Author Topic: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 25268 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2016, 01:02:59 PM »
I couldn't find anything regarding Dionysius IV's nickname, but I came across a much stranger anecdote on a former Patriarch:

Quote
Dionysius reigned with the protection of Mara till the end of 1471, when his opponents accused him of having been converted to Islam for a short time and of being consequently circumcised. A synod was gathered by his opponents to judge him. Despite revealing his penis so that all present could verify that he was not circumcised, he was deposed and replaced by Symeon I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_I_of_Constantinople

Edit: His title is a mistranslation. "Mouselimes" was actually an Ottoman administrative position he took before being Patriarch, "müsellim". Greek for "Muslim" is "mousoulmanos". http://asiaminor.ehw.gr/forms/fLemmaBodyExtended.aspx?lemmaID=7793
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 01:19:10 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2016, 01:15:11 PM »
Quote
Dionysius reigned with the protection of Mara till the end of 1471, when his opponents accused him of having been converted to Islam for a short time and of being consequently circumcised. A synod was gathered by his opponents to judge him. Despite revealing his penis so that all present could verify that he was not circumcised, he was deposed and replaced by Symeon I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_I_of_Constantinople

Can't say I expected to read something like that today.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2016, 01:31:14 PM »
Quote
Dionysius reigned with the protection of Mara till the end of 1471, when his opponents accused him of having been converted to Islam for a short time and of being consequently circumcised. A synod was gathered by his opponents to judge him. Despite revealing his penis so that all present could verify that he was not circumcised, he was deposed and replaced by Symeon I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_I_of_Constantinople

Can't say I expected to read something like that today.

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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2016, 09:12:32 PM »



"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it.

Good God! I think he'd do less harm in Constantinople!
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2016, 12:18:36 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2016, 12:36:10 AM »
When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
What about Russians?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2016, 12:37:01 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
Speaking only for myself, this isn't a "Greek" thing. I have nothing against the ethnically Greek Orthodox - but Met Elpidophoros has made some statements in the past that show that he has an overblown view of the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch (along with a high-falutin' interpretation of Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon {if I agreed with such views as he espouses, I would have become a Roman Catholic and been under the "real" Pope!}). I have issues with Met Elpidophoros and him alone and could name more than a few Greek hierarchs I think would make a better Ecumenical Patriarch (or Archbishop of America). 

Also, the Greeks are not the largest population of the Orthodox in the world. Going by nation, Russia has that honor - the Greek Church making up only 10% or so of Russia's. Going by ethnicity, Russia still outnumbers the Greeks. They DO have the largest Orthodox population in America, but America, while being in the world, hardly makes up its entirety.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2016, 12:44:16 AM »
You two are correct. 60 million Russians > 25 million Greeks, in Eastern Orthodoxy worldwide, due to the recent surge of Orthodoxy in Russia.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2016, 12:45:11 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2016, 12:45:46 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2016, 12:47:10 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000


Very humorous.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2016, 12:48:42 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000


Very humorous.

Not humorous.  Just the truth.  Even if you add the overseas holdings, your assertion was factually incorrect.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2016, 12:56:15 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000


Very humorous.

Not humorous.  Just the truth.  Even if you add the overseas holdings, your assertion was factually incorrect.

I'm not denying it, I am pointing out the very humorous way in which you went about making the point (and I didn't even point out the silly lumping of "non-Greeks" as though they are the Russians). You made your points in an eccentric way indeed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2016, 01:02:12 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2016, 01:06:06 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2016, 01:07:13 AM »
You made your points in an eccentric way indeed.

As an American Orthodox Christian, I am, by definition, an eccentric. 
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2016, 01:10:43 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I suggest you spend more quality time among Greeks.  Then you can get the facts and lose the hope.    ;D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 01:11:00 AM by FatherGiryus »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2016, 01:20:04 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2016, 01:47:11 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2016, 01:58:18 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
Porter, what does that have to do with the topic?

The Metropolitan's ecclesiology is very worrisome for an Orthodox Christian.
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2016, 02:02:42 AM »
Glad to!

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread ((Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.
Irate? Perhaps. Fanciful? Not at this time.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:04:12 AM by FormerReformer »
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2016, 02:07:50 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
Porter, what does that have to do with the topic?

The Metropolitan's ecclesiology is very worrisome for an Orthodox Christian.

It is the topic. Post after post of dour exaggeration, bald assertion, and hints at conspiracy. Point out to me anything official and substantive here.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2016, 02:50:39 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
Porter, what does that have to do with the topic?

The Metropolitan's ecclesiology is very worrisome for an Orthodox Christian.

It is the topic. Post after post of dour exaggeration, bald assertion, and hints at conspiracy. Point out to me anything official and substantive here.
Where is the "dour exaggeration, bald assertion, and hints at conspiracy?" You seem to be the most fanciful writer here, Porter. FormerReformer is being pretty straightforward.

Take it:

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/01/met-elpidophoros-of-bursa-issues-strong.html

It has been scrubbed from the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in all languages, save Greek.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:51:13 AM by Antonis »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2016, 03:16:49 AM »
"Scrubbed," eh. And this dirty deed of HAH presages, what, Orthodox Armageddon? I await more of the prophetic perceptions of the wise men in this thread.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2016, 03:28:24 AM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline hecma925

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2016, 03:29:34 AM »
 :laugh:
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2016, 10:28:46 AM »
Meddling in the affairs of the Church?

How are our comments here meddling in anything?  Do any of us have the power to change anything?  You overestimate the influence of the OCNet.  I would be that less than 1% of English-speaking Orthodox Christians even know this forum exists.  Personally, I only know of one or two occasions when hierarchs have actually known about something posted here.

However, we are dealing with a topic that 'meddles' in our affairs: specifically, the ecclesiology represented in Met. Elpidophoros' essay on behalf of his Patriarchate, which argues for a type of 'papal primacy.'  That is a 'meddling' when one claims authority over the entire Church, because eventually such authority gets exercised.

I suggest that if we want to accuse others of a 'false sense of importance,' we might also want to examine our own.  I think that all of us here have a 'false sense of importance,' and none of us are immune to it.  None.



Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2016, 10:58:51 AM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline hecma925

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2016, 11:15:56 AM »
I AM THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW.  I HAVE HACKED HECMA925'S ACCOUNT TO MEDDLE IN YOUR AFFAIRS, OCNET.  HOW DO YOU LIKE IT?  MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX OR ELSE YOU WILL BE CUT OFF (OR DEPOSED IN THE CASE OF CLERGY).



DO NOT MAKE ME ANGRY.  DO NOT EVEN THINK OF COMMENTING ABOUT THIS COUNCIL.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2016, 12:44:47 PM »



"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it.

Good God! I think he'd do less harm in Constantinople!
a genius move in the tradition of the troyka of Abp. Stylianos of Australia bringing Abp. Spridon. That worked so well-in bringing us Abp. Demetrios (Many Years!).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2016, 12:46:03 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2016, 12:52:09 PM »
Meddling in the affairs of the Church?

How are our comments here meddling in anything?  Do any of us have the power to change anything?

The fly doesn't have the "power" to change the household, either.

Quote
You overestimate the influence of the OCNet.

That would be very, very difficult to prove, as either way we'd be speaking in infiitesimals. Now, OC.net influence is not germane to my point at all.

I would be that less than 1% of English-speaking Orthodox Christians even know this forum exists.  Personally, I only know of one or two occasions when hierarchs have actually known about something posted here.

Quote
However, we are dealing with a topic that 'meddles' in our affairs: specifically, the ecclesiology represented in Met. Elpidophoros' essay on behalf of his Patriarchate, which argues for a type of 'papal primacy.'  That is a 'meddling' when one claims authority over the entire Church, because eventually such authority gets exercised.

How exactly does it impact you? I think it cannot possibly impact you directly.

Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2016, 12:52:34 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2016, 12:54:20 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
is larger than the number of the Phanar's flock in Istanbul.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2016, 12:57:12 PM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.

No. I will not entirely ignore thread after thread of juvenile dark mutterings against the Church in a public forum of which I'm a member. What strange advice. If you wish to indulge this baser side of your natures in public, you can expect a response. Oh and I'm hurt, hurt to be compared to someone like the Holy Prophet Jeremiah. ::)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2016, 01:01:02 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
is larger than the number of the Phanar's flock in Istanbul.

And negligible (not to mention in a very silly position) compared to the flock throughout America and Western Europe, or compared to the flock under Constantinople's care only two generations ago. You know, I'm sorry being small bothers any poster here, but, on the other hand, you could try not announcing the fact so often.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2016, 01:02:41 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2016, 01:07:37 PM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2016, 01:15:05 PM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement? I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2016, 01:15:35 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

Another humorist among us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2016, 01:20:43 PM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement?

The latter.

Quote
I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.

And what is that? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2016, 01:29:49 PM »
How exactly does it impact you? I think it cannot possibly impact you directly.

I don't know if you know this, but I work for the Church.

It is kind of important to know how the Chain-of-Command operates, if you know what I mean.  I've never had a job where I didn't have to know who was in charge of what.

As an ex-Amish, I'm assuming you've never worked for a corporation before.  So, this might be a foreign concept to you, which I totally get.

However, as a clergyman, it is important to know who defines teachings and how, and who to appeal to when things at a local level get out-of-hand.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2016, 01:58:53 PM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.

No. I will not entirely ignore thread after thread of juvenile dark mutterings against the Church in a public forum of which I'm a member. What strange advice. If you wish to indulge this baser side of your natures in public, you can expect a response. Oh and I'm hurt, hurt to be compared to someone like the Holy Prophet Jeremiah. ::)
Pray for us.

Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement? I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.
This is not our religion.
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2016, 02:24:46 PM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.

No. I will not entirely ignore thread after thread of juvenile dark mutterings against the Church in a public forum of which I'm a member.

You do realize that criticism of one metropolitan  (or even Patriarch) =/= criticism of the Church?

As for the role of the layman you refer to later, it is our duty to cry "Axios" or "Anaxios" in response to those in positions of ecclessial authority in so far as our understanding allows.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:25:22 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2016, 02:32:58 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

"The violent breathing of the Holy Spirit". 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!