Author Topic: The Gideons  (Read 2769 times)

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Offline wgw

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The Gideons
« on: July 15, 2016, 04:43:17 PM »
I have read some Orthodox cririticism of this entity, but I wanted to know what the overall consensus is as I am considering joining if they will admit me as an Orthodox; Ive been attending and rather enjoying their breakfasts
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Offline hecma925

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 04:49:00 PM »
Based on their FAQ:

Quote
What do Gideons believe?
The Gideons International is a diverse association in that our members come from many Protestant denominations with a common interest in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. All Gideons also hold important core beliefs:

The Bible is the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.
Members must also:
Have received Jesus as their personal Savior.
Endeavor to follow Him in their daily lives.
Be members in good standing in their Protestant/evangelical churches.
Have the recommendation of their pastors.
Who is eligible to join The Gideons?
Generally, Christian businessmen and professional men age 21 and older (or retired businessmen and professional men) who adhere to the core spiritual beliefs held by Gideons are eligible to join The Gideons International. In addition to meeting our professional and spiritual qualifications, potential Gideons must also be recommended by their pastors.

For more information about becoming a member in your area, email tgi@gideons.org

http://www.gideons.org/FAQ/FAQ.aspx

Are you attending a Protestant/evangelical church?
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 04:58:03 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.
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Online RobS

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 05:10:30 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.
He wants to join a roundtable of pretentious pseudoscholars that hash over canons and Christology.

Where do you live anyway, wgw?
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Agabus

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 05:16:08 PM »
I have read some Orthodox cririticism of this entity, but I wanted to know what the overall consensus is as I am considering joining if they will admit me as an Orthodox; Ive been attending and rather enjoying their breakfasts

I've been to a presentation (years ago) where they specifically said they exclude Catholics. I'm sure you'd fall under that umbrella. Maybe that's a regional thing.

My own interactions with them have been mixed. I had one try to press a Bible on me on the street outside my college's chapel, and when I told him that I already own dozens of Bibles, he pressed it into my chest and told me somewhat aggressively that he insisted.  Others have been much friendlier.
 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 05:19:22 PM by Agabus »
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 05:58:30 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 06:03:13 PM »

I do enjoy finding a copy in the hotel desk.  I actually look for one...and am disappointed when it's not there.

Not that I ever actually use it.  I have the OSB and a number of other Bible version on my cellphone that I use.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2016, 06:03:50 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.
He wants to join a roundtable of pretentious pseudoscholars that hash over canons and Christology.

Where do you live anyway, wgw?

Except the Gideons probably have no idea what the canons or Christology are to begin with. Which is probably a good thing give how pathetic a lot of their Orthodox equivalents on here are.

I just joined the student council when I was in high school. Helped me earn valedictorian and student of the year.

Offline Agabus

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2016, 06:07:09 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 06:12:45 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Online Deacon Lance

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 06:15:43 PM »
I have read some Orthodox cririticism of this entity, but I wanted to know what the overall consensus is as I am considering joining if they will admit me as an Orthodox; Ive been attending and rather enjoying their breakfasts
They only accept Protestants.  Try the American Bible Society.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2016, 06:31:48 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.

So true.

"Youth Bibles." LOL.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2016, 06:58:30 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

I don't think he's joining "all these organizations" just considering one.  Besides, there's nothing wrong with joining a sorority or fraternity or any social organization.  Now, if that organization is doing bad things, that's different but I don't believe that's the case here.  And I thought I was a killjoy.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2016, 06:59:44 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

I think the Gideons are an American organization. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2016, 07:00:39 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.
He wants to join a roundtable of pretentious pseudoscholars that hash over canons and Christology.

Where do you live anyway, wgw?

Except the Gideons probably have no idea what the canons or Christology are to begin with. Which is probably a good thing give how pathetic a lot of their Orthodox equivalents on here are.

I just joined the student council when I was in high school. Helped me earn valedictorian and student of the year.
Sorry I was speaking to what club wgw really wants to join, the Gideons won't fill the void obviously.

Congrats on the valedictorian and SOTY.

I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.
Those World Orthodoxy bibles are satanic.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:01:44 PM by nothing »
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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2016, 07:23:23 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.
Those World Orthodoxy bibles are satanic.

I don't know if they're Satanic, but they're certainly goofy. 

What Bible do you use? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Online RobS

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2016, 07:31:19 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.
Those World Orthodoxy bibles are satanic.

I don't know if they're Satanic, but they're certainly goofy. 

What Bible do you use?
The OT I have in Hebrew scrolls and the NT on papyrus in Koine Greek. It's very difficult to carry around as you can imagine.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:31:34 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Antonis

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2016, 07:35:24 PM »
I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.
Those World Orthodoxy bibles are satanic.

I don't know if they're Satanic, but they're certainly goofy. 

What Bible do you use?
The OT I have in Hebrew scrolls and the NT on papyrus in Koine Greek. It's very difficult to carry around as you can imagine.
Non-Septuagint is satanic.
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Offline wgw

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2016, 07:42:35 PM »
Based on their FAQ:

Quote
What do Gideons believe?
The Gideons International is a diverse association in that our members come from many Protestant denominations with a common interest in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. All Gideons also hold important core beliefs:

The Bible is the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.
Members must also:
Have received Jesus as their personal Savior.
Endeavor to follow Him in their daily lives.
Be members in good standing in their Protestant/evangelical churches.
Have the recommendation of their pastors.
Who is eligible to join The Gideons?
Generally, Christian businessmen and professional men age 21 and older (or retired businessmen and professional men) who adhere to the core spiritual beliefs held by Gideons are eligible to join The Gideons International. In addition to meeting our professional and spiritual qualifications, potential Gideons must also be recommended by their pastors.

For more information about becoming a member in your area, email tgi@gideons.org

http://www.gideons.org/FAQ/FAQ.aspx

Are you attending a Protestant/evangelical church?

No.  But those qualifications were not the same as were handed to me on the membership form; in particular, the requirement to be referred by my Pastor was absent and the form said "Not Cathokic" instead of "Protestant/evangelical."  Now, maybe its the regional chapter having different rules than the national chapter which owns the website.


Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.


You suggested I get involved in local Christian service, but the Orthodox Church itself in this small town has no parish, the nearest parishes are in an adjacent locale, where Indrive to, and they are very small with minimal operations.  I like Bible-distrubtion and think having the Holy Scriptures in prisons and hotels helps promote the Christian faith including Orthodoxy, and Gideons also has a compact KJV with just the Psalms and Proverbs and New Testament, which strikes me as being a good tool for promoting The Orthodox practice of praying the Psalter, even if its not the LXX Psalter (btw the English-language Coptic Agpeya I have uses a Masoretic Psalter like the KJV psalter).  I also thought btw you suggested I join a bereavement support group as well.

I was not told when joining the Orthodox Church to quit non-Orthodox organizations; I can see the concern about some fraternities like the Freemasons that are quasi religious but not lay ecumenical Christian service organizations which do not have distinctive rites, practices or dogma like the Freemasons which is contrary to Orthodoxy.

I would also note I am a member, or have been since becoming Orthodox, of a Linux user group, a programmers association, the American Institute of Graphic Arts, a political entity, and to my surprise, a labour union.  I assume you dont mean to imply that membership in that sort of organization is bad or unhealthy?   I was also a member of many other entities including a railroad historical society, the Design Management Institute, a chamber of commerce and have a lifetime membership in several others; in my youth I Was a cub scout; later I was in a Masonic youth group, but only for one year as it creeped me out...  Then I was in the youth group at my church.   I also very nearly joined Rotary.

It did not strike me that any of these entities with the exception of the Masonic Youth, and a certain other entity which I would prefer not to talk about for obvious reasons, were incompatible with the Orthodox faith.  Especially in the US, where the kind of church related associations that exist in Orthodox lands are either small or non existant.  My Orthodox parish consists of one Sunday service, and thats it.  And my understanding is that as long as secular or parachurch associations do not conflict with either the teachings of the Church or interfere with church attendance (for instance, I would not join the American Association of Atheists or the Sunday morning motorcycling club that operates in mynsmall town, although in the case of the latter the lack of a motorcycle ensures my piety :P ).   

So if you could clarify what you mean, like for example, if you are opposed to joining religion-related groups that are not specifically a part of or associated with or reserved for or controlled by the Orthodox, like this forum, Ive got you, and I will take that advise into strong considerations re: the Gideons.  Because I do not want to repeat earlier mistakes, or join a group that would compromise my Orthodoxy or that has an anti-Orthodox agenda.


Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.
He wants to join a roundtable of pretentious pseudoscholars that hash over canons and Christology.

Where do you live anyway, wgw?

No, the guys I had breakfast with did not strike me as the kind of guys who younwould talk about canons with ("Canons!  What are you, a Catholic?") or who would know what the word Christology meant.  These are nice Christian guys; one is interested in railroading, a shared interest of mine, and used to be a railwayman himself, one is into news on the persecution of Christians around the world and one gentlemen is very quiet.  They are also all businessmen, like me, so we have that in common; I used to have a good sized small business with five employees and a nice turnover, which I had to sell to pay for my fathers medical costs, and I recently received seed money to launch a new one with a partner, so Im back in business albeit on a much smaller scale.  These chaps know nothing about my line of work or vice versa but they do know about business management, finance (basically cashflow for a startup), and related details, such as the minutiae of incorporation, so they are useful to know in that respect given my line of work.  Its a bit like a Chamber of Commerce that distributes Bibles as its main goal. 

I have read some Orthodox cririticism of this entity, but I wanted to know what the overall consensus is as I am considering joining if they will admit me as an Orthodox; Ive been attending and rather enjoying their breakfasts

I've been to a presentation (years ago) where they specifically said they exclude Catholics. I'm sure you'd fall under that umbrella. Maybe that's a regional thing.

My own interactions with them have been mixed. I had one try to press a Bible on me on the street outside my college's chapel, and when I told him that I already own dozens of Bibles, he pressed it into my chest and told me somewhat aggressively that he insisted.  Others have been much friendlier.
 

Thank you for that information; it is disturbing and unsettling and something to ask about in the discernment process.

I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times. 

I have one that was issued to a soldier of unknown identity with it during World War II, Korea or the Allied Ocupation of Europe.  I dont know if it was printed by the Gideons or not but it looks like the same thing.  It, unlike the Gideons Bible, contains a collection of beautiful prayers in the back including the Lords Prayer and several relevant to soldiers in combat or away from home, and also blessings for meals et cetera, so its almost reminiscent of an Agpeya.  I might upload a scan of it.  It is actually my favourite Bible and I believe it has a certain holiness on account of the extreme degree it was used.  I dont know if the owner lived or died.

I also have a 1962 Cathedral Missal that belonged to a Viet Nam soldier killed in action.  It has his name and service number in the cover.  He went to the same parish that I visited to see the Traditional Latin Mass (Diocesan) on a few occasions and we managed to get introduced to his relatives and to present it to them, which was very special.  They asked us to keep it as a memory of him outside of their family but took pictures.  My mothr had acquired it in the 1970s in a thrift store or surplus store, not knowing its history, which was very close to home as several of her friends were killed.


I do enjoy finding a copy in the hotel desk.  I actually look for one...and am disappointed when it's not there.

Not that I ever actually use it.  I have the OSB and a number of other Bible version on my cellphone that I use.

Me too.  I try to avoid Marriotts because they dont have the Bible but a Book of Mormon.  However recently I have stayed at one high end hotel and two cheap ones which lacked it.  According to the Gideons, an increasing number of hotels are refusing to let them distribute their bibles, and some hospitals and jails are even giving them a hard time.  This is because of an argument along the line sof "Well, if we allow a Bible, we should also allow a Quran, et cetera."  The Gideons have actually said "Fine, put in a Quran"; the consensus among the guys I had breakfast with was that among the holy books the Bible would stand on its own, so what it really is is a case of secularization.  One bed and breakfast in the UK was reported in the Torygraph a few years ago as having replaced their Gideon Bibles with Fifty Shades of Grey, which is a graphic obscene novel, and that act is sickening, and I have also heard reports that Santa Catalina Island near Los Angeles has passeged legislation to try to ban the Gideons from placing their Bibles or distributing them...I have not verified that story; if it was the kind of in your face deal that Agabus referred to, that would be a different matter.  But it is this resistance to the placement of Bibles, which helps create a sense of Christian social cohesion, that upsets me, and makes me want to join, because this seems like an example of, if not persecution in the case of private hotels, antagonism towards religion.  I would hate it if the Marriott chain was the only hotel with a Bible in it because of their Mormon ownership.

I have read some Orthodox cririticism of this entity, but I wanted to know what the overall consensus is as I am considering joining if they will admit me as an Orthodox; Ive been attending and rather enjoying their breakfasts
They only accept Protestants.  Try the American Bible Society.

I will look into it, if they have a local chapter.  I have to confess, begging your pardon, that Inwas going to try to get in by printing out a tract from some pro-SSPX website I once found that accuses the Orthodox of being "The First Protestants," and using that as evidence "from the horse's mouth" as to my non-Catholic credentials.  There are also a few ancient papal bulls that might prove useful.  On the other hand if they watch the news and hear about our Patriarchs meeting with the Pope that might result in failure.  I think the American Bible Society may have published the military pocket bible I mentioned earlier; I dont know, but if thats the case I would rather join them in the abstract.  The real question though is do they have a chapter in the small town where I live?

I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.
Those World Orthodoxy bibles are satanic.

I don't know if they're Satanic, but they're certainly goofy. 

What Bible do you use?
The OT I have in Hebrew scrolls and the NT on papyrus in Koine Greek. It's very difficult to carry around as you can imagine.

Cool.  That must have cost a fortune; a Torah scroll by itself ks something like $80,000, new, although if one becomes damaged and non-Kosher you might be able to get it from a Synagogue at a discount...strict synagogues bury their Torah scrolls or have a special attic where they are kept.  There is also a black market in them; due to the value, intact, new and undamaged Torah scrolls get stolen; in response, Jewish scribes are putting serial numbers or watermarks or something on them to allow the identification of a stolen scroll and make it impossible to sell.  Then you'd need the Megillot, or five scrolls (Esther, Ruth, Lamentations, Somg of Songs, and Proverbs), and the Psalms and Ketuvim; the latter usually are distributed as codices these days.  As for the New Testament, an authentic papyrus codex of the entire NT, without the OT, unless it was a reproduction, would likely be either a museum piece or pretty expensive, but if you did buy a reproduction, that would be interesting.  I would love to own a reproduction of the Book of Kells or the Rabbula Gospels or some of the Byzantine and Armenian illuminated Evangelions or an illuminated Psalter; those were gorgeous.  I recently found online photographs of the illuminated manuscripts produced by a brilliant Armenian iconographer and miniaturist, which were exquisite; I will try and find that URL later and post it in the OO forum, as it was very stunningly gorgeous.

In the mean time, I have ro run, but thank you all for your very helpful replies, God bless you, and please peay for me, a sinner.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline JamesR

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2016, 07:56:51 PM »
What you really need is a woman.

All of this organizations fraternity stuff is just a way of avoiding the problem and/or coping with it.

Friend, those Gideons may seem nice and tolerant. But I'm assuming that is only because they do not know that you are Orthodox or if they do, they envision it as another obscure sect of Protestantism. Take them to a Divine Liturgy and I can assure you that they will no longer be interested in your friendship let alone accepting you as a member.

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2016, 08:01:17 PM »
The ABS publishes an RSV Militray New Testament and Psalms for Orthodox Christians.  They also publish an Amharic Orthodox Bible.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2016, 08:47:14 PM »
Well, through your prayers, the appointment went well.

What you really need is a woman.

I appreciate your concern; I have a girlfriend and we have had an off and on romantic relationship since 2011.  And alas, I propose adding another woman to my love life would be a good way to make it even more complex, and might lead to the kind of entanglement I like to avoid, particularly since there is a fair chance God willing we might actually be able to have a more stable and steady relationship in the near future once she completes her physicians licensing exams and I resolve my late father's estate.   Thank you for your concern though; I likewise hope you yourself have also found a woman to love since I first met you on OC.net.   Once nice thing about the Gideons is the wives of the businessmen are also involved and participate in the breakfasts, and provide support.

However, I don't think we should dismiss the monastic vocation.  It takes guts for a man to renounce sex and live a life of strict fasting, prayer and repentance.  They keep us safe.

The ABS publishes an RSV Militray New Testament and Psalms for Orthodox Christians.  They also publish an Amharic Orthodox Bible.

This sounds very good, all other things being equal, I would join that group.  I discovered this Gideons chapter by accident because they have breakfast at my favourite local Mexican restaurant early Satueday morning, where I also go habitually every Saturday morning for coffee and a spanish omelette.  If the ABS has a local chapter though I will look into that because it seems they are directly involved in the kind of thing that we want, whereas the Gideons are kind of low-church evangelical Protestant to a point where I may not feel comfortable being directly involved, as much as I like their bibles and am fasxinated by their logistics operation.  For example, the Gideons replace hotel Bibles every two years, remove and recycle the hardcover, and put the pages in a paperback, for distribution at prisons.  They also supply hotels with extra Bibles and do not object to people removing them; the maids place the Bibles in the rooms and replace them if they go missing.

I once attended a standup comedian regime where the comic made a hilarious joke about "Has anyone ever seen a Gideon?" complete with speculation that they sneak into hotel rooms like ninjas or cat burglars, so learning how they actually place bibles was both cool and almost as interesting.  They have complex inventory management et cetera.

Im sure ABS has that as well.

Their Amharic Bibles I presume are for the use of, and have the blessing of, the Ethiopian church?  Do they contain Amharic translations of the additional books in either the Narrow or Broad Canon?

nothing introduced a slight tangent into this thread about luxury Bible editions; one thing I would kill for except for my oppoosition to violence and the obvious contradiction that would entail, would be an English translation from the Geez of a complete Ethiopian Broad Canon set of Scriptures, with 1 Enoch et al, accompanied with historical notes, commentary and color illustrations of Ethiopian icons, photos of Ethiopian churches, clergy, maps, saints and so on.  That would be awesomeness according to essence and ontology.  ;)

I like their pocket-sized New Testament with Psalms.  I try to carry one with me at all times.

If only you could excise the American flag on the inside cover.

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least it's not the Ecumenical Patriarchate logo emblazoned on those denim Youth Bibles.
Those World Orthodoxy bibles are satanic.

I don't know if they're Satanic, but they're certainly goofy. 

What Bible do you use? 

Can you link me to info on these because I have no idea what you are talking about, but being a goofy man I would enjoy reading about a goofy thing right now.  :P


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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2016, 09:39:30 PM »
What you really need is a woman.

That particular advice coming from you is hilarious.

All of this organizations fraternity stuff is just a way of avoiding the problem and/or coping with it.

Friend, those Gideons may seem nice and tolerant. But I'm assuming that is only because they do not know that you are Orthodox or if they do, they envision it as another obscure sect of Protestantism. Take them to a Divine Liturgy and I can assure you that they will no longer be interested in your friendship let alone accepting you as a member.

Judgmental much?
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2016, 10:07:26 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2016, 11:42:16 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


Selam

Since when are the military and police "clubs?"  You really malign and cheapen what these people do if that's the extent of your regard.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2016, 01:16:55 AM »
All the Gideon's are focused on as an organization is personally passing out/supplying Bibles to hotels/hospitals. They currently stock KJV and the ESV.

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2016, 11:45:18 AM »
Thank you for that information; it is disturbing and unsettling and something to ask about in the discernment process.

I will note that I later had several non-Gideon interactions with the gentleman in question, and it may have been his own defective personality rather than an organizational shortcoming. But he's always colored my perception.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2016, 11:46:39 AM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


Selam

Since when are the military and police "clubs?"  You really malign and cheapen what these people do if that's the extent of your regard.

They are organizations, and as Liza pointed out, the Church is the only organization to which we should belong.

Selam
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2016, 11:49:00 AM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


Selam

Since when are the military and police "clubs?"  You really malign and cheapen what these people do if that's the extent of your regard.

They are organizations, and as Liza pointed out, the Church is the only organization to which we should belong.

Selam

There is little organization in the Church.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2016, 11:53:50 AM »
The Gideons are good people. I knew one when I was a Methodist still, who was a member of the congregation and he would always volunteer to take over the pulpit when my father was sick. He was always ready to do God's work whether it be expected or unexpected. In this day and age, when many kids grow up in the West without even knowing who Adam and Eve are (yes, that ignorant of any Biblical literature), this group in indispensable to the Christian mission of spreading the Gospel. If the Gideons are fine with you being Orthodox, and you want to join, then you should join. If you still have any doubts, perhaps ask your priest or if things get too uncomfortable then withdraw from the organization.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 11:56:20 AM by Rohzek »
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2016, 11:55:04 AM »
I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.


so you aren't a member of any of the Ukrainian clubs out there, are you? Good.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 12:00:06 PM by mike »
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 12:22:02 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


Selam

Since when are the military and police "clubs?"  You really malign and cheapen what these people do if that's the extent of your regard.

They are organizations, and as Liza pointed out, the Church is the only organization to which we should belong.

Selam

Well, this is an appeal of monasticism; it frees you from all ties to secular entities including commercial companies and so on, except, the hegumen and monastery leadership still have to deal with them, but on your behalf.  In Russia the "Posessors" advocated Church control of the social welfare institutions, monasteries and farmland and so on, in the 16th century, if I remember that history right, whereas the non-posessors advocated an ecclesiastical withdrawl from secular affairs; I am kind of in the middle because St. Basil and the other Fathers created a beautiful ecclesiastical welfare system under Church control, with the first modern hospital built by St. Basil in Caesarea, and I believe before the Derg, in Ethiopia, the Church, the Jews and the Muslims each operated their own welfare systems; this I like, but I don't think I advocate the Church owning anything more than what is neccessary to provide these services, and also I think they should be administered where possible by the vestries of local parishes as in England (or local sobors you might say), under Diocesan supervision, and not via a separate church-affiliated agency like most remaining religious-affiliated hospitalw in the US.  But I am not really comfortable with church courts administering all facets of civil law as happened in the Rum Millet during Turkokratia, which is what I think the Posessors wanted. 

I feel like the Non Posessors may have advocated too much withdrawl from secular life; we don't want to be like Gnostics and focus only on prayer, because our Lord also commanded us to feed the sick, clothe the naked and so on. 

In Ethiopia the Church does form an integrated social structure that I think even after the Derg can support local people, for example, the way widows and widowers are traditionally cared for, but in the US outside of a few closely knit communities like the Old Believers of Woodburn, I dont think this is widely available because rhere are so few of us; maybe as a Catholic you could live like that. 

So I am still in discernment on the Gideons, because there are pros and cons; I need to theoughly vet them before attempting to be a full member.  You can be a "friend" and support them and participate in some services for less money.  I need to investigate them closely, and also the American Bible Society.  Technically, there is also the point that distributing the Gospel is an ecclesiastical function and ideally the Orthodox would be doing this; Fr. Lazarus el Antony complained the Coptic Church mainly distrivuted Arabic Bibles equivalent in content to the KJV printed in Lebanon by a Prostestant entity (perhaps the Gideon) and wished the Church would translate copies of an Arabic translation of the Septuagint or a translation from one of the Coptic intermediate translations, so that the Coptic laity would benefit from easy access to the deuterocanonical books.

The lack of the "apocrypha" in Gideon Bibles and some kind of evangelical sounding words in the inset of some raise my eyebrows a bit, so I need to approach this cautiously and also look at the American Bible Society.  I think the Gideons or groups like them are most needed in prisons where computers or tablets like the iPad arent allowed.  There is also the American Bible Society.

A Pan-Orthodox Bible Society that would distribute the OSB or the EOB and prayer books to prisoners would be cool, if one does not already exist.

I like the guys who I have breakfest with, but ... I am going to take this slowly, and I appreciate and value the feedback of all the members who contributed.

Please pray for me, a sinner.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 12:48:37 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


Selam

Since when are the military and police "clubs?"  You really malign and cheapen what these people do if that's the extent of your regard.

This is a point; I respect pacifists, and I am willing to be a martyr, but I would rather strongly prefer it if my mother, who is Orthodox, or my friends, many of whom are not Christian, do not fall victim to terrorist attacks or other violence.  Because humans are sinful, because we continue to follow the example of Cain and murder our brothers, we need people to protect us.

Gebre, I suggest you consider watching Dragnet, Adam-12 and Emergency! by Jack Webb, who was a Roman Catholic altar boy, and a somewhat pious Christian all his life, not a perfect man, not a saint, he divorced at least once as was common and died of a heart attack probably caused by all the cigarettes he smoked (and advertised on the radio and TV in the fifties, before the harmful effects were discovered).    the Dragnet Episode "The Big Little Baby Jesus" also known as "The Christmas Story" is very moving.  In general these shows depict realistically the lives of police and emergency services workers and are based on real events; they were clearly the inspiration for COPS, but being re-enactments, are not voyeuristic.  Emergency! also helped promote the idea of firefighters being trained as paramedics, saving the professional fire departments in California and other states from going to volunteer fire departments, and saving millions of lives, because, as some of you may remember or have read, in the 1970s ambulance drivers werent usually highly trained paramedics; they just loaded the patient in and rushed them to the hospital as fast as possible.  Fire departments could respond faster and provide initial stabilization, and later the ambulance companies or Fire Department run ambulances got very good at providing preliminary care en route, so we now have "Mobile Intensive Care Units" which in the UK even have doctors (in London, there are NHS doctors on motorcycles who respond to cardiac arrest victims).

So lets say you are right about Christians not being police or military, and watching Adam 12 and Dragnet does not change your mind.  OK, fair enough.  We submit to violence and turn the other cheek; I dont mind doing that but I dont really want to turn a blind eye to the suffering of other people as that seems un Christian.  Yet surely, you might argue, we could let the Jews, the Sikhs and so on do it; they care great deal about security, the Sikhs in particular tend to be trustworthy and friendly towards Christian, and we can let them do the jobs that need violence.  But, considering that there are, every year, fewer and fewer Christian hospitals, practically no Orthodox hospitals in the US, and no Orthodox fire or ambulance companies (although there are in Europe the Catholic St. Johns Ambulance and Knights of Malta Ambulance services); some states allow and promote volunteer ambulance companies; I would love to volunteer for a St. Basil's Ambulance or St. Luke's Ambulance and think its a swell idea (seriously).

 But what about the fire brigade?  Has the Church ever been solely responsible for fighting fires and dealing with disasters?  Can we even dare attempt such a feat without cooperating with people of other beliefs?  I do not believe our Saviour Jesus condones allowing fires to burn down people's homes, and I do not think in the US or Britain at least the Orthodox Church could be the fire brigade, with the possible exception of a few isolated parts of Oregon and Alaska.  In Eastern Europe or much of Ethiopia, that is another matter.  But surely, the fire departments in the US or UK could not do their job without Christians and without non-Christians as there are insufficent numbers of either to do the work alone...are you really going to say an Orthodox Christian should not join the fire brigade and help save lives together with their brothers who have not yet chosen to follow our Saviour?
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 01:17:40 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

+ 1

And I would include political parties, the fraternal order of police, and the military in this list as well.


Selam

Since when are the military and police "clubs?"  You really malign and cheapen what these people do if that's the extent of your regard.

They are organizations, and as Liza pointed out, the Church is the only organization to which we should belong.

Selam

So all those faithful of the Roman Empire who served in her armies should have  not joined?
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 02:36:34 PM »
I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.


so you aren't a member of any of the Ukrainian clubs out there, are you? Good.

Other than Church related ones...I am not.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 02:45:12 PM »
I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.


so you aren't a member of any of the Ukrainian clubs out there, are you? Good.

Other than Church related ones...I am not.


Congratulations on consistency. Not, that it has any sense whatsoever.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2016, 08:49:04 PM »

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you, but to me it does.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2016, 09:18:03 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

That's what my heterodox upbringing taught as well, so maybe it's not as uncommon a principle as some here think.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2016, 09:19:28 PM »
I'm not a member of any formal club or organization, but I attribute that more to my dislike of people as opposed to any moral position.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2016, 09:30:31 PM »

Why join the Gideons?

What's with the  need to join all these organizations?

I was always taught not to join any club or organization...no sororities, societies, etc.

Only the Church.

That's what my heterodox upbringing taught as well, so maybe it's not as uncommon a principle as some here think.

Its a pious principle that functions well in close (not injerently closed, many are quitemopen, but "close" in the sense of cohesion) communities, like Mennonites in parts of the US, Old Believers in Woodburn, Aleut Orthodox in Alaska, and to a fairly large degree, a lot of the ethnic Orthodox communities both in the "old country" and the diaspora.

Living in a small town with just a tiny EO parish and another tiny OO parish, which do not even have the liturgy every Sunday, makes this more difficult, because the number of Orthodox in total would probably fit into a single railway carriage or motorcoach, and we dont actually know each other all that well.

Add to that being a Conwertsy who often has to miss services to take care of his mother, and theres no way I can do that, right now, because the Church here isnt big enough.  God willing, we will soon move to a better place with a large Orthodox community and be able to participate with intensity in the living community of the family of pious and faithful Christians.  In fact in another thread I intend to ask for suggestions on towns with a high Orthodox population that offer that in the US and UK, where we have domicile rights.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2016, 09:55:02 PM »
I'm not a member of any formal club or organization, but I attribute that more to my dislike of people as opposed to any moral position.

Maybe you should start up the Trisagion Club, where YOU are the only member.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2016, 10:03:08 PM »
I think the point being missed here is one of function.

Any church groups that are centered around helping others, feeding the hungry, keeping ones culture and so forth, are no less a -fraternal- organization than a group that meets at the local school to help the hungry.

They are not 'The Church', which is centered around services and partaking of communion.

They are para-church organizations, not The Church.

so joining in and participating in such things is truly no different then participating in an entirely secular but non mystical (ie masonic etc...) group.
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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2016, 11:08:44 PM »
I have read some Orthodox cririticism of this entity, but I wanted to know what the overall consensus is as I am considering joining if they will admit me as an Orthodox; Ive been attending and rather enjoying their breakfasts

I think the consensus is that the somehow secret Holy Bibles into hotel rooms, and distribute them at college campuses. I, too, would like to more about this very secretive society.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Horses are animals." - Gebre Menfes Kidus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2016, 11:22:04 PM »
Its a pious principle that functions well in close (not injerently closed, many are quitemopen, but "close" in the sense of cohesion) communities, like Mennonites in parts of the US, Old Believers in Woodburn, Aleut Orthodox in Alaska, and to a fairly large degree, a lot of the ethnic Orthodox communities both in the "old country" and the diaspora.

And actually, I find myself fully agreeing with you on this. Sadly, as I do think culture and community are huge parts of God's plan of salvation.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Gideons
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2016, 11:25:06 PM »
What you really need is a woman.

I saw this in Quotable Quotes, but it should probably also be in Notable Edifying Posts.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy