Author Topic: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?  (Read 5175 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2016, 01:17:29 PM »
I was raised by this guy:


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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2016, 01:22:52 PM »
Good work. You write English very well.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2016, 01:24:37 PM »
Oh, thanks. :)
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2016, 02:43:34 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.


I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yes, maybe we could be more patient, and understanding to Raylight, I know I could do a lot better in this respect, it wired in person we all wouldn't be at each other throats, compared to the internet ???

I appreciate your support guys  :D

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2016, 06:45:48 PM »
Raylight is one of my favorite forumers. He adds interest.
God bless!

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2016, 08:00:35 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yep.   As I considered Raylight and his comments - I have to also consider what he has revealed about himself to us here - and indeed - he does deserve some patience and understanding.

On the flip side - I hope that Raylight's encounters here allow him (as well as the bulk of us - including yours truly) to reconsider - or consider very carefully how we approach our discussions on this board.    My initial reply was intended to prompt Raylight to reflect on his presuppositions and/or understanding of "loyalty."   In doing so it has allowed me to also reflect upon my own.

In respect to my response to Raylight and the original subject of the board I'd offer the following;

1)  Many of us who have borne the brunt of our countries policies at home and abroad and have actively sacrificed are touchy about the subject of "loyalty."   Many of us feel abandoned by our fellow citizens for whom it is very easy to speak about "loyalty" in abstract terms.   Loyalty is displayed in concrete sacrifice...not in words.   My experience is that once the average person experiences any amount of pain and suffering that tests their "loyalty" - their concept of loyalty shifts to allow them to maintain comfort.  Anyone can say they are "loyal."   Few are willing to back it up.  Having said that - for those of us that feel this way, it is really our problem to overcome - not Raylight's or our fellow citizens.   But the subject of "loyalty" as a veteran is a touchy one for me - and I apologize to Raylight for having let myself be triggered and drawn into what I would consider youthful and idealistic notions of love of country.   I should have taken this in to account before replying.   I hope that Raylight will accept my apology for "jumping down his throat" as it were.

2)  On the subject of "loyalty" to country.   This is an ethical quagmire.   Loyalty to one's country - in and of itself - is not a virtue.  One must be loyal to many other things as well - God, one's family, one's neighbors - the downtrodden and abused.   Very often loyalty to country is antithetical to these other loyalties.   We are constantly in a battle to balance these to the best of our ability.   Many Germans were loyal to their country - and not to the Nazi party.   Nonetheless, they contributed to not only the demise of non Germans - but ultimately also to their own country.   My ancestors were fiercely "loyal" to their "country" - and died to defend an economy based on race based slavery.   Their "loyalty" was misapplied.   I have been loyal to my country and my comrades in arms.   This does not negate the harm that I have also seen done by both.

All of this has impact on the presuppositions of the question by the OP.   In respect to what I've observed of "ethnic" Orthodox (mostly Greek) - they are justifiably proud of their heritage - but are "loyal" to their adopted countries - for whatever good or ill that brings.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 08:02:48 PM by Onesimus »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2016, 09:02:14 PM »
Raylight is one of my favorite forumers. He adds interest.

He definitely adds.
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Offline EmperorConstantine

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2016, 10:15:57 AM »
what is the measure of "loyalty?"   

This can be a bit complicated to answer. But I would understand loyalty as the person's attachment to the country, a person that seeks to build the country, that no matter how much he/she may disagree with the current state, that he/she considers him/herself to be part of the land and the people.

At least the person doesn't bash her own country for the sake of defending another because it shares her religious beliefs. That because her country is not Eastern Orthodox, then she will not stand with her "heterodox" country.
I've not posted on this board in years, but as one who is currently on active duty in the Navy, I will be honest with you: I am loyal to this country and to the military, but not necessarily the politics that direct her.  On that front, since it is an election year, it primarily comes down to whom I, the voter, believe will do a better job in supporting the military.  That matter is between myself and whoever the bureaucrat is that counts my vote when such a time comes.

Any issue of perceived "disloyalty" from the view of the US towards any Orthodox Christians could easily be swayed if some who put their ethnicity before the Church would either be removed from power or join the military.  There are only half a dozen Orthodox chaplains, if that, in the Navy.  We need more.  You have a good Orthodox chaplain who serves admirably not only as a priest, but also a chaplain and you will have many who will no longer question the loyalty of the Orthodox just by that priest's mere good example.  I am not a good example of an Orthodox Christian, therefore I don't parade that fact around like an Evangelical Jesus Freak; more importantly in my Roman Catholic upbringing I was taught that religion is a private matter.

I've heard that above the University of Notre Dame's chapel there is a sign that reads, "God, country and Notre Dame".  I think if more people adopted that outlook, but tweeked it to, "God, country and <insert local area here>" and put their current country over that of their ancestors than we would not need to have this discussion.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2016, 10:41:47 AM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2016, 02:53:43 PM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.

I have been saying the Pledge of Allegiance for 60 years.

I actually can't see what led to the original premise.  A large amount of the Orthodox in the US are Greek and until recently (which for me means 1967 and the US government's un-American support of the Greek Junta). Greece has been closely aligned with the US, starting with  Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim II support of the Northern State's fight against slavery in 1862 and continued with Greece fighting with Americans in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the first Gulf war and sided with the US in the Cold War.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2016, 02:39:32 PM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.

I have been saying the Pledge of Allegiance for 60 years.

I actually can't see what led to the original premise.  A large amount of the Orthodox in the US are Greek and until recently (which for me means 1967 and the US government's un-American support of the Greek Junta). Greece has been closely aligned with the US, starting with  Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim II support of the Northern State's fight against slavery in 1862 and continued with Greece fighting with Americans in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the first Gulf war and sided with the US in the Cold War.

That fascinating about the support of the Northern States concerning slavery by the Ecumenical Patriarchate Joachim II, where can I learn about this. This is new news to me.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2016, 03:00:14 PM »
Raylight is one of my favorite forumers. He adds interest.

I appreciate that, and I must say that you're one of my favorite as well. I value your contributions, and if there is one good reason for not giving up on this forum is you and other members like you.  :)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2016, 03:18:18 PM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.

I have been saying the Pledge of Allegiance for 60 years.

I actually can't see what led to the original premise.  A large amount of the Orthodox in the US are Greek and until recently (which for me means 1967 and the US government's un-American support of the Greek Junta). Greece has been closely aligned with the US, starting with  Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim II support of the Northern State's fight against slavery in 1862 and continued with Greece fighting with Americans in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the first Gulf war and sided with the US in the Cold War.

That fascinating about the support of the Northern States concerning slavery by the Ecumenical Patriarchate Joachim II, where can I learn about this. This is new news to me.

Found this:

http://orthodoxhistory.org/2015/04/27/ecumenical-patriarch-opposes-american-slavery-in-1862/
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2016, 03:32:18 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2016, 03:39:46 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2016, 03:42:13 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yep.   As I considered Raylight and his comments - I have to also consider what he has revealed about himself to us here - and indeed - he does deserve some patience and understanding.

On the flip side - I hope that Raylight's encounters here allow him (as well as the bulk of us - including yours truly) to reconsider - or consider very carefully how we approach our discussions on this board.    My initial reply was intended to prompt Raylight to reflect on his presuppositions and/or understanding of "loyalty."   In doing so it has allowed me to also reflect upon my own.

In respect to my response to Raylight and the original subject of the board I'd offer the following;

1)  Many of us who have borne the brunt of our countries policies at home and abroad and have actively sacrificed are touchy about the subject of "loyalty."   Many of us feel abandoned by our fellow citizens for whom it is very easy to speak about "loyalty" in abstract terms.   Loyalty is displayed in concrete sacrifice...not in words.   My experience is that once the average person experiences any amount of pain and suffering that tests their "loyalty" - their concept of loyalty shifts to allow them to maintain comfort.  Anyone can say they are "loyal."   Few are willing to back it up.  Having said that - for those of us that feel this way, it is really our problem to overcome - not Raylight's or our fellow citizens.   But the subject of "loyalty" as a veteran is a touchy one for me - and I apologize to Raylight for having let myself be triggered and drawn into what I would consider youthful and idealistic notions of love of country.   I should have taken this in to account before replying.   I hope that Raylight will accept my apology for "jumping down his throat" as it were.

2)  On the subject of "loyalty" to country.   This is an ethical quagmire.   Loyalty to one's country - in and of itself - is not a virtue.  One must be loyal to many other things as well - God, one's family, one's neighbors - the downtrodden and abused.   Very often loyalty to country is antithetical to these other loyalties.   We are constantly in a battle to balance these to the best of our ability.   Many Germans were loyal to their country - and not to the Nazi party.   Nonetheless, they contributed to not only the demise of non Germans - but ultimately also to their own country.   My ancestors were fiercely "loyal" to their "country" - and died to defend an economy based on race based slavery.   Their "loyalty" was misapplied.   I have been loyal to my country and my comrades in arms.   This does not negate the harm that I have also seen done by both.

All of this has impact on the presuppositions of the question by the OP.   In respect to what I've observed of "ethnic" Orthodox (mostly Greek) - they are justifiably proud of their heritage - but are "loyal" to their adopted countries - for whatever good or ill that brings.

I'm aware of the struggles the veterans face in the United State and also in Canada. It is one of the things that anger me, whenever I hear of homeless veterans. For example, on campus, every time the army set a table, the angry left-wing students come around with their flyers objecting to the existence of the arm forces, and you can not imagine the anger I filled with.

You are right btw, who knows, maybe my bragging about "loyalty" will jump out of the window the minute I'm asked to sacrifice my comfort, and this is why I actually asked one of the moderators to lock or delete the thread if possible, because I realized that I'm in some way being self-righteous and thinking I have the right to ask people about their loyalty. And I can't but agree with you also on the point that loyalty can be harmful if it is used the wrong way. 

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2016, 03:42:51 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2016, 03:49:37 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2016, 03:54:55 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.


Well this is also an anecdote...with no proof what the Church would have gone and done...and also no proof of what St. Seraphim would have done either. The implication that someone felt a certain way who is not here to clarify, is hearsay.   

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2016, 03:58:17 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.


Well this is also an anecdote...with no proof what the Church would have gone and done...and also no proof of what St. Seraphim would have done either. The implication that someone felt a certain way who is not here to clarify, is hearsay.   

I absolutely agree.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.

I would not say Motovilov's crazed rant could be fairly framed as representing "Moscow."
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2016, 04:30:31 AM »
The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Ken Burns documentary The Civil War briefly mentions the emancipation of the serfs of Russia during the time period, your response brought that to memory.

I didn't realize anybody in Russia would have sympathy for the confederacy, but then again it is not surprising.

On the broader topic, it seems obvious to me that Orthodox Christians can be loyal Americans.  The Orthodox understanding of Church and state is similar enough to how mainline Protestants, and even some conservative Protestants (who still retain the "Two Governances" doctrine), think of the distinctions between Church and civil life.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 04:33:25 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2016, 05:17:29 PM »
Raylight, where have you read that Western countries are suspicious of their Orthodox-believing citizens and visa-holders? I'm sure you would not just start a rumor of such magnitude.

Please answer the question, or leave the thread in peace. I don't have time for childish shenanigans.

However, here is a book I read some of it, and it is about Eastern Orthodox in Canada, and there was a paragraph about the relation between Eastern Orthodox and The West, especially during the Cold War. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-East-Fr-Myroslaw-Tataryn/dp/2895071675

The author Fr. Myroslav Tataryn is a Ukrainian Cathoic priest in Canada not a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  I have the book some where in a box but I don't remember reading anything in it about a conflict between Eastern Orthodox "and The West, especially during the Cold War."  Or about loyalty to Canada.  cabn you please quote the passage and page in question.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2016, 09:33:43 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)
Russia vigiorously supported the Union, which led to the spread of Orthodoxy further in the US-the Czar sent a number of warships to dock in Union ports, and the chaplains on them served San Francisco and New York and brought the isolated parish in New Orleans to the attention of the Church authorities in the Old World.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2016, 09:36:48 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.
No, they were both on the right side of the issue.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Opus118

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2016, 01:21:34 AM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)
Russia vigiorously supported the Union, which led to the spread of Orthodoxy further in the US-the Czar sent a number of warships to dock in Union ports, and the chaplains on them served San Francisco and New York and brought the isolated parish in New Orleans to the attention of the Church authorities in the Old World.

Do you have a  reference source for this? Although you do often exaggerate about Fort Ross, I do not have reason to doubt your statement. I visit Ft Ross yearly (two weeks from now) and this will provide a new question to the state park rangers during their talk.

Also, their are a lot of Russian, Ukranians, and Byelorussians at my campsite, all are there in conjunction with their evangelical church. I find it disturbing.  If I purchase a fake long beard will it be easier to convert them? What biblical text should I cite, your the apologist? I am not prepared for this, but I think I should be a little bit irritating now that I am knowledgeable about what is going on at the birthplace of American Orthodoxy.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom