Author Topic: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?  (Read 4140 times)

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Online seekeroftruth777

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Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« on: July 21, 2016, 01:36:47 PM »
Loaded question, but one on my mind. I am not saying we tolerate this lifestyle within the Church, change the sacrament of marriage or priests not speak against the sinful act of homosexuality, i'm just talking about what one see is going on in places like Russia, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, etc against individuals who are homosexuals with violent attacks, violence, spitting on them, etc. by crowds of purported Orthodox Christians, and clergy too. I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do? I find as I struggle with my own sins, and I go deeper into my own faith, I can't hate these folks, I hate the sin 100% yet I hate all sin since it takes us away from God, and impedes our spiritual lives. I am also asking this question because my mom recently asked me "does your Church hate gays?" I can only speak for my church that we don't hate anyone, and pray for everyone, even our enemies but if she was to look up what going in Russia or Georgia, she would think Orthodoxy is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 01:46:54 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline RobS

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 01:48:02 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 01:54:46 PM »
The Church condemns homosexual acts as sinful, just as it condemns fornication between people with heterosexual inclinations, and condemns lying, cheating, murder, and all other sins.

We don't preach a wrathful God, so who are we to be wrathful? As I understand it, the Church teaches that all sins are a "falling short" of the glory of God, of the perfection we originally had in the Garden of Eden.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2016, 01:59:34 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.

Of course you do, because you want to change church doctrine.  It's find for God to use this "dichotomy" or for anyone else with regards to any other sins, but since you do not consider homosexual behaviour a sin, you throw the whole dichotomy under the bus. 
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 02:02:56 PM »
Loaded question, but one on my mind. I am not saying we tolerate this lifestyle within the Church, change the sacrament of marriage or priests not speak against the sinful act of homosexuality, i'm just talking about what one see is going on in places like Russia, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, etc against individuals who are homosexuals with violent attacks, violence, spitting on them, etc. by crowds of purported Orthodox Christians, and clergy too. I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do? I find as I struggle with my own sins, and I go deeper into my own faith, I can't hate these folks, I hate the sin 100% yet I hate all sin since it takes us away from God, and impedes our spiritual lives. I am also asking this question because my mom recently asked me "does your Church hate gays?" I can only speak for my church that we don't hate anyone, and pray for everyone, even our enemies but if she was to look up what going in Russia or Georgia, she would think Orthodoxy is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church.

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 02:03:45 PM »
There are people in the Church who hate homosexuals, yes, but hate against them is not part of our doctrine and the haters may be in sin.

We are told to love our enemies, and we can't love people who are sinning against their own bodies?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 02:05:30 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 02:06:09 PM »
No.  We are not supposed to hate homosexuals.

We are not to support their sinful activities/lifestyle.  We are to correct wrong teachings, and hopefully, stop it from permeating society and becoming a "norm", thereby endangering the salvation of even more individuals...although I fear it already has.

We are not to hurt these people, throw things at them, etc.  We are to pray for them.  We are to talk to them and try to help them see the error of their ways....but, we are not to harm them.

Do all things with love, understanding and kindness.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 02:20:49 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.

I suppose it's easier than parsing humanity/human.
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Online seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 02:25:18 PM »
No.  We are not supposed to hate homosexuals.

We are not to support their sinful activities/lifestyle.  We are to correct wrong teachings, and hopefully, stop it from permeating society and becoming a "norm", thereby endangering the salvation of even more individuals...although I fear it already has.

We are not to hurt these people, throw things at them, etc.  We are to pray for them.  We are to talk to them and try to help them see the error of their ways....but, we are not to harm them.

Do all things with love, understanding and kindness.

Beautiful answer Liza, if POTM was still around on here, I'd nominate your post. A lot of good edifying answers so far.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 02:28:14 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin) and the Kinsey scale (which measures hetero- and homosexuality (something that is considered a sin):

"Right-handedness is most common. Right-handed people are more skillful with their right hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that 87–92% of the world population is right-handed.
Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness. Left-handed people are more skillful with their left hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that approximately 10% of the world population is left-handed."

"When asked to place themselves on the Kinsey scale, 72% of all adults, and 46% of adults aged 18–24 years, picked a score of zero, totally heterosexual. On the other side, 4% of the total sample, and 6% of young adults, picked a score of six, meaning a totally homosexual identity. Overall, 89% of the population described themselves as heterosexual."

Draw your own conclusions.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 02:30:20 PM by FinnJames »

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 02:29:22 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin)

You'd be surprised.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2016, 02:31:07 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin) and the Kinsey scale (which measures hetero- and homosexuality (something that is considered a sin):

"Right-handedness is most common. Right-handed people are more skillful with their right hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that 87–92% of the world population is right-handed.
Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness. Left-handed people are more skillful with their left hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that approximately 10% of the world population is left-handed."

"When asked to place themselves on the Kinsey scale, 72% of all adults, and 46% of adults aged 18–24 years, picked a score of zero, totally heterosexual. On the other side, 4% of the total sample, and 6% of young adults, picked a score of six, meaning a totally homosexual identity. Overall, 89% of the population described themselves as heterosexual."

Draw your own conclusions.
Very interesting data, but I'm not sure that I see your point.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 02:34:19 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin) and the Kinsey scale (which measures hetero- and homosexuality (something that is considered a sin):

"Right-handedness is most common. Right-handed people are more skillful with their right hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that 87–92% of the world population is right-handed.
Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness. Left-handed people are more skillful with their left hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that approximately 10% of the world population is left-handed."

"When asked to place themselves on the Kinsey scale, 72% of all adults, and 46% of adults aged 18–24 years, picked a score of zero, totally heterosexual. On the other side, 4% of the total sample, and 6% of young adults, picked a score of six, meaning a totally homosexual identity. Overall, 89% of the population described themselves as heterosexual."

Draw your own conclusions.

Kinsey had his issues, IDK about quoting him, he one of the main reasons laws regarding sexual morality has liberalized so much with that Kinsey report that came out. Also what does Kinsey has to do with the topic of should Orthodox hate gay's or not?

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2016, 02:42:19 PM »
I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do?

No.  That's really the end of discussion.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2016, 04:32:52 PM »
Loaded question, but one on my mind. I am not saying we tolerate this lifestyle within the Church, change the sacrament of marriage or priests not speak against the sinful act of homosexuality, i'm just talking about what one see is going on in places like Russia, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, etc against individuals who are homosexuals with violent attacks, violence, spitting on them, etc. by crowds of purported Orthodox Christians, and clergy too. I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do? I find as I struggle with my own sins, and I go deeper into my own faith, I can't hate these folks, I hate the sin 100% yet I hate all sin since it takes us away from God, and impedes our spiritual lives. I am also asking this question because my mom recently asked me "does your Church hate gays?" I can only speak for my church that we don't hate anyone, and pray for everyone, even our enemies but if she was to look up what going in Russia or Georgia, she would think Orthodoxy is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church.

Where do you people keep getting this stuff? And why do you bring it up over and over, often posting within days of a similar post? Somebody's very bored.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2016, 04:36:51 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin) and the Kinsey scale (which measures hetero- and homosexuality (something that is considered a sin):

"Right-handedness is most common. Right-handed people are more skillful with their right hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that 87–92% of the world population is right-handed.
Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness. Left-handed people are more skillful with their left hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that approximately 10% of the world population is left-handed."

"When asked to place themselves on the Kinsey scale, 72% of all adults, and 46% of adults aged 18–24 years, picked a score of zero, totally heterosexual. On the other side, 4% of the total sample, and 6% of young adults, picked a score of six, meaning a totally homosexual identity. Overall, 89% of the population described themselves as heterosexual."

Draw your own conclusions.

I think you're the one forcing a correlation here that neither article so much as hints at.

If we were to pretend your correlation or anything like it could be granted, however, it would remain that, biologically, sociologically, and philosophically, homosexuality and all the other departures from the normal human sexual model have many and greater ramifications than blue eyes or left-handedness.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2016, 04:40:11 PM »
(Please note I speak of "other departures" -- homosexuality is very, very small compared to, say, the new habit of young people not to marry and to put off children until they are 30 or older [if they have them at all]. The latter has rather suddenly become an issue so large it affects probably every place in America, probably in large way; the former, while irresistible to certain posters here and elsewhere on the internet, must have a tiny effect in comparison.)
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Offline mike

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2016, 04:41:13 PM »
Loaded question, but one on my mind. I am not saying we tolerate this lifestyle within the Church, change the sacrament of marriage or priests not speak against the sinful act of homosexuality, i'm just talking about what one see is going on in places like Russia, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, etc against individuals who are homosexuals with violent attacks, violence, spitting on them, etc. by crowds of purported Orthodox Christians, and clergy too. I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do? I find as I struggle with my own sins, and I go deeper into my own faith, I can't hate these folks, I hate the sin 100% yet I hate all sin since it takes us away from God, and impedes our spiritual lives. I am also asking this question because my mom recently asked me "does your Church hate gays?" I can only speak for my church that we don't hate anyone, and pray for everyone, even our enemies but if she was to look up what going in Russia or Georgia, she would think Orthodoxy is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church.

Where do you people keep getting this stuff?

From reading about what the Orthodox do?
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2016, 04:53:35 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.

Of course you do, because you want to change church doctrine.  It's find for God to use this "dichotomy" or for anyone else with regards to any other sins, but since you do not consider homosexual behaviour a sin, you throw the whole dichotomy under the bus.

No I think it's very important to raise questions here, scam. What does it mean to be a homosexual? How does one remain a homosexual outside of "acts", why are "acts" of homosexuality different than a person who is homosexual? Isn't a homosexual defined by how they are in the world? Doesn't a homosexual have an inclination to sin just as all of us are since we are in a fallen condition? Why are homosexuals then treated so differently than heterosexuals that also sin? Not one person is righteous or sinless. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I thought the Orthodox Church has certain sins that forbid one to receive the sacrament of Holy Communion without a confession. Although it seems from the clergymen who write on the topic of sin that "sin is sin" and there is no degrees of the sin like there are in the RCC.

But all my questions aside, I will say that homosexuals are greater condemned than others when you consider the language used to describe the sacrament of Holy Matrimony in the Orthodox Church. It's a "special gift" from the Holy Spirit, and that union allows entrance into God's Kingdom which means eternal life of joy in union with God, etc and so on. Homosexuals are totally barred from this joyous mystery so they are treated differently than heterosexuals.

You and the other Orthodox need to be honest about this and this understanding should open your hearts to be much more considerate and sympathetic to homosexuals that are in your church.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2016, 05:11:14 PM »
The answer is an emphatic NO. We must love everyone. If a Christian had to hate a homosexual man so why then some Christians don't hate people that have sex with different people every night? This is fornication for our religion and in the Law the punishment was death as it was for homosexual sex. Church is a hospital. Church exists to cure us for our sins (body and mental sins) with the holy Sacraments, prayers, fastings. And of course to embrace us with love. Science yes says that many homosexual people are born in this way due to genetics etc... We can see here the decay of our human nature after the fall of Adam and Eve. We all need healing. It is hard for a homosexual to deny his sexual orientation and live as a "monk" for the Kingdom of God.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2016, 05:31:05 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin) and the Kinsey scale (which measures hetero- and homosexuality (something that is considered a sin):

"Right-handedness is most common. Right-handed people are more skillful with their right hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that 87–92% of the world population is right-handed.
Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness. Left-handed people are more skillful with their left hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that approximately 10% of the world population is left-handed."

"When asked to place themselves on the Kinsey scale, 72% of all adults, and 46% of adults aged 18–24 years, picked a score of zero, totally heterosexual. On the other side, 4% of the total sample, and 6% of young adults, picked a score of six, meaning a totally homosexual identity. Overall, 89% of the population described themselves as heterosexual."

Draw your own conclusions.

Kinsey's sampling was biased, to say the very least.
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Offline Svirsky

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2016, 05:56:24 PM »
From the Wikipedia articles on Handedness (something that is not considered a sin) and the Kinsey scale (which measures hetero- and homosexuality (something that is considered a sin):

"Right-handedness is most common. Right-handed people are more skillful with their right hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that 87–92% of the world population is right-handed.
Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness. Left-handed people are more skillful with their left hands when performing tasks. Studies suggest that approximately 10% of the world population is left-handed."

"When asked to place themselves on the Kinsey scale, 72% of all adults, and 46% of adults aged 18–24 years, picked a score of zero, totally heterosexual. On the other side, 4% of the total sample, and 6% of young adults, picked a score of six, meaning a totally homosexual identity. Overall, 89% of the population described themselves as heterosexual."

Draw your own conclusions.

Kinsey's sampling was biased, to say the very least.

Not to mention the fact that it relies on self-reporting - the same self-reporting that causes a lot of issues in other studies. Also, to my knowledge, the homosexual population is roughly 3.8% of the general population, according to Gallup.

Also, it doesn't quite make sense to hate homosexuals because homosexual sex is equally as sinful as anything else. Should we spit and curse on liars? Gluttons? To me, the main thing these people are responding to is the influx of potentially destructive ideas that seem to coalesce alongside the normalization of homosexuality, and their message really ought to reflect that. Their not fighting people - their fighting an idea. So, hating people just seems irrational.

Gallup poll: http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2016, 08:32:59 PM »
The answer is an emphatic NO. We must love everyone. If a Christian had to hate a homosexual man so why then some Christians don't hate people that have sex with different people every night? This is fornication for our religion and in the Law the punishment was death as it was for homosexual sex. Church is a hospital. Church exists to cure us for our sins (body and mental sins) with the holy Sacraments, prayers, fastings. And of course to embrace us with love. Science yes says that many homosexual people are born in this way due to genetics etc... We can see here the decay of our human nature after the fall of Adam and Eve. We all need healing. It is hard for a homosexual to deny his sexual orientation and live as a "monk" for the Kingdom of God.

There is still no consensus on  why homosexuals are attracted to people of the same sex.  Ultimately, it is irrelevant.  The Church has spoken on this.  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation. 
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2016, 08:43:14 PM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2016, 09:53:17 PM »
Science yes says that many homosexual people are born in this way due to genetics etc...

"Science" doesn't say anything of the sort. In fact, in this heyday of studies announcing the slightest correlations between every human issue and the genes, homosexuality is conforming very little to this line of thought, and that's not from a lack of investigation. You're confusing popular consensus and popular enthusiasm for science with any actual preponderance of research.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2016, 09:54:09 PM »
Where do you people keep getting this stuff?

From reading about what the Orthodox do?

You read the article daily? What is this, some kind of alternative matins?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2016, 10:07:42 PM »
Science yes says that many homosexual people are born in this way due to genetics etc...

"Science" doesn't say anything of the sort. In fact, in this heyday of studies announcing the slightest correlations between every human issue and the genes, homosexuality is conforming very little to this line of thought, and that's not from a lack of investigation. You're confusing popular consensus and popular enthusiasm for science with any actual preponderance of research.

Oh really?  ;D
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2016, 11:11:32 PM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons.  If they wish not to avail themselves of it, that's their choice.

Secondly, marriage is not the result of some magical incantation and the waving of a wand. It requires a lot of work.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2016, 11:12:26 PM »
Science yes says that many homosexual people are born in this way due to genetics etc...

"Science" doesn't say anything of the sort. In fact, in this heyday of studies announcing the slightest correlations between every human issue and the genes, homosexuality is conforming very little to this line of thought, and that's not from a lack of investigation. You're confusing popular consensus and popular enthusiasm for science with any actual preponderance of research.

Oh really?  ;D

Nice rebuttal. [/sarcasm]
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 11:12:50 PM by scamandrius »
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Svirsky

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2016, 11:58:26 PM »
Science yes says that many homosexual people are born in this way due to genetics etc...

"Science" doesn't say anything of the sort. In fact, in this heyday of studies announcing the slightest correlations between every human issue and the genes, homosexuality is conforming very little to this line of thought, and that's not from a lack of investigation. You're confusing popular consensus and popular enthusiasm for science with any actual preponderance of research.

It's worth pointing out that the science on this topic is extremely biased in both directions and likely will remain so for a while. One university site I looked at said (1):

"First, some of the research on this topic has been done by people who have strong prior beliefs on this issue. Not surprisingly gay and lesbian scientists tend to report evidence in favour of the genetic hypothesis, and those who find homosexuality distasteful or immoral tend to report evidence to the contrary."

It's also too early at this point in the middle of a lot of controversy for any dogmatic proclamation to be made on this issue. In particular, there's a few problems with saying that homosexuality is largely genetic because another site I was looking at pointed out that there were a lot of methodological flaws in the studies on this issue (2). There's conceivably some genetic component involved - the question really is how big of a role. Even if there isn't a "gay-gene," it's still possible for multiple unrelated genes to supervene on each other, combined with certain environmental factors, that cause homosexuality, but nothing's certain.

It's not like the science even matters on the issue anyway - on its own, it simply doesn't prove much. You'd have to appeal to something outside of science in order to prove anything regarding the intrinsic nature of homosexuality and its effects on civil society/culture - good, neutral, or bad.

(1) http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sch/Intro%202006/Genetics%20and%20Homosexuality.htm
(2) http://www2.nau.edu/~bio372-c/class/behavior/apbg.htm

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2016, 12:00:17 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons.  If they wish not to avail themselves of it, that's their choice.

Secondly, marriage is not the result of some magical incantation and the waving of a wand. It requires a lot of work.

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Offline mike

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2016, 12:03:24 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2016, 12:10:21 AM »
No
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2016, 12:10:45 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mike

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2016, 12:16:16 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

It doesn't work. Sooner or later it ends up with a divorce, broken families, crying children etc.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2016, 12:17:03 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

The big problem with that is the AIDS epidemic.  There are a lot of women, mothers of children, who have died or are dying due to their husband's proclivity for random sex.  Check out Africa.  Then the children are orphaned or dying from AIDS themselves.

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2016, 12:17:09 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

It doesn't work. Sooner or later it ends up with a divorce, broken families, crying children etc.

One can't make one's personal narrative a universal imperative.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2016, 12:18:28 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

The big problem with that is the AIDS epidemic.  There are a lot of women, mothers of children, who have died or are dying due to their husband's proclivity for random sex.  Check out Africa.  Then the children are orphaned or dying from AIDS themselves.

Very good point, very interesting contribution -- something the ancients did not have to worry about ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mike

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2016, 12:21:57 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

It doesn't work. Sooner or later it ends up with a divorce, broken families, crying children etc.

One can't make one's personal narrative a universal imperative.

Name one positive thing resulting from that.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2016, 12:29:52 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

It doesn't work. Sooner or later it ends up with a divorce, broken families, crying children etc.

One can't make one's personal narrative a universal imperative.

Name one positive thing resulting from that.

Children? The continuation of the population and its values? Stable village structure? These were very positive things, as the dying-out of a people was not inconceivable in ancient times.

People divorce constantly nowadays. People have no idea, beyond responding to commercials with borrowed money, what happiness even could be, nowadays. While, on the other hand, we have whole civilizations that are generally agreed to have been flourishing (the Attic) in which homosexual activity was controlled and counterbalanced by marriage and children. For you just to dismiss the tradition in a hiccup of recycled bile is what is not positive.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2016, 12:30:56 AM »
I find quite fascinating that those threads about gays just go on and on.
Death to the world dodos.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2016, 12:50:19 AM »
Yeah, it's almost like propaganda, innit?
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2016, 12:52:45 AM »
It's likely that people want to endlessly discuss a pointless subject because of propaganda.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2016, 01:17:55 AM »
It's likely that people want to endlessly discuss a pointless subject because of propaganda.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69397.0.html   ?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 01:23:58 AM by FinnJames »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2016, 01:23:02 AM »
  As far as your contention that it is hard for a homosexual to deny his orientation and live as a monk, are you suggesting it is easier for a heterosexual?  Why do so many people, both in the Orthodox Church and outside, assume that a gay person has to act out on his attractions or he is doomed?  Do you think that only homosexuals are monks?  I've met some repentant homosexuals and heterosexuals who lived as monks for the sake of their own salvation.

The argument is that a heterosexual can wave their magic wand and marry the first person that comes along and thus their 'no sanctioned sex' problem is solvable, whereas there is no such possibility for a homosexually oriented person.

Marriage, heterosexual marriage, is available to homosexual oriented persons. 

Even for you that's a very stupid and potentially dangerous thing to say.

What exactly is the threat to Scamandrius you perceive here? I'm in suspense.

The ancient tradition of homosexuals marrying women and siring children was widespread and can be found in Greek and Germanic sources. For example, old laws show the Danish vikings considered an open homosexual to be unimpeachable and even especially commendable as long as he also accepted the role so important to Danish culture of heading a family.

It doesn't work. Sooner or later it ends up with a divorce, broken families, crying children etc.

There have been many instances where it has worked and many instances where it hasn't.  Even for heterosexuals, being married is not some automatic blissful state. It requires a lot of work to attain that. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2016, 09:56:32 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.
I have to agree with this. How can you separate the two?

If you continue to knowingly  engage in an unatural act, there's no "excusing" the sin from the sinner.

You can't separate a man from his action, his actions reflect  who he is.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2016, 10:00:43 PM »
No.  We are not supposed to hate homosexuals.

We are not to support their sinful activities/lifestyle.  We are to correct wrong teachings, and hopefully, stop it from permeating society and becoming a "norm", thereby endangering the salvation of even more individuals...although I fear it already has.

We are not to hurt these people, throw things at them, etc.  We are to pray for them.  We are to talk to them and try to help them see the error of their ways....but, we are not to harm them.

Do all things with love, understanding and kindness.
I somehow don't believe you or any other Christian, would have the same approach to many other "sins".

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2016, 10:16:18 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.
I have to agree with this. How can you separate the two?

If you continue to knowingly  engage in an unatural act, there's no "excusing" the sin from the sinner.

You can't separate a man from his action, his actions reflect  who he is.
Maybe in the way we are to address the problem of homosexual practices among the faithful we'll interpolate sin and sinner, yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy. On the contrary, hate toward sin must sometimes be expressed for the sake of love for the sinner.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 10:17:34 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2016, 11:57:20 PM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.
I have to agree with this. How can you separate the two?

If you continue to knowingly  engage in an unatural act, there's no "excusing" the sin from the sinner.

You can't separate a man from his action, his actions reflect  who he is.

Every man is a sinner. He who thinks he is not is just a special kind of sinner.

Sin is the synergy of human will with the confusions of the Evil One. The Evil One obsesses the human will via the passions. Therefore, in another sense, sin is the synergy of the human will with human passions. So, in the end, everyone that is human is bound to be a sinner -- and separating a man from his sin, to love him and hate the Evil One, is the basis of grace between human souls and the only possible method of Christian interaction with anyone. Homosexuals are not the special kind of sinner.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:58:54 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2016, 12:25:33 AM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2016, 12:31:36 AM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.

Thank you. Gosh.

Maybe there needs to be an exhaustive reply put together that folks could just cut-and-paste or paraphrase whenever one of these threads is started.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2016, 08:39:49 AM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.

Do the bishops depose those priests?  If not, are they subject to any ecclesiastical discipline?   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 08:40:13 AM by Mor Ephrem »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2016, 12:30:17 PM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2016, 12:34:15 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2016, 12:36:36 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

If any poster thinks "a man's character" can be besmirched only by sexual orientation, it might go some way to explain his posting history.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpo

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2016, 12:52:42 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

Sounds just like Jesus shunning those filthy Samarithans, Publicans and adulterers. Glad to see someone upholding timeless Christian truth.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 12:53:10 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2016, 01:16:32 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

If any poster thinks "a man's character" can be besmirched only by sexual orientation, it might go some way to explain his posting history.

Tell it. :)
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2016, 01:58:36 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

Sounds just like Jesus shunning those filthy Samarithans, Publicans and adulterers. Glad to see someone upholding timeless Christian truth.

Mt 10.5; Jn 4.22; Mt 18.17b; Mk 10.11-12. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Alpo

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2016, 05:51:11 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

Sounds just like Jesus shunning those filthy Samarithans, Publicans and adulterers. Glad to see someone upholding timeless Christian truth.

Mt 10.5; Jn 4.22; Mt 18.17b; Mk 10.11-12. 

Mk. 2.16-17, Jn 8.11, Lk 10.25-37 , Lk 19.1-10 etc.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2016, 06:41:07 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

Sounds just like Jesus shunning those filthy Samarithans, Publicans and adulterers. Glad to see someone upholding timeless Christian truth.

Mt 10.5; Jn 4.22; Mt 18.17b; Mk 10.11-12. 

Mk. 2.16-17, Jn 8.11, Lk 10.25-37 , Lk 19.1-10 etc.

Gosh, a good old chapter-n-verse war! Just like the old fundamentalist days in America. It brings a manly tear to my eye.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2016, 07:34:47 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

Sounds just like Jesus shunning those filthy Samarithans, Publicans and adulterers. Glad to see someone upholding timeless Christian truth.

Mt 10.5; Jn 4.22; Mt 18.17b; Mk 10.11-12. 

Mk. 2.16-17, Jn 8.11, Lk 10.25-37 , Lk 19.1-10 etc.

So we agree that Jesus defies attempts at sloganeering.  Good.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline RobS

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2016, 08:16:37 PM »
God hates unrepentant sinners
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2016, 09:48:55 PM »
Quote
yes, but we can't, as Christians, shun homosexual individuals just like we shun sodomy.
You mean non-celibate, unrepentent, openly practicing homosexual deviants?

We certainly can and should.

I'm sorry, but like I said, a man's character is reflective of his actions.

There is no distinction between the two.

If any poster thinks "a man's character" can be besmirched only by sexual orientation, it might go some way to explain his posting history.
If any poster thinks a man's character is not besmirched by his "sexual orientation", it might go a long way to explain his posting history.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2016, 09:52:41 PM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?

This would only be a good argument if homosexuality is all that Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for. But this is not the case. If you read Genesis carefully, God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for numerous reasons. Yes, one of these was sodomy, but the more prominent one is inhospitality (pretty much everybody hated inhospitable places throughout the ancient world) to the point of raping newcomers. If that's not clear enough, the Prophet Ezekiel says it explicitly: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50).

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2016, 10:19:26 PM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?

This would only be a good argument if homosexuality is all that Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for. But this is not the case. If you read Genesis carefully, God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for numerous reasons. Yes, one of these was sodomy, but the more prominent one is inhospitality (pretty much everybody hated inhospitable places throughout the ancient world) to the point of raping newcomers. If that's not clear enough, the Prophet Ezekiel says it explicitly: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50).
Uh yea sure, God destroyed two entire cities because, well, you know, the host peoples weren't  most gracious to their guests.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with sexual deviancy or the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob. Besides, I mean like, gay rape-sex was such a common form of inhospitality in the ancient world....... ::)

Man, you sodomite aplogizers will believe in anything to convince yourselves the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality. A word used by almighty God Himself describing this hideous, un-natural act. as a matter of fact, God declared they both  should be put to death.

As long as we're babbling about bible verses;

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.-Leviticus 20:13

Whew, talk about violence against homosexuals.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 10:21:19 PM by Charles Martel »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2016, 10:52:17 PM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?

This would only be a good argument if homosexuality is all that Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for. But this is not the case. If you read Genesis carefully, God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for numerous reasons. Yes, one of these was sodomy, but the more prominent one is inhospitality (pretty much everybody hated inhospitable places throughout the ancient world) to the point of raping newcomers. If that's not clear enough, the Prophet Ezekiel says it explicitly: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50).
Uh yea sure, God destroyed two entire cities because, well, you know, the host peoples weren't  most gracious to their guests.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with sexual deviancy or the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob. Besides, I mean like, gay rape-sex was such a common form of inhospitality in the ancient world....... ::)

Man, you sodomite aplogizers will believe in anything to convince yourselves the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality. A word used by almighty God Himself describing this hideous, un-natural act. as a matter of fact, God declared they both  should be put to death.

As long as we're babbling about bible verses;

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.-Leviticus 20:13

Whew, talk about violence against homosexuals.

You know, when you're labeling the Holy Prophet Ezekiel a "sodomite apologist," it might be time to recalibrate your posting tone.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Georgios Scholarios

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2016, 10:59:04 PM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?

This would only be a good argument if homosexuality is all that Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for. But this is not the case. If you read Genesis carefully, God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for numerous reasons. Yes, one of these was sodomy, but the more prominent one is inhospitality (pretty much everybody hated inhospitable places throughout the ancient world) to the point of raping newcomers. If that's not clear enough, the Prophet Ezekiel says it explicitly: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50).
Uh yea sure, God destroyed two entire cities because, well, you know, the host peoples weren't  most gracious to their guests.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with sexual deviancy or the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob. Besides, I mean like, gay rape-sex was such a common form of inhospitality in the ancient world....... ::)

Man, you sodomite aplogizers will believe in anything to convince yourselves the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality. A word used by almighty God Himself describing this hideous, un-natural act. as a matter of fact, God declared they both  should be put to death.

As long as we're babbling about bible verses;

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.-Leviticus 20:13

Whew, talk about violence against homosexuals.

You claim to disagree with me, then you respond by saying that the sin had to do with "the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob" - but that was exactly the point I was making: God's wrath simply wasn't just about gay sex, it was more than that. It involved rape and other sins (as Ezekiel says) - which is what I meant by inhospitality (I didn't mean that they were rude, I meant that they were out to rape guests).

Assuming that I'm a "sodomite apologizer" trying to convince myself "the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality" is just totally off the mark. I agree that gay sex is unnatural. I don't have a problem with the Bible's teaching. I do have a problem with people who try to use the Bible's teaching to support violence.

To be fair to you, your citation of Leviticus 20:13 is a much stronger argument than bringing up Sodom and Gomorrah. However, we must undoubtedly also consider John 8:3-11, in which Jesus forgives a woman who is about to be executed in accordance with Old Testament law. Other points could be made to understand better Leviticus 20:13, but I think John 8 is the strongest counter-argument.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2016, 11:10:45 PM »
The Church condemns homosexual acts as sinful, just as it condemns fornication between people with heterosexual inclinations, and condemns lying, cheating, murder, and all other sins.

We don't preach a wrathful God, so who are we to be wrathful? As I understand it, the Church teaches that all sins are a "falling short" of the glory of God, of the perfection we originally had in the Garden of Eden.
'

+1; I thought this was perfect. I have nothing to add.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2016, 11:16:03 PM »
The Church condemns homosexual acts as sinful, just as it condemns fornication between people with heterosexual inclinations, and condemns lying, cheating, murder, and all other sins.

We don't preach a wrathful God, so who are we to be wrathful? As I understand it, the Church teaches that all sins are a "falling short" of the glory of God, of the perfection we originally had in the Garden of Eden.
'

+1; I thought this was perfect. I have nothing to add.
I have pretty sure I read somewhere Orthodox we aren't even supposed to hate the devil, and I know some saints even pray for the poor sap. If that's true then that's pretty much that as far as hating homosexuals or any person created in the image and likeness of God.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2016, 11:20:50 PM »
Can we just synthesize this in "Hey, it's unnatural, it's a sin, but we are not supposed to hate those people, nor judge them." and move on?
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2016, 11:44:43 PM »
Can we just synthesize this in "Hey, it's unnatural, it's a sin, but we are not supposed to hate those people, nor judge them." and move on?
I hope so.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2016, 07:50:39 AM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2016, 08:04:48 AM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

In terms of morality and values Soviet Russia was not that different from Tsarist Russia (maybe not counting a short period after the revolution, after which they returned to conservative values).
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2016, 01:27:12 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

I don't think this is accurate. There have been some new laws limiting gay voices, yes. The American newsmedia and activist groups greatly deplore them, yes. But calling them "violent persecution" would require some real evidence on your part.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2016, 01:30:15 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

In terms of morality and values Soviet Russia was not that different from Tsarist Russia (maybe not counting a short period after the revolution, after which they returned to conservative values).

Yes and no. Most Americans don't realize, for example, that quite a few things such as the secret police and gulags were merely inherited by the Bolsheviks -- they were created by the Czars. On the other hand, saying the Communist Revolution made no moral or values changes in Russia is really ridiculous.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 01:30:43 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2016, 01:49:27 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

In terms of morality and values Soviet Russia was not that different from Tsarist Russia (maybe not counting a short period after the revolution, after which they returned to conservative values).

Yes and no. Most Americans don't realize, for example, that quite a few things such as the secret police and gulags were merely inherited by the Bolsheviks -- they were created by the Czars. On the other hand, saying the Communist Revolution made no moral or values changes in Russia is really ridiculous.

The stance on divorce, sexual freedom, homosexuality, human rights, personal freedom, etc. was not better in Soviet Russia that it used to be under tsars, y/n?
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2016, 02:06:52 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

I don't think this is accurate. There have been some new laws limiting gay voices, yes. The American newsmedia and activist groups greatly deplore them, yes. But calling them "violent persecution" would require some real evidence on your part.

As far as I know there was an article in the Soviet Criminal Code that criminalized homossexual relations between men, the punishment was 1 to 5 years of inprisonment in labor camps.

I am not sure about the precision of the information, but other websites present similar content.

https://libcom.org/history/gay-gulag


Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2016, 02:52:09 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

I don't think this is accurate. There have been some new laws limiting gay voices, yes. The American newsmedia and activist groups greatly deplore them, yes. But calling them "violent persecution" would require some real evidence on your part.

As far as I know there was an article in the Soviet Criminal Code that criminalized homossexual relations between men, the punishment was 1 to 5 years of inprisonment in labor camps.

I am not sure about the precision of the information, but other websites present similar content.

https://libcom.org/history/gay-gulag

Ah I misread your post, as saying such policies also characterized post-Soviet Russia. Of course you're right.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2016, 02:53:58 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

In terms of morality and values Soviet Russia was not that different from Tsarist Russia (maybe not counting a short period after the revolution, after which they returned to conservative values).

Yes and no. Most Americans don't realize, for example, that quite a few things such as the secret police and gulags were merely inherited by the Bolsheviks -- they were created by the Czars. On the other hand, saying the Communist Revolution made no moral or values changes in Russia is really ridiculous.

The stance on divorce, sexual freedom, homosexuality, human rights, personal freedom, etc. was not better in Soviet Russia that it used to be under tsars, y/n?

If your concept of "morals and values" comprises nothing but sex, you are missing most of the picture.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline juliogb

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2016, 03:09:32 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

I don't think this is accurate. There have been some new laws limiting gay voices, yes. The American newsmedia and activist groups greatly deplore them, yes. But calling them "violent persecution" would require some real evidence on your part.

As far as I know there was an article in the Soviet Criminal Code that criminalized homossexual relations between men, the punishment was 1 to 5 years of inprisonment in labor camps.

I am not sure about the precision of the information, but other websites present similar content.

https://libcom.org/history/gay-gulag

Ah I misread your post, as saying such policies also characterized post-Soviet Russia. Of course you're right.


My theory is that nowadays hostility from some parts of society in traditionally orthodox countries towards gays is a heritage of comunist propaganda and persecution, that depicted homossexual behavior as disease of the 'evil capitalist burgeoisie'.

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2016, 03:16:46 PM »
Well, I think the comunist past has something to do with this violence, as far as I know, the Soviet Union had some laws that made homossexuality illegal and was persecuted by the state, even after Stalin.

I don't think this is accurate. There have been some new laws limiting gay voices, yes. The American newsmedia and activist groups greatly deplore them, yes. But calling them "violent persecution" would require some real evidence on your part.

As far as I know there was an article in the Soviet Criminal Code that criminalized homossexual relations between men, the punishment was 1 to 5 years of inprisonment in labor camps.

I am not sure about the precision of the information, but other websites present similar content.

https://libcom.org/history/gay-gulag

Ah I misread your post, as saying such policies also characterized post-Soviet Russia. Of course you're right.


My theory is that nowadays hostility from some parts of society in traditionally orthodox countries towards gays is a heritage of comunist propaganda and persecution, that depicted homossexual behavior as disease of the 'evil capitalist burgeoisie'.

You may be forgetting that gays were denounced across most of America within the last generation, and outside the biggest urban centers, usually stayed "in the closet." In other words, the kind of "unusual hostility" people notice in Eastern Europe and some other places is normal thinking and behavior in the long view -- how can we straight-facedly blame other nations as tho they have a special defect for simply not "keeping up" with our very fast pace of moral change?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2016, 05:35:16 AM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?

This would only be a good argument if homosexuality is all that Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for. But this is not the case. If you read Genesis carefully, God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for numerous reasons. Yes, one of these was sodomy, but the more prominent one is inhospitality (pretty much everybody hated inhospitable places throughout the ancient world) to the point of raping newcomers. If that's not clear enough, the Prophet Ezekiel says it explicitly: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50).
Uh yea sure, God destroyed two entire cities because, well, you know, the host peoples weren't  most gracious to their guests.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with sexual deviancy or the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob. Besides, I mean like, gay rape-sex was such a common form of inhospitality in the ancient world....... ::)

Man, you sodomite aplogizers will believe in anything to convince yourselves the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality. A word used by almighty God Himself describing this hideous, un-natural act. as a matter of fact, God declared they both  should be put to death.

As long as we're babbling about bible verses;

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.-Leviticus 20:13

Whew, talk about violence against homosexuals.

You know, when you're labeling the Holy Prophet Ezekiel a "sodomite apologist," it might be time to recalibrate your posting tone.
You know, when your defending sodomy and homosexuality against a direct command by the Creator of the universe or trying to obfuscate His direct commands by twisting the words of one of his Holy Prophets, it might be time to recalibrate your posting.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2016, 05:50:11 AM »
The attacks on gay pride parades in Serbia, Georgia, etc. are done by a few renegade priests. Violence is officially condemned by the bishops.
I wonder if they condemn the violence perpetrated  by Almighty God for attacking and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah?

This would only be a good argument if homosexuality is all that Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for. But this is not the case. If you read Genesis carefully, God punished Sodom and Gomorrah for numerous reasons. Yes, one of these was sodomy, but the more prominent one is inhospitality (pretty much everybody hated inhospitable places throughout the ancient world) to the point of raping newcomers. If that's not clear enough, the Prophet Ezekiel says it explicitly: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50).
Uh yea sure, God destroyed two entire cities because, well, you know, the host peoples weren't  most gracious to their guests.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with sexual deviancy or the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob. Besides, I mean like, gay rape-sex was such a common form of inhospitality in the ancient world....... ::)

Man, you sodomite aplogizers will believe in anything to convince yourselves the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality. A word used by almighty God Himself describing this hideous, un-natural act. as a matter of fact, God declared they both  should be put to death.

As long as we're babbling about bible verses;

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.-Leviticus 20:13

Whew, talk about violence against homosexuals.

You claim to disagree with me, then you respond by saying that the sin had to do with "the fact that the two angelic beings (males) Yahweh sent to town were practially gang-raped by a rabid homosexual mob" - but that was exactly the point I was making: God's wrath simply wasn't just about gay sex, it was more than that. It involved rape and other sins (as Ezekiel says) - which is what I meant by inhospitality (I didn't mean that they were rude, I meant that they were out to rape guests).

Assuming that I'm a "sodomite apologizer" trying to convince myself "the normalcy of the abomination of homosexuality" is just totally off the mark. I agree that gay sex is unnatural. I don't have a problem with the Bible's teaching. I do have a problem with people who try to use the Bible's teaching to support violence.

To be fair to you, your citation of Leviticus 20:13 is a much stronger argument than bringing up Sodom and Gomorrah. However, we must undoubtedly also consider John 8:3-11, in which Jesus forgives a woman who is about to be executed in accordance with Old Testament law. Other points could be made to understand better Leviticus 20:13, but I think John 8 is the strongest counter-argument.
If you, and by "you" it could mean an individual or a culture, continue to be obstinate in sin, mainly the sin of sodomy, which cries out to heaven for vengeance, then yes, you are risking the judgement of God , which usually entails a whole lot of violence as retribution for violating the Laws of God and nature.

And what did the Lord  Himself command St. Mary the Magdalene in your example of John 8?

"Go and SIN NO MORE".

And she didn't. not in the sin of adultery anyway.


Seems all the sodomy apologists forget that little qualification and want the homosexual to be comfortable in continuing sinning and making a mockery out of the forgivness and charitability of Our Lord and his patience.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2016, 09:11:10 AM »
If you, and by "you" it could mean an individual or a culture, continue to be obstinate in sin, mainly the sin of sodomy, which cries out to heaven for vengeance, then yes, you are risking the judgement of God , which usually entails a whole lot of violence as retribution for violating the Laws of God and nature.

And what did the Lord  Himself command St. Mary the Magdalene in your example of John 8?

"Go and SIN NO MORE".

And she didn't. not in the sin of adultery anyway.


Seems all the sodomy apologists forget that little qualification and want the homosexual to be comfortable in continuing sinning and making a mockery out of the forgivness and charitability of Our Lord and his patience.

This is obviously a topic that is important to both of us, Charles Martel, since we have both posted on it often though with somewhat differing views.

Though you have written much about what God wills, it is difficult not to suspect that you, like Him, are sitting in judgement. So let me ask you two questions, one which might seem rather distasteful, the other less so:

1. Where, exactly, do you draw the line between acceptable same-sex friendship and the sin of sodomy? Does the cut-off point lie for you--at a lingering look, a smile, a touch, a kiss, a fumble, genital contact, with the commission of some other act?

2. How, exactly, does someone you know or suspect to be homosexual convince you that they are not engaging in sodomy? Are you willing to take their word for it? Do you expect them to live alone their entire adult life? Do you require them to enter heterosexual marriage or a monastery as proof of their repentance from this sin? Or is there no act which would place them above suspicion in your eyes?

Offline mike

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2016, 09:59:46 AM »
And what did the Lord  Himself command St. Mary the Magdalene in your example of John 8?

"Go and SIN NO MORE".

And she didn't. not in the sin of adultery anyway.

Really?
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2016, 10:39:32 AM »
Loaded question, but one on my mind. I am not saying we tolerate this lifestyle within the Church, change the sacrament of marriage or priests not speak against the sinful act of homosexuality, i'm just talking about what one see is going on in places like Russia, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, etc against individuals who are homosexuals with violent attacks, violence, spitting on them, etc. by crowds of purported Orthodox Christians, and clergy too. I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do? I find as I struggle with my own sins, and I go deeper into my own faith, I can't hate these folks, I hate the sin 100% yet I hate all sin since it takes us away from God, and impedes our spiritual lives. I am also asking this question because my mom recently asked me "does your Church hate gays?" I can only speak for my church that we don't hate anyone, and pray for everyone, even our enemies but if she was to look up what going in Russia or Georgia, she would think Orthodoxy is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church.

We don't need to hate the homosexuals, we need to care for them, so they can be saved, because their way is the pit of hell.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2016, 07:40:43 AM »
Mr James;

Quote
1. Where, exactly, do you draw the line between acceptable same-sex friendship and the sin of sodomy?
The minute the friendship morphs into sexual perversion or something more than just genuine freindly companionship.

Quote
Does the cut-off point lie for you--at a lingering look, a smile, a touch, a kiss, a fumble, genital contact, with the commission of some other act?
You know the cut-off point in your heart. Christ explictly states  this  in the NT;

But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.-Mt 5:28

Lust can be applied to "men" as well for some individuals.

Quote
How, exactly, does someone you know or suspect to be homosexual convince you that they are not engaging in sodomy?
I'm talking about public displays or the open demand for "acceptance" of this unatural and demonic act.

What they do in private can  only be answerable to God .

Quote
Are you willing to take their word for it?
Would I take the word of a pedophile that he's not molesting a young boy who lives with him? But, that is a whole different scenario, if two effeminate grown men are tooling around or living together, then my better instincts would suspect somethings probably going on. Remember, the homosexual passion's are disordered, so I'm sure their deductive reasoning is compromised as well. But, again, what they do in private is not for me to judge, like many other sins. But make no mistake, all these sins will eventually have an effect on the culture and sodomy is probably the vilest against God and the Natural Law.

Quote
Are you willing to take their word for it? Do you expect them to live alone their entire adult life
I don't expect nobody to live alone. But do you expect Christians to accept the open, unrepentant homosexual "lifestyle"?

Quote
Do you require them to enter heterosexual marriage or a monastery as proof of their repentance from this sin?
The better question is, what does God require of them? It matter not what I think. But  if we as a collective, live under the divine law, then we have to obey it's principles. But to answer your questions direct, never should anyone be married if they don't truly love the other person or marriage should never be used as some kind of "cover" to hide their homosexual passions.

Same goes for enetering religious life. We all know how much trouble the RCC has had with unrepentant somodites entering monastic/religious  life as a refuge from society to veil their sin of sodom that still burns uncontrollably within them. Again, this stuff will eventually have an effect on the culutre around them.

Quote
Or is there no act which would place them above suspicion in your eyes?
Not as long as they don't flamboyantly display their sodomite lifestyle or demand "acceptance" of a sin that cries out to heaven for vegeance.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #87 on: July 31, 2016, 07:41:49 AM »
Loaded question, but one on my mind. I am not saying we tolerate this lifestyle within the Church, change the sacrament of marriage or priests not speak against the sinful act of homosexuality, i'm just talking about what one see is going on in places like Russia, Greece, Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, etc against individuals who are homosexuals with violent attacks, violence, spitting on them, etc. by crowds of purported Orthodox Christians, and clergy too. I want to be clear, I'm not talking about changing doctrines, changing Orthodox societies or not speaking out against Sin, I'm talking about the violence by some Orthodox, is that okay for us to do? I find as I struggle with my own sins, and I go deeper into my own faith, I can't hate these folks, I hate the sin 100% yet I hate all sin since it takes us away from God, and impedes our spiritual lives. I am also asking this question because my mom recently asked me "does your Church hate gays?" I can only speak for my church that we don't hate anyone, and pray for everyone, even our enemies but if she was to look up what going in Russia or Georgia, she would think Orthodoxy is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church.

We don't need to hate the homosexuals, we need to care for them, so they can be saved, because their way is the pit of hell.
And confirming them in their sin is one sure way to lead them to the pit of hell.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2016, 07:56:54 AM »
And what did the Lord  Himself command St. Mary the Magdalene in your example of John 8?

"Go and SIN NO MORE".

And she didn't. not in the sin of adultery anyway.

Really?
Yes, really.

She is regarded as a holy saint in both the East and the Western Church.

Do you believe she lived the life of a whore after her personal  experience and conversion with Christ?

That is blasphemy.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2016, 08:11:01 AM »
And what did the Lord  Himself command St. Mary the Magdalene in your example of John 8?

"Go and SIN NO MORE".

And she didn't. not in the sin of adultery anyway.

Really?
Yes, really.

She is regarded as a holy saint in both the East and the Western Church.

Do you believe she lived the life of a whore after her personal  experience and conversion with Christ?

That is blasphemy.

Believing St. Mary was that woman is not a blasphemy but a mere lack of education about her.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2016, 09:42:15 AM »
Mr James;

Quote
1. Where, exactly, do you draw the line between acceptable same-sex friendship and the sin of sodomy?
The minute the friendship morphs into sexual perversion or something more than just genuine freindly companionship.

[...]

Quote
Or is there no act which would place them above suspicion in your eyes?
Not as long as they don't flamboyantly display their sodomite lifestyle or demand "acceptance" of a sin that cries out to heaven for vegeance.

Thank you for your candid answers in reply #86 of this thread (which I've shortened here to save space). I've long felt this sort of open honesty is necessary in discussions of homosexuality since without it those on one 'side' can easily paint everyone on the other 'side' as a homophobic bigot or a defender of unrestricted gay sex on the streets.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2016, 10:34:25 AM »
And what did the Lord  Himself command St. Mary the Magdalene in your example of John 8?

"Go and SIN NO MORE".

And she didn't. not in the sin of adultery anyway.

Really?
Yes, really.

She is regarded as a holy saint in both the East and the Western Church.

Do you believe she lived the life of a whore after her personal  experience and conversion with Christ?

That is blasphemy.

Believing St. Mary was that woman is not a blasphemy but a mere lack of education about her.
First of all, you didn't qualify your response of "Really?" was indeed  regarding whether the woman in the Gospel of Luke was the harlot about to be stoned. Secondly. it is held in Latin tradition that she was the same "Mary", as mentioned in other verses in the Gospels as the "sinner" in Luke 7 as well as the sister of Martha and Lazarus.

At any rate, the woman is a saint and it is blasphemy questioning her commitment out of the life of adultery after her conversion with Christ. Which seemed to be the way you asked in context of your question.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2016, 10:40:58 AM »
Mr James;

Quote
1. Where, exactly, do you draw the line between acceptable same-sex friendship and the sin of sodomy?
The minute the friendship morphs into sexual perversion or something more than just genuine freindly companionship.

[...]

Quote
Or is there no act which would place them above suspicion in your eyes?
Not as long as they don't flamboyantly display their sodomite lifestyle or demand "acceptance" of a sin that cries out to heaven for vegeance.

Thank you for your candid answers in reply #86 of this thread (which I've shortened here to save space). I've long felt this sort of open honesty is necessary in discussions of homosexuality since without it those on one 'side' can easily paint everyone on the other 'side' as a homophobic bigot or a defender of unrestricted gay sex on the streets.
Your welcome Finn. BTW, I don't "hate" homosexuals, but I cannot in good conscience, as a Catholic or a man, accept the act of open homosexuality or the sin of sodom in any way or form whatsoever. This does not mean I believe that violence should be prepretrated on homosexuals for no good reason either. The problem is, with many militant open honosexuals and the govt/culture that enables them, it is becoming and "either/or" situation these days as well.

That's why I believe the U.S. days are numbered with all it's acceptence of the "sins of the flesh".

We are on a countdown to oblivion.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2016, 09:05:11 PM »
There's one opinion down, and only 7,440,234,413+/-to go.
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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2016, 12:27:21 AM »
I hate when homos redecorate my house without my knowledge or consultation.  I do not want subway tiles in the kitchen.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Are we suppose to hate Homosexuals?
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2016, 10:42:10 AM »
I really hate the dichotomy between sin and sinner that always comes up in discussions about homosexuality.
I have to agree with this. How can you separate the two?

If you continue to knowingly  engage in an unatural act, there's no "excusing" the sin from the sinner.

You can't separate a man from his action, his actions reflect  who he is.

Yes, metropolitan of Kastoria from Greece say that God hate the sin, but love the sinner, and he say that the Fathers say so.
Which is not true, Fathers never said so and they can't because it is against God.

Bible says:

Wisdom 14:9 Because equally God hate and wicked and his wickedly.

also:

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

and

Psalm 139:
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:45:00 AM by Indocern »