Author Topic: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?  (Read 5165 times)

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Raylight

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Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« on: July 01, 2016, 05:09:02 PM »
Are Eastern Orthodox loyal to their countries in the West or do they tend to dislike their country because of the religious differences they have with the majority of people? This question is, unfortunately, asked to Muslims many times and was popular to be asked of Catholics in the early 20th century in America, and I think it is time to ask Eastern Orthodox, if they are American/Canadian/British/Dutch/French first or do they tend to affiliate themselves and loyalty to countries that share their religious beliefs?

I understand the question may be offensive to some members, but in the light of recent threads here and my experience in the Greek Orthodox parish a year ago I can't help but always question if someone who is Eastern Orthodox is loyal to Canada/America/Britain...etc  I’m sure many members here are loyal and passionate about their countries and I’m aware of many Eastern Orthodox who helped build Canada and the United States, but I wonder if converts to Eastern Orthodoxy started to bring a new wave of anti-West sentiment, maybe because they hate the West and see Eastern Orthodoxy as a way to disaffiliate themselves from this “heterodox culture” called West.


PS: This is a well-known Eastern Orthodox forum, and I believe thousands visit it and read what we write here, and I'm certain some visitors leave the forum and have some ideas of Eastern Orthodoxy based on what they see here. That may not be the logical thing to do, but in the 21 century, that is the way it is ;)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:14:06 PM by Raylight »

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2016, 05:17:37 PM »
what is the measure of "loyalty?"   



Offline ialmisry

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2016, 05:25:47 PM »
^exactly
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Raylight

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 05:26:39 PM »
what is the measure of "loyalty?"   

This can be a bit complicated to answer. But I would understand loyalty as the person's attachment to the country, a person that seeks to build the country, that no matter how much he/she may disagree with the current state, that he/she considers him/herself to be part of the land and the people.

At least the person doesn't bash her own country for the sake of defending another because it shares her religious beliefs. That because her country is not Eastern Orthodox, then she will not stand with her "heterodox" country.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:29:52 PM by Raylight »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2016, 05:29:50 PM »
If you ask me, I've grown more disillusioned the degree of a person's attachment to a culture or country, as if it equates one's mission in life, i.e. faith.  Therefore, I would prefer the word "thankful" rather than "loyal".
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:30:44 PM by minasoliman »
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Raylight

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 05:31:47 PM »
If you ask me, I've grown more disillusioned with a person's attachment to a culture or country, as if it equates one's mission in life, i.e. faith.  Therefore, I would prefer the word "thankful" rather than "loyal".

That is okay, and you can replace the word "loyal" with "thankful, pleased, engaged".

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 05:33:17 PM »
Well, not "pleased" either, just thankful.  I'm thankful with what I have and what I'm in, but I'm not necessarily loyal, proud, or pleased.  I'm willing simply, as an Orthodox Christian, to try to be a light to others for something that transcends culture and nation.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 05:35:10 PM »
Raylight, where have you read that Western countries are suspicious of their Orthodox-believing citizens and visa-holders? I'm sure you would not just start a rumor of such magnitude.
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Raylight

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 05:36:21 PM »
Raylight, where have you read that Western countries are suspicious of their Orthodox-believing citizens and visa-holders? I'm sure you would not just start a rumor of such magnitude.

Please answer the question, or leave the thread in peace. I don't have time for childish shenanigans.

However, here is a book I read some of it, and it is about Eastern Orthodox in Canada, and there was a paragraph about the relation between Eastern Orthodox and The West, especially during the Cold War. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-East-Fr-Myroslaw-Tataryn/dp/2895071675
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:44:14 PM by Raylight »

Raylight

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 05:38:37 PM »
Well, not "pleased" either, just thankful.  I'm thankful with what I have and what I'm in, but I'm not necessarily loyal, proud, or pleased.  I'm willing simply, as an Orthodox Christian, to try to be a light to others for something that transcends culture and nation.

That also makes sense. :)

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2016, 05:50:26 PM »
Well...for the record...I'm a convert to Orthodoxy.    I served 16 years in the military and spent  7 of those years deployed, three in War.   I worked for 4 years with the U.S. State Dept in diplomatic security.   I've sacrifice health, finances, mental and physical well being and much, much more.   Many of my friends have died...some in war...some by their own hands at home dealing with what our country has asked us to do.   All of this for a country I often ( and increasingly ) disagree with.   I objected intensly to the Iraq war...but signed back up in the midst of it after having been out for some time.

In terms of loyalty, I don't know where that puts me in your eyes....(as if I cared) but I find your post both objectionable and silly.  (I.e. It reads to me like childish shenanigans). 

By the measure of my "loyalty", how "loyal" are you?   

"Loyalty" is relative.


« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:58:34 PM by Onesimus »

Raylight

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2016, 05:59:54 PM »
Well...for the record...I'm a convert to Orthodoxy.    I served 16 years in the military and spent  7 of those years deployed, three in War.   I worked for 4 years with the U.S. State Dept in diplomatic security.   I've sacrifice health, finances, mental and physical well being and much, much more.   Many of my friends have died...some in war...some by their own hands at home dealing with what our country has asked us to do.   All of this for a country I often ( and increasingly ) disagree with.   I objected intensly to the Iraq war...but signed back up in the midst of it after having been out for some time.

In terms of loyalty, I don't know where that puts me in your eyes....(as if I cared) but I find your post both objectionable and silly.  (I.e. It reads to me like childish shenanigans). 

By the measure of my "loyalty", how "loyal" are you?   

all things are relative.

If it was a "silly" question, then why did you answer it? I would expect someone with your experience and wisdom to ignore a "silly" question asked by someone you don't care about. Anyway, even though I'm not American, I thank you for your service to your country. May God guard you and reward your sacrifice for others. And may your friends rest in eternal peace.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 06:00:50 PM by Raylight »

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2016, 06:02:12 PM »
I would expect you to stop baiting people.   And you're 100% right, I should never have engaged with you.  My mistake.   


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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2016, 07:00:55 PM »
I can tell you the average Brazilian Orthodox are Monarchists  with a deep appreciation for Western culture and some longing for the golden times of this country, maybe for the fact many of us (me not included) are former RC traditionalists, so at least here it's a yes.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2016, 07:11:44 PM »
Raylight, where have you read that Western countries are suspicious of their Orthodox-believing citizens and visa-holders? I'm sure you would not just start a rumor of such magnitude.

Please answer the question, or leave the thread in peace. I don't have time for childish shenanigans.

However, here is a book I read some of it, and it is about Eastern Orthodox in Canada, and there was a paragraph about the relation between Eastern Orthodox and The West, especially during the Cold War. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-East-Fr-Myroslaw-Tataryn/dp/2895071675

Raylight,

if i may, I would like to address the above a bit.  But from a slightly different perspective than you might be thinking about.

My mother, was born in America of two ethnically Russian parents (who themselves were born in America right at the turn of the century), who had an ethnically Russian name, home culture and so forth, grew up and was in high school during the 60's.

She had people call her names, accuse her of being a spy and other generally unpleasant sorts of things, just because she was identifiable as 'Russian'

My family are not EO. 

So this issue of the EO and the West, during the cold war, is not an EO issue....it is a USSR cold war issue.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2016, 07:46:42 PM »
Are Eastern Orthodox loyal to their countries in the West or do they tend to dislike their country because of the religious differences they have with the majority of people?

You defined "loyalty" as follows:

...I would understand loyalty as the person's attachment to the country, a person that seeks to build the country, that no matter how much he/she may disagree with the current state, that he/she considers him/herself to be part of the land and the people.

At least the person doesn't bash her own country for the sake of defending another because it shares her religious beliefs. That because her country is not Eastern Orthodox, then she will not stand with her "heterodox" country.

My sense of EO in this country is that

a) they are "attached" to their local communities (i.e., town, city, region) and, by extension, to the country;
b) they do seek to "build the country" the way just about every other citizen does this--by engagement in those local communities;
c) EO pray corporately for the city and country in which they dwell, and for the governing authorities and defence forces of those places, far more than just about every other Christian denomination;
d) because of the above, they consider themselves part of "the land and the people" even if they have disagreements with the current state of the country;
e) because their religion has an international presence, they may be more aware of the political, social, economic, and cultural situation of other nations in ways other Americans may not be, and so their opinions are more nuanced, which can look like "bashing one's own country for the sake of defending another" to people who are unable or unwilling to think seriously.

Quote
I understand the question may be offensive to some members, but in the light of recent threads here and my experience in the Greek Orthodox parish a year ago I can't help but always question if someone who is Eastern Orthodox is loyal to Canada/America/Britain...etc

You can't help always questioning, that's true. 

Quote
I’m sure many members here are loyal and passionate about their countries and I’m aware of many Eastern Orthodox who helped build Canada and the United States, but I wonder if converts to Eastern Orthodoxy started to bring a new wave of anti-West sentiment, maybe because they hate the West and see Eastern Orthodoxy as a way to disaffiliate themselves from this “heterodox culture” called West.

While that's possible, it's not like "the West" doesn't have its own ways of shooting itself in the foot.  I don't consider myself "anti-West", but it's hard to defend "the West" much of the time, and a lot of that has nothing to do with religion.   

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Knowing that, you should be more careful with your insinuations. 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 07:48:27 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2016, 07:53:26 PM »
Sometimes the Orthodox can never win, The Churches in Russia, Greece, the Middle East, Serbia, etc. get accused of "nationalism" and "collaboration with the state" yet here in the West, Orthodox are accused of being "un-patriotic", "anti-american", " agents of foreign nations", darned if you do, darned if you don't ::sigh:: it ironic because because we pray for our Armed Forces, civil authorities, and the President during the civil Authorities even if we disagree with the State policies. There even people in our Church who serve the military, and fought in the war's this nation has waged, despite war being necessary at times, but always evil, this past Memorial Day, Father even prayed for those who died in Vietnam, Korea, and all the war's our Country fought in. Also it should be noted many in Orthodox Churches are married to "Westerners", so this topic a mute point.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2016, 07:57:33 PM »
Sometimes the Orthodox can never win, The Churches in Russia, Greece, the Middle East, Serbia, etc. get accused of "nationalism" and "collaboration with the state" yet here in the West, Orthodox are accused of being "un-patriotic", "anti-american", " agents of foreign nations", darned if you do, darned if you don't

That's a fair point.  It would be interesting to hear from Raylight what the limits of "loyalty to country" is.  What is the minimum requirement?  What is too much?  How does one express one's loyalty?  Et cetera.
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Raylight

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 08:17:48 PM »
Chillax you'll. ;)

It is not only Eastern Orthodox that I asked this question to, believe me! I ask my Liberal friends many times this question too, because deep in my mind I have a difficult time believing that Liberals are loyal or proud of their countries, enough to look at the Gallup survey published a few days ago, which found that Liberals in America are among the least to be proud of their country. Liberals are also among the most to associate bad characters to Americans such as "Greedy, Violent, and Arrogant" according to another survey conducted by Pew Research and also published a few days ago.

Don't forget that I'm a Middle Eastern, so nationalism (In its good form, not the racist ugly one) is in my blood one way or another. I can't help it folks, some of my Middle Eastern characteries gonna sneak out here and there.

Is it wrong of me to act like a policeman asking people about their loyalty to their countries? Heck yeah! But I gotta be bad some way.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2016, 08:20:56 PM »
I suppose some are and some aren't. For me personally, I'm not nationalistic, but I'm thankful to be able to live somewhere relatively safe. If by loyal you mean I would not consider selling highly classified government secrets to foreign dignitaries, then yes, I am loyal since I would avoid doing that. If by loyal you mean I should enthusiastically agree with all the laws that are passed, then no, I am not loyal at all.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2016, 08:22:53 PM »
I suppose some are and some aren't. For me personally, I'm not nationalistic, but I'm thankful to be able to live somewhere relatively safe. If by loyal you mean I would not consider selling highly classified government secrets to foreign dignitaries, then yes, I am loyal since I would avoid doing that. If by loyal you mean I should enthusiastically agree with all the laws that are passed, then no, I am not loyal at all.

Good points, where do we draw the line from patriotic to nationalistic, in this conversation.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2016, 08:26:32 PM »
In my mind, patriotism is a love of one's country. Nationalism is a hatred of everyone else's.

I wouldn't say I'm particularly patriotic. I am a Christian first and foremost. Any love I have for my country is the result of my belief that I should love others, be obedient to laws that don't contradict my faith, and honor and pray for our political leaders. Beyond that, you aren't going to find me out in my front yard waving an American flag around and singing the national anthem, even if it is July 4th weekend. I'm definitely not nationalistic which I find to be rather abhorrent.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 08:27:03 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2016, 08:28:56 PM »
Chillax you'll. ;)

It is not only Eastern Orthodox that I asked this question to, believe me! I ask my Liberal friends many times this question too, because deep in my mind I have a difficult time believing that Liberals are loyal or proud of their countries, enough to look at the Gallup survey published a few days ago, which found that Liberals in America are among the least to be proud of their country. Liberals are also among the most to associate bad characters to Americans such as "Greedy, Violent, and Arrogant" according to another survey conducted by Pew Research and also published a few days ago.

Don't forget that I'm a Middle Eastern, so nationalism (In its good form, not the racist ugly one) is in my blood one way or another. I can't help it folks, some of my Middle Eastern characteries gonna sneak out here and there.

Is it wrong of me to act like a policeman asking people about their loyalty to their countries? Heck yeah! But I gotta be bad some way.

My liberal father voluntarily served in the Army from 1960-1963.

Try to survey more people.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2016, 08:30:40 PM »
Chillax you'll. ;)

It is not only Eastern Orthodox that I asked this question to, believe me! I ask my Liberal friends many times this question too, because deep in my mind I have a difficult time believing that Liberals are loyal or proud of their countries, enough to look at the Gallup survey published a few days ago, which found that Liberals in America are among the least to be proud of their country. Liberals are also among the most to associate bad characters to Americans such as "Greedy, Violent, and Arrogant" according to another survey conducted by Pew Research and also published a few days ago.

Don't forget that I'm a Middle Eastern, so nationalism (In its good form, not the racist ugly one) is in my blood one way or another. I can't help it folks, some of my Middle Eastern characteries gonna sneak out here and there.

Is it wrong of me to act like a policeman asking people about their loyalty to their countries? Heck yeah! But I gotta be bad some way.

My liberal father voluntarily served in the Army from 1960-1963.

Try to survey more people.
I think he is looking more at national polls for broader trends as opposed to anecdotal stories. 
God bless!

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2016, 08:32:27 PM »
In my mind, patriotism is a love of one's country. Nationalism is a hatred of everyone else's.

I wouldn't say I'm particularly patriotic. I am a Christian first and foremost. Any love I have for my country is the result of my belief that I should love others, be obedient to laws that don't contradict my faith, and honor and pray for our political leaders. Beyond that, you aren't going to find me out in my front yard waving an American flag around and singing the national anthem, even if it is July 4th weekend. I'm definitely not nationalistic which I find to be rather abhorrent.

I do find myself slowly coming around to that view, after all we should look forward to the kingdom to come, not any kingdoms or governments on Earth.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 08:32:47 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2016, 08:41:41 PM »
In my mind, patriotism is a love of one's country. Nationalism is a hatred of everyone else's.

I usually use "patriotism" to mean a general love/pride of one's country, while I use "nationalism" to mean the social and political expression of patriotism. Just a personal approach I guess.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 08:41:57 PM by Nephi »

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2016, 09:19:55 PM »
It would depend on whether I think the forces attempting to conquer my country will destroy the Church faster or slower than the current government...;)
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2016, 09:34:45 PM »
I think we can safely blame the Empress of Great Britain Elizabeth II for that.

Out of curiosity, where in the Middle East were you from, Raylight?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 09:35:03 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2016, 10:39:21 PM »
I understand the question may be offensive to some members, but in the light of recent threads here and my experience in the Greek Orthodox parish a year ago I can't help but always question if someone who is Eastern Orthodox is loyal to Canada/America/Britain...etc  I’m sure many members here are loyal and passionate about their countries and I’m aware of many Eastern Orthodox who helped build Canada and the United States, but I wonder if converts to Eastern Orthodoxy started to bring a new wave of anti-West sentiment, maybe because they hate the West and see Eastern Orthodoxy as a way to disaffiliate themselves from this “heterodox culture” called West.

That's definitely true of a lot of converts to fundamentalist Islam.

While there are a very small number of vocal Orthodox converts for whom this is the case (e. g., Matthew "Death To America" Heimbach), it does seem to be a very rare phenomenon. Although when it does occur, a lot of the people in question seem to be influenced by Integral Traditionalist ideas. The founders of that movement believed the West was decadent or "degenerate"* and has been so for centuries. Thus, many of them such as Rene Guenon converted to Islam, or else embraced various forms of Eastern occultism. A few of them more recently have become Orthodox. Despite its anti-Western attitudes, that movement (paradoxically) is also closely linked with white supremacy, ethno-nationalism and xenophobia. Since America as a nation is consciously not founded upon ethnicity and is a melting pot, this means adherents (such as Heimbach) tend not to regard it as a "real" nation, and hence they tend to be anti-American even if they live here (while they hold a much higher regard for "old world" societies).

This apparently contradictory mix of characteristics is not new; Hitler believed in the superiority of the German race but didn't care much for German Christian culture, and was heavily influenced by Hinduism, Shinto and other non-Western ideas, even if he didn't like non-Western people at all (with the exception of the Japanese of course).

*Why is it that when I hear or read someone using that word, I half expect them to extend their right arm and hand straight out in the air?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 10:45:06 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2016, 10:43:10 PM »
I can tell you the average Brazilian Orthodox are Monarchists  with a deep appreciation for Western culture and some longing for the golden times of this country, maybe for the fact many of us (me not included) are former RC traditionalists, so at least here it's a yes.

How does being a monarchist in Brazil work? Portugal's monarchy was abolished in 1910. Do Brazilian monarchists want their country to join the British Commonwealth, or perhaps enter into a similar relationship with the Kingdom of Spain (which at least is Iberian, although not Portuguese-speaking)?

I personally wouldn't mind restoring the Hawaiian monarchy; it's the USA's only indigenous monarchy. I don't think joining the British Commonwealth is an option; that train has already left the station. But I could see a restored Hawaiian monarch being "America's monarch" too, even if only symbolically.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2016, 10:46:54 PM »
I think one thing that helps separate the "good" sort of patriotism from the "ugly" type of nationalism is the presence or absence of a little self-deprecating humor.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2016, 10:47:29 PM »
Brazil had its own monarchs from the breakdown of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves in 1821 to the Republican coup d'état in 1889. There are still claimants to the throne and a referendum was even taken in 1993 to bring them back.

I like the idea of a Hawaiian Monarchy, at least in the model that there are several micro-monarchs (yet officially recognised) across Africa. I'd enjoy the Brazilian throne to be restabilished but no claimant has been 10% of a shadow of what Emperor Pedro II and Princess Isabel were, so I believe there to be a lot of Romantism in our Monarchist movement, in the sense that they ty to see these great figures in their descendants.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 10:52:54 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2016, 01:11:27 AM »
As I said earlier, I didn't intend this thread to be an insult to Eastern Orthodox, it is just something I was curious about and this is why I asked the question. After rereading my original post I found that the words used could be misinterpreted as someone trying to say something under the table, but with all honesty, it was me just curious to know what Eastern Orthodox think and/or feel about their countries in the West. Recently there was a thread about Russia and its laws and several members expressed their praise to a certain law and put down the West and went too far in their insults, I was puzzled at how could that be and wondered if Eastern Orthodoxy is the one behind such feelings or maybe something unrelated. Where I come from, if someone insults their country, they lose respect. For example, if a Syrian said something bad and put down her country in front of an Iraqi person, the latter will lose respect to the former, even if the Iraqi agrees with what the Syrian said. In a way, if someone is okay with insulting his country, then it is someone that should not be trusted no matter what. And even though I try as much as I can to not let such ideas influence me, I can't help it sometimes. Therefore, when I see some members here insult their country, I can't help it but wonder why and question the integrity of the person, and that in itself is not right for me to do. Someone like me and gone through what I've gone through, I know that one’s country can actually harm and make one’s life hell on earth, meanwhile, a different country stands by you and supports you and treats you as a human being. 

Please forgive me, anyone, who was insulted by the wording of my question. The question was meant to see if what I see in the forum is related to Eastern Orthodoxy or it is an individualistic thing.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2016, 01:32:14 AM »
I think what people are reacting to on that over thread, including myself, is a general feeling against Protestant missionaries poaching or sheep stealing of the faithful in lands that are already Christian, that often backed by the West, which increasingly is Modernist, and opposed to these nations like Russia's culture, and history. It hardly a hatred of the West in general, many of us in the West have family here, we're born here, etc..

 As far as your comment as A Syrian insulting his nation in front of a Iraqi, not to be snarky, but didn't Syrians and Iraqis in recent history, up until the recent crisis, didn't get along, since both wanted to be leaders of the Arab world?

 Back to that law in Russia, it not perfect, yet they had a very rough history if you look at the invasions, and occupations by heterodox Christians, and non-Christians, so they tend to react to something like foreign missionaries and foreign religions pretty rough, yet hey there still around.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 01:54:08 AM by seekeroftruth777 »

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2016, 01:55:49 AM »
Thank you raylight.

.






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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2016, 02:03:32 AM »
Thank you raylight.

.

Thank you for understanding and accepting my apology  :)

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2016, 02:06:01 AM »
I think what people are reacting to on that over thread, including myself, is a general feeling against Protestant missionaries poaching or sheep stealing of the faithful in lands that are already Christian, that often backed by the West, which increasingly is Modernist, and opposed to these nations like Russia's culture, and history. It hardly a hatred of the West in general, many of us in the West have family here, we're born here, etc..

 As far as your comment as A Syrian insulting his nation in front of a Iraqi, not to be snarky, but didn't Syrians and Iraqis in recent history, up until the recent crisis, didn't get along, since both wanted to be leaders of the Arab world?

 Back to that law in Russia, it not perfect, yet they had a very rough history if you look at the invasions, and occupations by heterodox Christians, and non-Christians, so they tend to react to something like foreign missionaries and foreign religions pretty rough, yet hey there still around.

The Syrian and Iraqi were just examples. :)

As for Russia, you're probably right. The more I read about things there the more I realize things are complicated that we can't really figure them out unless we have a great deal of knowledge about the country, its history, and culture.


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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2016, 02:15:30 AM »
Chillax you'll. ;)

It is not only Eastern Orthodox that I asked this question to, believe me! I ask my Liberal friends many times this question too, because deep in my mind I have a difficult time believing that Liberals are loyal or proud of their countries, enough to look at the Gallup survey published a few days ago, which found that Liberals in America are among the least to be proud of their country. Liberals are also among the most to associate bad characters to Americans such as "Greedy, Violent, and Arrogant" according to another survey conducted by Pew Research and also published a few days ago.

Don't forget that I'm a Middle Eastern, so nationalism (In its good form, not the racist ugly one) is in my blood one way or another. I can't help it folks, some of my Middle Eastern characteries gonna sneak out here and there.

Is it wrong of me to act like a policeman asking people about their loyalty to their countries? Heck yeah! But I gotta be bad some way.

My liberal father voluntarily served in the Army from 1960-1963.

Try to survey more people.
LOL.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2016, 12:09:42 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 12:10:39 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2016, 12:17:57 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yes, maybe we could be more patient, and understanding to Raylight, I know I could do a lot better in this respect, it wired in person we all wouldn't be at each other throats, compared to the internet ???

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2016, 12:42:45 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

I think a lot of us would be avoiding a lot of others if OC.net amounted to a breakroom. Instead, by whatever internet alchemy, when we see something better ignored we feel impelled openly to react to it.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2016, 12:51:00 PM »
What is "to amount to a breakroom"?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2016, 01:01:09 PM »
What is "to amount to a breakroom"?

Trapeza then? Public park?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2016, 01:03:53 PM »
Oh, you're actually talking about finding a break room to conversate in person, I thought this was some exotic English expression.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2016, 01:14:07 PM »
Oh, you're actually talking about finding a break room to conversate in person, I thought this was some exotic English expression.

I try to work on my syntax, so it's closer to normal, and I think I've improved a lot over the years, but the fact is I was raised by second-rate Victorian authors the way some are said to have been raised by wolves.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2016, 01:17:29 PM »
I was raised by this guy:


"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2016, 01:22:52 PM »
Good work. You write English very well.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2016, 01:24:37 PM »
Oh, thanks. :)
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2016, 02:43:34 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.


I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yes, maybe we could be more patient, and understanding to Raylight, I know I could do a lot better in this respect, it wired in person we all wouldn't be at each other throats, compared to the internet ???

I appreciate your support guys  :D

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2016, 06:45:48 PM »
Raylight is one of my favorite forumers. He adds interest.
God bless!

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2016, 08:00:35 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yep.   As I considered Raylight and his comments - I have to also consider what he has revealed about himself to us here - and indeed - he does deserve some patience and understanding.

On the flip side - I hope that Raylight's encounters here allow him (as well as the bulk of us - including yours truly) to reconsider - or consider very carefully how we approach our discussions on this board.    My initial reply was intended to prompt Raylight to reflect on his presuppositions and/or understanding of "loyalty."   In doing so it has allowed me to also reflect upon my own.

In respect to my response to Raylight and the original subject of the board I'd offer the following;

1)  Many of us who have borne the brunt of our countries policies at home and abroad and have actively sacrificed are touchy about the subject of "loyalty."   Many of us feel abandoned by our fellow citizens for whom it is very easy to speak about "loyalty" in abstract terms.   Loyalty is displayed in concrete sacrifice...not in words.   My experience is that once the average person experiences any amount of pain and suffering that tests their "loyalty" - their concept of loyalty shifts to allow them to maintain comfort.  Anyone can say they are "loyal."   Few are willing to back it up.  Having said that - for those of us that feel this way, it is really our problem to overcome - not Raylight's or our fellow citizens.   But the subject of "loyalty" as a veteran is a touchy one for me - and I apologize to Raylight for having let myself be triggered and drawn into what I would consider youthful and idealistic notions of love of country.   I should have taken this in to account before replying.   I hope that Raylight will accept my apology for "jumping down his throat" as it were.

2)  On the subject of "loyalty" to country.   This is an ethical quagmire.   Loyalty to one's country - in and of itself - is not a virtue.  One must be loyal to many other things as well - God, one's family, one's neighbors - the downtrodden and abused.   Very often loyalty to country is antithetical to these other loyalties.   We are constantly in a battle to balance these to the best of our ability.   Many Germans were loyal to their country - and not to the Nazi party.   Nonetheless, they contributed to not only the demise of non Germans - but ultimately also to their own country.   My ancestors were fiercely "loyal" to their "country" - and died to defend an economy based on race based slavery.   Their "loyalty" was misapplied.   I have been loyal to my country and my comrades in arms.   This does not negate the harm that I have also seen done by both.

All of this has impact on the presuppositions of the question by the OP.   In respect to what I've observed of "ethnic" Orthodox (mostly Greek) - they are justifiably proud of their heritage - but are "loyal" to their adopted countries - for whatever good or ill that brings.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 08:02:48 PM by Onesimus »

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2016, 09:02:14 PM »
Raylight is one of my favorite forumers. He adds interest.

He definitely adds.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2016, 10:15:57 AM »
what is the measure of "loyalty?"   

This can be a bit complicated to answer. But I would understand loyalty as the person's attachment to the country, a person that seeks to build the country, that no matter how much he/she may disagree with the current state, that he/she considers him/herself to be part of the land and the people.

At least the person doesn't bash her own country for the sake of defending another because it shares her religious beliefs. That because her country is not Eastern Orthodox, then she will not stand with her "heterodox" country.
I've not posted on this board in years, but as one who is currently on active duty in the Navy, I will be honest with you: I am loyal to this country and to the military, but not necessarily the politics that direct her.  On that front, since it is an election year, it primarily comes down to whom I, the voter, believe will do a better job in supporting the military.  That matter is between myself and whoever the bureaucrat is that counts my vote when such a time comes.

Any issue of perceived "disloyalty" from the view of the US towards any Orthodox Christians could easily be swayed if some who put their ethnicity before the Church would either be removed from power or join the military.  There are only half a dozen Orthodox chaplains, if that, in the Navy.  We need more.  You have a good Orthodox chaplain who serves admirably not only as a priest, but also a chaplain and you will have many who will no longer question the loyalty of the Orthodox just by that priest's mere good example.  I am not a good example of an Orthodox Christian, therefore I don't parade that fact around like an Evangelical Jesus Freak; more importantly in my Roman Catholic upbringing I was taught that religion is a private matter.

I've heard that above the University of Notre Dame's chapel there is a sign that reads, "God, country and Notre Dame".  I think if more people adopted that outlook, but tweeked it to, "God, country and <insert local area here>" and put their current country over that of their ancestors than we would not need to have this discussion.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2016, 10:41:47 AM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.
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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2016, 02:53:43 PM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.

I have been saying the Pledge of Allegiance for 60 years.

I actually can't see what led to the original premise.  A large amount of the Orthodox in the US are Greek and until recently (which for me means 1967 and the US government's un-American support of the Greek Junta). Greece has been closely aligned with the US, starting with  Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim II support of the Northern State's fight against slavery in 1862 and continued with Greece fighting with Americans in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the first Gulf war and sided with the US in the Cold War.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2016, 02:39:32 PM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.

I have been saying the Pledge of Allegiance for 60 years.

I actually can't see what led to the original premise.  A large amount of the Orthodox in the US are Greek and until recently (which for me means 1967 and the US government's un-American support of the Greek Junta). Greece has been closely aligned with the US, starting with  Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim II support of the Northern State's fight against slavery in 1862 and continued with Greece fighting with Americans in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the first Gulf war and sided with the US in the Cold War.

That fascinating about the support of the Northern States concerning slavery by the Ecumenical Patriarchate Joachim II, where can I learn about this. This is new news to me.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2016, 03:00:14 PM »
Raylight is one of my favorite forumers. He adds interest.

I appreciate that, and I must say that you're one of my favorite as well. I value your contributions, and if there is one good reason for not giving up on this forum is you and other members like you.  :)

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2016, 03:18:18 PM »
I took a loyalty oath this morning.

I have been saying the Pledge of Allegiance for 60 years.

I actually can't see what led to the original premise.  A large amount of the Orthodox in the US are Greek and until recently (which for me means 1967 and the US government's un-American support of the Greek Junta). Greece has been closely aligned with the US, starting with  Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim II support of the Northern State's fight against slavery in 1862 and continued with Greece fighting with Americans in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and the first Gulf war and sided with the US in the Cold War.

That fascinating about the support of the Northern States concerning slavery by the Ecumenical Patriarchate Joachim II, where can I learn about this. This is new news to me.

Found this:

http://orthodoxhistory.org/2015/04/27/ecumenical-patriarch-opposes-american-slavery-in-1862/
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2016, 03:32:18 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2016, 03:39:46 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2016, 03:42:13 PM »
I think many of us get a bit sensitive when we read "Started by Raylight". :P  He deserves some patience and understanding, however.

Yep.   As I considered Raylight and his comments - I have to also consider what he has revealed about himself to us here - and indeed - he does deserve some patience and understanding.

On the flip side - I hope that Raylight's encounters here allow him (as well as the bulk of us - including yours truly) to reconsider - or consider very carefully how we approach our discussions on this board.    My initial reply was intended to prompt Raylight to reflect on his presuppositions and/or understanding of "loyalty."   In doing so it has allowed me to also reflect upon my own.

In respect to my response to Raylight and the original subject of the board I'd offer the following;

1)  Many of us who have borne the brunt of our countries policies at home and abroad and have actively sacrificed are touchy about the subject of "loyalty."   Many of us feel abandoned by our fellow citizens for whom it is very easy to speak about "loyalty" in abstract terms.   Loyalty is displayed in concrete sacrifice...not in words.   My experience is that once the average person experiences any amount of pain and suffering that tests their "loyalty" - their concept of loyalty shifts to allow them to maintain comfort.  Anyone can say they are "loyal."   Few are willing to back it up.  Having said that - for those of us that feel this way, it is really our problem to overcome - not Raylight's or our fellow citizens.   But the subject of "loyalty" as a veteran is a touchy one for me - and I apologize to Raylight for having let myself be triggered and drawn into what I would consider youthful and idealistic notions of love of country.   I should have taken this in to account before replying.   I hope that Raylight will accept my apology for "jumping down his throat" as it were.

2)  On the subject of "loyalty" to country.   This is an ethical quagmire.   Loyalty to one's country - in and of itself - is not a virtue.  One must be loyal to many other things as well - God, one's family, one's neighbors - the downtrodden and abused.   Very often loyalty to country is antithetical to these other loyalties.   We are constantly in a battle to balance these to the best of our ability.   Many Germans were loyal to their country - and not to the Nazi party.   Nonetheless, they contributed to not only the demise of non Germans - but ultimately also to their own country.   My ancestors were fiercely "loyal" to their "country" - and died to defend an economy based on race based slavery.   Their "loyalty" was misapplied.   I have been loyal to my country and my comrades in arms.   This does not negate the harm that I have also seen done by both.

All of this has impact on the presuppositions of the question by the OP.   In respect to what I've observed of "ethnic" Orthodox (mostly Greek) - they are justifiably proud of their heritage - but are "loyal" to their adopted countries - for whatever good or ill that brings.

I'm aware of the struggles the veterans face in the United State and also in Canada. It is one of the things that anger me, whenever I hear of homeless veterans. For example, on campus, every time the army set a table, the angry left-wing students come around with their flyers objecting to the existence of the arm forces, and you can not imagine the anger I filled with.

You are right btw, who knows, maybe my bragging about "loyalty" will jump out of the window the minute I'm asked to sacrifice my comfort, and this is why I actually asked one of the moderators to lock or delete the thread if possible, because I realized that I'm in some way being self-righteous and thinking I have the right to ask people about their loyalty. And I can't but agree with you also on the point that loyalty can be harmful if it is used the wrong way. 

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2016, 03:42:51 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2016, 03:49:37 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2016, 03:54:55 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.


Well this is also an anecdote...with no proof what the Church would have gone and done...and also no proof of what St. Seraphim would have done either. The implication that someone felt a certain way who is not here to clarify, is hearsay.   

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2016, 03:58:17 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.


Well this is also an anecdote...with no proof what the Church would have gone and done...and also no proof of what St. Seraphim would have done either. The implication that someone felt a certain way who is not here to clarify, is hearsay.   

I absolutely agree.
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Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.

I would not say Motovilov's crazed rant could be fairly framed as representing "Moscow."
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2016, 04:30:31 AM »
The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Ken Burns documentary The Civil War briefly mentions the emancipation of the serfs of Russia during the time period, your response brought that to memory.

I didn't realize anybody in Russia would have sympathy for the confederacy, but then again it is not surprising.

On the broader topic, it seems obvious to me that Orthodox Christians can be loyal Americans.  The Orthodox understanding of Church and state is similar enough to how mainline Protestants, and even some conservative Protestants (who still retain the "Two Governances" doctrine), think of the distinctions between Church and civil life.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 04:33:25 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2016, 05:17:29 PM »
Raylight, where have you read that Western countries are suspicious of their Orthodox-believing citizens and visa-holders? I'm sure you would not just start a rumor of such magnitude.

Please answer the question, or leave the thread in peace. I don't have time for childish shenanigans.

However, here is a book I read some of it, and it is about Eastern Orthodox in Canada, and there was a paragraph about the relation between Eastern Orthodox and The West, especially during the Cold War. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-East-Fr-Myroslaw-Tataryn/dp/2895071675

The author Fr. Myroslav Tataryn is a Ukrainian Cathoic priest in Canada not a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  I have the book some where in a box but I don't remember reading anything in it about a conflict between Eastern Orthodox "and The West, especially during the Cold War."  Or about loyalty to Canada.  cabn you please quote the passage and page in question.

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2016, 09:33:43 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)
Russia vigiorously supported the Union, which led to the spread of Orthodoxy further in the US-the Czar sent a number of warships to dock in Union ports, and the chaplains on them served San Francisco and New York and brought the isolated parish in New Orleans to the attention of the Church authorities in the Old World.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2016, 09:36:48 PM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Russia already free their Serfs, which seemed to have caused it own problems btw

The two emancipations were playing out almost simultaneously, the global turmoil of which probably explains why the Church of Russia may have been somewhat unmoored on the matter. I have no intention of probing into the politics of the time here, just to point out an interesting anecdote that would seem to have the Church of Russia and the Church of Constantinople yet again taking rather opposite views.

Even back then they always seem on the opposite side of important issues. Well in this case Moscow was wrong, and the Ecumenical Patriarchate was right.
No, they were both on the right side of the issue.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Are Eastern Orthodox christians loyal to their countries?
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2016, 01:21:34 AM »
Meanwhile, there was some churchman who as a young man had associated with St. Seraphim before he fell asleep, who was petitioning the Church of Russia to send spiritual aid to the Confederacy, lest the Blacks give the serfs ideas and turn the Christian world upside-down. (He implied St. Seraphim would have approved, maybe even that he came to him in a vision or something -- I don't recall details -- but I think it's very obvious that he was very wrong about that.)
Russia vigiorously supported the Union, which led to the spread of Orthodoxy further in the US-the Czar sent a number of warships to dock in Union ports, and the chaplains on them served San Francisco and New York and brought the isolated parish in New Orleans to the attention of the Church authorities in the Old World.

Do you have a  reference source for this? Although you do often exaggerate about Fort Ross, I do not have reason to doubt your statement. I visit Ft Ross yearly (two weeks from now) and this will provide a new question to the state park rangers during their talk.

Also, their are a lot of Russian, Ukranians, and Byelorussians at my campsite, all are there in conjunction with their evangelical church. I find it disturbing.  If I purchase a fake long beard will it be easier to convert them? What biblical text should I cite, your the apologist? I am not prepared for this, but I think I should be a little bit irritating now that I am knowledgeable about what is going on at the birthplace of American Orthodoxy.
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