Author Topic: Good article on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and their numbers in Ukraine  (Read 1119 times)

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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Tragic, while the Russian invasion isn't good, has divded Orthodoxy in Ukraine, and leaves the UGCC open to poach the Orthodox on behalf of Rome, is it justified for the Ukrainian people to go under a non-canonical Church? Arent these folks cutting themselves off from Canonical Global Orthodoxy? Just a couple concerns of mine, it  would be tragic to see a huge swath of Ukraine go into Schism, or turn to Rome. Anyways prayers for a peaceful resolution for all parties, and prayers that Ukraine isn't carved up.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:39:08 AM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Tragic, while the Russian invasion isn't good, has divded Orthodoxy in Ukraine, and leaves the UGCC open to poach the Orthodox on behalf of Rome, is it justified for the Ukrainian people to go under a non-canonical Church? Arent these folks cutting themselves off from Canonical Global Orthodoxy? Just a couple concerns of mine, it  would be tragic to see a huge swath of Ukraine go into Schism, or turn to Rome. Anyways prayers for a peaceful resolution for all parties, and prayers that Ukraine isn't carved up.

What Russian invasion? If Russia wanted to invade it would be over and done with. Currently, there is a Civil War going on between Ukrainian Ultra-nationalists and Ukrainians that want to protect their Russian Heritage. As to the schismatics...schismatics are gonna schism it is that simple. Either they will return to the church or they will remain outside of it.
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Offline wgw

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I can understand the motivations of those joining the Kyiv Patriarchate, but I lament it; the Patriarch of Moscow is not inherently anti-Ukrainian; Ukraine is tje birthplace of Russian culture but also acquired its own cultural identity, ao it is a complex issue, but it seems to me it would be nice if the autonomy of the canonical Church of the Ukraine and the canonical MP-appointed Metropolitan of Kiev could be respected.

That said, the MP could solve this issue by writing a Tomos of Autocephaly for their Metropolis of Kiev, wnich would create a canonical Church of the Ukraine, outflank the ambitions of the Phanar and delegitmize completely the non-canonical Metropolitans (of which there are two, I believe; schism breeds schism).

It would be nice however if we could move towards either an Anglican idea whereby every country is an autocephalous "province" or alternately in the case of the national churches, do more to de-politicize and de-nationalize them, so that they can be viewed with the same relative conceptual neutrality as the ancient Patriarchates.
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Offline RaphaCam

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I couldn't care less about the patriotic feelings between Ukraine and Russia (two countries I have no cultural bonds with) and I see why all the distaste, but there is absolutely no reason of faith to split from the Orthodox Church, just national feelings. Splitting from our holy communion over turf is a much more sinful and destructive form of the heresy of phyletism.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:25:46 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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I can understand the motivations of those joining the Kyiv Patriarchate, but I lament it; the Patriarch of Moscow is not inherently anti-Ukrainian; Ukraine is tje birthplace of Russian culture but also acquired its own cultural identity, ao it is a complex issue, but it seems to me it would be nice if the autonomy of the canonical Church of the Ukraine and the canonical MP-appointed Metropolitan of Kiev could be respected.

That said, the MP could solve this issue by writing a Tomos of Autocephaly for their Metropolis of Kiev, wnich would create a canonical Church of the Ukraine, outflank the ambitions of the Phanar and delegitmize completely the non-canonical Metropolitans (of which there are two, I believe; schism breeds schism).

It would be nice however if we could move towards either an Anglican idea whereby every country is an autocephalous "province" or alternately in the case of the national churches, do more to de-politicize and de-nationalize them, so that they can be viewed with the same relative conceptual neutrality as the ancient Patriarchates.

Yes there two, even possibly three non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches, as I think there two different UAOC Churches, but Ukrainans on here can correct me if I am wrong, anyways if Moscow was smart, your idea of a Tomos of Autocephalcy would be smart, and cut the legs right out from the E.P. as far as Ukraine is concerned.

As far as the Anglican model goes, IDK if that smart, just look at TEC here in the states doing there own thing, regardless of what the COE says, or does over issues like Blessing of Homosexual unions, and having Gay marriages. How do we know that wouldn't happen to a Orthodox Church that defies Holy Tradition, the model your proposing?

Offline Minnesotan

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I can understand the motivations of those joining the Kyiv Patriarchate, but I lament it; the Patriarch of Moscow is not inherently anti-Ukrainian; Ukraine is tje birthplace of Russian culture but also acquired its own cultural identity, ao it is a complex issue, but it seems to me it would be nice if the autonomy of the canonical Church of the Ukraine and the canonical MP-appointed Metropolitan of Kiev could be respected.

That said, the MP could solve this issue by writing a Tomos of Autocephaly for their Metropolis of Kiev, wnich would create a canonical Church of the Ukraine, outflank the ambitions of the Phanar and delegitmize completely the non-canonical Metropolitans (of which there are two, I believe; schism breeds schism).

It would be nice however if we could move towards either an Anglican idea whereby every country is an autocephalous "province" or alternately in the case of the national churches, do more to de-politicize and de-nationalize them, so that they can be viewed with the same relative conceptual neutrality as the ancient Patriarchates.

Yes there two, even possibly three non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches, as I think there two different UAOC Churches, but Ukrainans on here can correct me if I am wrong, anyways if Moscow was smart, your idea of a Tomos of Autocephalcy would be smart, and cut the legs right out from the E.P. as far as Ukraine is concerned.

As far as the Anglican model goes, IDK if that smart, just look at TEC here in the states doing there own thing, regardless of what the COE says, or does over issues like Blessing of Homosexual unions, and having Gay marriages. How do we know that wouldn't happen to a Orthodox Church that defies Holy Tradition, the model your proposing?

When Eritrea became independent of Ethiopia, the Eritrean church was immediately given its independence as well. Had that not occurred, perhaps there might have been a similar schism in Eritrea to the one now occurring in Ukraine? The OO definitely made a wise decision, which sadly the EO haven't done (at least not yet). By the same token, I don't see why the Serbian church should have jurisdiction over areas outside Serbia (with the obvious exception of diaspora areas like the US, where the jurisdictions already overlap anyway).
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Offline RaphaCam

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It would help a lot of souls to emancipate churches in countries going through such awful schisms, such as Ukraine or Macedonia, this is true, and I agree with Minnesotan that the Eritrean issue was resolved wisely by both OO's and EC's. However, if I lived one of these countries, I wouldn't sit and wait. Better to be under a bishop with a potentially negative view on my nation than one that deliberately severed the Church. We sometimes hear cases of people with personal problems with their bishops, so why take national tensions so seriously that we leave? How much didn't the fathers advert against schism? How hard didn't the Nicene Fathers work so we could all be clearly one? Not saying groups outside the Eastern Orthodox communion are graceless, just that unity is imperative. Well, maybe one could argue intercommunion was a much looser thing in ancient times, but likewise these loose bodies in communion weren't in open schism as these national uncanonical bodies go.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 07:29:54 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Dominika

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It would help a lot of souls to emancipate churches in countries going through such awful schisms, such as Ukraine or Macedonia, this is true, and I agree with Minnesotan that the Eritrean issue was resolved wisely by both OO's and EC's. However, if I lived one of these countries, I wouldn't sit and wait. Better to be under a bishop with a potentially negative view on my nation than one that deliberately severed the Church. We sometimes hear cases of people with personal problems with their bishops, so why take national tensions so seriously that we leave? How much didn't the fathers advert against schism? How hard didn't the Nicene Fathers work so we could all be clearly one? Not saying groups outside the Eastern Orthodox communion are graceless, just that unity is imperative. Well, maybe one could argue intercommunion was a much looser thing in ancient times, but likewise these loose bodies in communion weren't in open schism as these national uncanonical bodies go.

The case of Macedonia is different from the Ukrainian one, as over the decades there wasn't canonical Church in this teritorry! The canonical Church there (archbishopric of Ohrid, which status is autonomy under Serbian Patriarchate) was established in 2002, and it has maybe a few thousands believers, no more. And most of its dicoeses are vacante, as there are only 4 bishops, and one of tchem used to be under arrest a long time, and now he's more frequent guest in Serbia, Russia and otehr countires than being in Macedonia.
And in Ukraine the canonical Church has a big numer of bielievers, it's a high perecentage.
So, you can't just say taht the whole nation/country, that's Macedonia, lives without Sacraments. In my housing estate there are 2 Macedonians guys and they normally atend my parish, they don't care (or even: don't know) their own Church is not canonical.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Weird, I had no idea! But before their now uncanonical jurisdiction split apart, it was part from the wider communion, wasn't it?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Weird, I had no idea! But before their now uncanonical jurisdiction split apart, it was part from the wider communion, wasn't it?
It's complicated; in very ancien time (XI century) there was recognised Archbishopric of Ohrid. Then Macedonian theritory was under Ecumenical Patrarcahte. Then it was part of Bulgarian exarchate (then evolved into patriarchate, as a kind of restoration of Bulgarian Patriarchate after a few centuries) that was non-canonical over a few decades! And then (before WW2) Macedonian parishes were taken by Serbian Church because of the creation of Yugoslavia. So, even earlier, they weren't actually a part of the wider communion ;) And ofc, it was only because of politics.
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