Author Topic: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?  (Read 8146 times)

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Offline mcarmichael

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Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« on: August 03, 2016, 09:45:32 PM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

The struggle is real.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 10:35:50 PM »
I wouldn't object to anything in this excerpt. Where is this from, though?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 10:59:59 PM »
Some (most?) Orthodox believe that Mary was preserved from personal sin by Grace.  I have a feeling that the quote you provided is from a RCC publication?

As far as I'm aware the Orthodox Church has no dogmatic stance on Mary's personal sin or lack thereof, (it is pious Tradition to believe she was Holy and chaste by Grace - and this is trustworthy.) but rejects the innovation of the RCC that she was not subject to "original / ancestral sin."   If one is not aware of the difference between the Eastern understanding of ancestral sin and the Western notions of original sin, one will not really understand the issue.

If this is from an RCC source - and it's context has anything to do with the Immaculate Conception (preservation from original sin) then it is not Orthodox.   If it is dealing only with personal sin -- the isolated quote could be Orthodox.   Context is everything.

In any case, the excerpt makes clear that her preservation from personal sin was a Grace bestowed upon Her by God in Christ which she received and nurtured.



   
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 11:08:23 PM by Onesimus »

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 11:23:50 PM »
As Onesimus said above, it would be interesting to have a source since the context of the quote may change the subject.
It all comes to downto the difference the orthodox and the catholics define sin.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2016, 08:46:21 AM »
Some (most?) Orthodox believe that Mary was preserved from personal sin by Grace.  I have a feeling that the quote you provided is from a RCC publication?

Not RCC, no.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Online Asteriktos

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 08:57:30 AM »
I don't remember anything specific, but when I read it the first name that jumped to mind was St. Gregory Palamas. I don't see anything unorthodox about it as a standalone statement, though of course that's not saying much.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 08:57:46 AM by Asteriktos »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2016, 01:41:15 AM »
Some (most?) Orthodox believe that Mary was preserved from personal sin by Grace.  I have a feeling that the quote you provided is from a RCC publication?

As far as I'm aware the Orthodox Church has no dogmatic stance on Mary's personal sin or lack thereof, (it is pious Tradition to believe she was Holy and chaste by Grace - and this is trustworthy.) but rejects the innovation of the RCC that she was not subject to "original / ancestral sin."   If one is not aware of the difference between the Eastern understanding of ancestral sin and the Western notions of original sin, one will not really understand the issue.

If this is from an RCC source - and it's context has anything to do with the Immaculate Conception (preservation from original sin) then it is not Orthodox.   If it is dealing only with personal sin -- the isolated quote could be Orthodox.   Context is everything.

In any case, the excerpt makes clear that her preservation from personal sin was a Grace bestowed upon Her by God in Christ which she received and nurtured.



 

If it is only pious opinion, should it be pronounced so authoritatively?

I asked my parish priest, and he seems to be of the opinion that it is what the (Eastern) Orthodox Church teaches. I had asked him because I felt like he might be more familiar with the liturgy than I am.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Alpo

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2016, 01:51:49 AM »
As far as I'm aware the Orthodox Church has no dogmatic stance on Mary's personal sin or lack thereof

We haven't proclaimed dogmas on pretty much anything but it doesn't really matter. We believe in Tradition. I'm pretty sure every  priest who suggested that the Mother of God was otherwise sinful too besides the original sin would get defrocked even before he finished the very sermon where he suggests that. And then get stoned by the angry parishioners to which he was preaching.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 01:52:11 AM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2016, 03:31:29 AM »
I did not say it was pious opinion.    I said it was pious Tradition. 

Not the same.   

As far as Mary....think of it this way.

If (hypothetically) it's an error on the part of the Orthodox to say this, it is an error made out of love.   It is no sin to believe that God preserved someone by grace and made them Holy.

But,if On the other hand it is true (it is, btw), it is sin for....say a Protestant....to assert that Mary was sinful (they don't claim agnosticism, but dogmatically state she is sinful using various Scripture proof texts).  It's essentially laying accusations at her feet and denying the power of God.

Is it worse to falsely accuse and convict a innocent person or to assume their innocence at the outset?

Falsely accusing Mary of sin is far less safe than assuming her purity as a Grace in Love.   Love of Her, love of the Church through the ages,mLove of Tradition, etc. which unifies us.   Love covers over a multitude of sins.   



« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 03:48:34 AM by Onesimus »

Offline genesisone

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2016, 09:03:52 AM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

The struggle is real.
I still have a lot to learn in this, so please allow me to speculate as I try to work this out even in my own mind: I see the above statement as reversed. It seems to suggest that because God chose her, she did not commit any sin. It seems to me to be more correct to say that God prepared her by strengthening her to not commit any sin and because of that, elected her to become the Mother of the Son of God. We all work out our own salvation through grace. Mary achieved a high level of theosis ("full of grace") and thus became the one to be singularly favoured.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2016, 10:43:50 AM »
As far as I'm aware the Orthodox Church has no dogmatic stance on Mary's personal sin or lack thereof

We haven't proclaimed dogmas on pretty much anything but it doesn't really matter. We believe in Tradition. I'm pretty sure every  priest who suggested that the Mother of God was otherwise sinful too besides the original sin would get defrocked even before he finished the very sermon where he suggests that. And then get stoned by the angry parishioners to which he was preaching.

Wouldn't they crucify him, instead?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2016, 01:26:56 PM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

The struggle is real.

The boldfaced section is the only part that gives me pause.  One thing that Orthodox like to say taken from the late Fr. Alexander Schmemann, cliched as it is, is that Mary is not the great exception but the great example.  Mary needed the Cross and Resurrection of Christ as much as every one else did.  Yes, she did bear the Word incarnate, something that no one else did, but the quote above (the context of which I don't know) suggests that Mary is free from the ancestral curse (she wasn't; she died) and from the corruption and sin that come with it (which we can speculate on until the second coming).  I may well be wrong, but that's what I took from this.
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Offline benjohn146

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2016, 02:30:36 PM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

The struggle is real.

The boldfaced section is the only part that gives me pause.  One thing that Orthodox like to say taken from the late Fr. Alexander Schmemann, cliched as it is, is that Mary is not the great exception but the great example.  Mary needed the Cross and Resurrection of Christ as much as every one else did.  Yes, she did bear the Word incarnate, something that no one else did, but the quote above (the context of which I don't know) suggests that Mary is free from the ancestral curse (she wasn't; she died) and from the corruption and sin that come with it (which we can speculate on until the second coming).  I may well be wrong, but that's what I took from this.

+1
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2016, 01:01:28 PM »
I would agree with Schmemann.  Seperating Mary from the human race is problematic.   Many Catholics now days probably wouldn't intend to do that, of course, but that's what the doctrine seems to suggest.  God zapped her with created grace at conception.  Which begs the question why doesn't God just zap all of us with created grace if that's the root of our problem.

A low view of Mary is one of those difficult issues I have with Protestantism, but it's more of a modern issue due to the evangelical revivals of the 19th century which were often strongly anti-Catholic.  In the past the sentiment was far more positive (look at Wordsworth's poem, The Virgin, where he describes Mary as "our fallen nature's solitary boast"- Wordsworth was no Anglo-Catholic, that movement didn't even exist at the time).

Luther seems to have either believed Mary was conceived without sin or she was made holy at the Incarnation.  It's not something he delves into scholastically.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:05:29 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2016, 02:29:42 PM »
I would agree with Schmemann.  Seperating Mary from the human race is problematic.   Many Catholics now days probably wouldn't intend to do that, of course, but that's what the doctrine seems to suggest.  God zapped her with created grace at conception.  Which begs the question why doesn't God just zap all of us with created grace if that's the root of our problem.

A low view of Mary is one of those difficult issues I have with Protestantism, but it's more of a modern issue due to the evangelical revivals of the 19th century which were often strongly anti-Catholic.  In the past the sentiment was far more positive (look at Wordsworth's poem, The Virgin, where he describes Mary as "our fallen nature's solitary boast"- Wordsworth was no Anglo-Catholic, that movement didn't even exist at the time).

Luther seems to have either believed Mary was conceived without sin or she was made holy at the Incarnation.  It's not something he delves into scholastically.

LUther wholeheartedly accepted the tradition of the Church on this one and even believed that it was an essential component of the Christian faith yet felt free to label other traditional things as bad that should be thrown out.  Lutherans today will frequently say (without any evidence) that Luther held this as a "pious opinion" and that it need not be deemed essential.  Of course, when asked for the criteria for what separates Luther's pious opinions from essentials, they look at you as if you were speaking Klingon.
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Offline benjohn146

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2016, 02:40:23 PM »
I would agree with Schmemann.  Seperating Mary from the human race is problematic.   Many Catholics now days probably wouldn't intend to do that, of course, but that's what the doctrine seems to suggest.  God zapped her with created grace at conception.  Which begs the question why doesn't God just zap all of us with created grace if that's the root of our problem.

A low view of Mary is one of those difficult issues I have with Protestantism, but it's more of a modern issue due to the evangelical revivals of the 19th century which were often strongly anti-Catholic.  In the past the sentiment was far more positive (look at Wordsworth's poem, The Virgin, where he describes Mary as "our fallen nature's solitary boast"- Wordsworth was no Anglo-Catholic, that movement didn't even exist at the time).

Luther seems to have either believed Mary was conceived without sin or she was made holy at the Incarnation.  It's not something he delves into scholastically.

+1 also!
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2016, 12:32:04 AM »
I would agree with Schmemann.  Seperating Mary from the human race is problematic.   Many Catholics now days probably wouldn't intend to do that, of course, but that's what the doctrine seems to suggest.  God zapped her with created grace at conception.  Which begs the question why doesn't God just zap all of us with created grace if that's the root of our problem.

A low view of Mary is one of those difficult issues I have with Protestantism, but it's more of a modern issue due to the evangelical revivals of the 19th century which were often strongly anti-Catholic.  In the past the sentiment was far more positive (look at Wordsworth's poem, The Virgin, where he describes Mary as "our fallen nature's solitary boast"- Wordsworth was no Anglo-Catholic, that movement didn't even exist at the time).

Luther seems to have either believed Mary was conceived without sin or she was made holy at the Incarnation.  It's not something he delves into scholastically.

I wouldn't say that I have a "low" view of Mary the Mother of Jesus.... What would you say constitutes a "low" view of the Blessed Virgin?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2016, 07:47:55 AM »
I wouldn't say that I have a "low" view of Mary the Mother of Jesus.... What would you say constitutes a "low" view of the Blessed Virgin?

A surrogate mother brought out at Christmas, then quietly tucked away afterwards?   That was pretty much how I thought of Mary growing up Methodist.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2016, 09:25:13 AM »
I wouldn't say that I have a "low" view of Mary the Mother of Jesus.... What would you say constitutes a "low" view of the Blessed Virgin?

A surrogate mother brought out at Christmas, then quietly tucked away afterwards?   That was pretty much how I thought of Mary growing up Methodist.

Is that a common view among Methodists?
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2016, 10:16:25 AM »
Is that a common view among Methodists?

That was my impression growing up.  My impression is that some Methodists are starting to gradually change that due to more influence of ecumenism and the liturgical movement.   I remember a few years ago participating in an online prayer service and there was a Welsh Methodist minister giving a sermon on the presentation of Jesus in the temple. I was surprised by how Catholic he sounded at times.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2016, 12:00:00 PM »
Is that a common view among Methodists?

That was my impression growing up.  My impression is that some Methodists are starting to gradually change that due to more influence of ecumenism and the liturgical movement.   I remember a few years ago participating in an online prayer service and there was a Welsh Methodist minister giving a sermon on the presentation of Jesus in the temple. I was surprised by how Catholic he sounded at times.

The Wesley brothers both had a "high" view of the Virgin Mary going so far as to say she was semper virgo (ever virgin)  and Dei Mater (Mother of God) as opposed to simply Domini Mater (Mother of the Lord).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 12:01:07 PM by scamandrius »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2016, 12:03:04 PM »
^So had Lutheran and Reformed Fathers but it has been conveniently ignored my pretty much all Protestants. To the extent that I'd argue that high view is anti-Protestant.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2016, 11:23:49 PM »
I wouldn't say that I have a "low" view of Mary the Mother of Jesus.... What would you say constitutes a "low" view of the Blessed Virgin?

A surrogate mother brought out at Christmas, then quietly tucked away afterwards?   That was pretty much how I thought of Mary growing up Methodist.

Is that a common view among Methodists?

I can't speak for Methodists, but it does sound familiar.

But I think the idea that she somehow "merited" to be the Mother of God (whether that's how you Orthodox would phrase it or not, idk) is preposterous(!), to my finely-tuned Old Protestant ears. Although, again, it isn't something we spoke about often, either.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline wgw

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2016, 12:45:14 AM »
I wouldn't say that I have a "low" view of Mary the Mother of Jesus.... What would you say constitutes a "low" view of the Blessed Virgin?

A surrogate mother brought out at Christmas, then quietly tucked away afterwards?   That was pretty much how I thought of Mary growing up Methodist.

Is that a common view among Methodists?

Yes, but it was not the view of John Wesley.  The Theotokos was never really talked about by any elder I had and her importance in the economy of salvation, which was itself rarely talked about, left unexplained.

However. John Wesley for his part had a Mariology that seems to me to have been fully correct.

Also the 1965 Methodist Book of Worship and Book of Hymns included the Magnificat and settings thereof.

However there is a spiritual disease in Methodism. which even I suffered, tha5 excess veneration of St. Mary is a "Catholic thing" and while she and St. Joseph are important, they are on a par with St. John the Baptist.  Oh and by the way, in most Methodist parishes calling any of the above saints would raise eyebrows but there are a few exceptions...high church traditionalist parishes like St. Paul's UMC in Alaska, which was forcibly shut down and sold to another denomination (despite the congregation having paid for its construction) because the female "bishopess" did not like their traditionalism on homosexuality and other issues.  It is a sad fact that those Protestant denominations that are closer to Orthodoxy by having a hierarchy, seem to be rotting from the top down, so those which follow the unorthodox congregational or presbyterian polities are better preserving the faith.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2016, 01:11:26 AM »
Is that a common view among Methodists?

That was my impression growing up.  My impression is that some Methodists are starting to gradually change that due to more influence of ecumenism and the liturgical movement.   I remember a few years ago participating in an online prayer service and there was a Welsh Methodist minister giving a sermon on the presentation of Jesus in the temple. I was surprised by how Catholic he sounded at times.

The Wesley brothers both had a "high" view of the Virgin Mary going so far as to say she was semper virgo (ever virgin)  and Dei Mater (Mother of God) as opposed to simply Domini Mater (Mother of the Lord).

Correct.  There was no Nestorianism in them.

Unfortunately, as I discovered, in the search which led me to Orthodox, there is a huge gulf between what the Wesley brothers, especially John Wesley believed, and what Methodists are taught.  The UMC is lukewarm diet-Anglicanism with a Social Gospel streak, except in Africa; the African conferences alone are spiritually somewhat healthy.  Also some of the historically black Methodist churches, which retained the use of Wesley's streamlined BCP.

The reformed Methodist liturgy of 1989 is the worst of any mainline denomination.  It celebrates secular holidays like Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the 4th of July, Mothers Day, Labor Day and so on, but ignores several major Christian holidays.  It is a travesty compared to the old red hymnals and worship books published by the Methodist Episcopal Church, which did have some secular holidays but kept the focus on God hrough a robust liturgical calendar. 

Actually I think even the new PCUSA hymnal is better (Glory to God, publsihed in 2013), because it contains just as many theologically liberal hymns, if not more, but is not accompanied by about five volumes of uselss self-congratulatory "guides" and "references" (which actually confuse the use of the 1989 hymnal as far as the clergy are concerned, as opposed to clarifying it), and it also includes the nice and innovative touch of providing a theological explanation of each hymn included complete with Scripture references.  So one at least feels a sense of genuine Christian piety, even if the expressions of that piety manifest in forms that are disturbing or misguided, like hymn no. 2, which refers to God as a "mother."  The PCUSA hymnal also contains one clear, simple set of worship services loosely following a simplified pattern based on the 1979 Episcopal BCP and more recent Protestant liturgies, as opposed to the jumbled mess in the 1989 hymnal.

Both, however, lack any obviois high Mariology, because again, for Presbyterians as well as Methodists, the veneration of Mary is "Catholic stuff."  Calvin was a Nestorian, but he at least cared enough to insist upon the perpetual vieginity of Mary and had a much higher Mariology.

Of all of the magisterial reformers, Luther, Cranmer, Calvin, and Wesley, of these, only Cranmer and Anglicanism has successfully retained a high Mariology, but not high enough or consistent enough,  With Calvinism and Methodism, both of these faiths have in  several dogmatic respects deteriorated substantially from what their founders taught; in the case of Calvin this was for the better, mostly, but in the case of Wesley it was a disaster, because of all the major Protestant theologians he was the only one who got it right most of the time.  Luther was also right on a lot of issues, but unlike Wesley he was deiven by an anger and a wrath towards Rome and much of his theology is poisonous; Lutheranism has actually improved, but it lost completely Luther's Mariology as far as I am aware, which one still sees reflected during the period of "Lutheran Orthodoxy" in the 17th-early18th centuries, for example, in the dogmatic statements one finds in the sacred cantatas of Johann Sebatian Bach, which contain dogma which is, broadly speaking, compatible with the true Orthodox faith.   Even the better Lutheran churches like the LCMS, and the better pastors who I know, who are men of great learning, seem to have lost the plot on these issues, and they also do not bother to sing Bach's cantatas, preferring the congregational chorale invented by Luther (of which Bach wrote a fair number, but attempts at translating the doctrinally rich cantatas and chorales of Bach into English are conspicuously absent in English language Lutheran hymnals, which instead at their best are like better organized versions of the Anglican BCP, with a typical inter denominational Protestant repetoire and specific chants for each service included).

So thus, Mary, in Protestantism as a whole, except in High Church Anglicanism, is at best, undervalued, and at worst, treated with contempt (see some of the sermons by the late Rev. Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapel).

So this is not just a Methodist problem, allow me to correct my earlier post; Methodism is no worse than most Protestant denominations in this regard.  But, if Methodists were actually taught based on what John Wesley wrote, if they actually followed his instructions for worship and his theological platform, they would have a high Mariology and a proper understanding of the economy of salvation.  They would be functionally Orthodox, but with simpler liturgics.   Pietism and the free reign given to corcuit riding lay preachers who had no theological education and who were not ov,iged to follow the Wesleyan doctrinal platform, in part due to his own dreadful concession to Pietism (he famously "agreed to disagree" with George Whitefield on Calvinism, which was a horrible capitulation on his part, given that he told Whitefield "Your God is my devil"...) Wesley planted the seeds of a spineless Latidudinarian pietism which allowed his correct theological understanding to be ignored.

So in the end it doesnt matter that Wesley got everything right and was basically Orthodox, perhaps literally so (having been uncanonically consecrated a bishop by HG Erasmus of Arcadia in1763, in secret), because he unwittingly appeared to give the flock entrusted to him his blessing to disregard whatever he said so long as they held to his 25 Articles of Religion (a redaction of the 39 Articles of Anglicanism).

So the correct view of the Theotokos was lost.

Sorry for the length of this post, I am shaken up over my friend's mother's heart attack.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 01:12:24 AM by wgw »
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2016, 09:14:00 AM »
There does seem to be a decline in the Church year... not many feasts, even though Lutherans permit this sort of thing as "adiaphora" from doctrine.  I think its due to the later anti-Catholic polemics and the politics of northern European countries, as exemplified in Bismarck's Kulturkampf.

Even at my own relatively liturgical Lutheran church, there are far more secular holidays celebrated than the traditional church year.  No dressing in red or white for Pentecost, etc.   I think there's also a decidedly dour, moralistic tendency that creeps in when this sort of stuff is emptied out.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2016, 10:57:14 AM »
There does seem to be a decline in the Church year... not many feasts, even though Lutherans permit this sort of thing as "adiaphora" from doctrine.  I think its due to the later anti-Catholic polemics and the politics of northern European countries, as exemplified in Bismarck's Kulturkampf.

Even at my own relatively liturgical Lutheran church, there are far more secular holidays celebrated than the traditional church year.  No dressing in red or white for Pentecost, etc.   I think there's also a decidedly dour, moralistic tendency that creeps in when this sort of stuff is emptied out.

I would agree with that assessment.  When I saw that Martin Luther King, Jr. was added to the list of Christian martyrs to be commemorated alongside other martyrs on the ELCA calendar, I was astonished.  Now MLK was a great man, but I dont think he is one of the great martyrs like Sts. Barbara or Catherine or George.  T
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2016, 01:42:09 PM »
That could be.  I'm discovering the ELCA is not remotely close to a Via Media between Protestantism and Catholicism.  It's a mess in terms of the leadership - theological obscurantism and clericalism combined with indifference to any historic Christian commitments.  The only Lutheran I know of that has a parish with an historic liturgy and church calendar lives in Canada.

The Episcopalians frankly tend to have much better liturgy, theology, and observance of a calendar.  I'm shocked to learn my local Lutheran parish doesn't even have a Maundy Thursday service.  Yes, the ethos is "liturgical", but that is only on a spectrum related to other Lutheran parishes, some of which are really "out there", just blending into the generalized mediocrity of American Protestantism.  And because they are so quietistic, Lutherans don't really care.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 01:46:37 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2016, 02:04:09 PM »
  I'm shocked to learn my local Lutheran parish doesn't even have a Maundy Thursday service. 

I've noticed this even among other Protestants.  Maunday Thursday and Holy Saturday both seem to get supplanted for Good Friday and Easter.  It's unfortunate.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2016, 07:10:48 PM »
I remember growing up that Methodists usually had a Maunday Thursday service.  It really depended on where one lived.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2016, 11:08:56 PM »

....

Both, however, lack any obviois high Mariology, because again, for Presbyterians as well as Methodists, the veneration of Mary is "Catholic stuff."  Calvin was a Nestorian, but he at least cared enough to insist upon the perpetual vieginity of Mary and had a much higher Mariology.

....


It's funny to me that you brought up Calvin, because I felt like the quote I quoted seems vaguely Calvinistic. Why is he a Nestorian, though?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2016, 03:00:42 AM »
I guess I did the Dormition fast wrong, because I wound up spending all day yesterday scrambling after Mariology. It's a real struggle, because I feel like I can't be Orthodox if I don't believe it.

It seems so obvious, though. If it isn't true that she never sinned, are all of you heretics? I haven't heard the full liturgy but I can imagine considering some of what I've read here as her Anaphora's are sung. I missed most of the Dormition services - not out of laziness, either. Or, not entirely out of laziness. I suppose I might have made one or two. :D
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2016, 09:26:15 AM »
It seems so obvious, though. If it isn't true that she never sinned, are all of you heretics? I haven't heard the full liturgy but I can imagine considering some of what I've read here as her Anaphora's are sung. I missed most of the Dormition services - not out of laziness, either. Or, not entirely out of laziness. I suppose I might have made one or two. :D

I don't think Orthodox emphasize Mary's sinlessness as much as Roman Catholics do.   
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2016, 09:59:02 AM »
I guess I did the Dormition fast wrong, because I wound up spending all day yesterday scrambling after Mariology. It's a real struggle, because I feel like I can't be Orthodox if I don't believe it.

It seems so obvious, though. If it isn't true that she never sinned, are all of you heretics? I haven't heard the full liturgy but I can imagine considering some of what I've read here as her Anaphora's are sung. I missed most of the Dormition services - not out of laziness, either. Or, not entirely out of laziness. I suppose I might have made one or two. :D
Let me suggest - and I'm trying to speak to you in a gently and kindly way - that you drop the topic of "Mariology". It doesn't strike me as being very Orthodox. Our salvation is found in Christ - study Christology. You won't be judged (outside of OC dot net, of course  ;D) on what you believe or don't believe about the Theotokos or even your relationship with her. As I spent more time pondering Christ's Incarnation and seeing how that permeates the Gospel as taught by Orthodox Christianity, I found that my understanding of the role of the Theotokos gradually came into place. It may take years.

Yes, some devotion to her seems a bit "over the top", but that comes from years of cultivating a relationship first with Christ, and then with the Theotokos. I can now see why those who have a special attachment to her are comfortable about expressing that devotion openly.

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2016, 10:07:51 AM »
It seems so obvious, though. If it isn't true that she never sinned, are all of you heretics? I haven't heard the full liturgy but I can imagine considering some of what I've read here as her Anaphora's are sung. I missed most of the Dormition services - not out of laziness, either. Or, not entirely out of laziness. I suppose I might have made one or two. :D

I don't think Orthodox emphasize Mary's sinlessness as much as Roman Catholics do.

Depends on how you define 'emphasize,' I suppose, considering you couldn't throw a rock at a liturgical book without hitting the phrase, "Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary".
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2016, 10:43:10 AM »
Depends on how you define 'emphasize,' I suppose, considering you couldn't throw a rock at a liturgical book without hitting the phrase, "Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary".

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily emphasize sinlessness in the Roman Catholic sense.  There does seem a bit of a paradoxical nature to Orthodox theology, much like certain forms of Lutheranism, that goes beyond the scholasticism of Latin theology.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2016, 07:45:15 PM »
If it is only pious opinion, should it be pronounced so authoritatively?

Wouldn't that almost be an oxymoron?
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2016, 07:50:56 PM »
If it is only pious opinion, should it be pronounced so authoritatively?

Wouldn't that almost be an oxymoron?

Forgive me, my English is not so good.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2016, 07:58:58 PM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

The struggle is real.

Protestants get so anxious if anything special is made of St. Mary -- the woman God chose to be his mother, remember!

Anyway, in regard to the sinlessness your quote seems to be discussing, perhaps Protestants should remember that even the ancient saint Job is recorded as being sinless, at least in his adulthood.

Sin is guilty mortal error, made when a human being attaches his will to his passions, thereby presenting a vector for the Evil One to use to control him, and blinding him to the true facts of his situation. This blindness can quickly grow to envelop the person for the rest of his life. This is the human condition. And what is the cure? Only the forgiving, healing generosity of the grace of God. God infills the person, becomes attached to her will, and she then participates in his grace toward others by many deeds of mercy. This enlightens the person to the true facts of our nature and God's nature and grows to envelop the person in light and grace, over the rest of her life.

Is it, then, so difficult to believe that the one cure for sin -- God's grace -- should be given or withheld, accepted or rejected, in different ways in different lives -- that is, precisely as God, the gracious one, works in a life? The sinlessness of St. Mary is a work of God as all the saints' sinless conditions -- and all saints do become sinless, in time or eternity -- are works of God.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2016, 08:01:11 PM »
In other words, if we really believe there is a cure for sin, we cannot simply disbelieve accounts of the cure's efficacy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Clemente

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2016, 05:39:55 AM »
Some (most?) Orthodox believe that Mary was preserved from personal sin by Grace.  I have a feeling that the quote you provided is from a RCC publication?

As far as I'm aware the Orthodox Church has no dogmatic stance on Mary's personal sin or lack thereof, (it is pious Tradition to believe she was Holy and chaste by Grace - and this is trustworthy.) but rejects the innovation of the RCC that she was not subject to "original / ancestral sin."   If one is not aware of the difference between the Eastern understanding of ancestral sin and the Western notions of original sin, one will not really understand the issue.

If this is from an RCC source - and it's context has anything to do with the Immaculate Conception (preservation from original sin) then it is not Orthodox.   If it is dealing only with personal sin -- the isolated quote could be Orthodox.   Context is everything.

In any case, the excerpt makes clear that her preservation from personal sin was a Grace bestowed upon Her by God in Christ which she received and nurtured.



 

If it is only pious opinion, should it be pronounced so authoritatively?

I asked my parish priest, and he seems to be of the opinion that it is what the (Eastern) Orthodox Church teaches. I had asked him because I felt like he might be more familiar with the liturgy than I am.

Hopefully there will be no need to make such a pronouncement.

I think many Orthodox underestimate the difficulties that this "pious opinion" or "pious tradition" causes for many coming from outside of Orthodoxy, particularly for those of a Protestant background.  As St. John Maximovitch has written, a belief in the absolute sinlessness of the Theotokos goes against the teachings of Scripture and the teachings of some important Fathers:

"The teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5); and in Him is no sin U John 3:5); Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (I Peter 2:22); One that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15); Him Who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf (II Cor. 5:2 1). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life (Rom. 5:8–10).

(2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. “There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins” (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). “But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh” (St. Gregory the Theologian, “In Praise of Virginity”). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160)."https://ortodoks.dk/ortodoks-tro-og-praksis/de-hellige/the-orthodox-veneration-of-mary-the-birthgiver-of-god

For those Christians that derive their faith principally from Scripture, the idea of the sinlessness of anybody but Christ alone seems untenable in a fallen world.

Moreover, the Orthodox Divine Liturgy itself seems, on numerous occasions, to affirm that Christ is the only sinless one: "Having beheld the Resurrection of Christ, let us worship the holy Lord Jesus, the only sinless one."

I know some Orthodox (eg Father Kimel here) will respond that the Theotokos was sinless, but sinless in a different way from Christ. I find such arguments wholly unsatisfactory, but that is probably due to my own lack of piety.



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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2016, 01:56:49 PM »
Is it like saying that she didn't commit any sin that carried a death penalty (ie. willful sin, per Heb. 10), according to the Mosaic Law?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2016, 02:22:48 PM »
Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4).

Well this is ironic for the Saint to cite, in my opinion, as it is a pronouncement of one of Job's cynical friends, whom God himself ultimately rebuked for ascribing to Holy Job sin of which he was not guilty.

Quote
I find such arguments wholly unsatisfactory, but that is probably due to my own lack of piety.

Surely the Theotokos, and for that matter many theophoroi, are not like our own selves who were "pull[ed] out of the fire," even our "garment spotted by the flesh." Surely none of the rest of us was given grace to be the very mother God chose for himself. Grace is given to all, yet one's salvation story is not like another's. For many of us posting here, the story must be some variation on "I, the chief sinner."

That much I can say in agreement with you. On the other hand, I am surprised that you can write something so lucid as "she was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for her salvation and overcame all temptations" and in the very next paragraph express an inability to believe it.

Quote
I think many Orthodox underestimate the difficulties that this "pious opinion" or "pious tradition" causes for many coming from outside of Orthodoxy, particularly for those of a Protestant background.

Those who have heretofore been cultivated by a religious system counterfeited by the Evil One should expect to face many difficulties and pains as they slough off the old man and are regenerated. That said, I agree to the extent that teachers of Orthodoxy must heed the Lord's warning not to offend (i.e., scandalize, lit., surprise to their harm) the young in faith.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 02:25:26 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2016, 11:31:47 PM »
Job was righteous, but that doesn't mean he never sinned, necessarily.  The Old Testament seems to have standards for righteousness that are far more lenient than "he/she never sinned" (of course the Lutheran would say they were righteous because they had faith in God).

« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:55:12 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2016, 11:47:43 PM »
Job was righteous, but that doesn't mean he never sinned, necessarily.  The Old Testament seems to have standards for righteousness that are far more lenient than "he/she never sinned" (of course the Lutheran would say they were righteous because they had faith in God).

There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology.

Quote
I would be curious to hear more about St. John Maximovitch's theology concerning sin and the Theotokos.   In the liturgies, I have never explicitly heard it stated that the Theotokos was sinless.

In the West, up until the modern period, there were many theologians that did not believe in the Immaculate Conception.  Including Aquinas or Bernard of Clairvaux.  Most assumed she was made sinless after her conception, or at the Annunciation.....
[edit]
But whether or not they believe in the IC or not seems to have no bearing on their Marian piety.

You lost me with the reference to the Roman Catholic (sp?) dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2016, 11:56:22 PM »
There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology. 

It remains to be proven that "blameless" equates to the sinless perfection of Christ.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2016, 11:57:36 PM »
There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology. 

It remains to be proven that "blameless" equates to the sinless perfection of Christ.

Nobody says it does, in any denomination or tradition.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2016, 12:02:34 AM »
Do Orthodox believe it is possible to live a sinless life just by exercising ones will?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 12:03:04 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2016, 12:04:40 AM »
Do Orthodox believe it is possible to live a sinless life just by exercising ones will?

Seriously? Also, no.

Also I think that's an entirely different topic, but feel free.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 12:07:00 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2016, 12:13:08 AM »
There are many references to people who were "blameless" before God, without reference to Lutheran theology. 

It remains to be proven that "blameless" equates to the sinless perfection of Christ.

Nobody says it does, in any denomination or tradition.

That's quite encouraging, isn't it?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2016, 12:15:52 AM »
Do Orthodox believe it is possible to live a sinless life just by exercising ones will?

In a sense, it is not possible to do anything "by exercising one's will." We have the freedom to will this or that, but its affect on God's universe, if any, must plainly be by God's provision. At any rate, it is by grace, God's generous divine favor, that anyone is able to join his will to God's in accomplishing anything good or avoiding error.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2016, 09:40:22 AM »
That last bit sounds decidedly like classical Arminianism.

It seems to me the focus for the Orthodox is on the believer's will cooperating with God's grace to be saved, by obedience to the Church and participation in the mysteries it deems necessary, rather than Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.  Is that correct?   

Maybe I never understood Orthodoxy all along.  Or maybe I have just become more Lutheran or Catholic.  I am trying to clarify this point.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:45:08 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2016, 01:57:06 PM »
@daedelus - Yeah, it's a little bit weird, but you have to consider that if your sins have been forgiven, they've really been forgiven. Does that make sense?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2016, 02:13:14 PM »
It seems to me the focus for the Orthodox is on the believer's will cooperating with God's grace to be saved, by obedience to the Church and participation in the mysteries it deems necessary, rather than Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.  Is that correct?   

There is no such dichotomy in Orthodoxy.   
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2016, 02:37:05 PM »
That last bit sounds decidedly like classical Arminianism.

Arminius lived ca. 1600. Any comparison to the Church would be to discover how he conforms or departs from her, not vice versa. Think about it.

Quote
It seems to me the focus for the Orthodox is on the believer's will cooperating with God's grace to be saved, by obedience to the Church and participation in the mysteries it deems necessary, rather than Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.  Is that correct?

This is classic Protestant apologetics against non-Protestants. Leaving aside the curious matter of Protestants apparently abhorring the idea that men should be obedient and good, please just take a look at the internal illogic in this argument. Did not "Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world" have some real affect? If it did not, it was not an important act for man; so God forbid. And so since his "atoning sacrifice" and other work does have some real benefit for mankind, is not the Church that benefit or part of that benefit? In point of fact, we know from the Holy Apostles that Christ and Church are ineluctably interconnected: as Bride and Groom, as Body and Head. Where Christ atones, the Church works. Where the Church teaches, Christ teaches. Where Christ's will is done on earth as in heaven, there the Church embodies it. And so on and on.

But let's get back to the curious matter of piety and fruit being a basis for criticism of non-Protestant Christians, in the Protestant way of thinking. Please read this explanation of St. Paul's: "But God who is rich in mercy ... hath raised us up together ... that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The whole end of the workmanship of Christ by "the exceeding riches of [God's] grace" and mercy and kindness is our own responding good work; indeed, it is for this work man was foreordained since forever. And consider this record of the Evangelist's: "He spake also this parable: 'A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, "Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?" And he, answering, said unto him, "Lord, let it alone this year also till I shall dig about it and dung it, and if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." ' " Our Lord offered many parables along this line, demonstrating that God's purpose for mankind on earth is obedience, humility, prayer, work, fruit. Digging and dunging (chastisement and grace) are not some kind of end in themselves -- that would do God nor man any good -- but are God's will upon man's will, that they may be joined in God's work and all it produces.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 02:41:32 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2016, 03:54:36 PM »
Protestants, at least Lutherans, do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace.

I found this article talking about the Immaculate Conception from an Orthodox theological perspective.  It is very interesting, and has lead me to think about this issue more deeply.  I do think that Fr. John Romanides and other Orthodox theologians are allowing anti-western polemics to shape a lot of their theology.  Esp. because the feast of the conception of the Virgin Mary started in the East and spread westward in the Middle Ages.  It is not foreign to the Orthodox tradition: http://agiosmaximos.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-immaculate-conception-entirely.html
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:04:38 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2016, 04:07:22 PM »
Protestants do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another false dichotomy. 

Quote
I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace.

And another one. 

Quote
I found this article talking about the Immaculate Conception from an Orthodox theological perspective.  It is very interesting, and has lead me to think about this issue more deeply.  I do think that Fr. John Romanides and other ORthodox theologians are allowing anti-western polemics to shape a lot of their theology.  Esp. because the feast of the conception of the Virgin Mary started in the East and spread westward in the Middle Ages.  It is not foreign to the Orthodox tradition: http://agiosmaximos.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-immaculate-conception-entirely.html

No one objects to the fact of her conception or a feast commemorating it. 
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2016, 04:49:58 PM »
Protestants do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another false dichotomy. 

Not, it's not.  At the Last Judgement in Matthew 25, Christ says he judges people by how much they care for their neighbor, not whether they drive out demons or perform miracles.

Quote
I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace

And another one.   

You'll have to explain how its not a false dichotomy.

Quote
No one objects to the fact of her conception or a feast commemorating it.

No, but some Orthodox polemically attack the concept of the immaculate conception, even though much of the doctrine originated in the east.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:50:23 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2016, 05:51:57 PM »
Protestants do not deny that good works are a response to God's grace.  They just deny that religious works have any particular merit with God.  As Luther said, God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.

Another false dichotomy. 

Not, it's not.  At the Last Judgement in Matthew 25, Christ says he judges people by how much they care for their neighbor, not whether they drive out demons or perform miracles.

The false dichotomy I had in mind was the distinction between God and neighbour.  In the passage you cite, Christ himself identifies the distinction as false: "as you did it (not) to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it (not) to me".  When Saul of Tarsus meets the Lord while en route to persecute Christians, he identifies himself as "Jesus, whom you are persecuting".  You can't say that works have no value with God but rather are for the neighbour when God identifies himself so radically with the neighbour. 

In any case, your response demonstrates one alarming problem in contemporary interaction with Scripture: the isolated focus on and prioritising of one or the other passage in order to construct a theology for one's presuppositions.  Yes, Mt 25.31-46 presents the final judgement in a particular way, but that's hardly the only thing Scripture says about judgement, salvation, and condemnation. 

Quote
Quote
I worry about elevating the Church to some status above the Gospel.  Because that is how spiritual abuse is enabled.  Jesus died for the sins of the whole word, not just for a particular "holy club" of people with an eastern religious tradition and self-appointed claims of authority to dispense grace

And another one.   

You'll have to explain how its not a false dichotomy.

We believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.  We praise him every morning as the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and every day we offer that Lamb to the Father "on behalf of all and for all".  But that Lamb, risen from the dead, told his disciples to go out into all the world, preaching the gospel to the whole creation, making disciples of them, baptising them, warning of the consequences of unbelief, etc.  Those disciples did so, and incorporated all who accepted the gospel into the Church which Christ declared his intention to establish upon the unassailable rock of the faith.   

The history of that one Church over the course of two thousand years has not been without its share of troubles, and the result could be caricatured unfairly as "a particular 'holy club' of people with an eastern religious tradition", but the fact remains that "Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world" was not the end of the matter, as if it was a cosmic patch to fix a particular problem and otherwise everything could continue on as usual.  Jesus died for the sins of the world and invited the world to enter into that salvation by faith in him and incorporation into his very body through the sacraments celebrated by him in that very body, the Church.  The Paschal Mystery has very specific consequences.

If it was all about Jesus' death for the sins of the world independent of anything else, there was and is no reason for anyone to be a Christian.  Jesus' death happened whether or not my Hindu ancestors knew or cared about it.  It affected them whether or not they knew or cared about it.  Why should they have converted?  Why should anyone convert now?  Why would anyone bother?  Why would anyone bother, for that matter, with Lutheranism or Joel Osteen or any of it?  Who cares? 

Quote
Quote
No one objects to the fact of her conception or a feast commemorating it.

No, but some Orthodox polemically attack the concept of the immaculate conception, even though much of the doctrine originated in the east.

Go on...
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2016, 06:23:13 PM »
In any case, your response demonstrates one alarming problem in contemporary interaction with Scripture: the isolated focus on and prioritising of one or the other passage in order to construct a theology for one's presuppositions. 

You think Jesus is going to judge us on how many Akathist hymns we have sang?

Quote
Those disciples did so, and incorporated all who accepted the gospel into the Church which Christ declared his intention to establish upon the unassailable rock of the faith.     

The modern Orthodox Church doesn't seem to do such a great job in this department.

Quote
  Jesus died for the sins of the world and invited the world to enter into that salvation by faith in him and incorporation into his very body through the sacraments celebrated by him in that very body, the Church.  The Paschal Mystery has very specific consequences. 

You think a minority of Christians have exclusive access to the grace in Christ? 

Quote
Why should they have converted?  Why should anyone convert now?  Why would anyone bother?  Why would anyone bother, for that matter, with Lutheranism or Joel Osteen or any of it?  Who cares?   

You seem to prioritize the externals of religion a great deal in your evaluation.  I've been to enough different churches that I know that there is a deeper unity among all true Christians than just where they go to church on Sunday.


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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2016, 06:46:00 PM »
I'm interested in Orthodoxy.
Learn meditation.

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2016, 06:53:43 PM »
I must have hit a nerve...

In any case, your response demonstrates one alarming problem in contemporary interaction with Scripture: the isolated focus on and prioritising of one or the other passage in order to construct a theology for one's presuppositions. 

You think Jesus is going to judge us on how many Akathist hymns we have sang?

I didn't say that.  I said that there's more to judgement, salvation, and condemnation than sixteen verses out of ~73 books. 

Quote
Quote
Those disciples did so, and incorporated all who accepted the gospel into the Church which Christ declared his intention to establish upon the unassailable rock of the faith.     

The modern Orthodox Church doesn't seem to do such a great job in this department.

I agree.  But if anyone else is doing a better job, they are doing so with a flawed product.  St Paul has some harsh things to say about such products in Galatians.   

Quote
Quote
  Jesus died for the sins of the world and invited the world to enter into that salvation by faith in him and incorporation into his very body through the sacraments celebrated by him in that very body, the Church.  The Paschal Mystery has very specific consequences. 

You think a minority of Christians have exclusive access to the grace in Christ? 

I believe that the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ I was speaking about in that quote.  It was a minority in AD 33 and it is a minority today. 

Are its members the exclusive recipients of God's grace?  No.  Everything lives by the grace of God. 

Are its members incorporated into the Body of Christ?  Yes.

Are non-Orthodox incorporated into the Body of Christ?  Only God knows in the end, but we can't settle for offering them hopeful possibilities when we can give them sureties.   

Quote
Quote
Why should they have converted?  Why should anyone convert now?  Why would anyone bother?  Why would anyone bother, for that matter, with Lutheranism or Joel Osteen or any of it?  Who cares?   

You seem to prioritize the externals of religion a great deal in your evaluation. 

I'm not the one who brought up Akathists.  I don't think I've brought up anything in this exchange that is non-Scriptural except mentioning in passing "Hindus", "Lutheranism", and "Joel Osteen". 

Quote
I've been to enough different churches that I know that there is a deeper unity among all true Christians than just where they go to church on Sunday.

What is a "true Christian"? 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2016, 07:49:14 PM »
Daedelus, you seem intent on researching Orthodoxy thru the lenses of your own religion. I am sympathetic, and know this is easy to do, but I think you should be aware you do yourself a real disfavor, as you simply won't understand Orthodoxy if you keep trying to fit its qualities into Protestant terms and concepts. The likeness among "Christians" (to use your term) is actually superficial; in some cases it may even be manufactured, by means of certain apologetics. No, nothing less than an openness to new vocabulary, new categories, new history, and new interpretation of the Bible could reveal to you the depth of the difference between the Church and Protestantism. If you are interested in Orthodoxy, please consider what I am pointing out. If, on the other hand, you are content to blur reality thru a comfortable Lutheran lens, at least please be aware that this is what you are doing and that you are thus unable accurately to research the Church, and that the many frustrating paradoxes you find are due to this.
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Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2016, 11:43:28 PM »
Daedelus, you seem intent on researching Orthodoxy thru the lenses of your own religion. I am sympathetic, and know this is easy to do, but I think you should be aware you do yourself a real disfavor, as you simply won't understand Orthodoxy if you keep trying to fit its qualities into Protestant terms and concepts.

In my lifetime I have been to Methodist, Episcopalian, Independent Catholic, Lutheran... and Orthodox churches.  I've even visited a Roman Catholic church a few times.  I'm very familiar with Orthodoxy- at one time it is something to which I gave my heart: I am technically an Orthodox catechumen still.   So I know the differences.  In fact I've probably spent the majority of my worship time in the past decade in an Orthodox church.  But it's not a place I've ever really encountered much love or hospitality, frankly.  Not compared to a Lutheran church.  Which is too bad as I love Orthodox worship more, and some parts of Lutheran theology leave me scratching my head, but when I look at the people I can't argue with the results. 

Indeed, my experiences in the Episcopal church were similar, though the people were stuffier and there was a little more of a conservative evangelical influence going on there.  Lutherans are more like Orthodox in doing their own thing altogether.  But the people in the Episcopal church have the same kind of compassion and love I find in the Lutheran church overall.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:50:20 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2016, 11:50:45 PM »
I'm very familiar with Orthodoxy- at one time it is something to which I gave my heart: I am technically an Orthodox catechumen still.   So I know the differences.

What you regularly present as "Orthodoxy" in your posts is thoroughly unfamiliar to me.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2016, 03:17:49 AM »
I'm interested in Orthodoxy.

David? Felicitados, amigo!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 03:19:17 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2016, 08:54:22 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2016, 02:58:26 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?
I can't recall any hymn (not that I know many of them, lol) using it explicitly, but it's such an ancient and Patristically deep-rooted title that I doubt any Orthodox would dare questioning it.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.

Quote from: Aposticha of Bridegroom Matins of Holy Monday
The serpent found a second Eve in the Egyptian woman and plotted the fall of Joseph through the words of flattery. But, leaving behind his garment, Joseph fled from sin. He was naked but unashamed, like Adam before the fall. Through his prayers, O Christ, have mercy on us!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 03:00:28 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2016, 05:22:29 PM »
Job was righteous, but that doesn't mean he never sinned, necessarily.  The Old Testament seems to have standards for righteousness that are far more lenient than "he/she never sinned" (of course the Lutheran would say they were righteous because they had faith in God).

It is Scripture that depicts Job as without sin, not me. (And it is critical to the plot, so to speak.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2016, 01:29:34 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?

I've seen several versions of this hymn now. On another reputable website, I read that "without corruption" is the closest to the Greek, but is it safe to assume that they all generally mean the same thing, and they're all okay? Sort of a Liturgical mash-up?

Other versions read "without stain", "without defilement", etc.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:34:46 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2016, 01:48:26 PM »
I guess I was considering the Liturgical hymn, that goes "...who without sin gave birth to our Lord...", and it reminded me of this typological title she is (idk if it is offical) sometimes given, "The Second Eve". Is that title at all controversial? Is there an icon of it, or is it used in the Liturgy?

I've seen several versions of this hymn now. On another reputable website, I read that "without corruption" is the closest to the Greek, but is it safe to assume that they all generally mean the same thing, and they're all okay? Sort of a Liturgical mash-up?

Other versions read "without stain", "without defilement", etc.
The Greek text reads adiaphthoros, which comes from diaphthora (corruption, decay, cf. some biblical use here), so my diocese, which has Greek origins, repeats the usage of a single word and uses incorruptivelmente. The Slavonic text reads bez istleniya, bez meaning "without" and istleniye meaning apparently the same as diaphthora (I don't really know Slavonic but all Bible verses where Greek uses diaphthora have istleniye in Slavonic), so the Russians here use the construction sem corrupção.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2016, 02:11:52 PM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2016, 05:56:38 PM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."
I read that 'diafthoros' means 'corrupt'? Thus 'adiafthoros' is incorrupt?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 05:58:18 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2016, 09:20:58 PM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."
Take it easy, Porter. One step at a time.

It sounds to me as if you are suggesting the opposite of my suggestion, that all of the various versions (maybe not all, but not the point) are basically "Kosher".

Do you see the approach I'm making?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 09:30:15 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2016, 02:43:37 AM »
I would think 'adiafthoros' means "unseduced" ('aftharsi' means "incorrupt"). I sometimes wonder if the translators into English have tended to be overly delicate. Obviously so in cases such as St. Paul's "deprepuced" as "circumcised." But also possibly even in the case if 'theotokos' as "God-bearer" rather than, say, "God-bred."

Adiaphthoros does not at all mean unseduced. It means without corruption/decay, as others have pointed out. The root word is phthora, which, even in modern Greek, means corruption, decay, wear-and-tear. Rendering this word in English as incorrupt has nothing to do with squeamishness on the part of translators, and everything to do with accuracy. This word speaks of the Mother of God’s virginity and ever-virginity, in all its implications and meanings, not just the fact that she “knew not a man”.

Seduction can be expressed by various words in Greek, but phthora is not one of them.

Phthora and its cognates is used in many a Holy Week and Resurrectional hymn, referring to Christ, such as this:

Αἱ μυροφόροι γυναῖκες, ὄρθρου βαθέος, ἐπιστᾶσαι πρὸς τὸ μνῆμα τοῦ Ζωοδότου, εὗρον Ἄγγελον, ἐπὶ τὸν λίθον καθήμενον, καὶ αὐτὸς προσφθεγξάμενος, αὐταῖς οὕτως ἔλεγε· Τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν; τί θρηνεῖτε τὸν ἄφθαρτον ὡς ἐν φθορᾷ; ἀπελθοῦσαι κηρύξατε, τοῖς αὐτοῦ Μαθηταῖς.

The myrrh-bearing women at deep dawn came to the grave of the Giver of life. They found an angel sitting on the stone, and he addressed them and said: ‘Why do you seek the Living among the dead? Why do you mourn the Incorruptible as though He were in corruption? Go, proclaim it to His Disciples.


Do you still want to suggest unseduced is an accurate rendering of adiaphthoros, Porter?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2016, 01:21:18 PM »
I'm fascinated by LBK knowing the one true meaning of 'fthora' while evidently having no awareness of 'dia' altho it is extremely common.

'a-': "not"
'dia-': "by way of" (when, as here, abstract in usage)
'fthora': "corruption of morals" (when, as here, it characterizes a person)

All this is too basic, however, since in Greek as in any language the usages of a derivation are usually quite diverse from the usages of its roots.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 01:23:53 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2016, 07:08:20 PM »
I'm fascinated by LBK knowing the one true meaning of 'fthora' while evidently having no awareness of 'dia' altho it is extremely common.

'a-': "not"
'dia-': "by way of" (when, as here, abstract in usage)
'fthora': "corruption of morals" (when, as here, it characterizes a person)

All this is too basic, however, since in Greek as in any language the usages of a derivation are usually quite diverse from the usages of its roots.

Your presumption is telling.

There are plenty of forum members who have a good "book" understanding of Greek, and/or are Greek-speakers. The matter of how this hymn should be translated has been discussed in other threads, and those knowledgeable in Greek concur in their conclusions.

Your insistence in narrowing phthora to mean moral corruption as it relates to the Mother of God flies in the face of your insistence that Greek should be learned by as many as possible in order to truly understand scripture.

This bears repeating:

 
Quote
This word speaks of the Mother of God’s virginity and ever-virginity, in all its implications and meanings, not just the fact that she “knew not a man”.



Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2016, 07:32:27 PM »
Your insistence in narrowing phthora to mean moral corruption as it relates to the Mother of God flies in the face of your insistence that Greek should be learned by as many as possible in order to truly understand scripture.

This bears repeating:

 
Quote
This word speaks of the Mother of God’s virginity and ever-virginity, in all its implications and meanings, not just the fact that she “knew not a man”.

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2016, 09:53:51 PM »

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.

I think "without stain" is just as good as anything. Here is why:
a) the scope is peculiar. The Blessed Virgin isn't being compared to others who have given birth to God here. Therefore I conclude that it does indeed refer to the conception of Christ.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2016, 10:03:28 PM »

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.

I think "without stain" is just as good as anything. Here is why:
a) the scope is peculiar. The Blessed Virgin isn't being compared to others who have given birth to God here. Therefore I conclude that it does indeed refer to the conception of Christ.

It does not only refer to her virginal conception of Christ. Orthodox hymns and icons speak of various other facets of her incorruption, most of the imagery drawn from scripture. She is the fulfillment of the Burning Bush (she was not consumed by the divine fire of God she carried within her), she is the East Gate, which remains shut after the Prince has entered it, she is the Mountain not hewn by hands, the Unfading Rose. Etc. Many a hymn also speaks of her giving birth "without travail".

She is depicted in icons, including in those of her Dormition, as a youthful woman, despite her having reached a ripe old age. Saints who lived long lives are shown as aged.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 10:10:39 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2016, 10:10:09 PM »

I'm not sure I'm seeing all of that, either.

I think "without stain" is just as good as anything. Here is why:
a) the scope is peculiar. The Blessed Virgin isn't being compared to others who have given birth to God here. Therefore I conclude that it does indeed refer to the conception of Christ.

It does not only refer to her virginal conception of Christ. Orthodox hymns and icons speak of various other facets of her incorruption, most of the imagery drawn from scripture. She is the fulfillment of the Burning Bush (she was not consumed by the divine fire of God she carried within her), she is the East Gate, which remains shut after the Prince has entered it, she is the Mountain not hewn by hands, the Unfading Rose. Etc.

She is depicted in icons, including in those of her Dormition, as a youthful woman, despite her having reached a ripe old age. Saints who lived long lives are shown as aged.

I thought that the burning bush was the fulfillment of the burning bush. I guess I need to re-read the whole Bible.

I think this is good to talk about this, because I worry equally for you, in a spiritual sense. As in, I'm fairly confident that I could easily become Orthodox, apply for Catechesis, etc.... Except I'm not sure how to deal with people like you, who pronounce such platitudes..
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 10:30:14 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2016, 10:35:45 PM »
I comfort myself during these exchanges by knowing that the true suppleness and subtlety of LBK's mind cannot be done justice in the medium of forum posts.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2016, 10:56:48 PM »

I think this is good to talk about this, because I worry equally for you, in a spiritual sense. As in, I'm fairly confident that I could easily become Orthodox, apply for Catechesis, etc.... Except I'm not sure how to deal with people like you, who pronounce such platitudes..

It would be appreciated if you could point out the platitudes in my post.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2016, 11:46:52 PM »

I think this is good to talk about this, because I worry equally for you, in a spiritual sense. As in, I'm fairly confident that I could easily become Orthodox, apply for Catechesis, etc.... Except I'm not sure how to deal with people like you, who pronounce such platitudes..

It would be appreciated if you could point out the platitudes in my post.  :)

How will you prove your appreciation?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:54:48 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2016, 11:53:27 PM »
oops.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:53:50 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2016, 03:22:12 AM »
Not sure about the source but I agree with it, as a Catholic. Mother Mary's sinless perfection and plenitude in grace is revealed in the Angelic Salutation. "Hail, full of grace". The Greek word is kecharitomene, it literally means one in whom the giving of grace is complete. We Latins would understand it as St. Jerome translated, Ave, Gratia Plena. Literally, in whom every grace is full. Only Jesus is also called full of grace in the Gospels, by St. John (1:14). Jesus is the source of grace and Mary is the channel. Every grace that originates in God now reposes in Mary through the Holy Spirit who has espoused Her as His bride and so is given to us through Her so that She is our true Mother and New Eve in the order of grace. St. Luke is showing us Mary is the Seat of Wisdom, "I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue." (Wis 24:24) and Her fruit, Who is Eternal Wisdom, the divine Logos Himself, is pure gold, as King Solomon says of the Seat of Wisdom. The Queen of Prophets says "Truly all generations henceforth will call Me Blessed for He that is Mighty as done great things to Me" as it was written, "My memory is unto everlasting generations" and of course, every subsequent generation has indeed called the Most Holy Theootokos Blessed, however inconceivable it may have been from a human perspective.

When the Saints and Fathers, especially Greek Fathers, comment on Luk 1:28, they are lost in contemplation and speak with delight in praise of the wonders that Almighty God has wrought in Her most pure body and soul, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus says, "O purest one, O purest virgin, where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present, the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit, in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard thou hast put on the vesture of purity; God has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair; and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold"

And St. Theodotus of Ancyra likewise, "What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word."
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2016, 03:32:50 AM »
Thank you, Xavier.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2016, 06:01:07 PM »
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2016, 09:53:27 PM »
Not sure about the source but I agree with it, as a Catholic. Mother Mary's sinless perfection and plenitude in grace is revealed in the Angelic Salutation. "Hail, full of grace". The Greek word is kecharitomene, it literally means one in whom the giving of grace is complete. We Latins would understand it as St. Jerome translated, Ave, Gratia Plena. Literally, in whom every grace is full. Only Jesus is also called full of grace in the Gospels, by St. John (1:14). Jesus is the source of grace and Mary is the channel. Every grace that originates in God now reposes in Mary through the Holy Spirit who has espoused Her as His bride and so is given to us through Her so that She is our true Mother and New Eve in the order of grace. St. Luke is showing us Mary is the Seat of Wisdom, "I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue." (Wis 24:24) and Her fruit, Who is Eternal Wisdom, the divine Logos Himself, is pure gold, as King Solomon says of the Seat of Wisdom. The Queen of Prophets says "Truly all generations henceforth will call Me Blessed for He that is Mighty as done great things to Me" as it was written, "My memory is unto everlasting generations" and of course, every subsequent generation has indeed called the Most Holy Theootokos Blessed, however inconceivable it may have been from a human perspective.

When the Saints and Fathers, especially Greek Fathers, comment on Luk 1:28, they are lost in contemplation and speak with delight in praise of the wonders that Almighty God has wrought in Her most pure body and soul, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus says, "O purest one, O purest virgin, where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present, the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit, in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard thou hast put on the vesture of purity; God has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair; and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold"

And St. Theodotus of Ancyra likewise, "What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word."

I think Roman Catholics over-do it worst of all. It's why I can't ever be Catholic.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2016, 02:16:44 AM »
Not sure about the source but I agree with it, as a Catholic. Mother Mary's sinless perfection and plenitude in grace is revealed in the Angelic Salutation. "Hail, full of grace". The Greek word is kecharitomene, it literally means one in whom the giving of grace is complete. We Latins would understand it as St. Jerome translated, Ave, Gratia Plena. Literally, in whom every grace is full. Only Jesus is also called full of grace in the Gospels, by St. John (1:14). Jesus is the source of grace and Mary is the channel. Every grace that originates in God now reposes in Mary through the Holy Spirit who has espoused Her as His bride and so is given to us through Her so that She is our true Mother and New Eve in the order of grace. St. Luke is showing us Mary is the Seat of Wisdom, "I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue." (Wis 24:24) and Her fruit, Who is Eternal Wisdom, the divine Logos Himself, is pure gold, as King Solomon says of the Seat of Wisdom. The Queen of Prophets says "Truly all generations henceforth will call Me Blessed for He that is Mighty as done great things to Me" as it was written, "My memory is unto everlasting generations" and of course, every subsequent generation has indeed called the Most Holy Theootokos Blessed, however inconceivable it may have been from a human perspective.

When the Saints and Fathers, especially Greek Fathers, comment on Luk 1:28, they are lost in contemplation and speak with delight in praise of the wonders that Almighty God has wrought in Her most pure body and soul, St. Gregory Thaumaturgus says, "O purest one, O purest virgin, where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present, the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit, in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man's common standard thou hast put on the vesture of purity; God has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair; and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other:and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold"

And St. Theodotus of Ancyra likewise, "What did the divine messenger do then? Perceiving the Virgin's interior dispositions and perspicacity in her outward appearance and admiring her just prudence, he began to weave her a kind of floral crown with two peaks: one of joy and one of blessing; then he addressed her in a thrilling speech of praise, lifting up his hand and crying out: 'Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed' (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness....Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. He who is born of the holy is holy, holy and Lord of all the saints, holy and Giver of holiness. Wondrous is he who generated the Woman of wonder; Ineffable is he who precedes the Woman beyond words; Son of the Most High is he who springs from this highest creature, he who appears, not by man's willing it, but by the power of the Holy Spirit; he who is born is not a mere man, but God, the incarnate Word."

I think Roman Catholics over-do it worst of all. It's why I can't ever be Catholic.

That's why you are a Protestant.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2016, 07:53:28 PM »

I think Roman Catholics over-do it worst of all. It's why I can't ever be Catholic.

That's why you are a Protestant.

It's why I'm not Roman Catholic. The filoque has little to do with it.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2016, 05:12:58 PM »
What is the difference between phthora and diaphthora? Are you aware of any Bible or liturgical book that translates both categorically differently from each other?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:17:50 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2016, 05:13:47 PM »
Is there any actual difference between phthora and diaphthora?

What do you think?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2016, 05:17:29 PM »
Is there any actual difference between phthora and diaphthora?

What do you think?
I expressed myself very poorly, look at the edit. ISTM diaphthora is more intense, but I don't know how to put this in a translation. Maybe it's better to use one word for both, I don't recall them opposing each other directly anywere in the Bible (as in "phthora and diaphthora").
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:23:48 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2016, 05:23:54 PM »
What is the difference between phthora and diaphthora? Are you aware of any Bible or liturgical book that translates both categorically differently from each other?

There's a lively if brief discussion on the prior page. Perhaps you saw it and want more -- perhaps a more-methodical or -transparent survey than LBK's of the liturgical translation choices into English? I agree, that would be welcome. As I implied before, however, I personally have an impression of English translation choices that does not elevate them to great authority.


[Edited to add:] In my own process, I sometimes survey the whole TLG -- this doesn't include liturgics per se but does include Scripture and the Fathers ...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:46:26 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Xavier

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2016, 06:27:56 AM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 06:43:11 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2016, 08:43:07 PM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2016, 08:54:26 PM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2016, 10:28:39 PM »
Quote
I like the gospel of Luke, and I like that you're using Scripture to buffet your valued opinion, do you have any more?

1. Sure. Consider that later in that same chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke we see John the Baptist - among the very greatest of the Prophets according to the Word of Our Lord - leaps for joy in his mother's womb, "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit" (Lk 1:41) when Mother Mary carrying Christ comes to visit St. Elizabeth. The evangelist tells us St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at this greeting and said "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to visit me?" (Lk 1:43) which shows us the devotion, veneration and love the Saints have for the Mother of God. Even the Angelic promise that John the Baptist would, by a special grace, be annointed and filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb was fulfilled at the greeting of Mary, who was the the Ark carrying Christ Jesus Our Lord to that place. So St. Luke, after showing us the reverence the Prophets, the Saints, the Angels have for the Mother of God, instructs us about Mary being the Ark who gives grace to those who come to Christ through Her.

As you may know, patristic exegesis of the Gospels and the Scriptures show us the Holy Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. There is a parallel here with David leaping for joy and asking "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me"? (2 Sam 6:9-13) the annointed man dancing for joy before it, "the Ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obed-edom, and all his household" like Mother Mary in the house of St. Elizabeth for 3 months brought the Lord God's blessings there. Recall that the Israelites had the highest reverence for the Ark in the old testament as the very Glory of God was held to have overshadowed it, the Ark housed the Presence of God and they carried it even into battle, they mourned if it was not found. In the New Testament, St. John the Apostle says the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the Ark of his covenant"

2. This immediately precedes his description of the Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, a Crown of 12 Stars upon Her royal head (Rev 11:19-12:1). St. John, the same beloved Apostle to whom Christ Our Lord gave His Mother at the foot of the Cross saying, "Woman, behold your son", shows us subsequently that this Woman who dwells in the very light of God's glory and is clothed with the splendor of the sun is the Mother of God (Rev 12:5) and of all Christians (12:17).

St. Athanasius, invincible champion of the Holy Trinity against Arianism, bears witness to the understanding of the early Church, "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Thank you, Xavier. Glory to God! Blessed Mother, pray for us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2016, 10:31:41 PM »
Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg

I see what you did there. Very good.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2016, 10:33:17 PM »
Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg

I see what you did there. Very good.

What's so "great" about it? It's a "rhetorical" question. If you say "The egg", you missed the point.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 10:43:37 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2016, 11:21:17 PM »
Also, you can go on to quote any number of commentators or commentators.

Just as any Protestant may "protest" charges of Gnosticism, yet remain guilty. (I'm saying it's a possibility.)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 11:25:40 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2016, 12:20:07 AM »
Okay, so which came first: the chicken, or the egg?
The egg

I see what you did there. Very good.

What's so "great" about it? It's a "rhetorical" question. If you say "The egg", you missed the point.
If you don't understand the answer, I think it is you that has missed the point.
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2016, 01:14:45 AM »
If you don't understand the answer, I think it is you that has missed the point.

Snot fair.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2016, 03:10:11 AM »
So it's sort of like all of the rules changed after St. Mary was resurrected. Am I getting this right?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2016, 03:23:14 AM »
So it's sort of like all of the rules changed after St. Mary was resurrected. Am I getting this right?

No. No, you are getting this wrong.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2016, 10:43:45 AM »
Are you certain, Porter?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2016, 12:32:24 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 12:35:44 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2016, 12:36:45 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2016, 01:02:09 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 01:12:40 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2016, 02:17:20 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.

I don't think it's true that Orthodoxy "hasn't said one way or the other".  It's not dogmatically defined in quite the way it is in Roman Catholicism, and that is a significant difference between the two traditions, but IMO you can't really look at Orthodoxy on its own terms in any responsible way and come away with any other conclusion than that Orthodox believe and take for granted that the Mother of God did not commit sins.   

If there are people who teach otherwise, including clergy, it doesn't surprise me, but I wonder how much of that is actually a sincerely held (dis)belief and how much is merely their way of "not going there" with people who are not ready to deal with such things. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2016, 02:19:41 PM »
The only Orthodox authority I've seen who suggests she may have sinned is Chrysostom, who says she lapsed into vainglory when she demanded Jesus to come out and see her. The only place I've seen this opinion echoed is in Theophylact's gospel commentary, which relies heavily on Chrysostom.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 02:19:55 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2016, 02:45:05 PM »

I don't think it's true that Orthodoxy "hasn't said one way or the other".  It's not dogmatically defined in quite the way it is in Roman Catholicism, and that is a significant difference between the two traditions, but IMO you can't really look at Orthodoxy on its own terms in any responsible way and come away with any other conclusion than that Orthodox believe and take for granted that the Mother of God did not commit sins.   

If there are people who teach otherwise, including clergy, it doesn't surprise me, but I wonder how much of that is actually a sincerely held (dis)belief and how much is merely their way of "not going there" with people who are not ready to deal with such things.

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2016, 03:47:42 PM »
Although, they do say in the Liturgy, that Christ is the only sinless one.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 03:51:52 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #114 on: November 10, 2016, 05:28:01 PM »

I don't think it's true that Orthodoxy "hasn't said one way or the other".  It's not dogmatically defined in quite the way it is in Roman Catholicism, and that is a significant difference between the two traditions, but IMO you can't really look at Orthodoxy on its own terms in any responsible way and come away with any other conclusion than that Orthodox believe and take for granted that the Mother of God did not commit sins.   

If there are people who teach otherwise, including clergy, it doesn't surprise me, but I wonder how much of that is actually a sincerely held (dis)belief and how much is merely their way of "not going there" with people who are not ready to deal with such things.

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"

Who is "they"?  Dissuade anyone of what belief? 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #115 on: November 10, 2016, 05:29:07 PM »
Just imagine every few words of mcarmichael accompanied by puffs of smoke and he makes a lot more sense.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2016, 12:03:46 AM »

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"

Who is "they"?  Dissuade anyone of what belief?

Do you remember the topic, Mor? What day is it today?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 12:33:47 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2016, 12:45:39 AM »
"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

This quote is from an ACOTE clergyman, fyi.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 12:47:06 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2016, 01:44:31 AM »
I know some Orthodox (eg Father Kimel here) will respond that the Theotokos was sinless, but sinless in a different way from Christ. I find such arguments wholly unsatisfactory, but that is probably due to my own lack of piety.

Don't be so hard on yourself, mate. Let others do it for you.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2016, 03:35:33 AM »
Just imagine every few words of mcarmichael accompanied by puffs of smoke and he makes a lot more sense.

You are just envious.
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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2016, 08:46:04 AM »
Just imagine every few words of mcarmichael accompanied by puffs of smoke and he makes a lot more sense.

You are just envious.

No doubt.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2016, 11:37:57 AM »

They certainly don't seem to make any attempt to dissuade anyone of this belief. As the saying goes, "Silence cedes consent"

Who is "they"?  Dissuade anyone of what belief?

Do you remember the topic, Mor? What day is it today?

How imbecilic. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2016, 05:23:14 PM »
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 05:35:52 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2016, 05:27:11 PM »
Back on topic, fellas.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #124 on: November 11, 2016, 07:54:24 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
The fact is, we don't know. No contemporaries of the Theotokos said one way or another. It is conjecture. There are reasons given for both sides of it, but quite frankly, we do know that even if she did sin, she is exalted above all others, she is our mediatrix and is more glorious than all other created beings. Spending time debating about whether she ever committed a sin and how we define that sin is really just completely missing the point and the beauty of who she is.
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2016, 08:50:55 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
The fact is, we don't know. No contemporaries of the Theotokos said one way or another. It is conjecture. There are reasons given for both sides of it, but quite frankly, we do know that even if she did sin, she is exalted above all others, she is our mediatrix and is more glorious than all other created beings. Spending time debating about whether she ever committed a sin and how we define that sin is really just completely missing the point and the beauty of who she is.

Didn't she have an advantage, though, being a woman?

Because I'm the type of guy who like to be thorough, only.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2016, 08:56:57 PM »
I saw an Orthodox priest say that "whether she ever sinned or not is above my pay grade."

How does one do that? This fellow is leading others, and doesn't know what he himself is doing??
Isn't it rather perilous?

The primary school teacher who taught you your times tables didn't (need to) know about differential equations.

but if she was teaching us differential equations, and didn't quite understand them herself, you could imagine the difficulty.

Unless it really is true, that the Orthodox hasn't said one way or the other.
The fact is, we don't know. No contemporaries of the Theotokos said one way or another. It is conjecture. There are reasons given for both sides of it, but quite frankly, we do know that even if she did sin, she is exalted above all others, she is our mediatrix and is more glorious than all other created beings. Spending time debating about whether she ever committed a sin and how we define that sin is really just completely missing the point and the beauty of who she is.

Didn't she have an advantage, though, being a woman?

Because I'm the type of guy who like to be thorough, only.
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2016, 09:14:52 PM »
Before I regret something...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:15:33 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2016, 09:16:22 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:18:38 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline biro

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2016, 09:18:09 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all.

Not in our church.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2016, 09:19:20 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all.

Not in our church.
Perhaps.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2016, 10:34:21 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.

They aren't Orthodox, which was supposed to be the point of this thread according to its title. Don't move the goalposts.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #132 on: November 11, 2016, 10:35:20 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.
Nestorians are heretics. You cannot deny the title Theotokos and be Orthodox.
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #133 on: November 11, 2016, 10:40:31 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.

They aren't Orthodox, which was supposed to be the point of this thread according to its title. Don't move the goalposts.

If you had been paying attention, you'd have noted that this came from an ACOTE clergyman, sir.

Not that I am any fan of Ecumecicism, btw.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:52:09 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #134 on: November 11, 2016, 10:42:42 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.
Nestorians are heretics. You cannot deny the title Theotokos and be Orthodox.
They admit it, albeit somewhat reluctantly.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2016, 11:07:18 PM »
There are lots of women. There is only one Theotokos.
Even that title is disputed, however. ie., not "embraced" by all. ie. non-Ephesians.

They aren't Orthodox, which was supposed to be the point of this thread according to its title. Don't move the goalposts.

If you had been paying attention, you'd have noted that this came from an ACOTE clergyman, sir.


I've scanned through this entire thread twice, and I'm not finding the reference. Not saying it's there, but please point it out to me.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #136 on: November 11, 2016, 11:16:55 PM »

I've scanned through this entire thread twice, and I'm not finding the reference. Not saying it's there, but please point it out to me.

"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

This quote is from an ACOTE clergyman, fyi.

I'm not sure that I follow the logic, fwiw.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 11:22:42 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #137 on: November 11, 2016, 11:27:13 PM »

I've scanned through this entire thread twice, and I'm not finding the reference. Not saying it's there, but please point it out to me.

"...The fact that the angel Gabriel called her 'Full of Grace' indicates that the Mother of our Lord enjoyed a singular favor separating her from all of the race of women--the grace of God which prepared and elected her to be the Mother of the Son of God incarnate. Thus, she did not commit any sin which one commits on a daily basis."

This quote is from an ACOTE clergyman, fyi.

10-4, thanks.

Provenance of the quote aside, it doesn't have any bearing on the ACOTE's use or non-use of "Theotokos."

So I guess harkening all the way back to the OP in August, nothing seems wrong with the somewhat broad quote from the ACOTE clergyman. Their rejection of the title "Theotokos," however, IS an issue.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #138 on: November 11, 2016, 11:29:49 PM »
Since this thread is really about an ACOTE understanding rather than a Protestant one, I'm shipping it to the general Orthodox-Other Christian forum.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #139 on: November 11, 2016, 11:50:50 PM »

So I guess harkening all the way back to the OP in August, nothing seems wrong with the somewhat broad quote from the ACOTE clergyman. Their rejection of the title "Theotokos," however, IS an issue.

Unless you've been living in a cave since 1994, idk what's going on here.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #140 on: November 11, 2016, 11:55:15 PM »
What is ACOTE?
God bless!

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2016, 12:03:12 AM »
What is ACOTE?

Assyrian Church of the East.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2016, 12:03:47 AM »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2016, 12:04:23 AM »
What is ACOTE?

Assyrian Church of the East.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2016, 12:05:30 AM »

Unless you've been living in a cave since 1994, idk what's going on here.

I don't think many people reading your posts know what's going on.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2016, 12:27:40 AM »
Since this thread is really about an ACOTE understanding rather than a Protestant one, I'm shipping it to the general Orthodox-Other Christian forum.

I hope everyone will continue to participate.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2016, 01:24:30 AM »
I've removed a bunch of off-topic posts that had nothing to do with nothing. Carry on with on-topic conversation.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #147 on: November 12, 2016, 01:29:06 AM »

Considering that I'd just extended you grace with a private, non-punitive warning about general forum behavior only moments ago, and that we were communicating by PM as you posted this, consider yourself formally warned for publicly questioning moderation.

You also used profanity in the moderated forums. Fifteen points for you.

If you feel this is unfair, appeal through the proper channels.

--Agabus[/color][/b]

Yes, funny how we were just talking, and then suddenly you removed everything I said. All of which followed, btw.

Nothing to do about it now, except apologize.

If Scamandrius can boast that he is not subject to addictions, I feel that I can rightfully say that what I said followed.

Which nobody will see, or verify, because it's been removed, although I cannot remove my own comments.

Thus, the title, (removed - Mor).

Edited to remove profanity.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 11:21:40 AM by Mor Ephrem »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #148 on: November 12, 2016, 11:20:20 AM »

Considering that I'd just extended you grace with a private, non-punitive warning about general forum behavior only moments ago, and that we were communicating by PM as you posted this, consider yourself formally warned for publicly questioning moderation.

You also used profanity in the moderated forums. Fifteen points for you.

If you feel this is unfair, appeal through the proper channels.

--Agabus[/color][/b]

Yes, funny how we were just talking, and then suddenly you removed everything I said. All of which followed, btw.

Nothing to do about it now, except apologize.

If Scamandrius can boast that he is not subject to addictions, I feel that I can rightfully say that what I said followed.

Which nobody will see, or verify, because it's been removed, although I cannot remove my own comments.

Thus, the title, (removed - Mor).

mcarmichael,

Since you've been warned in the past for use of profanity, ad hominem, and gross disrespect of moderators and their legitimate directives, I am sure you realise your error here.  Therefore, I am adding an additional forty-five (45) points to your current warning. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 11:22:04 AM by Mor Ephrem »
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #149 on: November 12, 2016, 09:02:37 PM »
I apologize. I have a very poor temper.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Is this "Orthodox", concerning the Theotokos?
« Reply #150 on: November 16, 2016, 01:13:52 AM »
From Antiochian.org (http://www.antiochian.org/node/17079):

Quote
The Orthodox Church calls Mary “immaculate,” and “all pure,” as a manifestation of the Orthodox understanding of salvation as deification. Orthodox Christians believe that through the grace of God Mary has been deified or made by grace what God is by nature or, as St. Paul wrote, “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another …” Vladimir Lossky wrote, “ … the very heart of the Church, one of her most secret mysteries, her mystical center, her perfection already realized in a human person fully united to God, finding herself beyond the resurrection and the judgment. This person is Mary, the Mother of God.” Thus salvation for Orthodox theology is more than the forgiveness of sins or justification, but is also the transformation of the believer by the grace of God to become a partaker of the Divine Nature. Orthodox Christians see the realization of salvation in the deification of Mary.

"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb