Author Topic: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?  (Read 9120 times)

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2016, 11:56:22 PM »
There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology. 

It remains to be proven that "blameless" equates to the sinless perfection of Christ.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2016, 11:57:36 PM »
There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology. 

It remains to be proven that "blameless" equates to the sinless perfection of Christ.

Nobody says it does, in any denomination or tradition.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2016, 12:02:34 AM »
Do Orthodox believe it is possible to live a sinless life just by exercising ones will?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 12:03:04 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2016, 12:04:40 AM »
Do Orthodox believe it is possible to live a sinless life just by exercising ones will?

Seriously? Also, no.

Also I think that's an entirely different topic, but feel free.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 12:07:00 AM by mcarmichael »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2016, 12:13:08 AM »
There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology. 

It remains to be proven that "blameless" equates to the sinless perfection of Christ.

Nobody says it does, in any denomination or tradition.

That's quite encouraging, isn't it?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2016, 12:15:52 AM »
Do Orthodox believe it is possible to live a sinless life just by exercising ones will?

In a sense, it is not possible to do anything "by exercising one's will." We have the freedom to will this or that, but its affect on God's universe, if any, must plainly be by God's provision. At any rate, it is by grace, God's generous divine favor, that anyone is able to join his will to God's in accomplishing anything good or avoiding error.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2016, 09:40:22 AM »
That last bit sounds decidedly like classical Arminianism.

It seems to me the focus for the Orthodox is on the believer's will cooperating with God's grace to be saved, by obedience to the Church and participation in the mysteries it deems necessary, rather than Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.  Is that correct?   

Maybe I never understood Orthodoxy all along.  Or maybe I have just become more Lutheran or Catholic.  I am trying to clarify this point.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:45:08 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2016, 01:57:06 PM »
@daedelus - Yeah, it's a little bit weird, but you have to consider that if your sins have been forgiven, they've really been forgiven. Does that make sense?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2016, 02:13:14 PM »
It seems to me the focus for the Orthodox is on the believer's will cooperating with God's grace to be saved, by obedience to the Church and participation in the mysteries it deems necessary, rather than Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.  Is that correct?   

There is no such dichotomy in Orthodoxy.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2016, 02:37:05 PM »
That last bit sounds decidedly like classical Arminianism.

Arminius lived ca. 1600. Any comparison to the Church would be to discover how he conforms or departs from her, not vice versa. Think about it.

Quote
It seems to me the focus for the Orthodox is on the believer's will cooperating with God's grace to be saved, by obedience to the Church and participation in the mysteries it deems necessary, rather than Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.  Is that correct?

This is classic Protestant apologetics against non-Protestants. Leaving aside the curious matter of Protestants apparently abhorring the idea that men should be obedient and good, please just take a look at the internal illogic in this argument. Did not "Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world" have some real affect? If it did not, it was not an important act for man; so God forbid. And so since his "atoning sacrifice" and other work does have some real benefit for mankind, is not the Church that benefit or part of that benefit? In point of fact, we know from the Holy Apostles that Christ and Church are ineluctably interconnected: as Bride and Groom, as Body and Head. Where Christ atones, the Church works. Where the Church teaches, Christ teaches. Where Christ's will is done on earth as in heaven, there the Church embodies it. And so on and on.

But let's get back to the curious matter of piety and fruit being a basis for criticism of non-Protestant Christians, in the Protestant way of thinking. Please read this explanation of St. Paul's: "But God who is rich in mercy ... hath raised us up together ... that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The whole end of the workmanship of Christ by "the exceeding riches of [God's] grace" and mercy and kindness is our own responding good work; indeed, it is for this work man was foreordained since forever. And consider this record of the Evangelist's: "He spake also this parable: 'A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, "Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?" And he, answering, said unto him, "Lord, let it alone this year also till I shall dig about it and dung it, and if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." ' " Our Lord offered many parables along this line, demonstrating that God's purpose for mankind on earth is obedience, humility, prayer, work, fruit. Digging and dunging (chastisement and grace) are not some kind of end in themselves -- that would do God nor man any good -- but are God's will upon man's will, that they may be joined in God's work and all it produces.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 02:41:32 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2016, 03:54:36 PM »
Protestants, at least Lutherans, do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace.

I found this article talking about the Immaculate Conception from an Orthodox theological perspective.  It is very interesting, and has lead me to think about this issue more deeply.  I do think that Fr. John Romanides and other Orthodox theologians are allowing anti-western polemics to shape a lot of their theology.  Esp. because the feast of the conception of the Virgin Mary started in the East and spread westward in the Middle Ages.  It is not foreign to the Orthodox tradition: http://agiosmaximos.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-immaculate-conception-entirely.html
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:04:38 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2016, 04:07:22 PM »
Protestants do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another false dichotomy. 

Quote
I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace.

And another one. 

Quote
I found this article talking about the Immaculate Conception from an Orthodox theological perspective.  It is very interesting, and has lead me to think about this issue more deeply.  I do think that Fr. John Romanides and other ORthodox theologians are allowing anti-western polemics to shape a lot of their theology.  Esp. because the feast of the conception of the Virgin Mary started in the East and spread westward in the Middle Ages.  It is not foreign to the Orthodox tradition: http://agiosmaximos.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-immaculate-conception-entirely.html

No one objects to the fact of her conception or a feast commemorating it. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2016, 04:49:58 PM »
Protestants do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another false dichotomy. 

Not, it's not.  At the Last Judgement in Matthew 25, Christ says he judges people by how much they care for their neighbor, not whether they drive out demons or perform miracles.

Quote
I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace

And another one.   

You'll have to explain how its not a false dichotomy.

Quote
No one objects to the fact of her conception or a feast commemorating it.

No, but some Orthodox polemically attack the concept of the immaculate conception, even though much of the doctrine originated in the east.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:50:23 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2016, 05:51:57 PM »
Protestants do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another false dichotomy. 

Not, it's not.  At the Last Judgement in Matthew 25, Christ says he judges people by how much they care for their neighbor, not whether they drive out demons or perform miracles.

The false dichotomy I had in mind was the distinction between God and neighbour.  In the passage you cite, Christ himself identifies the distinction as false: "as you did it (not) to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it (not) to me".  When Saul of Tarsus meets the Lord while en route to persecute Christians, he identifies himself as "Jesus, whom you are persecuting".  You can't say that works have no value with God but rather are for the neighbour when God identifies himself so radically with the neighbour. 

In any case, your response demonstrates one alarming problem in contemporary interaction with Scripture: the isolated focus on and prioritising of one or the other passage in order to construct a theology for one's presuppositions.  Yes, Mt 25.31-46 presents the final judgement in a particular way, but that's hardly the only thing Scripture says about judgement, salvation, and condemnation. 

Quote
Quote
I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace

And another one.   

You'll have to explain how its not a false dichotomy.

We believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.  We praise him every morning as the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and every day we offer that Lamb to the Father "on behalf of all and for all".  But that Lamb, risen from the dead, told his disciples to go out into all the world, preaching the gospel to the whole creation, making disciples of them, baptising them, warning of the consequences of unbelief, etc.  Those disciples did so, and incorporated all who accepted the gospel into the Church which Christ declared his intention to establish upon the unassailable rock of the faith.   

The history of that one Church over the course of two thousand years has not been without its share of troubles, and the result could be caricatured unfairly as "a particular 'holy club' of people with an eastern religious tradition", but the fact remains that "Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world" was not the end of the matter, as if it was a cosmic patch to fix a particular problem and otherwise everything could continue on as usual.  Jesus died for the sins of the world and invited the world to enter into that salvation by faith in him and incorporation into his very body through the sacraments celebrated by him in that very body, the Church.  The Paschal Mystery has very specific consequences.

If it was all about Jesus' death for the sins of the world independent of anything else, there was and is no reason for anyone to be a Christian.  Jesus' death happened whether or not my Hindu ancestors knew or cared about it.  It affected them whether or not they knew or cared about it.  Why should they have converted?  Why should anyone convert now?  Why would anyone bother?  Why would anyone bother, for that matter, with Lutheranism or Joel Osteen or any of it?  Who cares? 

Quote
Quote
No one objects to the fact of her conception or a feast commemorating it.

No, but some Orthodox polemically attack the concept of the immaculate conception, even though much of the doctrine originated in the east.

Go on...
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2016, 06:23:13 PM »
In any case, your response demonstrates one alarming problem in contemporary interaction with Scripture: the isolated focus on and prioritising of one or the other passage in order to construct a theology for one's presuppositions. 

You think Jesus is going to judge us on how many Akathist hymns we have sang?

Quote
Those disciples did so, and incorporated all who accepted the gospel into the Church which Christ declared his intention to establish upon the unassailable rock of the faith.     

The modern Orthodox Church doesn't seem to do such a great job in this department.

Quote
  Jesus died for the sins of the world and invited the world to enter into that salvation by faith in him and incorporation into his very body through the sacraments celebrated by him in that very body, the Church.  The Paschal Mystery has very specific consequences. 

You think a minority of Christians have exclusive access to the grace in Christ? 

Quote
Why should they have converted?  Why should anyone convert now?  Why would anyone bother?  Why would anyone bother, for that matter, with Lutheranism or Joel Osteen or any of it?  Who cares?   

You seem to prioritize the externals of religion a great deal in your evaluation.  I've been to enough different churches that I know that there is a deeper unity among all true Christians than just where they go to church on Sunday.


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Offline WPM

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2016, 06:46:00 PM »
I'm interested in Orthodoxy.
Learn meditation.

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2016, 06:53:43 PM »
I must have hit a nerve...

In any case, your response demonstrates one alarming problem in contemporary interaction with Scripture: the isolated focus on and prioritising of one or the other passage in order to construct a theology for one's presuppositions. 

You think Jesus is going to judge us on how many Akathist hymns we have sang?

I didn't say that.  I said that there's more to judgement, salvation, and condemnation than sixteen verses out of ~73 books. 

Quote
Quote
Those disciples did so, and incorporated all who accepted the gospel into the Church which Christ declared his intention to establish upon the unassailable rock of the faith.     

The modern Orthodox Church doesn't seem to do such a great job in this department.

I agree.  But if anyone else is doing a better job, they are doing so with a flawed product.  St Paul has some harsh things to say about such products in Galatians.   

Quote
Quote
  Jesus died for the sins of the world and invited the world to enter into that salvation by faith in him and incorporation into his very body through the sacraments celebrated by him in that very body, the Church.  The Paschal Mystery has very specific consequences. 

You think a minority of Christians have exclusive access to the grace in Christ? 

I believe that the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ I was speaking about in that quote.  It was a minority in AD 33 and it is a minority today. 

Are its members the exclusive recipients of God's grace?  No.  Everything lives by the grace of God. 

Are its members incorporated into the Body of Christ?  Yes.

Are non-Orthodox incorporated into the Body of Christ?  Only God knows in the end, but we can't settle for offering them hopeful possibilities when we can give them sureties.   

Quote
Quote
Why should they have converted?  Why should anyone convert now?  Why would anyone bother?  Why would anyone bother, for that matter, with Lutheranism or Joel Osteen or any of it?  Who cares?   

You seem to prioritize the externals of religion a great deal in your evaluation. 

I'm not the one who brought up Akathists.  I don't think I've brought up anything in this exchange that is non-Scriptural except mentioning in passing "Hindus", "Lutheranism", and "Joel Osteen". 

Quote
I've been to enough different churches that I know that there is a deeper unity among all true Christians than just where they go to church on Sunday.

What is a "true Christian"? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2016, 07:49:14 PM »
Daedelus, you seem intent on researching Orthodoxy thru the lenses of your own religion. I am sympathetic, and know this is easy to do, but I think you should be aware you do yourself a real disfavor, as you simply won't understand Orthodoxy if you keep trying to fit its qualities into Protestant terms and concepts. The likeness among "Christians" (to use your term) is actually superficial; in some cases it may even be manufactured, by means of certain apologetics. No, nothing less than an openness to new vocabulary, new categories, new history, and new interpretation of the Bible could reveal to you the depth of the difference between the Church and Protestantism. If you are interested in Orthodoxy, please consider what I am pointing out. If, on the other hand, you are content to blur reality thru a comfortable Lutheran lens, at least please be aware that this is what you are doing and that you are thus unable accurately to research the Church, and that the many frustrating paradoxes you find are due to this.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2016, 11:43:28 PM »
Daedelus, you seem intent on researching Orthodoxy thru the lenses of your own religion. I am sympathetic, and know this is easy to do, but I think you should be aware you do yourself a real disfavor, as you simply won't understand Orthodoxy if you keep trying to fit its qualities into Protestant terms and concepts.

In my lifetime I have been to Methodist, Episcopalian, Independent Catholic, Lutheran... and Orthodox churches.  I've even visited a Roman Catholic church a few times.  I'm very familiar with Orthodoxy- at one time it is something to which I gave my heart: I am technically an Orthodox catechumen still.   So I know the differences.  In fact I've probably spent the majority of my worship time in the past decade in an Orthodox church.  But it's not a place I've ever really encountered much love or hospitality, frankly.  Not compared to a Lutheran church.  Which is too bad as I love Orthodox worship more, and some parts of Lutheran theology leave me scratching my head, but when I look at the people I can't argue with the results. 

Indeed, my experiences in the Episcopal church were similar, though the people were stuffier and there was a little more of a conservative evangelical influence going on there.  Lutherans are more like Orthodox in doing their own thing altogether.  But the people in the Episcopal church have the same kind of compassion and love I find in the Lutheran church overall.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:50:20 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2016, 11:50:45 PM »
I'm very familiar with Orthodoxy- at one time it is something to which I gave my heart: I am technically an Orthodox catechumen still.   So I know the differences.

What you regularly present as "Orthodoxy" in your posts is thoroughly unfamiliar to me.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2016, 03:17:49 AM »
I'm interested in Orthodoxy.

David? Felicitados, amigo!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 03:19:17 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2016, 08:54:22 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2016, 02:58:26 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?
I can't recall any hymn (not that I know many of them, lol) using it explicitly, but it's such an ancient and Patristically deep-rooted title that I doubt any Orthodox would dare questioning it.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.

Quote from: Aposticha of Bridegroom Matins of Holy Monday
The serpent found a second Eve in the Egyptian woman and plotted the fall of Joseph through the words of flattery. But, leaving behind his garment, Joseph fled from sin. He was naked but unashamed, like Adam before the fall. Through his prayers, O Christ, have mercy on us!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 03:00:28 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2016, 05:22:29 PM »
Job was righteous, but that doesn't mean he never sinned, necessarily.  The Old Testament seems to have standards for righteousness that are far more lenient than "he/she never sinned" (of course the Lutheran would say they were righteous because they had faith in God).

It is Scripture that depicts Job as without sin, not me. (And it is critical to the plot, so to speak.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2016, 01:29:34 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?

I've seen several versions of this hymn now. On another reputable website, I read that "without corruption" is the closest to the Greek, but is it safe to assume that they all generally mean the same thing, and they're all okay? Sort of a Liturgical mash-up?

Other versions read "without stain", "without defilement", etc.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:34:46 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2016, 01:48:26 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?

I've seen several versions of this hymn now. On another reputable website, I read that "without corruption" is the closest to the Greek, but is it safe to assume that they all generally mean the same thing, and they're all okay? Sort of a Liturgical mash-up?

Other versions read "without stain", "without defilement", etc.
The Greek text reads adiaphthoros, which comes from diaphthora (corruption, decay, cf. some biblical use here), so my diocese, which has Greek origins, repeats the usage of a single word and uses incorruptivelmente. The Slavonic text reads bez istleniya, bez meaning "without" and istleniye meaning apparently the same as diaphthora (I don't really know Slavonic but all Bible verses where Greek uses diaphthora have istleniye in Slavonic), so the Russians here use the construction sem corrupção.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2016, 02:11:52 PM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2016, 05:56:38 PM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."
I read that 'diafthoros' means 'corrupt'? Thus 'adiafthoros' is incorrupt?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 05:58:18 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2016, 09:20:58 PM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."
Take it easy, Porter. One step at a time.

It sounds to me as if you are suggesting the opposite of my suggestion, that all of the various versions (maybe not all, but not the point) are basically "Kosher".

Do you see the approach I'm making?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 09:30:15 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2016, 02:43:37 AM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."

Adiaphthoros does not at all mean unseduced. It means without corruption/decay, as others have pointed out. The root word is phthora, which, even in modern Greek, means corruption, decay, wear-and-tear. Rendering this word in English as incorrupt has nothing to do with squeamishness on the part of translators, and everything to do with accuracy. This word speaks of the Mother of God’s virginity and ever-virginity, in all its implications and meanings, not just the fact that she “knew not a man”.

Seduction can be expressed by various words in Greek, but phthora is not one of them.

Phthora and its cognates is used in many a Holy Week and Resurrectional hymn, referring to Christ, such as this:

Αἱ μυροφόροι γυναῖκες, ὄρθρου βαθέος, ἐπιστᾶσαι πρὸς τὸ μνῆμα τοῦ Ζωοδότου, εὗρον Ἄγγελον, ἐπὶ τὸν λίθον καθήμενον, καὶ αὐτὸς προσφθεγξάμενος, αὐταῖς οὕτως ἔλεγε· Τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν; τί θρηνεῖτε τὸν ἄφθαρτον ὡς ἐν φθορᾷ; ἀπελθοῦσαι κηρύξατε, τοῖς αὐτοῦ Μαθηταῖς.

The myrrh-bearing women at deep dawn came to the grave of the Giver of life. They found an angel sitting on the stone, and he addressed them and said: ‘Why do you seek the Living among the dead? Why do you mourn the Incorruptible as though He were in corruption? Go, proclaim it to His Disciples.


Do you still want to suggest unseduced is an accurate rendering of adiaphthoros, Porter?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2016, 01:21:18 PM »
I'm fascinated by LBK knowing the one true meaning of 'fthora' while evidently having no awareness of 'dia' altho it is extremely common.

'a-': "not"
'dia-': "by way of" (when, as here, abstract in usage)
'fthora': "corruption of morals" (when, as here, it characterizes a person)

All this is too basic, however, since in Greek as in any language the usages of a derivation are usually quite diverse from the usages of its roots.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 01:23:53 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2016, 07:08:20 PM »
I'm fascinated by LBK knowing the one true meaning of 'fthora' while evidently having no awareness of 'dia' altho it is extremely common.

'a-': "not"
'dia-': "by way of" (when, as here, abstract in usage)
'fthora': "corruption of morals" (when, as here, it characterizes a person)

All this is too basic, however, since in Greek as in any language the usages of a derivation are usually quite diverse from the usages of its roots.

Your presumption is telling.

There are plenty of forum members who have a good "book" understanding of Greek, and/or are Greek-speakers. The matter of how this hymn should be translated has been discussed in other threads, and those knowledgeable in Greek concur in their conclusions.

Your insistence in narrowing phthora to mean moral corruption as it relates to the Mother of God flies in the face of your insistence that Greek should be learned by as many as possible in order to truly understand scripture.

This bears repeating:

 
Quote
This word speaks of the Mother of God’s virginity and ever-virginity, in all its implications and meanings, not just the fact that she “knew not a man”.



Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2016, 07:32:27 PM »
Your insistence in narrowing phthora to mean moral corruption as it relates to the Mother of God flies in the face of your insistence that Greek should be learned by as many as possible in order to truly understand scripture.

This bears repeating:

 
Quote
This word speaks of the Mother of God’s virginity and ever-virginity, in all its implications and meanings, not just the fact that she “knew not a man”.

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2016, 09:53:51 PM »

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.

I think "without stain" is just as good as anything. Here is why:
a) the scope is peculiar. The Blessed Virgin isn't being compared to others who have given birth to God here. Therefore I conclude that it does indeed refer to the conception of Christ.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2016, 10:03:28 PM »

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.

I think "without stain" is just as good as anything. Here is why:
a) the scope is peculiar. The Blessed Virgin isn't being compared to others who have given birth to God here. Therefore I conclude that it does indeed refer to the conception of Christ.

It does not only refer to her virginal conception of Christ. Orthodox hymns and icons speak of various other facets of her incorruption, most of the imagery drawn from scripture. She is the fulfillment of the Burning Bush (she was not consumed by the divine fire of God she carried within her), she is the East Gate, which remains shut after the Prince has entered it, she is the Mountain not hewn by hands, the Unfading Rose. Etc. Many a hymn also speaks of her giving birth "without travail".

She is depicted in icons, including in those of her Dormition, as a youthful woman, despite her having reached a ripe old age. Saints who lived long lives are shown as aged.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 10:10:39 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2016, 10:10:09 PM »

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.

I think "without stain" is just as good as anything. Here is why:
a) the scope is peculiar. The Blessed Virgin isn't being compared to others who have given birth to God here. Therefore I conclude that it does indeed refer to the conception of Christ.

It does not only refer to her virginal conception of Christ. Orthodox hymns and icons speak of various other facets of her incorruption, most of the imagery drawn from scripture. She is the fulfillment of the Burning Bush (she was not consumed by the divine fire of God she carried within her), she is the East Gate, which remains shut after the Prince has entered it, she is the Mountain not hewn by hands, the Unfading Rose. Etc.

She is depicted in icons, including in those of her Dormition, as a youthful woman, despite her having reached a ripe old age. Saints who lived long lives are shown as aged.

I thought that the burning bush was the fulfillment of the burning bush. I guess I need to re-read the whole Bible.

I think this is good to talk about this, because I worry equally for you, in a spiritual sense. As in, I'm fairly confident that I could easily become Orthodox, apply for Catechesis, etc.... Except I'm not sure how to deal with people like you, who pronounce such platitudes..
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 10:30:14 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2016, 10:35:45 PM »
I comfort myself during these exchanges by knowing that the true suppleness and subtlety of LBK's mind cannot be done justice in the medium of forum posts.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2016, 10:56:48 PM »

I think this is good to talk about this, because I worry equally for you, in a spiritual sense. As in, I'm fairly confident that I could easily become Orthodox, apply for Catechesis, etc.... Except I'm not sure how to deal with people like you, who pronounce such platitudes..

It would be appreciated if you could point out the platitudes in my post.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2016, 11:46:52 PM »

I think this is good to talk about this, because I worry equally for you, in a spiritual sense. As in, I'm fairly confident that I could easily become Orthodox, apply for Catechesis, etc.... Except I'm not sure how to deal with people like you, who pronounce such platitudes..

It would be appreciated if you could point out the platitudes in my post.  :)

How will you prove your appreciation?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:54:48 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2016, 11:53:27 PM »
oops.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:53:50 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Xavier

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2016, 03:22:12 AM »
Not sure about the source but I agree with it, as a Catholic. Mother Mary's sinless perfection and plenitude in grace is revealed in the Angelic Salutation. "Hail, full of grace". The Greek word is kecharitomene, it literally means one in whom the giving of grace is complete. We Latins would understand it as St. Jerome translated, Ave, Gratia Plena. Literally, in whom every grace is full. Only Jesus is also called full of grace in the Gospels, by St. John (1:14). Jesus is the source of grace and Mary is the channel. Every grace that originates in God now reposes in Mary through the Holy Spirit who has espoused Her as His bride and so is given to us through Her so that She is our true Mother and New Eve in the order of grace. St. Luke is showing us Mary is the Seat of Wisdom, "I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue." (Wis 24:24) and Her fruit, Who is Eternal Wisdom, the divine Logos Himself, is pure gold, as King Solomon says of the Seat of Wisdom. The Queen of Prophets says "Truly all generations henceforth will call Me Blessed for He that is Mighty as done great things to Me" as it was written, "My memory is unto everlasting generations" and of course, every subsequent generation has indeed called the Most Holy Theootokos Blessed, however inconceivable it may have been from a human perspective.

When the Saints and Fathers, especially Greek Fathers, comment on Luk 1:28, they are lost in contemplation and speak with delight in praise of the wonders that Almighty God has wrought in Her most pure body and soul, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus says, "O purest one, O purest virgin, where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present, the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit, in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard thou hast put on the vesture of purity; God has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair; and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold"

And St. Theodotus of Ancyra likewise, "What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word."
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2016, 03:32:50 AM »
Thank you, Xavier.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2016, 06:01:07 PM »
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2016, 09:53:27 PM »
Not sure about the source but I agree with it, as a Catholic. Mother Mary's sinless perfection and plenitude in grace is revealed in the Angelic Salutation. "Hail, full of grace". The Greek word is kecharitomene, it literally means one in whom the giving of grace is complete. We Latins would understand it as St. Jerome translated, Ave, Gratia Plena. Literally, in whom every grace is full. Only Jesus is also called full of grace in the Gospels, by St. John (1:14). Jesus is the source of grace and Mary is the channel. Every grace that originates in God now reposes in Mary through the Holy Spirit who has espoused Her as His bride and so is given to us through Her so that She is our true Mother and New Eve in the order of grace. St. Luke is showing us Mary is the Seat of Wisdom, "I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue." (Wis 24:24) and Her fruit, Who is Eternal Wisdom, the divine Logos Himself, is pure gold, as King Solomon says of the Seat of Wisdom. The Queen of Prophets says "Truly all generations henceforth will call Me Blessed for He that is Mighty as done great things to Me" as it was written, "My memory is unto everlasting generations" and of course, every subsequent generation has indeed called the Most Holy Theootokos Blessed, however inconceivable it may have been from a human perspective.

When the Saints and Fathers, especially Greek Fathers, comment on Luk 1:28, they are lost in contemplation and speak with delight in praise of the wonders that Almighty God has wrought in Her most pure body and soul, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus says, "O purest one, O purest virgin, where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present, the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit, in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard thou hast put on the vesture of purity; God has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair; and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold"

And St. Theodotus of Ancyra likewise, "What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word."

I think Roman Catholics over-do it worst of all. It's why I can't ever be Catholic.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mike

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2016, 02:16:44 AM »
Not sure about the source but I agree with it, as a Catholic. Mother Mary's sinless perfection and plenitude in grace is revealed in the Angelic Salutation. "Hail, full of grace". The Greek word is kecharitomene, it literally means one in whom the giving of grace is complete. We Latins would understand it as St. Jerome translated, Ave, Gratia Plena. Literally, in whom every grace is full. Only Jesus is also called full of grace in the Gospels, by St. John (1:14). Jesus is the source of grace and Mary is the channel. Every grace that originates in God now reposes in Mary through the Holy Spirit who has espoused Her as His bride and so is given to us through Her so that She is our true Mother and New Eve in the order of grace. St. Luke is showing us Mary is the Seat of Wisdom, "I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue." (Wis 24:24) and Her fruit, Who is Eternal Wisdom, the divine Logos Himself, is pure gold, as King Solomon says of the Seat of Wisdom. The Queen of Prophets says "Truly all generations henceforth will call Me Blessed for He that is Mighty as done great things to Me" as it was written, "My memory is unto everlasting generations" and of course, every subsequent generation has indeed called the Most Holy Theootokos Blessed, however inconceivable it may have been from a human perspective.

When the Saints and Fathers, especially Greek Fathers, comment on Luk 1:28, they are lost in contemplation and speak with delight in praise of the wonders that Almighty God has wrought in Her most pure body and soul, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus says, "O purest one, O purest virgin, where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present, the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit, in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard thou hast put on the vesture of purity; God has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair; and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold"

And St. Theodotus of Ancyra likewise, "What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word."

I think Roman Catholics over-do it worst of all. It's why I can't ever be Catholic.

That's why you are a Protestant.
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