Poll

Given the recent questions posed about the relevance of the ecumenical Patriarch following the various unpleasant incidents preceding the Ecumenical Council, the psuedo-Papism advocated by the Metropolitan of Bursa, and the fact that aside from ACROD, the

Retain the status quo
9 (23.7%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to Mount Athos
3 (7.9%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to Thessalonika, Patmos or another Greek area under its jurisdiction
3 (7.9%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to the Diaspora (New York, London or another city with substantial multi-ethnic EP representation)
2 (5.3%)
Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece
14 (36.8%)
Revoke the autocephaly of the Patriarchate and transfer Canon 28 functions and custody of the Patriarchal jurisdictions to Alexandria
3 (7.9%)
Revoke the autocephaly of the Patriarchate and transfer Canon 28 functions to Moscow or another jurisdiction
2 (5.3%)
Other option (Please specify)
2 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author Topic: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?  (Read 8977 times)

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Offline wgw

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I believe the Ecumenical Patriarchate, with the exception of a few bright apots like Mount Athos and ACROD, has become "lukewarm" and is need of reform.  His All Holiness is a most pious and reverant bishop, but the recent ecumenical council failed to accomplish any of the grand objectives envisaged for it in the 1970s, and in the run-up to the council, the Patriarchate's handling of the protesta of Bulgaria, Antioch and other jurisdictions came across as arrogant and even vindictive.

The Patriarchate suffers from a notable lack of non-Greek bishops in jurisdictions where such a bishop would be desirable, and at the same time, the autonomous bishops of the Church of Finland, in particular, Metropolitan Ambrosius, have caused disappointment to the Orthodox community through their conduct.

Additionally, while the Moscow Patriarchate itself is not perfect, I believe the Ecumenical Patriarchate has acted towards Moscow in a manner that is belligerent and hostile, and has encouraged nationalist Orthodox in former Soviet countries to form their own jurisdictions, despite having in the 19th century condemned as a heresy ethnophyletism in response to the Bulgarian Church separating itself from Constantinople.

Then we have the scandalous treatment of the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, the failure of the Patriarchate after several years to resolve the question of the Church of Jerusalem* having a parish in Qatar, in an apparent and possible violation of Antiochene canonical territory (I believe if Constantinople wishes to rule in Jerusalem's favour, they must explain why this apparent intrusion is canonical, and not just leave the matter unaddressed), and the well-documented decay of GOARCh in attendance, and a great many complaints about poor ecclesiastical performance in GoArch, which stand in marked contrast to ACROD. 

I believe these actions are largely due to the requirement that the Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, and vested interests in the Phanariote community, as well as the possibility of political meddling.   I believe that Turkey, in particular the large Alevi minority, is ripe for evangelization, but that the Patriarchate is not in a position to conduct such evangelization given its location in increasingly hostile conditions.

I believe, and have voted for, the Patriarchate to be relocated to Thessalonika, in the same manner that the Patriarchates of Antioch have historically been in Damascus, Tur Abdin, Lebanon and other places due to the collapse of Antioch's Christian community, and indeed based on the presence of the other Eastern Patriarchs in the Byzantine Court for many years following the loss of those lands to the Caliphates.

However, others might well see this differently, so I thought I would open a poll and see what people feel ought to be done.

Note that the question is not, how should this be done, but rather, what should be done.  "How" is a tricky question, but I believe a pan-Orthodox council, which is, by the Patriarchates own definition, "binding and authoritative" even for non-participating churches (for example, even if the EP refused to attend), could lawfully effect the change, and this change, if it were one which was unanimously and uncontroversially adopted by the other sees, would probably be respected by a majority of the components of the Ecumenical Patriarchate outside of Turkey. 
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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).
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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.
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Offline FinnJames

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

Offline biro

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

Yeah.  :(
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Offline Dominika

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Yeah, have forgotten about both!

I'm not specialist in Greeks at all (edit: except their contacts with Arabs during Byzantine Empire times), but for some reasons Cyprus ahs got autocephaly very fastly, I mean - was there a kind of feeling they're something different a bit? Because of being an island?...
Cilicia was probably a great mixture...
Anyway, waiting for sb explaining these cases better, it would be interesting.


So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o
Yeah, Orthodox Internet forums are quite often a way to dream of realising your ideas, that you would fulfil if you were a bishop or another important person. If only you were! Well, maybe sometimes there is a hope a hierarch will read it and at least will rethink the issue.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:17:15 PM by Dominika »
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I'm not specialist in Greeks at all, but for some reasons Cyprus ahs got autocephaly very fastly, I mean - was there a kind of feeling they're something different a bit? Because of being an island?...

Maybe because jurisdictions were planned not for nationalities but for administrative borders.
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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question. 
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

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Offline Dominika

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I'm not specialist in Greeks at all, but for some reasons Cyprus ahs got autocephaly very fastly, I mean - was there a kind of feeling they're something different a bit? Because of being an island?...

Maybe because jurisdictions were planned not for nationalities but for administrative borders.
Thx, that has a reason. Anyway, nowadays the concept of jurisdictions is/tends to be/tries to be different. So, Church of Cyprus, despite being Greek one, would be something normal, compared with Constantinople and the Church of Greece, plus Alexandria and Jerusalem governed by Greeks.

I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question. 
:laugh: I've just read the title of the thread "What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?" ;)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:26:25 PM by Dominika »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.


How could you even expect any less ?


or is that more....
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Offline wgw

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

As explained in the other thread, the extent to which I support liturgical reform in the Byzantine Rite is basically the program being conducted by ROCOR (not as neccessarily envisaged by the ROCOR hierarchs, but what is actually being done, for example, traditional chant has been restored but the parishes blocked removal of the Obikhod), combined with the restoration of disused liturgies, especially on their saints days, which Jordanville and others, like Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, are already doing, coupled with the possible limited use of a reconstructed processional Cathedral Rite in Serbia or elsewhere on certain extremely special occasions, with station churches, processional liturgies and so on, and also the robust celebration of the divine office. 

If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.

Note by the way, I believe you inadvertantly employed an argumentum ad hominem, not as a flame or as anything intended to be insulting, but rather, consider: any user could have posted this thread and they would have a point.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not pulling its weight and requires reform.    A case in point would be your own church, which is, in my opinion, failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community resulting in the uncanonical presence of overlapping jurisdictions, because ROCOR (or the MP, I forget which) is there.  This is ethnophyletism; your church should be running those parishes and offering Russian-Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar and offering these where possible in the same building as the Finnish-Gregorian services, in order to avoid the redundant duplication of parishes and dioceses in what is technically an Orthodox land, an area where overlapping jurisdictions are most disagreeable.  I will grant you, this problem might well reaide with the Russians as much as with your church, but tell me: have the bishops of your church tried to work with the Russians to build trust and unite these parishes under the Omophorion of your archbishop?

Constantinople is divided into ethnic silos.  As it happens, one of these silos, ACROD, is fantastic, boasting the highest attendance rates in America, but another of these, GoArch, is suffering congregational losses that rival those of mainline Protestantism (at a time when other Orthodox jurisdictions are growing), is convert-hostile, and in several places has not unjustly been regarded as concerned more with the preservation of Hellenic culture than the Orthodox faith.  We need the Christocentric culture of ACROD in all the EP jurisdictions.

This is particularly a problem when one considers how small the EP is, overall, even counting its presence in the diaspora.  I believe the current divisions between Greek, ACROD, and Ukranian Orthodox churches in the diaspora, and also a few Jerusalem Orthodox parishes I hear, should be dissolved, and these should all simply be called "Eastern Orthodox" and increasingly integrated.  In the case of your Church of Finland, I believe your church should be revamped and made autocephalous, and in the case of the Estonians and the Russian emigres of Paris, these should be returned to the MP to provide a unified Russian Orthodox church, with the stipulation that they retain the same autonomy and privileges they enjoy under Constantinople.   And I believe Constantinople should retain those portions of Greece where it is located, and Mount Athos, and I personally think HG Gregory of Nyassa ought to be the next Ecumenical Patriarchate, and that he shoukd appoint as his advisors, to titular sees like the Metropolis of Bursa, Athonite monastics, so that his administration reflects a balance between what is among the best in contemporary Orthodoxy (ACROD) and the traditional fortress of Orthodox thought and practice.

But, I believe it is vital that the next ecumenical Patriarch not reside in Turkey, but in Greece or the Diaspora; the Ecumenical Patriarch needs to be closer to his flock, very few of whom still live in Turkey due to the tragedies of the genocide of the Pontic Greeks and the forced population exchanges; his cathedral should be as majestic a cathedral as exists, and not the relatively humble and fragile edifice that is St. George's, and I believe it is vital that the Church convene an ecumenical council to command this* and to clarify Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and also impose some form of accountability mechanism to ensure that appeals to Conatantinople, like that made by Antioch over Qatar, are dealt with immediately.

Now, that is my opinion... what is yours?

* I do not believe any of this should happen while His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, and certain other elderly and much loved bishops are still alove, may God grant them many years, for three reasons:

1. I am not convinced that His All Holiness is personally responsible for many of the more apalling failures of his jurisdiction in the past few years; historically, throughout most of his tenure, while there were several unaddressed problems like the culture at GoArch, other things, like ecumenical relationships, were done in a very appropriate manner.

2. The possibility exists that His All Holiness is aware of these failures and is working to rectify them (consider the rumors and innuendo of late that His Eminence the Metropolitan of Bursa, who has been a part of the problem, might possibly be leaving), or that other conditions would change wherein Turkey might be a safe and welcoming country for Orthodox Christians and might allow the Ecumenical Patriarch to seek to evangelize the Turks, who need the Gospel.

3. Certain venerable bishops including His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch, His Eminence the Metropolitan of Diokleia, and others, having spent a lifetime providing distinguished service for the church, should not be exposed to the indignities that will accompany the neccessary pan-Orthodox process of EP-reform, a process which could cause a minor schism, and for that reason in particular, these venerable bishops should not be exposed to that sort of stress or potentially forced to choose sides if the EP were to be bifurcated.

The failure of the Pan Orthodox Synod and the other numerous failures of the EP make it clear that on the whole, it is failing spiritually and administratively; it is becoming a lukewarm church; the Orthodox community as a whole has a dominical mandate to reform it by taking the cool, soothing, refreshimg waters of the Gospel which spring from Mount Athos and from ACROD, and spreading these throughout the Church of Constantinople, reforming it into a dynamic entity that is qualified to hold the dignity of primus internpares by merit and not privilege (I believe that the diptychs should not be fixed as an inheritance, but that if the primatial church grossly fails and refuses to perform, it should be reformed, or another church should take its place, and indeed, the EO have been through that once already with Rome; perhaps if the EP cannot be reformed, the Thirteenth Apostle might take over as the first among equals, which is actually in a sense what happened in the OO communion, except the Coptic Pope lacks a juridicial mandate like Canon 28 of Chalcedon).

People look to the Ecumenical Patriarchate to provide leadership, but most of the actual spiritual leadership amd excellence in that jurisdiction is coming from either the Holy Mountain, ACROD, the monasteries of Elder Ephraim, and a few other spiritual "hotspots," not the Phanar, not GoArch, and begging your pardon FinnJames, not the Church of Finland.
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Offline wgw

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.

That was a technical error I should have caught during editing, apologies.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline DeniseDenise

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.

That was a technical error I should have caught during editing, apologies.


super-verbosity is not a technical error.  ;)
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Offline Dominika

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.
There is always lacking something. Always. If not liturgically, so in management, spiritual fathers. Or, usually, even liturgically it can't be perfect. Moreover, we can discuss, even in certan jurisdiction, what is really traditional or proper, and we won't reach consensus.


Constantinople is divided into ethnic silos.  As it happens, one of these silos, ACROD, is fantastic, boasting the highest attendance rates in America, but another of these, GoArch, is suffering congregational losses that rival those of mainline Protestantism (at a time when other Orthodox jurisdictions are growing), is convert-hostile, and in several places has not unjustly been regarded as concerned more with the preservation of Hellenic culture than the Orthodox faith. jurisdictions.
GOARCH is really so bad? As I've said in another thread, I'd felt much better in GOARCH's parishes (3 exactly) than in Polish ones, despite me nothing to do with Greeks or Hellenism. Readins also oc.net, I see that there are quite a lot of converts in this jurisdiction. Much more than ACROD. And the bishop of ACROD is not even of the same ethnicity like his flock (yeah, I know, you can give the example of Albanian Church, but it's quite different story).


his cathedral should be as majestic a cathedral as exists, and not the relatively humble and fragile edifice that is St. George's,
True.
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Offline wgw

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Cyprus has been autocephalous, afaik, for as long as there has been autocephaly; it never became associated with the ancient archbishoprics of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, or the East (Edessa or Seleucia-Cstesiphon), and when Jerusalem was rebuilt and Constantinople became Secundus inter Pares after Rome, as New Rome, it retained its dignity, and this was upheld IIRC in one of the ecumenical councils. 

On the other hand, after the Church of Constantinople was organized, Greece and Asia Minor up until a certain ecclesiastical border with Antioch became its jurisdiction, and these I would argue are organically and logically a part of what the Church of Conatantinople would look like, if Asia Minor and Greece were still united and still Christian, or if Turkey were to be evangelized and join with Greece in a new political union in the future.

I feel that at present, the Church of Greece is a healthier and more robuat juriadiction than Conatantinople, and Constantinople must be fixed before it can be expanded. 

Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.

Is there anyone who will dispute that the figure of 2,000 or so faithful in Turkey, and also the total number of Turks who are members of any Orthodox church, EO or OO, is unacceptable?  It may be the fault of history, but it cannot be allowed to continue.
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Offline wgw

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.

That was a technical error I should have caught during editing, apologies.


super-verbosity is not a technical error.  ;)

No, but overrunning a field is.   Actually, the UI letting me overrun the field length and not tossing an error is a software bug, but I should have previewed the post.

I thought that question was where the bulk of my post should be; I have not posted many polls here.

At any rate, I believe the title makes the question clear, and my own comments explain my reasons for asking it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 03:29:34 PM by wgw »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Cyprus has been autocephalous, afaik, for as long as there has been autocephaly; it never became associated with the ancient archbishoprics of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, or the East (Edessa or Seleucia-Cstesiphon), and when Jerusalem was rebuilt and Constantinople became Secundus inter Pares after Rome, as New Rome, it retained its dignity, and this was upheld IIRC in one of the ecumenical councils. 

On the other hand, after the Church of Constantinople was organized, Greece and Asia Minor up until a certain ecclesiastical border with Antioch became its jurisdiction, and these I would argue are organically and logically a part of what the Church of Conatantinople would look like, if Asia Minor and Greece were still united and still Christian, or if Turkey were to be evangelized and join with Greece in a new political union in the future.

I feel that at present, the Church of Greece is a healthier and more robuat juriadiction than Conatantinople, and Constantinople must be fixed before it can be expanded. 

Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.

Ishikis also believe the Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, etc., were in fact Alevis under different names. So in some respects, it's almost Trail of Blood-ish.
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Offline Dominika

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Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.
A few centuries ago there were some Western missionaries in Syria only to bring Alavits (that are also, like Alevis, a syncretic Islam, with taqiyya, misticism and some practices similar to Christian ones) to Christianity, as they thought they're in fact "lost" Christians. They failed. And the reason is simple: beacaue of the taqiyya we have no clue (or know very little) in what they really believe and what are their real religious practices.
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Offline Samn!

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2. Independent Cilicia.

Cilicia has always been under the patriarchate of Antioch, not Constantinople. There's still a Turkish-speaking parish in Mersin (which, prior to the aftermath of WWI used to be an entire diocese) under Antioch. They even have a website: http://www.mersinortodoks.com/
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 04:22:32 PM by Samn! »

Offline FinnJames

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If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.

Mine is a cathedral parish, so I think you would be at least grudgingly satisfied with the variety of services during the week, the wealth of icons, the vestments and the choir. Since the diocese was carved out of another when another bishop was added to the Finnish Church hierarchy, the building was originally intended as a ‘mere’ church/temple so would probably disappoint. I know that you personally, wgw, would not approve of the low iconostasis, but the congregation here is happy with it. And some have even told me they prefer it to the floor-to-ceiling ‘wall of icons’ it replaced.

Note by the way, I believe you inadvertantly employed an argumentum ad hominem, not as a flame or as anything intended to be insulting, but rather, consider: any user could have posted this thread and they would have a point.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not pulling its weight and requires reform.    A case in point would be your own church, which is, in my opinion, failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community resulting in the uncanonical presence of overlapping jurisdictions, because ROCOR (or the MP, I forget which) is there.  This is ethnophyletism; your church should be running those parishes and offering Russian-Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar and offering these where possible in the same building as the Finnish-Gregorian services, in order to avoid the redundant duplication of parishes and dioceses in what is technically an Orthodox land, an area where overlapping jurisdictions are most disagreeable.  I will grant you, this problem might well reaide with the Russians as much as with your church, but tell me: have the bishops of your church tried to work with the Russians to build trust and unite these parishes under the Omophorion of your archbishop?

Are you, from the comfort of your armchair there in the United States, really in a position to say that the Orthodox Church of Finland is ‘failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community’? It is, after all, stated policy of the Finnish Church to be all-inclusive to all native and immigrant Orthodox believers? Are you aware that one of the priests in my diocese, a native speaker of Russian and Estonian, was hired specifically to meet the needs of Russian speakers in the diocese and both of the priests in my parish speak at least enough Russian and English to hear confessions? Do you know that Orthodox Russian immigrants in the north of Sweden come to a Finnish town in my diocese just across the northern border for church services and youth activities since their needs are better catered for here than in their adopted country? Do you know that a retired priest from Russia was invited to serve at the altar and hold gatherings for the Russian speakers in my parish when he was on an extended visit to a family who had been his parishioners in Russia? Are you aware that until the last Russian émigré monk died, Valamo monastery in Finland worked according to both the Julian and the Gregorian calendars in order to accommodate everyone? Criticise the Orthodox Church of Finland if you want, but base your criticisms on fact rather than fancy. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 05:00:09 PM by FinnJames »

Offline William T

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o


Bravo!

Offline Elisha

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wgw for Ecumentical Patriarch!    :police: :angel:

Offline Porter ODoran

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

Imagine the homilies
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Offline biro

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

Amin.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

Imagine the homilies


Unto ages of ages
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Sincere disagreement with ideas and policies of certain bishops is met with criticism, ridicule, and feverish declarations of loyalty by some, but to make fun of wgw, those same people don't mind going full-blown ISIS on all bishops everywhere.  Interesting.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Sincere disagreement with ideas and policies of certain bishops is met with criticism, ridicule, and feverish declarations of loyalty by some, but to make fun of wgw, those same people don't mind going full-blown ISIS on all bishops everywhere.  Interesting.

Is it interesting? I'm glad to be interesting.

Personally, I found that putting WGW's original post's poorly-concealed grandiosity into full Technicolor felt anticlimactic. But it was the least I could do.

WGW's posts aside, any poster here who thinks an ancient see is something to be casually disposed of needs to think about what it means to be pious Orthodox.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daniel2:47

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthodoxy instead of Constantinople?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:03:09 PM by Daniel2:47 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daniel2:47

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

Offline Porter ODoran

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

And it might be irrelevant to my point. Moscow is not going to attain to some new worldwide precedence for any reason, but certainly not as long as she stubbornly remains an island.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item? *I see instead that you've included novel terminologies.

*edited
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:56:25 PM by mcarmichael »
Please pardon my behavior.

Offline Minnesotan

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item?

Retain the status quo is the first listed option; is that what you're referring to? Or are you suggesting that our Nothing should be the new EP?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:48:47 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

And it might be irrelevant to my point. Moscow is not going to attain to some new worldwide precedence for any reason, but certainly not as long as she stubbornly remains an island.

Evidently your definition of island is vastly different than standard.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item?

Retain the status quo is the first listed option; is that what you're referring to? Or are you suggesting that our Nothing should be the new EP?

;D
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

And it might be irrelevant to my point. Moscow is not going to attain to some new worldwide precedence for any reason, but certainly not as long as she stubbornly remains an island.

Evidently your definition of island is vastly different than standard.

If you know of universal councils the MP has tried (I won't say succeeded) to host, or substantial ways she has reached out in brotherhood to the ancient sees -- in these modern times, with the fall of the Ottomans and the Bolsheviks, when renewed brotherhood is so needed -- then now would be the time to bring those forward.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Asteriktos

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

So more like an Ecclesiastical Archipelago then...   :angel:

Offline DeniseDenise

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

So more like an Ecclesiastical Archipelago then...   :angel:

Exactly.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

You are missing the point. The latest council is a diversion. Some fanciful new honor for Moscow can't be based on internetters reactions to the latest council.

And you are ignoring my questions that would elucidate the point. But that is because you have no good answer to make to them. As Hegel said, it is facile to bring the negative; it takes real creative will to bring the positive. Kibbitzers don't make leaders.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item?

Retain the status quo is the first listed option; is that what you're referring to? Or are you suggesting that our Nothing should be the new EP?

;D

It should say "Do nothing." I've decided.

(In order to maintain the inherent bias, of course.)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 08:44:25 PM by mcarmichael »
Please pardon my behavior.

Offline DeniseDenise

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No.

You are over reaching what I was speaking of.

You said that Moscow was stubbornly an 'island'

I pointed out that there are other Churches with them. Hardly an island.



That simple enough, or do you need bigger words so you can understand. 

Sometimes a person is making a simple point. About one thing said.


Not conflating it with the entirety of history. 

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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You are over reaching what I was speaking of.

Since what you were "speaking of" was a counter-argument of my argument, then it is not "over reaching" to point out that you failed actually to address my argument.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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There was a time I would have said keep the status quo. However, this business of primus sine paribus that occurs under the direct jurisdiction of the EP without so much of even a slight condemnation is deeply concerning. Then the EP has repeatedly insisted that the council is binding even upon those who don't attend, which is not how any council has ever worked. No no no! Councils are only ever binding if that church agrees to them. That's how councils have always worked. If the EP is re-merged with what was forcibly removed from it due to 19th century politics, I think it would resolve the problem by diluting the heresy.

Whatever the case, history will eventually force the EP to either move or end. Turkey is going to hell in a hand basket, and it only has about 4,000 aging Orthodox Christians along with no serious method of reproducing the necessary bishops. Merging is the best way to maintain and continue the honorable legacy of the patriarchate.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:07:45 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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You are over reaching what I was speaking of.

Since what you were "speaking of" was a counter-argument of my argument, then it is not "over reaching" to point out that you failed actually to address my argument.

Dude. Not going to debate how to debate just because you have a need for constant argument


My point about the island thing was just one point. Get over it
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Funny, here (Raleigh, NC) the Greek parish is getting ready to build a new church because theirs is too small.

Not that my opinion really counts, but I think Moscow is long overdue to be declared 3rd Rome with equal priviledges as Constantinople (and in theory Rome if a Pope became Orthodox), just as New Rome was declared equal with Old Rome. And apparently Pope Leo the Great did not accept that canon of Chalcedon, but tough cookies, the Church did. If the EP objected, same deal.

Or they could go "nuclear" and have a council to declare EP Bartholomew a neo-papist heretic on those grounds of "primus sine paribus" and "my councils under my rules are binding period". He wouldn't be the first heretic for a Patriarch of Constantinople...

Didn't see those options on the poll :-P
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Offline wgw

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If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.

Mine is a cathedral parish, so I think you would be at least grudgingly satisfied with the variety of services during the week, the wealth of icons, the vestments and the choir. Since the diocese was carved out of another when another bishop was added to the Finnish Church hierarchy, the building was originally intended as a ‘mere’ church/temple so would probably disappoint. I know that you personally, wgw, would not approve of the low iconostasis, but the congregation here is happy with it. And some have even told me they prefer it to the floor-to-ceiling ‘wall of icons’ it replaced.


Of what you have described, the only thing that saddens me is the prospect that your cathedral church  destroyed an historic iconostasis in order to make an empty theological gesture.

Beyond that, why would I possibly object to the Cathedral being in an elevated parish temple?  Many of the great cathedral churches of the world grew out of humble parish churches, where there are still a number of rich cathedrals of extreme importance which are in very humble locations, especially in the middle East.  I do not believe my church has a single grand cathedral anywhere; our patriarchal cathedral is a bland, ugly seminary building in suburban Damascus that could pass for the Holiday Inn Express, on the outside, which is good, because in the present situation in those lands one does not want to advertise ones presence externally; we probably would have been hit by a rocket attack.  The inside however is splendid, and does have a full height wooden Coptic-style iconostasis from the videos Ive seen of Seminarians singing the Hours of the Shimo, although I was not able to get a good look at the icons.

For that matter, St. George's Cathedral in Stamboul is a lovely church, its dimunitive size compared to Hagia Sophia which the Turks stole from us is a testament to the indefatigability of Orthodoxy, and if we ever get Constantinople back, I should like to see St. George's dismantled and reconstructed on the grounds of the Great Church as a chapel.

Quote

Note by the way, I believe you inadvertantly employed an argumentum ad hominem, not as a flame or as anything intended to be insulting, but rather, consider: any user could have posted this thread and they would have a point.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not pulling its weight and requires reform.    A case in point would be your own church, which is, in my opinion, failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community resulting in the uncanonical presence of overlapping jurisdictions, because ROCOR (or the MP, I forget which) is there.  This is ethnophyletism; your church should be running those parishes and offering Russian-Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar and offering these where possible in the same building as the Finnish-Gregorian services, in order to avoid the redundant duplication of parishes and dioceses in what is technically an Orthodox land, an area where overlapping jurisdictions are most disagreeable.  I will grant you, this problem might well reaide with the Russians as much as with your church, but tell me: have the bishops of your church tried to work with the Russians to build trust and unite these parishes under the Omophorion of your archbishop?

Are you, from the comfort of your armchair there in the United States, really in a position to say that the Orthodox Church of Finland is ‘failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community’? It is, after all, stated policy of the Finnish Church to be all-inclusive to all native and immigrant Orthodox believers? Are you aware that one of the priests in my diocese, a native speaker of Russian and Estonian, was hired specifically to meet the needs of Russian speakers in the diocese and both of the priests in my parish speak at least enough Russian and English to hear confessions? Do you know that Orthodox Russian immigrants in the north of Sweden come to a Finnish town in my diocese just across the northern border for church services and youth activities since their needs are better catered for here than in their adopted country? Do you know that a retired priest from Russia was invited to serve at the altar and hold gatherings for the Russian speakers in my parish when he was on an extended visit to a family who had been his parishioners in Russia? Are you aware that until the last Russian émigré monk died, Valamo monastery in Finland worked according to both the Julian and the Gregorian calendars in order to accommodate everyone? Criticise the Orthodox Church of Finland if you want, but base your criticisms on fact rather than fancy.

The fact is, you have urban parishes which are in the awkward situation of "competing" with ROCOR, and I believe this could be forestalled if all Finnish churches in areas with substantial Russian areas added Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar.  For that matter, why not use the Julian Calendar for all services?  In this manner Finnish Orthodox could celebrate Pascha together with their Russian and most of their Estonian neighbours, which I think is more important than celebrating it together with the Lutherans.  That said, I will say, I prefer the use of the Gregorian to the Revised Julian Calendar to the liturgical breakage like the intermittent absence of the Apostle's Fast, and my own church is unique among OO jurisdictions in the unfortunate respect of using the RJC, so in that area, you chaps do a better job than us.

But compare your church even with the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the United States: this is a flawed institution, consisting of a dying Greek archdiocese, a stable and very likeable Ukrainian jurisdiction, and a thriving Carpatho-Rusyn church which has the highest percentage of Sunday liturgy attendance by far of any Orthodox church in the US, one of the highest in the world, ACROD, and each of these is at least tailored to meet the needs of its respective demographics.  The problems with much of GoArch are severe and well known, but they are ameliorated by the monasteries of Elder Ephraim.  To his credit, His All Holiness has blessed all of these things, which is why my criticism is not directed at him personally and why I believe the painful process of EP reform should not occur until his repose, which hopefully will not happen for many years.

The specific examples you give do not satisfactorily answer my concerns about the pastoral care of Russians, because:

1. They are confined to rural areas and do not address those regions of the country where the Russians have formed their own parishes.
2. It is not providing proper pastoral care to the Russians, or to any Byzantine Rite Christians other than yourselves, a few Estonian Orthodox, and the Eastern Catholics (with I believe some exceptions), to not at least offer services on the RJC; if your church cared about providing full pastoral care to Russians "system-wide" you would offer comprehensive Julian Calendar services alongside the Gregorian Calendar services.
3. Why do you suppose there are no remaining Russian emigres at Valamo?

Church of Finland reform must be a part of EP reform, because I believe it is in the best interests of Orthodoxy that Finland be developed into an autocephalous church perhaps encompassing all of Scandinavia, and Finland I do not believe falls under the jurisdiction of "the lands of the Barbarians" but rather is technically for historical reasons the outer boundary of the Russian church, which became detached from it for obvious political reasons.  However, I think it is vital that the Church of Finland operate in a manner congruous with that of the neighbouring Orthodox churches, not counting the Church of Estonia, which I believe is properly an autonomous part of the Church of Russia, which has been intruded upon needlessly.

So another part of EP reform must address Estonia; the Estonian church must be reunited; I believe the spiritual practices of the Russian church which are more traditional should be reimplemented even ar the cost of some parishioners, and this reunited church might form the nucleus of an autocephalous Orthodox Metropolis of the Baltic States and Kaliningrad, just as a reformed Finnish church might form the nucleusn of an Orthodox Metropolis of Scandinavia.
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Funny, here (Raleigh, NC) the Greek parish is getting ready to build a new church because theirs is too small.

Not that my opinion really counts, but I think Moscow is long overdue to be declared 3rd Rome with equal priviledges as Constantinople (and in theory Rome if a Pope became Orthodox), just as New Rome was declared equal with Old Rome. And apparently Pope Leo the Great did not accept that canon of Chalcedon, but tough cookies, the Church did. If the EP objected, same deal.

Or they could go "nuclear" and have a council to declare EP Bartholomew a neo-papist heretic on those grounds of "primus sine paribus" and "my councils under my rules are binding period". He wouldn't be the first heretic for a Patriarch of Constantinople...

Didn't see those options on the poll :-P

I think we see something go "nuclear" here, but it's your post's mind-blowing descent from utter inability to fathom history and tradition to utterly inexcusable slander of a holy hierarch.
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Funny, here (Raleigh, NC) the Greek parish is getting ready to build a new church because theirs is too small.

Not that my opinion really counts, but I think Moscow is long overdue to be declared 3rd Rome with equal priviledges as Constantinople (and in theory Rome if a Pope became Orthodox), just as New Rome was declared equal with Old Rome. And apparently Pope Leo the Great did not accept that canon of Chalcedon, but tough cookies, the Church did. If the EP objected, same deal.

Or they could go "nuclear" and have a council to declare EP Bartholomew a neo-papist heretic on those grounds of "primus sine paribus" and "my councils under my rules are binding period". He wouldn't be the first heretic for a Patriarch of Constantinople...

Didn't see those options on the poll :-P

Some GoArch parishes are happily doing well.  The GoArch parish where I used to live was likewise moving into a larger church, but based on the age of the congregation I believe this was due to demographic shifts, namely, increasing numbers of older, wealthy, Greek Americans moving to parts of Southern California to retire.   The sure sign of a healthy parish is lots of children, and they did not have that (in contrast to the massively overcrowded Coptic parish mearby, where lap sitting had become the rule).  This is partially a social problem also affecting Greece and other Orthodox lands, and it is something that I believe the EP has again failed to tackle: population control due to birth control.

I think the Orthodox Church should strongly push for marriage or monasticism, and ban birth control so as to counter these dangerous demographic trends, but I don't see the EP as an institution caring as much about this as they should; it is every bit as important as the environmental agenda they have correctly stressed.

Btw, I presume you noticed the "Other - Please Specify" option? 

~

I disagree with you that His All Holiness is a heretic and I do not think we should even consider that.  Furthermore, I also do not believe there has been any heresy.  The primus sine paribus argument, which was retracted, was an ecclesiological error, and the council was mishandled, resulting in a lacklustre argument.

Lastly one might observe the Council of Ephesus, in which the Pope of Alexandria deposed the Patriarch of Conatantinople (who was not yet styled Ecumenical), was very much conducted by Pope St. Cyril the Great on a "My Way or the Highway" basis, to the extent that it is possible he may have unwittingly enabled the Nestorian schism (depending on how one interprets the actions of Patriarch John of Antioch).  I also believe that the outcome of all of the ecumenical councils with the possible exception of Nicea was apparent in advance, as well as the outcome of all the latrocinia, such as the Arian Councils and the Iconoclast Councils.  These were by and large councils of like minded bishops and the Church as a whole essentially selected which councils it would accept as authoritative and which ones it would reject (or, in the case of Chalcedon, failed to, resulting in the long and unpleasant EO-OO schism).

Now, declaring Moscow "Third Rome" is not something I support, because I want the feuding between Moscow and Constantinople to end, but I will say, the Moscow Patriarchate is more important simply by virtue of being by far the largest Orthodox jurisdiction with the greatest responsibilities for the cure of souls, even more so when one includes the autonomous churches under the MP's Omophorion, like ROCOR or the Church of Japan; the Moscow Patriarchate is not purely Russian, just as Conatantinople is not purely Greek, and this is right and proper.  It simply happens that the MP is much, much larger than the EP and responsible for the spiritual life of many more Orthodox.

I am not convinced the MP would do a better job than the EP as primus inter pares, although I did list this as an option, which might also apply to your argument in part.  For that matter, I believe at present the Jerusalem Patriarchate would probably do a worse job than either Moscow or Constantinople.   Canonically, Alexandria is next in the line of succession, and Alexandria is a healthy church; even as the Alexandrian Greek community dwindles, the Thirteenth Apostle has been very actively evangelizing throughout Africa and also providing pastoral care to the Orthodox diaspora in South Africa. 

If the EP were to be demoted, which I think it will deserve if it does not reform, my own preference would probably be for Alexandria based purely on the idea of going by the ancient order of primacy, but if I could pick any patriarchate, it would be Antioch, which is the most persecuted.  Persecution creates spiritual health, but Antioch I believe was particularly healthy long before the current persecution began.
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There was a time I would have said keep the status quo. However, this business of primus sine paribus that occurs under the direct jurisdiction of the EP without so much of even a slight condemnation is deeply concerning. Then the EP has repeatedly insisted that the council is binding even upon those who don't attend, which is not how any council has ever worked. No no no! Councils are only ever binding if that church agrees to them. That's how councils have always worked. If the EP is re-merged with what was forcibly removed from it due to 19th century politics, I think it would resolve the problem by diluting the heresy.

Whatever the case, history will eventually force the EP to either move or end. Turkey is going to hell in a hand basket, and it only has about 4,000 aging Orthodox Christians along with no serious method of reproducing the necessary bishops. Merging is the best way to maintain and continue the honorable legacy of the patriarchate.

2,000, actually, according to the figures posted by FrGiryus.
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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Cyprus has been autocephalous, afaik, for as long as there has been autocephaly; it never became associated with the ancient archbishoprics of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, or the East (Edessa or Seleucia-Cstesiphon), and when Jerusalem was rebuilt and Constantinople became Secundus inter Pares after Rome, as New Rome, it retained its dignity, and this was upheld IIRC in one of the ecumenical councils. 

On the other hand, after the Church of Constantinople was organized, Greece and Asia Minor up until a certain ecclesiastical border with Antioch became its jurisdiction, and these I would argue are organically and logically a part of what the Church of Conatantinople would look like, if Asia Minor and Greece were still united and still Christian, or if Turkey were to be evangelized and join with Greece in a new political union in the future.

I feel that at present, the Church of Greece is a healthier and more robuat juriadiction than Conatantinople, and Constantinople must be fixed before it can be expanded. 

Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.

Ishikis also believe the Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, etc., were in fact Alevis under different names. So in some respects, it's almost Trail of Blood-ish.

Indeed, and this shows a lack of commitment to Islam among the Alevis; if 11% of them went for that, perhaps another 11% could be drawn into Orthodoxy, especially if we allowed them to retain some aesthetic aspects of their current rituals and their Alevi identity.  Note also the Bektasi monasteries; there is no bright line between Bektasism and Alevism and these monasteries were perhaps Gnostic or other heretical monasteries which converted to Islam in order to survive, and they historically exercised a great spiritual influence over the Alevis and Alawis.  In Macedonia, I think, there is a Bektasi monastery that routinely venerates and has protected from vandalism an Orthodox shrine of some sort; I vaguely recall reading something along these lines.  Perhaps, so we do not get too far off topic here, we should post a thread on how we might evangelize the Turks?
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The Church has already been thru all this, while you folks were evidently either sleeping or in diapers. The solutions included granting autonomy to Greece and arranging for grants of Turkish citizenship to bishops around the world (my Metropolitan is one).

It's curious to see the abysmal ignorance on display in posts here, something quite else to see the ignorance manifesting with impious glee at an ancient see's supposed fate -- that is completely unnecessary.
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There was a time I would have said keep the status quo. However, this business of primus sine paribus that occurs under the direct jurisdiction of the EP without so much of even a slight condemnation is deeply concerning. Then the EP has repeatedly insisted that the council is binding even upon those who don't attend, which is not how any council has ever worked. No no no! Councils are only ever binding if that church agrees to them. That's how councils have always worked. If the EP is re-merged with what was forcibly removed from it due to 19th century politics, I think it would resolve the problem by diluting the heresy.

Whatever the case, history will eventually force the EP to either move or end. Turkey is going to hell in a hand basket, and it only has about 4,000 aging Orthodox Christians along with no serious method of reproducing the necessary bishops. Merging is the best way to maintain and continue the honorable legacy of the patriarchate.

2,000, actually, according to the figures posted by FrGiryus.

So we're really just going to sit here and pretend there are no land masses beyond Asia Minor?
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I came up with an alternate list, which has been lost, however I just thought of another clever line item for you: "None of your business."

Hehe. Do you get it, mate? :)

PS. I'm not a convert (yet!) My biased opinion may be off.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 01:19:13 AM by mcarmichael »
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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

If anyone did this, they would destroy all the people outside of my own family I love the most, and I would die before accepting such a post, for it was Pope St. Gregory Dialogos who claimed (ironically, for the record, in response to the Ecumenical Patriarch taking on the title "Ecumenical"), that any bishop who claimed universal jurisdiction was the precursor to the anti-Christ.

Someday I expect St. Gregory will be proven right in nis interpretation of the apocalypse, and some demonic personage will attempt to claim this, causing a brief disturbance before the Parousia, but this will not entail a Dispensationalist-Chiliast millenial kingdom with animal sacrifices et cetera.

Note by the way, if anyone thinks I want to be a bishop or thinks that I am deluded into believing think I could do a better job than even the worst performing "Orthodox" bishop, including all vagantes, pretend-dressup bishops and other non-canonical figures, they are mistaken.   I simply have opinions, and am curious to know the opinions of others, and some of these are controversial.

I would lament to note however that right now, I think it would be fair to say the majority of Orthodox churches outside of the Ecumenical Patriarchate have had problems dealing with the EP in one form or another in recent years, and not for the right reasons.  If the Patriarchate was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, led by an extremely pious Athonite monk, calling the rest of Orthodoxy to repentance, and spurning the company of politicians and celebrities and engaging in extreme ascetic observances and delivering homilies that would express the ancient faith so forcefully that he would probably be banned from entering Sweden or the UK, wearing a ragged and patched cassock while not celebrating the liturgy, and other Orthodox churches found him to be a headache, I would probably support him.

Part of the reason for this thread is I suspect we could find someone like St. John the Baptist, St. John Chrysostom, St. Mark of Ephesus or St. Seraphim of Sarov hiding in the woods of Mount Athos, but I fear that with the present arrangements they would have no chance of receiving Turkish citizenship or being accepted into the current political system of the EP in its present condition.

So the Ecumenical Patriarchate probably has the most qualified bishops imaginable on the Holy Mountain, but has no way of availing itself of their services.

Perhaps many hears from now after the dreadfully sad day when His All Holiness Bartholomew reposes in the Lord, the pious men of Thessalonika should march onto Mount Athos, find one of the "Naked Hermits" we were discussing, throw a zostikon and exorason and other garments on him and superglue a crosier to his hand, and drag him into their city and say "Here is His All Holiness, the new Ecumenical Patriarchate."

Funny, here (Raleigh, NC) the Greek parish is getting ready to build a new church because theirs is too small.

Not that my opinion really counts, but I think Moscow is long overdue to be declared 3rd Rome with equal priviledges as Constantinople (and in theory Rome if a Pope became Orthodox), just as New Rome was declared equal with Old Rome. And apparently Pope Leo the Great did not accept that canon of Chalcedon, but tough cookies, the Church did. If the EP objected, same deal.

Or they could go "nuclear" and have a council to declare EP Bartholomew a neo-papist heretic on those grounds of "primus sine paribus" and "my councils under my rules are binding period". He wouldn't be the first heretic for a Patriarch of Constantinople...

Didn't see those options on the poll :-P

I think we see something go "nuclear" here, but it's your post's mind-blowing descent from utter inability to fathom history and tradition to utterly inexcusable slander of a holy hierarch.

I do very much agree that His All Holiness is a holy hierarch, he is not the subject of my criticisms, and I agree with you he has done nothing to deserve being lanelled a heretic.  As stated above, I do not even blame him personally for the problems that are occurring; I think the problem is with what one might call the Phanariot political-ecclesiastical establishment and certain figures who surround the Edumenical Patriarch, advise him and attend to his affairs to an increasing degree as he ages. 

This is evinced I believe by the fact that twenty years ago, these sorts of problems were not routinely occurring in Constantinople. 

But of the problems that hve occurred, these are I think political and pastoral in nature and do not begin to approach heresy, although as has been pointed out the EP has published much material which is ecclesiologically erroneous. 
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Why does WGW write such long posts? Is he working on his thesis or something?

And who decided to ask him what the church is going to "do" with entire patriarchates?

 >:(
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Why does WGW write such long posts? Is he working on his thesis or something?

And who decided to ask him what the church is going to "do" with entire patriarchates?

 >:(

Capybaras enjoy reading.  :)

This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

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The fact is, you have urban parishes which are in the awkward situation of "competing" with ROCOR, and I believe this could be forestalled if all Finnish churches in areas with substantial Russian areas added Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar.  For that matter, why not use the Julian Calendar for all services?  In this manner Finnish Orthodox could celebrate Pascha together with their Russian and most of their Estonian neighbours, which I think is more important than celebrating it together with the Lutherans.  That said, I will say, I prefer the use of the Gregorian to the Revised Julian Calendar to the liturgical breakage like the intermittent absence of the Apostle's Fast, and my own church is unique among OO jurisdictions in the unfortunate respect of using the RJC, so in that area, you chaps do a better job than us.

But compare your church even with the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the United States: this is a flawed institution, consisting of a dying Greek archdiocese, a stable and very likeable Ukrainian jurisdiction, and a thriving Carpatho-Rusyn church which has the highest percentage of Sunday liturgy attendance by far of any Orthodox church in the US, one of the highest in the world, ACROD, and each of these is at least tailored to meet the needs of its respective demographics.  The problems with much of GoArch are severe and well known, but they are ameliorated by the monasteries of Elder Ephraim.  To his credit, His All Holiness has blessed all of these things, which is why my criticism is not directed at him personally and why I believe the painful process of EP reform should not occur until his repose, which hopefully will not happen for many years.

The specific examples you give do not satisfactorily answer my concerns about the pastoral care of Russians, because:

1. They are confined to rural areas and do not address those regions of the country where the Russians have formed their own parishes.
2. It is not providing proper pastoral care to the Russians, or to any Byzantine Rite Christians other than yourselves, a few Estonian Orthodox, and the Eastern Catholics (with I believe some exceptions), to not at least offer services on the RJC; if your church cared about providing full pastoral care to Russians "system-wide" you would offer comprehensive Julian Calendar services alongside the Gregorian Calendar services.
3. Why do you suppose there are no remaining Russian emigres at Valamo?

Church of Finland reform must be a part of EP reform, because I believe it is in the best interests of Orthodoxy that Finland be developed into an autocephalous church perhaps encompassing all of Scandinavia, and Finland I do not believe falls under the jurisdiction of "the lands of the Barbarians" but rather is technically for historical reasons the outer boundary of the Russian church, which became detached from it for obvious political reasons.  However, I think it is vital that the Church of Finland operate in a manner congruous with that of the neighbouring Orthodox churches, not counting the Church of Estonia, which I believe is properly an autonomous part of the Church of Russia, which has been intruded upon needlessly.

So another part of EP reform must address Estonia; the Estonian church must be reunited; I believe the spiritual practices of the Russian church which are more traditional should be reimplemented even ar the cost of some parishioners, and this reunited church might form the nucleus of an autocephalous Orthodox Metropolis of the Baltic States and Kaliningrad, just as a reformed Finnish church might form the nucleusn of an Orthodox Metropolis of Scandinavia.

I can only say that the paragraphs quoted above demonstrate an astonishing amount of certainty based on an astounding lack of knowledge of what goes on 'at ground level' in the life of the Church in Finland, and now Scandinavia and the Baltic States as well. Thought experiments are all well and good, but let's not confuse them with reality.

Offline wgw

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The fact is, you have urban parishes which are in the awkward situation of "competing" with ROCOR, and I believe this could be forestalled if all Finnish churches in areas with substantial Russian areas added Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar.  For that matter, why not use the Julian Calendar for all services?  In this manner Finnish Orthodox could celebrate Pascha together with their Russian and most of their Estonian neighbours, which I think is more important than celebrating it together with the Lutherans.  That said, I will say, I prefer the use of the Gregorian to the Revised Julian Calendar to the liturgical breakage like the intermittent absence of the Apostle's Fast, and my own church is unique among OO jurisdictions in the unfortunate respect of using the RJC, so in that area, you chaps do a better job than us.

But compare your church even with the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the United States: this is a flawed institution, consisting of a dying Greek archdiocese, a stable and very likeable Ukrainian jurisdiction, and a thriving Carpatho-Rusyn church which has the highest percentage of Sunday liturgy attendance by far of any Orthodox church in the US, one of the highest in the world, ACROD, and each of these is at least tailored to meet the needs of its respective demographics.  The problems with much of GoArch are severe and well known, but they are ameliorated by the monasteries of Elder Ephraim.  To his credit, His All Holiness has blessed all of these things, which is why my criticism is not directed at him personally and why I believe the painful process of EP reform should not occur until his repose, which hopefully will not happen for many years.

The specific examples you give do not satisfactorily answer my concerns about the pastoral care of Russians, because:

1. They are confined to rural areas and do not address those regions of the country where the Russians have formed their own parishes.
2. It is not providing proper pastoral care to the Russians, or to any Byzantine Rite Christians other than yourselves, a few Estonian Orthodox, and the Eastern Catholics (with I believe some exceptions), to not at least offer services on the RJC; if your church cared about providing full pastoral care to Russians "system-wide" you would offer comprehensive Julian Calendar services alongside the Gregorian Calendar services.
3. Why do you suppose there are no remaining Russian emigres at Valamo?

Church of Finland reform must be a part of EP reform, because I believe it is in the best interests of Orthodoxy that Finland be developed into an autocephalous church perhaps encompassing all of Scandinavia, and Finland I do not believe falls under the jurisdiction of "the lands of the Barbarians" but rather is technically for historical reasons the outer boundary of the Russian church, which became detached from it for obvious political reasons.  However, I think it is vital that the Church of Finland operate in a manner congruous with that of the neighbouring Orthodox churches, not counting the Church of Estonia, which I believe is properly an autonomous part of the Church of Russia, which has been intruded upon needlessly.

So another part of EP reform must address Estonia; the Estonian church must be reunited; I believe the spiritual practices of the Russian church which are more traditional should be reimplemented even ar the cost of some parishioners, and this reunited church might form the nucleus of an autocephalous Orthodox Metropolis of the Baltic States and Kaliningrad, just as a reformed Finnish church might form the nucleusn of an Orthodox Metropolis of Scandinavia.

I can only say that the paragraphs quoted above demonstrate an astonishing amount of certainty based on an astounding lack of knowledge of what goes on 'at ground level' in the life of the Church in Finland, and now Scandinavia and the Baltic States as well. Thought experiments are all well and good, but let's not confuse them with reality.

Let us instead answer the question: why do you suppose there are no longer any Russian emigres in Valamo?   And why are Russian Orthodox parishes proliferating? 
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Offline Rohzek

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There was a time I would have said keep the status quo. However, this business of primus sine paribus that occurs under the direct jurisdiction of the EP without so much of even a slight condemnation is deeply concerning. Then the EP has repeatedly insisted that the council is binding even upon those who don't attend, which is not how any council has ever worked. No no no! Councils are only ever binding if that church agrees to them. That's how councils have always worked. If the EP is re-merged with what was forcibly removed from it due to 19th century politics, I think it would resolve the problem by diluting the heresy.

Whatever the case, history will eventually force the EP to either move or end. Turkey is going to hell in a hand basket, and it only has about 4,000 aging Orthodox Christians along with no serious method of reproducing the necessary bishops. Merging is the best way to maintain and continue the honorable legacy of the patriarchate.

2,000, actually, according to the figures posted by FrGiryus.

So we're really just going to sit here and pretend there are no land masses beyond Asia Minor?

The EP can't hold onto the diaspora forever. After all, it is officially committed to resolving the awkward issue of there being more than one bishop per city.

The Church has already been thru all this, while you folks were evidently either sleeping or in diapers. The solutions included granting autonomy to Greece and arranging for grants of Turkish citizenship to bishops around the world (my Metropolitan is one).

It's curious to see the abysmal ignorance on display in posts here, something quite else to see the ignorance manifesting with impious glee at an ancient see's supposed fate -- that is completely unnecessary.

Porter you're only 40-something, so stop pretending to be old and wise. Nobody likes posers.

And arranging grants of citizenship is no way to continue a church. Turkey is in total upheaval and isn't secular at all anymore. It isn't exactly a reliable place to be anymore. And now the numbers have dwindled to a mere 2,000 (down from about 4,000,000 at the early 20th century) within Turkey. It's time for the EP to move on to another location sometime in the near future. Being concerned about these matters as well as the primus sine paribus is not impious.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 03:09:14 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Cyprus has been autocephalous, afaik, for as long as there has been autocephaly; it never became associated with the ancient archbishoprics of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, or the East (Edessa or Seleucia-Cstesiphon), and when Jerusalem was rebuilt and Constantinople became Secundus inter Pares after Rome, as New Rome, it retained its dignity, and this was upheld IIRC in one of the ecumenical councils. 

On the other hand, after the Church of Constantinople was organized, Greece and Asia Minor up until a certain ecclesiastical border with Antioch became its jurisdiction, and these I would argue are organically and logically a part of what the Church of Conatantinople would look like, if Asia Minor and Greece were still united and still Christian, or if Turkey were to be evangelized and join with Greece in a new political union in the future.

I feel that at present, the Church of Greece is a healthier and more robuat juriadiction than Conatantinople, and Constantinople must be fixed before it can be expanded. 

Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.

Ishikis also believe the Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, etc., were in fact Alevis under different names. So in some respects, it's almost Trail of Blood-ish.

Indeed, and this shows a lack of commitment to Islam among the Alevis; if 11% of them went for that, perhaps another 11% could be drawn into Orthodoxy, especially if we allowed them to retain some aesthetic aspects of their current rituals and their Alevi identity.  Note also the Bektasi monasteries; there is no bright line between Bektasism and Alevism and these monasteries were perhaps Gnostic or other heretical monasteries which converted to Islam in order to survive, and they historically exercised a great spiritual influence over the Alevis and Alawis.  In Macedonia, I think, there is a Bektasi monastery that routinely venerates and has protected from vandalism an Orthodox shrine of some sort; I vaguely recall reading something along these lines. Perhaps, so we do not get too far off topic here, we should post a thread on how we might evangelize the Turks?

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Offline Porter ODoran

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The fact is, you have urban parishes which are in the awkward situation of "competing" with ROCOR, and I believe this could be forestalled if all Finnish churches in areas with substantial Russian areas added Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar.  For that matter, why not use the Julian Calendar for all services?  In this manner Finnish Orthodox could celebrate Pascha together with their Russian and most of their Estonian neighbours, which I think is more important than celebrating it together with the Lutherans.  That said, I will say, I prefer the use of the Gregorian to the Revised Julian Calendar to the liturgical breakage like the intermittent absence of the Apostle's Fast, and my own church is unique among OO jurisdictions in the unfortunate respect of using the RJC, so in that area, you chaps do a better job than us.

But compare your church even with the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the United States: this is a flawed institution, consisting of a dying Greek archdiocese, a stable and very likeable Ukrainian jurisdiction, and a thriving Carpatho-Rusyn church which has the highest percentage of Sunday liturgy attendance by far of any Orthodox church in the US, one of the highest in the world, ACROD, and each of these is at least tailored to meet the needs of its respective demographics.  The problems with much of GoArch are severe and well known, but they are ameliorated by the monasteries of Elder Ephraim.  To his credit, His All Holiness has blessed all of these things, which is why my criticism is not directed at him personally and why I believe the painful process of EP reform should not occur until his repose, which hopefully will not happen for many years.

The specific examples you give do not satisfactorily answer my concerns about the pastoral care of Russians, because:

1. They are confined to rural areas and do not address those regions of the country where the Russians have formed their own parishes.
2. It is not providing proper pastoral care to the Russians, or to any Byzantine Rite Christians other than yourselves, a few Estonian Orthodox, and the Eastern Catholics (with I believe some exceptions), to not at least offer services on the RJC; if your church cared about providing full pastoral care to Russians "system-wide" you would offer comprehensive Julian Calendar services alongside the Gregorian Calendar services.
3. Why do you suppose there are no remaining Russian emigres at Valamo?

Church of Finland reform must be a part of EP reform, because I believe it is in the best interests of Orthodoxy that Finland be developed into an autocephalous church perhaps encompassing all of Scandinavia, and Finland I do not believe falls under the jurisdiction of "the lands of the Barbarians" but rather is technically for historical reasons the outer boundary of the Russian church, which became detached from it for obvious political reasons.  However, I think it is vital that the Church of Finland operate in a manner congruous with that of the neighbouring Orthodox churches, not counting the Church of Estonia, which I believe is properly an autonomous part of the Church of Russia, which has been intruded upon needlessly.

So another part of EP reform must address Estonia; the Estonian church must be reunited; I believe the spiritual practices of the Russian church which are more traditional should be reimplemented even ar the cost of some parishioners, and this reunited church might form the nucleus of an autocephalous Orthodox Metropolis of the Baltic States and Kaliningrad, just as a reformed Finnish church might form the nucleusn of an Orthodox Metropolis of Scandinavia.

I can only say that the paragraphs quoted above demonstrate an astonishing amount of certainty based on an astounding lack of knowledge of what goes on 'at ground level' in the life of the Church in Finland, and now Scandinavia and the Baltic States as well. Thought experiments are all well and good, but let's not confuse them with reality.

Let us instead answer the question: why do you suppose there are no longer any Russian emigres in Valamo?   And why are Russian Orthodox parishes proliferating?

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Offline FinnJames

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Let us instead answer the question: why do you suppose there are no longer any Russian emigres in Valamo?

Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that the last surviving monk who fled from Valaam Monastery on Lake Ladoga to Finland during the Second World War died at Valamo several years ago? If hundreds, even dozens, of Finns are flocking to the monasteries of Russia and taking monastic vows in order to celebrate services in Church Slavonic according to the Julian calendar, please provide evidence of it.

And why are Russian Orthodox parishes proliferating?

Proliferating (in Finland)? Are they indeed? The recent Russian immigrants in my diocese seem quite content with the services that are being offered them, and no parish under the Moscow Patriarch has been established in my 'rural'--as you style it though the cathedral is located in a city of some 200,000--part of the country.   

Could the massive "problems" you see in Finland have anything to do with the fact that although the Ecumenical Patriarchate recognized the Orthodox Church of Finland as autonomous in 1923 and the Moscow Patriarchate did so in 1957, the Moscow Patriarchate continues to take the splinter group, the Russian Orthodox Church in Finland which formed in 1923 and the majority of whose members are currently Finnish citizens, not Russian immigrants whom you claim to care so much about, under its jurisdiction thus perpetuating a rift which has its origins in geopolitical and linguistic controversy?

I am willing to believe that in your mind your intentions are purely good, wgw, but when you try to impose your own notions of what all Orthodoxy should be like on others whose situations you know precious little about you are merely creating dissension, often where none previously existed. If you want to reform the Orthodox world, start in your own congregation. 

Offline Cavaradossi

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This thread contains some very interesting... delusions about the EP and the recent synod.
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Offline Daniel2:47

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The EP can't hold onto the diaspora forever. After all, it is officially committed to resolving the awkward issue of there being more than one bishop per city.

Exactly. If canonical norms are to be resolved, then these churches will be self-governing and not governed by the EP. And the "diaspora" in time will no longer be called that because again that term has certain assumptions that the people in those churches belong to a dispersed ethnicity who might well at some future time return to their homelands. In reality many of the "diaspora" churches have large groups of second, third or fourth generation immigrants who are assimilated into their surrounding cultures, as well as many converts with no ethnic ties to the "homelands". Of course a name like "non-Orthodox majority countries/territories" is something of a mouthful so the "diaspora" term will still be used until a more precise term can be found.

Offline Dominika

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Why does WGW write such long posts? Is he working on his thesis or something?

And who decided to ask him what the church is going to "do" with entire patriarchates?

 >:(

Capybaras enjoy reading.  :)



<3



Anyway, it's second thread started by wgw, not only with his long posts, but (and what I find more problematic) with at least a few thoughts/topics, that could be separate threads; well, now we have indeed one taken out from this thread, about evangelization of Turks and other Muslims.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Why does WGW write such long posts? Is he working on his thesis or something?

And who decided to ask him what the church is going to "do" with entire patriarchates?

 >:(
I suspect he is either retired or unemployed and suggest he devote some of his time to volunteer work in his community and interact with people.

Offline mike

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2. Independent Cilicia.

Cilicia has always been under the patriarchate of Antioch, not Constantinople. There's still a Turkish-speaking parish in Mersin (which, prior to the aftermath of WWI used to be an entire diocese) under Antioch. They even have a website: http://www.mersinortodoks.com/

I mentioned Cilicia as an example of one of two Churches (apart from Etchmiadzin) that are independent despite being of the same nationality.
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Offline genesisone

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The EP can't hold onto the diaspora forever. After all, it is officially committed to resolving the awkward issue of there being more than one bishop per city.

Exactly. If canonical norms are to be resolved, then these churches will be self-governing and not governed by the EP. And the "diaspora" in time will no longer be called that because again that term has certain assumptions that the people in those churches belong to a dispersed ethnicity who might well at some future time return to their homelands. In reality many of the "diaspora" churches have large groups of second, third or fourth generation immigrants who are assimilated into their surrounding cultures, as well as many converts with no ethnic ties to the "homelands". Of course a name like "non-Orthodox majority countries/territories" is something of a mouthful so the "diaspora" term will still be used until a more precise term can be found.
We might need to work on this definition. If we choose to use it as it stands, the Ecumenical Patriarch himself is "diaspora" as are Orthodox Christians in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. (I know you were just making a point - one with which I fully agree  :)) How about "non-traditionally Orthodox regions"? But still a mouthful, I fear.

Offline Daniel2:47

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The EP can't hold onto the diaspora forever. After all, it is officially committed to resolving the awkward issue of there being more than one bishop per city.

Exactly. If canonical norms are to be resolved, then these churches will be self-governing and not governed by the EP. And the "diaspora" in time will no longer be called that because again that term has certain assumptions that the people in those churches belong to a dispersed ethnicity who might well at some future time return to their homelands. In reality many of the "diaspora" churches have large groups of second, third or fourth generation immigrants who are assimilated into their surrounding cultures, as well as many converts with no ethnic ties to the "homelands". Of course a name like "non-Orthodox majority countries/territories" is something of a mouthful so the "diaspora" term will still be used until a more precise term can be found.
We might need to work on this definition. If we choose to use it as it stands, the Ecumenical Patriarch himself is "diaspora" as are Orthodox Christians in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. (I know you were just making a point - one with which I fully agree  :)) How about "non-traditionally Orthodox regions"? But still a mouthful, I fear.

Good point and one that crossed by mind as I was writing it but I wasn't sure what other term might work which wouldn't sound even more of a mouthful!

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I thought they were called barbarian lands.

Offline Antonis

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The Church has already been thru all this, while you folks were evidently either sleeping or in diapers. The solutions included granting autonomy to Greece and arranging for grants of Turkish citizenship to bishops around the world (my Metropolitan is one).

It's curious to see the abysmal ignorance on display in posts here, something quite else to see the ignorance manifesting with impious glee at an ancient see's supposed fate -- that is completely unnecessary.
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The Church has already been thru all this, while you folks were evidently either sleeping or in diapers. The solutions included granting autonomy to Greece and arranging for grants of Turkish citizenship to bishops around the world (my Metropolitan is one).

It's curious to see the abysmal ignorance on display in posts here, something quite else to see the ignorance manifesting with impious glee at an ancient see's supposed fate -- that is completely unnecessary.
If folks here were sleeping or even in diapers when the Church of Greece acquired its independence, they should add "Methuselah" to their custom titles.

There's at least one person lurking OCNet who was alive and opining at the time.  That's how good we are.   
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I His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch moving somewhere would cause disagreement no matter where he moved.  Who would decide where he moved?

Offline Porter ODoran

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The Church has already been thru all this, while you folks were evidently either sleeping or in diapers. The solutions included granting autonomy to Greece and arranging for grants of Turkish citizenship to bishops around the world (my Metropolitan is one).

It's curious to see the abysmal ignorance on display in posts here, something quite else to see the ignorance manifesting with impious glee at an ancient see's supposed fate -- that is completely unnecessary.
If folks here were sleeping or even in diapers when the Church of Greece acquired its independence, they should add "Methuselah" to their custom titles.

You know what I mean.
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Offline hecma925

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

I didn't vote, because there was no question.  I like Dominka's idea.
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Retain the status quo. We are Orthodox. We don't change things.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

The Greeks have already been through all this. The Patriarchate was actually in Athens for a short time, as I recall, and then there was a plan that was actually signed by bishops and governments to relocate the Patriarchate to Mt. Athos. For that matter, there are a great many places around the world where the Patriarchate would be warmly welcomed. The solution that ultimately emerged was what we have now, and many reasons were given by all involved parties that were satisfactory at the time -- so I am not sure how the internet is suddenly conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks on behalf of all these holy hierarchs, dead and living.
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Offline Dominika

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The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

The Greeks have already been through all this. The Patriarchate was actually in Athens for a short time, as I recall, and then there was a plan that was actually signed by bishops and governments to relocate the Patriarchate to Mt. Athos. For that matter, there are a great many places around the world where the Patriarchate would be warmly welcomed. The solution that ultimately emerged was what we have now, and many reasons were given by all involved parties that were satisfactory at the time -- so I am not sure how the internet is suddenly conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks on behalf of all these holy hierarchs, dead and living.

I don't know the story, but... It wouldn't be "conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks", as:
1. The name still would be Constantinople (not Istambul, Athens, Karea or anything like this)
2. there would be Orthodox parishes in Constantinople and in other areas of Turkey
3. The patriarch would be (at least from time to time) the visitor to Constantinople, probably there would be a patriarchal vicar bishop in the city.
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Offline Nikolaostheservant

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

Well said!

Offline Porter ODoran

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The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

The Greeks have already been through all this. The Patriarchate was actually in Athens for a short time, as I recall, and then there was a plan that was actually signed by bishops and governments to relocate the Patriarchate to Mt. Athos. For that matter, there are a great many places around the world where the Patriarchate would be warmly welcomed. The solution that ultimately emerged was what we have now, and many reasons were given by all involved parties that were satisfactory at the time -- so I am not sure how the internet is suddenly conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks on behalf of all these holy hierarchs, dead and living.

I don't know the story, but... It wouldn't be "conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks", as:
1. The name still would be Constantinople (not Istambul, Athens, Karea or anything like this)
2. there would be Orthodox parishes in Constantinople and in other areas of Turkey
3. The patriarch would be (at least from time to time) the visitor to Constantinople, probably there would be a patriarchal vicar bishop in the city.

Is Turkey even demanding this? Any of this? Why are OC.netters assigning some kind of triumph (complete or almost-complete) to the Turks over an Ancient See anyway? What on earth is going on in this thread? Posts range from fantasy to malice. I suppose this is the debased condition of human minds with nothing to do.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Dominika

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The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

The Greeks have already been through all this. The Patriarchate was actually in Athens for a short time, as I recall, and then there was a plan that was actually signed by bishops and governments to relocate the Patriarchate to Mt. Athos. For that matter, there are a great many places around the world where the Patriarchate would be warmly welcomed. The solution that ultimately emerged was what we have now, and many reasons were given by all involved parties that were satisfactory at the time -- so I am not sure how the internet is suddenly conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks on behalf of all these holy hierarchs, dead and living.

I don't know the story, but... It wouldn't be "conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks", as:
1. The name still would be Constantinople (not Istambul, Athens, Karea or anything like this)
2. there would be Orthodox parishes in Constantinople and in other areas of Turkey
3. The patriarch would be (at least from time to time) the visitor to Constantinople, probably there would be a patriarchal vicar bishop in the city.

Is Turkey even demanding this? Any of this? Why are OC.netters assigning some kind of triumph (complete or almost-complete) to the Turks over an Ancient See anyway? What on earth is going on in this thread? Posts range from fantasy to malice. I suppose this is the debased condition of human minds with nothing to do.


Not Turks, but need of better Church organisation (especially in Greece) and development (especially in "diaspora"; not enough number of faithful on proper canonical territories of EP is blocking creating new, strong autonomous and autocephaly Churches) and refreshing splendor of "Constantinople Patriarchate" name demand it. Maybe it would be also easier to evangelise Turks (only Antiochians work a bit on it).
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Offline Porter ODoran

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"Demand" it? Seriously?

Surely we're blessed to have such deep-seeing minds here, to perceive this "demand." However, be that as it may, I fail to see how moving the Patriarchate guarantees a cessation (and not actually an elevation) of any of the problems you allege..
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Dominika

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"Demand" it? Seriously?

Surely we're blessed to have such deep-seeing minds here, to perceive this "demand." However, be that as it may, I fail to see how moving the Patriarchate guarantees a cessation (and not actually an elevation) of any of the problems you allege..

Maybe so such powerful word shouldn't be used, maybe "need" would be better; I was just answering for your
Is Turkey even demanding this?
At least in Polish (and in Spanish similarly a bit) it's a kind of stylistic instrument: "not x but [the verb of the interlocutor is repeated], so I had to repeat your verb "demand". I hope I write clearly.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Believe me, it's not word-choices that this thread has me concerned about.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Dominika

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Believe me, it's not word-choices that this thread has me concerned about.
I've understood it partly in such way because of this:

"Demand" it? Seriously?

Surely we're blessed to have such deep-seeing minds here, to perceive this "demand."
Putting in quotation the certain word, as it wasn't suitable.


Anyway, I understand there are some worrisome things in this thread, or rather something general, that I wrote here:
Yeah, Orthodox Internet forums are quite often a way to dream of realising your ideas, that you would fulfil if you were a bishop or another important person. If only you were! Well, maybe sometimes there is a hope a hierarch will read it and at least will rethink the issue.
And I can add: if the issues were so simply (liturgical revivement/restoration/doing according to the canons/typicon/for people, pan-orthodox council, EP matter and so on), bishops (or at least a number of them) would resolve them; but we're not responsible for the Church (at least not so much as they are), so we think we're wise and that we should present our brillant ideas in public.
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Offline Antonis

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"Demand" it? Seriously?

Surely we're blessed to have such deep-seeing minds here, to perceive this "demand." However, be that as it may, I fail to see how moving the Patriarchate guarantees a cessation (and not actually an elevation) of any of the problems you allege..

Maybe so such powerful word shouldn't be used, maybe "need" would be better; I was just answering for your
Is Turkey even demanding this?
At least in Polish (and in Spanish similarly a bit) it's a kind of stylistic instrument: "not x but [the verb of the interlocutor is repeated], so I had to repeat your verb "demand". I hope I write clearly.
The repetition of the verb like that is also used in English stylistically, for your reference!  :police:
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Offline Rohzek

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The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

The Greeks have already been through all this. The Patriarchate was actually in Athens for a short time, as I recall, and then there was a plan that was actually signed by bishops and governments to relocate the Patriarchate to Mt. Athos. For that matter, there are a great many places around the world where the Patriarchate would be warmly welcomed. The solution that ultimately emerged was what we have now, and many reasons were given by all involved parties that were satisfactory at the time -- so I am not sure how the internet is suddenly conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks on behalf of all these holy hierarchs, dead and living.

I don't know the story, but... It wouldn't be "conceding complete defeat of the Church by the Turks", as:
1. The name still would be Constantinople (not Istambul, Athens, Karea or anything like this)
2. there would be Orthodox parishes in Constantinople and in other areas of Turkey
3. The patriarch would be (at least from time to time) the visitor to Constantinople, probably there would be a patriarchal vicar bishop in the city.

Is Turkey even demanding this? Any of this? Why are OC.netters assigning some kind of triumph (complete or almost-complete) to the Turks over an Ancient See anyway? What on earth is going on in this thread? Posts range from fantasy to malice. I suppose this is the debased condition of human minds with nothing to do.

Yes, Christianity in Turkey is alive and well just like in the Byzantine days when you were a child. Guide O wise master. A country that closes seminaries and has only 2000 Orthodox Christians and is openly becoming less and less secular (hence more Islamic) is exactly where we should headquarter the most important leader in Orthodoxy.

Honestly Porter, for the last week you have done nothing more than blow everything that anyone says out of proportion and accused people rather falsely of impiety and heresy. Not to mention that you have been gruff with at least one newcomer. Might I make a suggestion that you take a breather.
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Offline RaphaCam

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I kind of wish Cyprian700 was here.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 12:11:35 AM by RaphaCam »
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This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Asteriktos

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 12:29:43 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline wgw

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I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin. 
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline DeniseDenise

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin.


Lord have mercy!


Can't you just read a post like the one you replied to and go 'haha funny' and not believe it needs a factual lecture in reply?

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin.


Lord have mercy!


Can't you just read a post like the one you replied to and go 'haha funny' and not believe it needs a factual lecture in reply?

Most amusing. 
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline wgw

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More hat/hair, more beard, more pious. Fact.

In Orthodoxy, on the basis of the iconographic emulation of our Lord, and on the basis of the bearded representation of Him that has become accepted in iconography (there was also a beardless one which the Arians at least were using in Ravenna, but which a probably Orthodox paten from the fourth century in glass was discovered in the territory of the Western church), perhaps due to the Mandylion, and so on, and setting aside the question of inability to grow a beard or difficulties with long hair, yes.

However, consider this: there are unsanctioned quasi-monks and moochers who prey upon the faithful by donning just the right kind of dirty beard and tarnished zostikon, for example, Rasputin.


Lord have mercy!


Can't you just read a post like the one you replied to and go 'haha funny' and not believe it needs a factual lecture in reply?

Most amusing.

You've got me there! ;)
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline hecma925

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I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.

Athonite=ACRODite?
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Offline biro

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I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.

Can you please leave the decision to 'brighten up' various churches to people who are in those churches?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Offline Antonis

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http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 02:04:08 AM by Antonis »
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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline hecma925

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2016, 02:05:21 AM »
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
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Offline Luke

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2016, 02:36:54 AM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2016, 03:00:11 AM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2016, 05:53:53 AM »


I very much like this image.  And ironically enough, the ecumenical activity of His All Holiness had nothing to do with my posting this thread, which indeed, as I believe I have made clear, is not about him but the institution he commands.  The majority of voters thus far have voted against the status quo ante; I am one of these, but as mentioned earlier I would object to any reforms of the Patriarchate itself (with the exception of reforms to brighten up GoArch, the Church of Finland or other lukewarm dependencies and make them more Athonite or ACRODite), being externally initiated or imposed by the other Orthodox churches, while he is alive.

Can you please leave the decision to 'brighten up' various churches to people who are in those churches?

+1

Offline Alpo

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2016, 06:33:18 AM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Your Divine All-Holiness, welcome to 'Murica.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:38:19 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2016, 12:59:25 PM »


http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...

And the Ecumenical Patriarchate canonised him anyway.  Seems the Patriarchate has thicker skin than its online defenders.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2016, 02:19:23 PM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?

I certainly do, but Syriac Orthodox coffee is better.  Seriously, the coffee at St. Ephrem's Cathedral in Burbank is better than anything you could buy even in a posh European coffeehouse like Caffe Nero.

However, even that pales in comparison to the glory of Ethiopian coffee, which is a divine blessing.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2016, 02:22:17 PM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?

I certainly do, but Syriac Orthodox coffee is better.  Seriously, the coffee at St. Ephrem's Cathedral in Burbank is better than anything you could buy even in a posh European coffeehouse like Caffe Nero.

However, even that pales in comparison to the glory of Ethiopian coffee, which is a divine blessing.

How is coffee Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox for that matter)?
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2016, 02:57:44 PM »


http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...

I believe the venerable and blessed Elder is wrong, although in all other respects Elder Paisios is admirable and probably will be glorified, and his concerns furthermore were not unjustified; the Athonite community I believe was owed a careful and detailed explanation of the reasons why reconciliation with Rome should be attempted, and the conditions under which it would neccessarily happen (a Roman capitulation to the Orthodox doctrine), and a certain lack of sensitivity caused the tragic Esphigmenou events; I venerated his relics once, I think (they were either his relics, or those of one of the other Hesychast elders of Athos of the 20th century, the skull preserved intact at St. Anthomy's in Florence). 

Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches.  My belief is that by and large, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is politically and ethnographically captive; we discussed in the other thread the impossibility of Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus being admitted to the Constantinopolitan synod and made Ecumenical Patriarch due to the current policy that the Patriarch must be a Turkish citizen.

By the way, I would also propose the requirement of Turkish citizenship is arbitrary and uncanonical; it presupposes a need for the Patriarch to enter Constantinople, when probably more than half of the Patriarchs of Antioch mecer set foot there, and when it appears from a listing of their directory of hierarchs, most Constantinopolitan bishops outside of the Church of Finland are nominally the pastors  of defunct dioceses in Asia Minor, even in those cases where they also serve a real, living jurisdiction (for example, HG Gregorios of Nyassa, who I think is probably one of the better qualified candidates to succede His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years).

So to me, it makes no sense that the EP must physically reside in Istanbul when it seems like most of his synod are, in addition to their real dioceses, nominally the bishops of empty dioceses which sadly exist only in paper, as memories, or as poetic psuedonyms for current jurisdictions, and these bishops do not reside in these dioceses and may not have even been there; probably most have never actually served a liturgy in their respective titular dioceses, or if they have, it was a one-off special event.  I see nothing wrong with preserving the names of these dioceses as a memorial to them and as a reminder of the need to repopulate them, and thus I see no need for the Ecumenical Patriarch himself to metaphorically atone for all of these titular sees by sticking it out in Stamboul.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2016, 02:59:20 PM »
If His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch must move, he can move to my town.  I will take him out for coffee or whatever he likes to drink after each Liturgy.

Do you think he likes Turkish coffee?

I certainly do, but Syriac Orthodox coffee is better.  Seriously, the coffee at St. Ephrem's Cathedral in Burbank is better than anything you could buy even in a posh European coffeehouse like Caffe Nero.

However, even that pales in comparison to the glory of Ethiopian coffee, which is a divine blessing.

How is coffee Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox for that matter)?

This article from Fr. Andrew S. Damick neatly explains the matter:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2013/12/31/coffeedoxy-and-heterodoxy/
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Antonis

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2016, 04:23:11 PM »


http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/elder-paisios-the-athonite-letter-on-ecumenism.aspx

Quote
First of all, I would like to ask forgiveness from everyone for being bold to write something when I am neither holy nor a theologian. I trust everyone will understand me, that my writing is nothing more than an expression of my deep pain for the unfortunate stance and worldly love of our father Patriarch Athenagoras.

It appears he loved another modern woman—which is called the Papist Church—because our Orthodox Mother has not made an impression on him at all, for She is so modest. This love, which was heard from Constantinople, caused a sensational impression of sorts among many Orthodox, who nowadays live in an environment of such meaningless love, in cities across the entire world. Moreover, this love is of the spirit of our age: the family will lose its divine meaning from just such kinds of love, which have as their aim breakup and not union.

With just such a worldly love the Patriarch takes us to Rome. While he should have shown love first to us his children and to our Mother Church, he unfortunately sent his love very far away. The result, it’s true, delighted the secular children who love the world—who have this worldly love—, but completely scandalized us, the children of Orthodoxy, young and old, who have fear of God...

I believe the venerable and blessed Elder is wrong, although in all other respects Elder Paisios is admirable and probably will be glorified, and his concerns furthermore were not unjustified; the Athonite community I believe was owed a careful and detailed explanation of the reasons why reconciliation with Rome should be attempted, and the conditions under which it would neccessarily happen (a Roman capitulation to the Orthodox doctrine), and a certain lack of sensitivity caused the tragic Esphigmenou events; I venerated his relics once, I think (they were either his relics, or those of one of the other Hesychast elders of Athos of the 20th century, the skull preserved intact at St. Anthomy's in Florence). 

Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches.  My belief is that by and large, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is politically and ethnographically captive; we discussed in the other thread the impossibility of Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus being admitted to the Constantinopolitan synod and made Ecumenical Patriarch due to the current policy that the Patriarch must be a Turkish citizen.

By the way, I would also propose the requirement of Turkish citizenship is arbitrary and uncanonical; it presupposes a need for the Patriarch to enter Constantinople, when probably more than half of the Patriarchs of Antioch mecer set foot there, and when it appears from a listing of their directory of hierarchs, most Constantinopolitan bishops outside of the Church of Finland are nominally the pastors  of defunct dioceses in Asia Minor, even in those cases where they also serve a real, living jurisdiction (for example, HG Gregorios of Nyassa, who I think is probably one of the better qualified candidates to succede His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years).

So to me, it makes no sense that the EP must physically reside in Istanbul when it seems like most of his synod are, in addition to their real dioceses, nominally the bishops of empty dioceses which sadly exist only in paper, as memories, or as poetic psuedonyms for current jurisdictions, and these bishops do not reside in these dioceses and may not have even been there; probably most have never actually served a liturgy in their respective titular dioceses, or if they have, it was a one-off special event.  I see nothing wrong with preserving the names of these dioceses as a memorial to them and as a reminder of the need to repopulate them, and thus I see no need for the Ecumenical Patriarch himself to metaphorically atone for all of these titular sees by sticking it out in Stamboul.
St. Paisios has already been glorified, and you likely venerated the skull of Elder Joseph the Hesychast.
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2016, 04:44:04 PM »
Very good.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2016, 11:34:56 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2016, 11:43:52 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\

What's the current approach? 
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2016, 04:09:27 PM »
A low iconstasis sounds awesome.   

Why should Moscow get to be the EP?   Let it stay put in Constantinople.   There are only 4,000 Orthodox in Turkey but I honestly wonder sometimes if there are that many real Orthodox in Russia beyond those only in name and baptism.  From what I have heard, the churches are mostly empty and most people confuse faith in Christ with nationalism and use the Church to stoke the flames of contempt for western values.

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Offline wgw

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2016, 04:20:51 PM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\

I don't wish for that, I wish for the Church of Constantinople to be free from political constraints upon the selection of its Primate.  Such a firebrand monastic probably would be anti-OO, but thats OK, because reunion will take time, we are pro-EO, usually, and there are bigger fish to fry.  But my preferred candidate for the next EP btw is HG Gregorios of Nyassa, the leader of ACROD.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2016, 04:29:54 PM »
A low iconstasis sounds awesome.   

Why should Moscow get to be the EP?   Let it stay put in Constantinople.   There are only 4,000 Orthodox in Turkey but I honestly wonder sometimes if there are that many real Orthodox in Russia beyond those only in name and baptism.  From what I have heard, the churches are mostly empty and most people confuse faith in Christ with nationalism and use the Church to stoke the flames of contempt for western values.

This is really a red herring argument considering that what I have been pushing for is locating the EP in Greece, in Thessalonika or Patmos, so as to provide increased freedom of speech; I offered Moscow as an option in the poll for the sake of completeness, and merely opined about Moscow as a possible host to the Patriarchate if censorship laws became prevalent even in Eastern Europe (bearing in mind Russia has its own problems in this area).  The EP must be free to preach the Gospel; ideally, this means he should be free to criticize any government, free to speak frankly about Islam and free to address issues like homosexuality, abortion and the role of women from an Orthodox perspective.  So for this reason, I also included relocating the Patriarchate to the diaspora as an option, for example, to New York City.

Regarding your complaint about the Russian church, this is in my opinion quite erroneous, and it is also offtopic, so I will address that in another thead.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2016, 05:21:04 PM »
What censorship laws in Eastern Europe?

I sometimes wonder about you fetishizing the externals of your religion, honestly, WGW.  There are treasures in Orthodoxy but too many traditionalists seem to gravitate to the wrong things.  The needful thing about liturgy is worshipping God in spirit and truth, not iconstases or having a nice choir.  I sometimes think you guys need a Theology of the Cross as a corrective to this focus on outward glory.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 05:24:39 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2016, 05:49:06 PM »
I sometimes think you guys need a Theology of the Cross as a corrective to this focus on outward glory.

LOL.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #119 on: August 04, 2016, 05:53:08 PM »
What censorship laws in Eastern Europe?

I sometimes wonder about you fetishizing the externals of your religion, honestly, WGW.  There are treasures in Orthodoxy but too many traditionalists seem to gravitate to the wrong things.  The needful thing about liturgy is worshipping God in spirit and truth, not iconstases or having a nice choir.  I sometimes think you guys need a Theology of the Cross as a corrective to this focus on outward glory.

WOW the heterodox telling us what we need, yet if we were to say you need to come to the true faith, there would be huffing, and puffing.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #120 on: August 04, 2016, 06:20:16 PM »
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Given all the radical Islamic madness going on, no one would want to go back to Istanbul.

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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #121 on: August 05, 2016, 02:16:19 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\

I don't wish for that, I wish for the Church of Constantinople to be free from political constraints upon the selection of its Primate. 

But that does not happen anywhere, maybe with the exception of the OCA.
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Re: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?
« Reply #122 on: August 05, 2016, 07:43:30 AM »
Consider, however, moving the Patriarchate out of Phanar could facilitate the appointment of an Athonite firebrand who could adopt an approach towards Rome and towards Islam more like what one might expect from the Serbian or Georgian churches. .

Be careful what you wish for. He might adopt the same approach towards OO's like you....  :-\
I believe the ecumenical movement bases itself on politics, rather than actual wish for reunion. Beside Russian-Armenian alliance, and maybe Pan-Christian cooperation in the Middle East, EO-OO dialogue tragically doesn't meet these logics.

If the ecumenical movement actually spared a moment to think about reunion and disregard politics (hypothetical situation), the flatteries reserved for the Pope would probably reach Old Calendarists, Orientals and nationalist schismatics in a second.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 07:47:43 AM by RaphaCam »
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