Poll

Given the recent questions posed about the relevance of the ecumenical Patriarch following the various unpleasant incidents preceding the Ecumenical Council, the psuedo-Papism advocated by the Metropolitan of Bursa, and the fact that aside from ACROD, the

Retain the status quo
9 (24.3%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to Mount Athos
3 (8.1%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to Thessalonika, Patmos or another Greek area under its jurisdiction
3 (8.1%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to the Diaspora (New York, London or another city with substantial multi-ethnic EP representation)
2 (5.4%)
Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece
13 (35.1%)
Revoke the autocephaly of the Patriarchate and transfer Canon 28 functions and custody of the Patriarchal jurisdictions to Alexandria
3 (8.1%)
Revoke the autocephaly of the Patriarchate and transfer Canon 28 functions to Moscow or another jurisdiction
2 (5.4%)
Other option (Please specify)
2 (5.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?  (Read 4833 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Online Asteriktos

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 12:29:43 AM by Asteriktos »
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline wgw

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I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin. 
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline DeniseDenise

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin.


Lord have mercy!


Can't you just read a post like the one you replied to and go 'haha funny' and not believe it needs a factual lecture in reply?

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin.


Lord have mercy!


Can't you just read a post like the one you replied to and go 'haha funny' and not believe it needs a factual lecture in reply?

Most amusing. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline wgw

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin.


Lord have mercy!


Can't you just read a post like the one you replied to and go 'haha funny' and not believe it needs a factual lecture in reply?

Most amusing.

You've got me there! ;)
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline hecma925

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I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.

Athonite=ACRODite?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline biro

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I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.

Can you please leave the decision to 'brighten up' various churches to people who are in those churches?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Antonis

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http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 02:04:08 AM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline hecma925

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2016, 02:05:21 AM »
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline Luke

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2016, 02:36:54 AM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Offline hecma925

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2016, 03:00:11 AM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline FinnJames

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2016, 05:53:53 AM »


I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.

Can you please leave the decision to 'brighten up' various churches to people who are in those churches?

+1

Offline Alpo

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2016, 06:33:18 AM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Your Divine All-Holiness, welcome to 'Murica.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:38:19 AM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2016, 12:59:25 PM »


http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...

And the Ecumenical Patriarchate canonised him anyway.  Seems the Patriarchate has thicker skin than its online defenders.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2016, 02:19:23 PM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?

I certainly do, but Syriac Orthodox coffee is better.  Seriously, the coffee at St. Ephrem's Cathedral in Burbank is better than anything you could buy even in a posh European coffeehouse like Caffe Nero.

However, even that pales in comparison to the glory of Ethiopian coffee, which is a divine blessing.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline mike

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2016, 02:22:17 PM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?

I certainly do, but Syriac Orthodox coffee is better.  Seriously, the coffee at St. Ephrem's Cathedral in Burbank is better than anything you could buy even in a posh European coffeehouse like Caffe Nero.

However, even that pales in comparison to the glory of Ethiopian coffee, which is a divine blessing.

How is coffee Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox for that matter)?
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Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2016, 02:57:44 PM »


http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...

I believe the venerable and blessed Elder is wrong, although in all other respects Elder Paisios is admirable and probably will be glorified, and his concerns furthermore were not unjustified; the Athonite community I believe was owed a careful and detailed explanation of the reasons why reconciliation with Rome should be attempted, and the conditions under which it would neccessarily happen (a Roman capitulation to the Orthodox doctrine), and a certain lack of sensitivity caused the tragic Esphigmenou events; I venerated his relics once, I think (they were either his relics, or those of one of the other Hesychast elders of Athos of the 20th century, the skull preserved intact at St. Anthomy's in Florence). 

Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches.  My belief is that by and large, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is politically and ethnographically captive; we discussed in the other thread the impossibility of Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus being admitted to the Constantinopolitan synod and made Ecumenical Patriarch due to the current policy that the Patriarch must be a Turkish citizen.

By the way, I would also propose the requirement of Turkish citizenship is arbitrary and uncanonical; it presupposes a need for the Patriarch to enter Constantinople, when probably more than half of the Patriarchs of Antioch mecer set foot there, and when it appears from a listing of their directory of hierarchs, most Constantinopolitan bishops outside of the Church of Finland are nominally the pastors  of defunct dioceses in Asia Minor, even in those cases where they also serve a real, living jurisdiction (for example, HG Gregorios of Nyassa, who I think is probably one of the better qualified candidates to succede His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years).

So to me, it makes no sense that the EP must physically reside in Istanbul when it seems like most of his synod are, in addition to their real dioceses, nominally the bishops of empty dioceses which sadly exist only in paper, as memories, or as poetic psuedonyms for current jurisdictions, and these bishops do not reside in these dioceses and may not have even been there; probably most have never actually served a liturgy in their respective titular dioceses, or if they have, it was a one-off special event.  I see nothing wrong with preserving the names of these dioceses as a memorial to them and as a reminder of the need to repopulate them, and thus I see no need for the Ecumenical Patriarch himself to metaphorically atone for all of these titular sees by sticking it out in Stamboul.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2016, 02:59:20 PM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?

I certainly do, but Syriac Orthodox coffee is better.  Seriously, the coffee at St. Ephrem's Cathedral in Burbank is better than anything you could buy even in a posh European coffeehouse like Caffe Nero.

However, even that pales in comparison to the glory of Ethiopian coffee, which is a divine blessing.

How is coffee Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox for that matter)?

This article from Fr. Andrew S. Damick neatly explains the matter:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2013/12/31/coffeedoxy-and-heterodoxy/
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Antonis

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2016, 04:23:11 PM »


http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...

I believe the venerable and blessed Elder is wrong, although in all other respects Elder Paisios is admirable and probably will be glorified, and his concerns furthermore were not unjustified; the Athonite community I believe was owed a careful and detailed explanation of the reasons why reconciliation with Rome should be attempted, and the conditions under which it would neccessarily happen (a Roman capitulation to the Orthodox doctrine), and a certain lack of sensitivity caused the tragic Esphigmenou events; I venerated his relics once, I think (they were either his relics, or those of one of the other Hesychast elders of Athos of the 20th century, the skull preserved intact at St. Anthomy's in Florence). 

Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches.  My belief is that by and large, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is politically and ethnographically captive; we discussed in the other thread the impossibility of Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus being admitted to the Constantinopolitan synod and made Ecumenical Patriarch due to the current policy that the Patriarch must be a Turkish citizen.

By the way, I would also propose the requirement of Turkish citizenship is arbitrary and uncanonical; it presupposes a need for the Patriarch to enter Constantinople, when probably more than half of the Patriarchs of Antioch mecer set foot there, and when it appears from a listing of their directory of hierarchs, most Constantinopolitan bishops outside of the Church of Finland are nominally the pastors  of defunct dioceses in Asia Minor, even in those cases where they also serve a real, living jurisdiction (for example, HG Gregorios of Nyassa, who I think is probably one of the better qualified candidates to succede His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years).

So to me, it makes no sense that the EP must physically reside in Istanbul when it seems like most of his synod are, in addition to their real dioceses, nominally the bishops of empty dioceses which sadly exist only in paper, as memories, or as poetic psuedonyms for current jurisdictions, and these bishops do not reside in these dioceses and may not have even been there; probably most have never actually served a liturgy in their respective titular dioceses, or if they have, it was a one-off special event.  I see nothing wrong with preserving the names of these dioceses as a memorial to them and as a reminder of the need to repopulate them, and thus I see no need for the Ecumenical Patriarch himself to metaphorically atone for all of these titular sees by sticking it out in Stamboul.
St. Paisios has already been glorified, and you likely venerated the skull of Elder Joseph the Hesychast.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2016, 04:44:04 PM »
Very good.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2016, 11:34:56 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2016, 11:43:52 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\

What's the current approach? 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2016, 04:09:27 PM »
A low iconstasis sounds awesome.   

Why should Moscow get to be the EP?   Let it stay put in Constantinople.   There are only 4,000 Orthodox in Turkey but I honestly wonder sometimes if there are that many real Orthodox in Russia beyond those only in name and baptism.  From what I have heard, the churches are mostly empty and most people confuse faith in Christ with nationalism and use the Church to stoke the flames of contempt for western values.

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Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2016, 04:20:51 PM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\

I don't wish for that, I wish for the Church of Constantinople to be free from political constraints upon the selection of its Primate.  Such a firebrand monastic probably would be anti-OO, but thats OK, because reunion will take time, we are pro-EO, usually, and there are bigger fish to fry.  But my preferred candidate for the next EP btw is HG Gregorios of Nyassa, the leader of ACROD.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2016, 04:29:54 PM »
A low iconstasis sounds awesome.   

Why should Moscow get to be the EP?   Let it stay put in Constantinople.   There are only 4,000 Orthodox in Turkey but I honestly wonder sometimes if there are that many real Orthodox in Russia beyond those only in name and baptism.  From what I have heard, the churches are mostly empty and most people confuse faith in Christ with nationalism and use the Church to stoke the flames of contempt for western values.

This is really a red herring argument considering that what I have been pushing for is locating the EP in Greece, in Thessalonika or Patmos, so as to provide increased freedom of speech; I offered Moscow as an option in the poll for the sake of completeness, and merely opined about Moscow as a possible host to the Patriarchate if censorship laws became prevalent even in Eastern Europe (bearing in mind Russia has its own problems in this area).  The EP must be free to preach the Gospel; ideally, this means he should be free to criticize any government, free to speak frankly about Islam and free to address issues like homosexuality, abortion and the role of women from an Orthodox perspective.  So for this reason, I also included relocating the Patriarchate to the diaspora as an option, for example, to New York City.

Regarding your complaint about the Russian church, this is in my opinion quite erroneous, and it is also offtopic, so I will address that in another thead.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2016, 05:21:04 PM »
What censorship laws in Eastern Europe?

I sometimes wonder about you fetishizing the externals of your religion, honestly, WGW.  There are treasures in Orthodoxy but too many traditionalists seem to gravitate to the wrong things.  The needful thing about liturgy is worshipping God in spirit and truth, not iconstases or having a nice choir.  I sometimes think you guys need a Theology of the Cross as a corrective to this focus on outward glory.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 05:24:39 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2016, 05:49:06 PM »
I sometimes think you guys need a Theology of the Cross as a corrective to this focus on outward glory.

LOL.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #119 on: August 04, 2016, 05:53:08 PM »
What censorship laws in Eastern Europe?

I sometimes wonder about you fetishizing the externals of your religion, honestly, WGW.  There are treasures in Orthodoxy but too many traditionalists seem to gravitate to the wrong things.  The needful thing about liturgy is worshipping God in spirit and truth, not iconstases or having a nice choir.  I sometimes think you guys need a Theology of the Cross as a corrective to this focus on outward glory.

WOW the heterodox telling us what we need, yet if we were to say you need to come to the true faith, there would be huffing, and puffing.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #120 on: August 04, 2016, 06:20:16 PM »
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Given all the radical Islamic madness going on, no one would want to go back to Istanbul.

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #121 on: August 05, 2016, 02:16:19 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\

I don't wish for that, I wish for the Church of Constantinople to be free from political constraints upon the selection of its Primate. 

But that does not happen anywhere, maybe with the exception of the OCA.
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #122 on: August 05, 2016, 07:43:30 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\
I believe the ecumenical movement bases itself on politics, rather than actual wish for reunion. Beside Russian-Armenian alliance, and maybe Pan-Christian cooperation in the Middle East, EO-OO dialogue tragically doesn't meet these logics.

If the ecumenical movement actually spared a moment to think about reunion and disregard politics (hypothetical situation), the flatteries reserved for the Pope would probably reach Old Calendarists, Orientals and nationalist schismatics in a second.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 07:47:43 AM by RaphaCam »
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