No contemporaries of the Theotokos said one way or another. It is conjecture. There are reasons given for both sides of it, but quite frankly, we do know that even if she did sin, she is exalted above all others, she is our mediatrix and is more glorious than all other created beings. Spending time debating about whether she ever committed a sin and how we define that sin is really just completely missing the point and the beauty of who she is.
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2016, 08:50:55 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
The fact is, we don't know. No contemporaries of the Theotokos said one way or another. It is conjecture. There are reasons given for both sides of it, but quite frankly, we do know that even if she did sin, she is exalted above all others, she is our mediatrix and is more glorious than all other created beings. Spending time debating about whether she ever committed a sin and how we define that sin is really just completely missing the point and the beauty of who she is.

Didn't she have an advantage, though, being a woman?

Because I'm the type of guy who like to be thorough, only.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2016, 08:56:57 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
The fact is, we don't know. No contemporaries of the Theotokos said one way or another. It is conjecture. There are reasons given for both sides of it, but quite frankly, we do know that even if she did sin, she is exalted above all others, she is our mediatrix and is more glorious than all other created beings. Spending time debating about whether she ever committed a sin and how we define that sin is really just completely missing the point and the beauty of who she is.

Didn't she have an advantage, though, being a woman?

Because I'm the type of guy who like to be thorough, only.
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
God bless!

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2016, 09:14:52 PM »
Before I regret something...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:15:33 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2016, 09:16:22 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:18:38 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline biro

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2016, 09:18:09 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all.

Not in our church.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2016, 09:19:20 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all.

Not in our church.
Perhaps.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2016, 10:34:21 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.

They aren't Orthodox, which was supposed to be the point of this thread according to its title. Don't move the goalposts.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #132 on: November 11, 2016, 10:35:20 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.
Nestorians are heretics. You cannot deny the title Theotokos and be Orthodox.
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #133 on: November 11, 2016, 10:40:31 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.

They aren't Orthodox, which was supposed to be the point of this thread according to its title. Don't move the goalposts.

If you had been paying attention, you'd have noted that this came from an ACOTE clergyman, sir.

Not that I am any fan of Ecumecicism, btw.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:52:09 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #134 on: November 11, 2016, 10:42:42 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.
Nestorians are heretics. You cannot deny the title Theotokos and be Orthodox.
They admit it, albeit somewhat reluctantly.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous