Poll

Given the recent questions posed about the relevance of the ecumenical Patriarch following the various unpleasant incidents preceding the Ecumenical Council, the psuedo-Papism advocated by the Metropolitan of Bursa, and the fact that aside from ACROD, the

Retain the status quo
9 (24.3%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to Mount Athos
3 (8.1%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to Thessalonika, Patmos or another Greek area under its jurisdiction
3 (8.1%)
Relocate the Patriarchate to the Diaspora (New York, London or another city with substantial multi-ethnic EP representation)
2 (5.4%)
Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece
13 (35.1%)
Revoke the autocephaly of the Patriarchate and transfer Canon 28 functions and custody of the Patriarchal jurisdictions to Alexandria
3 (8.1%)
Revoke the autocephaly of the Patriarchate and transfer Canon 28 functions to Moscow or another jurisdiction
2 (5.4%)
Other option (Please specify)
2 (5.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?  (Read 5470 times)

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Offline wgw

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I believe the Ecumenical Patriarchate, with the exception of a few bright apots like Mount Athos and ACROD, has become "lukewarm" and is need of reform.  His All Holiness is a most pious and reverant bishop, but the recent ecumenical council failed to accomplish any of the grand objectives envisaged for it in the 1970s, and in the run-up to the council, the Patriarchate's handling of the protesta of Bulgaria, Antioch and other jurisdictions came across as arrogant and even vindictive.

The Patriarchate suffers from a notable lack of non-Greek bishops in jurisdictions where such a bishop would be desirable, and at the same time, the autonomous bishops of the Church of Finland, in particular, Metropolitan Ambrosius, have caused disappointment to the Orthodox community through their conduct.

Additionally, while the Moscow Patriarchate itself is not perfect, I believe the Ecumenical Patriarchate has acted towards Moscow in a manner that is belligerent and hostile, and has encouraged nationalist Orthodox in former Soviet countries to form their own jurisdictions, despite having in the 19th century condemned as a heresy ethnophyletism in response to the Bulgarian Church separating itself from Constantinople.

Then we have the scandalous treatment of the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, the failure of the Patriarchate after several years to resolve the question of the Church of Jerusalem* having a parish in Qatar, in an apparent and possible violation of Antiochene canonical territory (I believe if Constantinople wishes to rule in Jerusalem's favour, they must explain why this apparent intrusion is canonical, and not just leave the matter unaddressed), and the well-documented decay of GOARCh in attendance, and a great many complaints about poor ecclesiastical performance in GoArch, which stand in marked contrast to ACROD. 

I believe these actions are largely due to the requirement that the Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, and vested interests in the Phanariote community, as well as the possibility of political meddling.   I believe that Turkey, in particular the large Alevi minority, is ripe for evangelization, but that the Patriarchate is not in a position to conduct such evangelization given its location in increasingly hostile conditions.

I believe, and have voted for, the Patriarchate to be relocated to Thessalonika, in the same manner that the Patriarchates of Antioch have historically been in Damascus, Tur Abdin, Lebanon and other places due to the collapse of Antioch's Christian community, and indeed based on the presence of the other Eastern Patriarchs in the Byzantine Court for many years following the loss of those lands to the Caliphates.

However, others might well see this differently, so I thought I would open a poll and see what people feel ought to be done.

Note that the question is not, how should this be done, but rather, what should be done.  "How" is a tricky question, but I believe a pan-Orthodox council, which is, by the Patriarchates own definition, "binding and authoritative" even for non-participating churches (for example, even if the EP refused to attend), could lawfully effect the change, and this change, if it were one which was unanimously and uncontroversially adopted by the other sees, would probably be respected by a majority of the components of the Ecumenical Patriarchate outside of Turkey. 
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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).
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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.
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Offline FinnJames

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

Offline biro

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

Yeah.  :(
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Offline Dominika

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Yeah, have forgotten about both!

I'm not specialist in Greeks at all (edit: except their contacts with Arabs during Byzantine Empire times), but for some reasons Cyprus ahs got autocephaly very fastly, I mean - was there a kind of feeling they're something different a bit? Because of being an island?...
Cilicia was probably a great mixture...
Anyway, waiting for sb explaining these cases better, it would be interesting.


So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o
Yeah, Orthodox Internet forums are quite often a way to dream of realising your ideas, that you would fulfil if you were a bishop or another important person. If only you were! Well, maybe sometimes there is a hope a hierarch will read it and at least will rethink the issue.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:17:15 PM by Dominika »
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I'm not specialist in Greeks at all, but for some reasons Cyprus ahs got autocephaly very fastly, I mean - was there a kind of feeling they're something different a bit? Because of being an island?...

Maybe because jurisdictions were planned not for nationalities but for administrative borders.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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I'm not specialist in Greeks at all, but for some reasons Cyprus ahs got autocephaly very fastly, I mean - was there a kind of feeling they're something different a bit? Because of being an island?...

Maybe because jurisdictions were planned not for nationalities but for administrative borders.
Thx, that has a reason. Anyway, nowadays the concept of jurisdictions is/tends to be/tries to be different. So, Church of Cyprus, despite being Greek one, would be something normal, compared with Constantinople and the Church of Greece, plus Alexandria and Jerusalem governed by Greeks.

I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question. 
:laugh: I've just read the title of the thread "What should the Eastern Orthodox do with the Church of Constantinople?" ;)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:26:25 PM by Dominika »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.


How could you even expect any less ?


or is that more....
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Offline wgw

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

As explained in the other thread, the extent to which I support liturgical reform in the Byzantine Rite is basically the program being conducted by ROCOR (not as neccessarily envisaged by the ROCOR hierarchs, but what is actually being done, for example, traditional chant has been restored but the parishes blocked removal of the Obikhod), combined with the restoration of disused liturgies, especially on their saints days, which Jordanville and others, like Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, are already doing, coupled with the possible limited use of a reconstructed processional Cathedral Rite in Serbia or elsewhere on certain extremely special occasions, with station churches, processional liturgies and so on, and also the robust celebration of the divine office. 

If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.

Note by the way, I believe you inadvertantly employed an argumentum ad hominem, not as a flame or as anything intended to be insulting, but rather, consider: any user could have posted this thread and they would have a point.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not pulling its weight and requires reform.    A case in point would be your own church, which is, in my opinion, failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community resulting in the uncanonical presence of overlapping jurisdictions, because ROCOR (or the MP, I forget which) is there.  This is ethnophyletism; your church should be running those parishes and offering Russian-Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar and offering these where possible in the same building as the Finnish-Gregorian services, in order to avoid the redundant duplication of parishes and dioceses in what is technically an Orthodox land, an area where overlapping jurisdictions are most disagreeable.  I will grant you, this problem might well reaide with the Russians as much as with your church, but tell me: have the bishops of your church tried to work with the Russians to build trust and unite these parishes under the Omophorion of your archbishop?

Constantinople is divided into ethnic silos.  As it happens, one of these silos, ACROD, is fantastic, boasting the highest attendance rates in America, but another of these, GoArch, is suffering congregational losses that rival those of mainline Protestantism (at a time when other Orthodox jurisdictions are growing), is convert-hostile, and in several places has not unjustly been regarded as concerned more with the preservation of Hellenic culture than the Orthodox faith.  We need the Christocentric culture of ACROD in all the EP jurisdictions.

This is particularly a problem when one considers how small the EP is, overall, even counting its presence in the diaspora.  I believe the current divisions between Greek, ACROD, and Ukranian Orthodox churches in the diaspora, and also a few Jerusalem Orthodox parishes I hear, should be dissolved, and these should all simply be called "Eastern Orthodox" and increasingly integrated.  In the case of your Church of Finland, I believe your church should be revamped and made autocephalous, and in the case of the Estonians and the Russian emigres of Paris, these should be returned to the MP to provide a unified Russian Orthodox church, with the stipulation that they retain the same autonomy and privileges they enjoy under Constantinople.   And I believe Constantinople should retain those portions of Greece where it is located, and Mount Athos, and I personally think HG Gregory of Nyassa ought to be the next Ecumenical Patriarchate, and that he shoukd appoint as his advisors, to titular sees like the Metropolis of Bursa, Athonite monastics, so that his administration reflects a balance between what is among the best in contemporary Orthodoxy (ACROD) and the traditional fortress of Orthodox thought and practice.

But, I believe it is vital that the next ecumenical Patriarch not reside in Turkey, but in Greece or the Diaspora; the Ecumenical Patriarch needs to be closer to his flock, very few of whom still live in Turkey due to the tragedies of the genocide of the Pontic Greeks and the forced population exchanges; his cathedral should be as majestic a cathedral as exists, and not the relatively humble and fragile edifice that is St. George's, and I believe it is vital that the Church convene an ecumenical council to command this* and to clarify Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and also impose some form of accountability mechanism to ensure that appeals to Conatantinople, like that made by Antioch over Qatar, are dealt with immediately.

Now, that is my opinion... what is yours?

* I do not believe any of this should happen while His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, and certain other elderly and much loved bishops are still alove, may God grant them many years, for three reasons:

1. I am not convinced that His All Holiness is personally responsible for many of the more apalling failures of his jurisdiction in the past few years; historically, throughout most of his tenure, while there were several unaddressed problems like the culture at GoArch, other things, like ecumenical relationships, were done in a very appropriate manner.

2. The possibility exists that His All Holiness is aware of these failures and is working to rectify them (consider the rumors and innuendo of late that His Eminence the Metropolitan of Bursa, who has been a part of the problem, might possibly be leaving), or that other conditions would change wherein Turkey might be a safe and welcoming country for Orthodox Christians and might allow the Ecumenical Patriarch to seek to evangelize the Turks, who need the Gospel.

3. Certain venerable bishops including His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch, His Eminence the Metropolitan of Diokleia, and others, having spent a lifetime providing distinguished service for the church, should not be exposed to the indignities that will accompany the neccessary pan-Orthodox process of EP-reform, a process which could cause a minor schism, and for that reason in particular, these venerable bishops should not be exposed to that sort of stress or potentially forced to choose sides if the EP were to be bifurcated.

The failure of the Pan Orthodox Synod and the other numerous failures of the EP make it clear that on the whole, it is failing spiritually and administratively; it is becoming a lukewarm church; the Orthodox community as a whole has a dominical mandate to reform it by taking the cool, soothing, refreshimg waters of the Gospel which spring from Mount Athos and from ACROD, and spreading these throughout the Church of Constantinople, reforming it into a dynamic entity that is qualified to hold the dignity of primus internpares by merit and not privilege (I believe that the diptychs should not be fixed as an inheritance, but that if the primatial church grossly fails and refuses to perform, it should be reformed, or another church should take its place, and indeed, the EO have been through that once already with Rome; perhaps if the EP cannot be reformed, the Thirteenth Apostle might take over as the first among equals, which is actually in a sense what happened in the OO communion, except the Coptic Pope lacks a juridicial mandate like Canon 28 of Chalcedon).

People look to the Ecumenical Patriarchate to provide leadership, but most of the actual spiritual leadership amd excellence in that jurisdiction is coming from either the Holy Mountain, ACROD, the monasteries of Elder Ephraim, and a few other spiritual "hotspots," not the Phanar, not GoArch, and begging your pardon FinnJames, not the Church of Finland.
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Offline wgw

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.

That was a technical error I should have caught during editing, apologies.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.

That was a technical error I should have caught during editing, apologies.


super-verbosity is not a technical error.  ;)
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Offline Dominika

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o

If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.
There is always lacking something. Always. If not liturgically, so in management, spiritual fathers. Or, usually, even liturgically it can't be perfect. Moreover, we can discuss, even in certan jurisdiction, what is really traditional or proper, and we won't reach consensus.


Constantinople is divided into ethnic silos.  As it happens, one of these silos, ACROD, is fantastic, boasting the highest attendance rates in America, but another of these, GoArch, is suffering congregational losses that rival those of mainline Protestantism (at a time when other Orthodox jurisdictions are growing), is convert-hostile, and in several places has not unjustly been regarded as concerned more with the preservation of Hellenic culture than the Orthodox faith. jurisdictions.
GOARCH is really so bad? As I've said in another thread, I'd felt much better in GOARCH's parishes (3 exactly) than in Polish ones, despite me nothing to do with Greeks or Hellenism. Readins also oc.net, I see that there are quite a lot of converts in this jurisdiction. Much more than ACROD. And the bishop of ACROD is not even of the same ethnicity like his flock (yeah, I know, you can give the example of Albanian Church, but it's quite different story).


his cathedral should be as majestic a cathedral as exists, and not the relatively humble and fragile edifice that is St. George's,
True.
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Offline wgw

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Cyprus has been autocephalous, afaik, for as long as there has been autocephaly; it never became associated with the ancient archbishoprics of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, or the East (Edessa or Seleucia-Cstesiphon), and when Jerusalem was rebuilt and Constantinople became Secundus inter Pares after Rome, as New Rome, it retained its dignity, and this was upheld IIRC in one of the ecumenical councils. 

On the other hand, after the Church of Constantinople was organized, Greece and Asia Minor up until a certain ecclesiastical border with Antioch became its jurisdiction, and these I would argue are organically and logically a part of what the Church of Conatantinople would look like, if Asia Minor and Greece were still united and still Christian, or if Turkey were to be evangelized and join with Greece in a new political union in the future.

I feel that at present, the Church of Greece is a healthier and more robuat juriadiction than Conatantinople, and Constantinople must be fixed before it can be expanded. 

Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.

Is there anyone who will dispute that the figure of 2,000 or so faithful in Turkey, and also the total number of Turks who are members of any Orthodox church, EO or OO, is unacceptable?  It may be the fault of history, but it cannot be allowed to continue.
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Offline wgw

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I love how the poll question was so long we never got to read the question.

That was a technical error I should have caught during editing, apologies.


super-verbosity is not a technical error.  ;)

No, but overrunning a field is.   Actually, the UI letting me overrun the field length and not tossing an error is a software bug, but I should have previewed the post.

I thought that question was where the bulk of my post should be; I have not posted many polls here.

At any rate, I believe the title makes the question clear, and my own comments explain my reasons for asking it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 03:29:34 PM by wgw »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Merge the Patriarchate with the Church of Greece, because:
1. That's ridiculous that Greece hasn't the rank of patriarchate
2. That's incomprehensible that in Greece, that's united in religion and ethnicity, there are two jurisdictions, both governed by Greeks
3. There still to many Greek Churches, or rather, governed by Greeks: Alexandria should be Egyptian (prayers for full unions with OOs, so then it would be easy) and Jerusalem Arabic (well, in holy sights multietnic)

The real see should be in Athens, but with the titular title of Constantinople (like that's the case of Antioch: titulary it's Antioch, but in fact Damascus) but ofc with parishes in Constantinople/Stambul (the same like it's with Antioch - Antakya).

1. What about Cyprus?
2. Independent Cilicia.

Cyprus has been autocephalous, afaik, for as long as there has been autocephaly; it never became associated with the ancient archbishoprics of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, or the East (Edessa or Seleucia-Cstesiphon), and when Jerusalem was rebuilt and Constantinople became Secundus inter Pares after Rome, as New Rome, it retained its dignity, and this was upheld IIRC in one of the ecumenical councils. 

On the other hand, after the Church of Constantinople was organized, Greece and Asia Minor up until a certain ecclesiastical border with Antioch became its jurisdiction, and these I would argue are organically and logically a part of what the Church of Conatantinople would look like, if Asia Minor and Greece were still united and still Christian, or if Turkey were to be evangelized and join with Greece in a new political union in the future.

I feel that at present, the Church of Greece is a healthier and more robuat juriadiction than Conatantinople, and Constantinople must be fixed before it can be expanded. 

Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.

Ishikis also believe the Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, etc., were in fact Alevis under different names. So in some respects, it's almost Trail of Blood-ish.
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Now, a key part of that "fix,"  one reason why I favour moving the seat of the Patriarchate is I believe that it would be politically dangerous or impossible for the EP to try to evangelize the Turks.  There are Protestants working in Turkey now, and it would be a disaster and an embarassment if we allowed them to convert the Alevis and moderate Sunnis.  Consider, Alevis number around 10-15 million, based on official statistics; I suspect their actual numbers are much higher due to taqiyya; they are obviously the reault of Sufi syncretism with crypto-Christian elements including a eucharist, confession, an altar with candles, and consider, as many as 11% of the Alevis have rejected Islam already and embraced Ishikism, an alternative theology for their religion (so the praxis is the same, but Ishikism stresses a commonality with Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism and various other ancient Iranian, Turkish and Kurdish spiritualities).  We could convert them.  However, I believe that such a conversion would be politically and otherwise impossible if the EP remains, for the time being, in the Phanar.
A few centuries ago there were some Western missionaries in Syria only to bring Alavits (that are also, like Alevis, a syncretic Islam, with taqiyya, misticism and some practices similar to Christian ones) to Christianity, as they thought they're in fact "lost" Christians. They failed. And the reason is simple: beacaue of the taqiyya we have no clue (or know very little) in what they really believe and what are their real religious practices.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

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Offline Samn!

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2. Independent Cilicia.

Cilicia has always been under the patriarchate of Antioch, not Constantinople. There's still a Turkish-speaking parish in Mersin (which, prior to the aftermath of WWI used to be an entire diocese) under Antioch. They even have a website: http://www.mersinortodoks.com/
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 04:22:32 PM by Samn! »

Offline FinnJames

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If your parish has lots of midweek services, and celebrates the Divine Office beyond just All Night Vigils, and serves the Hours gracefully and elegantly, and is in a beautiful, traditional temple with a full iconostasis, and has priests wearing beautiful brocaded vestments in colours appropriate for the day, and good vesture in general, and a beautiful choir that is well rehearsed and well directed, it is, as far as I am concerned, in no need of reform.

Mine is a cathedral parish, so I think you would be at least grudgingly satisfied with the variety of services during the week, the wealth of icons, the vestments and the choir. Since the diocese was carved out of another when another bishop was added to the Finnish Church hierarchy, the building was originally intended as a ‘mere’ church/temple so would probably disappoint. I know that you personally, wgw, would not approve of the low iconostasis, but the congregation here is happy with it. And some have even told me they prefer it to the floor-to-ceiling ‘wall of icons’ it replaced.

Note by the way, I believe you inadvertantly employed an argumentum ad hominem, not as a flame or as anything intended to be insulting, but rather, consider: any user could have posted this thread and they would have a point.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not pulling its weight and requires reform.    A case in point would be your own church, which is, in my opinion, failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community resulting in the uncanonical presence of overlapping jurisdictions, because ROCOR (or the MP, I forget which) is there.  This is ethnophyletism; your church should be running those parishes and offering Russian-Church Slavonic services on the Julian calendar and offering these where possible in the same building as the Finnish-Gregorian services, in order to avoid the redundant duplication of parishes and dioceses in what is technically an Orthodox land, an area where overlapping jurisdictions are most disagreeable.  I will grant you, this problem might well reaide with the Russians as much as with your church, but tell me: have the bishops of your church tried to work with the Russians to build trust and unite these parishes under the Omophorion of your archbishop?

Are you, from the comfort of your armchair there in the United States, really in a position to say that the Orthodox Church of Finland is ‘failing to meet the needs of the Russian immigrant community’? It is, after all, stated policy of the Finnish Church to be all-inclusive to all native and immigrant Orthodox believers? Are you aware that one of the priests in my diocese, a native speaker of Russian and Estonian, was hired specifically to meet the needs of Russian speakers in the diocese and both of the priests in my parish speak at least enough Russian and English to hear confessions? Do you know that Orthodox Russian immigrants in the north of Sweden come to a Finnish town in my diocese just across the northern border for church services and youth activities since their needs are better catered for here than in their adopted country? Do you know that a retired priest from Russia was invited to serve at the altar and hold gatherings for the Russian speakers in my parish when he was on an extended visit to a family who had been his parishioners in Russia? Are you aware that until the last Russian émigré monk died, Valamo monastery in Finland worked according to both the Julian and the Gregorian calendars in order to accommodate everyone? Criticise the Orthodox Church of Finland if you want, but base your criticisms on fact rather than fancy. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 05:00:09 PM by FinnJames »

Offline William T

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So, not content with merely reforming the Liturgy we've now take on the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well. How very wise we are!  :o


Bravo!

Offline Elisha

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wgw for Ecumentical Patriarch!    :police: :angel:

Offline Porter ODoran

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

Imagine the homilies
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Offline biro

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

Amin.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline DeniseDenise

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My personal opinion -- tho I don't see it in the options -- is to draw and quarter all hierarchs and elevate WGW to Lord High Super Holiness of Churches Present, Ancient, and to Come.

Imagine the homilies


Unto ages of ages
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Sincere disagreement with ideas and policies of certain bishops is met with criticism, ridicule, and feverish declarations of loyalty by some, but to make fun of wgw, those same people don't mind going full-blown ISIS on all bishops everywhere.  Interesting.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Sincere disagreement with ideas and policies of certain bishops is met with criticism, ridicule, and feverish declarations of loyalty by some, but to make fun of wgw, those same people don't mind going full-blown ISIS on all bishops everywhere.  Interesting.

Is it interesting? I'm glad to be interesting.

Personally, I found that putting WGW's original post's poorly-concealed grandiosity into full Technicolor felt anticlimactic. But it was the least I could do.

WGW's posts aside, any poster here who thinks an ancient see is something to be casually disposed of needs to think about what it means to be pious Orthodox.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daniel2:47

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthodoxy instead of Constantinople?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:03:09 PM by Daniel2:47 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daniel2:47

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

Offline Porter ODoran

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

And it might be irrelevant to my point. Moscow is not going to attain to some new worldwide precedence for any reason, but certainly not as long as she stubbornly remains an island.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item? *I see instead that you've included novel terminologies.

*edited
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:56:25 PM by mcarmichael »
To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

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Offline Minnesotan

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item?

Retain the status quo is the first listed option; is that what you're referring to? Or are you suggesting that our Nothing should be the new EP?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:48:47 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

And it might be irrelevant to my point. Moscow is not going to attain to some new worldwide precedence for any reason, but certainly not as long as she stubbornly remains an island.

Evidently your definition of island is vastly different than standard.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item?

Retain the status quo is the first listed option; is that what you're referring to? Or are you suggesting that our Nothing should be the new EP?

;D
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Moscow or Antioch to lead world Orthpdoxy instead of Constantinople?

As long as they refuse to attend councils, it's not clear how they hope to maintain their present status in the Church, much less gain some new honor.

When those councils have foregone conclusions because of the way they have been engineered and the rules carefully put together, it might be best that over half the Orthodox Church don't turn up

And it might be irrelevant to my point. Moscow is not going to attain to some new worldwide precedence for any reason, but certainly not as long as she stubbornly remains an island.

Evidently your definition of island is vastly different than standard.

If you know of universal councils the MP has tried (I won't say succeeded) to host, or substantial ways she has reached out in brotherhood to the ancient sees -- in these modern times, with the fall of the Ottomans and the Bolsheviks, when renewed brotherhood is so needed -- then now would be the time to bring those forward.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Asteriktos

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

So more like an Ecclesiastical Archipelago then...   :angel:

Offline DeniseDenise

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

So more like an Ecclesiastical Archipelago then...   :angel:

Exactly.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Missing the point.

Others boycotted.  And refused to sign various documents. Russia is not an island in this matter

You are missing the point. The latest council is a diversion. Some fanciful new honor for Moscow can't be based on internetters reactions to the latest council.

And you are ignoring my questions that would elucidate the point. But that is because you have no good answer to make to them. As Hegel said, it is facile to bring the negative; it takes real creative will to bring the positive. Kibbitzers don't make leaders.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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This is very biased. Why isn't "nothing" a listed item?

Retain the status quo is the first listed option; is that what you're referring to? Or are you suggesting that our Nothing should be the new EP?

;D

It should say "Do nothing." I've decided.

(In order to maintain the inherent bias, of course.)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 08:44:25 PM by mcarmichael »
To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

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Offline DeniseDenise

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No.

You are over reaching what I was speaking of.

You said that Moscow was stubbornly an 'island'

I pointed out that there are other Churches with them. Hardly an island.



That simple enough, or do you need bigger words so you can understand. 

Sometimes a person is making a simple point. About one thing said.


Not conflating it with the entirety of history. 

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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You are over reaching what I was speaking of.

Since what you were "speaking of" was a counter-argument of my argument, then it is not "over reaching" to point out that you failed actually to address my argument.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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There was a time I would have said keep the status quo. However, this business of primus sine paribus that occurs under the direct jurisdiction of the EP without so much of even a slight condemnation is deeply concerning. Then the EP has repeatedly insisted that the council is binding even upon those who don't attend, which is not how any council has ever worked. No no no! Councils are only ever binding if that church agrees to them. That's how councils have always worked. If the EP is re-merged with what was forcibly removed from it due to 19th century politics, I think it would resolve the problem by diluting the heresy.

Whatever the case, history will eventually force the EP to either move or end. Turkey is going to hell in a hand basket, and it only has about 4,000 aging Orthodox Christians along with no serious method of reproducing the necessary bishops. Merging is the best way to maintain and continue the honorable legacy of the patriarchate.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:07:45 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746