Author Topic: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 31978 times)

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Offline Fr.Kaisarios

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It's recently become apparent that the World Orthodoxy is being torn apart by controversy. It is already clear that the Pan-Orthodox Council has become a mere formality and will not bring any significant fruit. Islamic extremists are killing Christians, Islamist authoritarian regimes are threatening freedom of worship for other faiths, taking away their property and even churches.

Against this background, the question of who will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch after His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is being raised more and more frequently in private conversations. And His Eminence Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) is among the most mentioned possible candidates . Will he be able to take responsibility for the fate of Orthodoxy and to solve the problems facing the Phanar (with God's help)? Let's try to evaluate his chances for election.

Indeed, the Pan-Orthodox Council, which was referred by the Ecumenical Patriarch as a historical event and its main achievement, has been criticized by conservatives as well as by modernists. Of course, the very fact of the meeting is a big step forward, but it is necessary to think about whether we will be able to go further and to revive the tradition of conciliarity in the universal scale.
Will next Councils be more meaningful and fruitful? Undoubtedly, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' experience of serving as general secretary of the Holy Synod is priceless, as well as his thorouh familiarity with the hard and elaborate work  on finalizing agenda and development of a clear pastoral vision of the most complex theological and ecclesiological issues.

Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Of course, this is also necessary to populate the Phanar with new excellent clergy who share these ideas and are ready to work tirelessly for the unity of Orthodoxy. There is already a lot of such people in Metropolitan Elpidophoros' inner circle. These are the very faithful people who  will contribute to the prosperity of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and attract new believers from over the world.

It is also necessary to ensure further succession and the highest level of training of the clergy. Of course, I mean the opening of the seminary at the Holy Trinity Monastery on Halki. And  negotiability and  comparative youthfulness of His Eminence are his additional trump cards as a possible Patriarch in this issue. Perhaps, these are qualities that will be decisive since they may be helpful in convincing the Turkish authorities that the EP's activity will be predictable for many decades and won't become a threat to Turkey's national interests.

There's a rumor that the very abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery don't mind to use  patriarchal dignity to make educational process  here - within the walls  that've already become home to him,- finally resumed.

Actually, why not? His Eminence has a rare combination of energy, practical experience, spiritual and theological maturity. I guess he really would be able to protect Orthodoxy and the high position of the Constantinople Patriarchate from all threats and attacks. What do you think about this?

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2016, 03:52:12 PM »
Well, I have no problems with him except his belief in primus sine paribus. That's not historical. It is also based off of the very iffy notion that primacy is a theological necessity and must rest with the bishop. One only has to look at the accepted norms of the Anglo-Saxon Church in Orthodoxy before the Norman invasion to realize how false this notion is. Primacy there laid with lay people, councils of monks, etc. This by no means undermined the necessity of the laying of hands of bishops. However, it does call into question the necessity that a bishop have any form of primacy. As far as I can tell, it isn't theologically dictated, but rather a very common sociological and political norm. Keep in mind that Moscow went on for centuries without a patriarch. If Metropolitan Elpidophoros insists on the primus sine paribus and assumes the EP throne, chances are that he will start a schism and most of Orthodoxy won't follow him.

Other than that, the other qualifications you outlined make him a great candidate.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:13:33 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2016, 04:05:40 PM »
Isa-atha!  Come, Isa! 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:05:53 PM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 04:05:50 PM »
"Primus sine paribus" is wrong and if Met Elpidophoros becomes Patriarch and continues to push this distorted idea he will foment schism. Without a change of heart on this question, Met Elpidophoros will be a disaster.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate's pre-eminence was based on its location at the heart of an empire that doesn't exist anymore. It is now confined to a small neighborhood in Istanbul.

It's time to move on.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:19:54 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2016, 04:11:05 PM »
Assumes there will continue to be an EP. Also why would any single person have the "responsibility for the fate of Orthodox".
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2016, 05:03:47 PM »
The Church already lost one Patriarchate to the "primus sine paribus" theory. Let's hope it won't come to that again.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2016, 05:15:19 PM »
I don't get "primus sine paribus", is it somehow similar to the notion of universal jurisdiction? Why on Earth would someone want some kind of Phanar Papacy today? At least Old Rome tried to disguise it theologically...
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2016, 05:34:50 PM »
I don't get "primus sine paribus", is it somehow similar to the notion of universal jurisdiction? Why on Earth would someone want some kind of Phanar Papacy today? At least Old Rome tried to disguise it theologically...

No we don't need a E.P. Pope, I use to think this was all just silly conspiracy talk, now maybe the Old Calendarists were right all along, that the whole time that the E.P. wanted to become a Greek Catholic Church, not a Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 05:45:49 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 06:06:53 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been involved way too much with the ecumenical movement IMO but the Old Calendarists are rather hasty and exaggerated in their critics to the relationship between the Orthodox Church and the Papacy. HAH has great relations with the CoE as well and no one ever said he would become part of the Anglican Communion. That's all I think I can say without risking sending this topic to the private fora.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 06:10:24 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 06:20:34 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been involved way too much with the ecumenical movement IMO but the Old Calendarists are rather hasty and exaggerated in their critics to the relationship between the Orthodox Church and the Papacy. HAH has great relations with the CoE as well and no one ever said he would become part of the Anglican Communion. That's all I think I can say without risking sending this topic to the private fora.

I would just point out that the Anglican Church does not have 30 million members of the Eastern Rite and Rome does.
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 08:20:48 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 08:26:11 PM »
I could attend a Russian ROCOR parish but its too far away.

But my heart belongs to ROCOR.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2016, 09:13:39 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

No, not really. I mean some of his claims to authority and the jurisdiction tiff between it and Moscow might raise some eyebrows, but beyond that nothing really. What's most concerning are the "binding" claims that the EP has put forth against those who won't attend Crete. That, and the strange theology put forth by his presumed successor.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2016, 10:35:49 AM »

You can't but love this Pope!  #PopeFrancis


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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2016, 12:52:30 PM »
Are you for real?  Or just another made up internet persona with a political / propaganda agenda?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2016, 01:42:05 PM »

You can't but love this Pope!  #PopeFrancis


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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2016, 04:00:14 PM »
Yes he would be wonderful. At last we could have someone to surpass Meletios!
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2016, 06:56:55 PM »
Yes.

Heaven help us.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2016, 06:59:57 PM »
Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals)
IOW HE will bring the Phanar into official heresy and HE as Ethnarch can bring it out of Orthodox Communion into the ranks of heretics with the Vatican and Protestants.
So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" .
The statement of Moscow stands as one of the most eloquent testimonies to Orthodox Ecclesiology, while the barkings of Bursa constitute one of the more convoluted exposition of heresy trying to hide itself and pass off its manifest errors as the Gospel Truth.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:07:41 PM by ialmisry »
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2016, 07:06:47 PM »
The Church already lost one Patriarchate to the "primus sine paribus" theory. Let's hope it won't come to that again.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2016, 07:11:15 PM »

You can't but love this Pope!  #PopeFrancis


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I've actually been to Tamper (it used to have a Lenin Museum), but unfortunately not yet Moscow.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2016, 08:04:52 PM »
It's recently become apparent that the World Orthodoxy is being torn apart by controversy. It is already clear that the Pan-Orthodox Council has become a mere formality and will not bring any significant fruit. Islamic extremists are killing Christians, Islamist authoritarian regimes are threatening freedom of worship for other faiths, taking away their property and even churches.

Against this background, the question of who will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch after His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is being raised more and more frequently in private conversations. And His Eminence Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) is among the most mentioned possible candidates . Will he be able to take responsibility for the fate of Orthodoxy and to solve the problems facing the Phanar (with God's help)? Let's try to evaluate his chances for election.

Indeed, the Pan-Orthodox Council, which was referred by the Ecumenical Patriarch as a historical event and its main achievement, has been criticized by conservatives as well as by modernists. Of course, the very fact of the meeting is a big step forward, but it is necessary to think about whether we will be able to go further and to revive the tradition of conciliarity in the universal scale.
Will next Councils be more meaningful and fruitful? Undoubtedly, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' experience of serving as general secretary of the Holy Synod is priceless, as well as his thorouh familiarity with the hard and elaborate work  on finalizing agenda and development of a clear pastoral vision of the most complex theological and ecclesiological issues.

Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Of course, this is also necessary to populate the Phanar with new excellent clergy who share these ideas and are ready to work tirelessly for the unity of Orthodoxy. There is already a lot of such people in Metropolitan Elpidophoros' inner circle. These are the very faithful people who  will contribute to the prosperity of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and attract new believers from over the world.

It is also necessary to ensure further succession and the highest level of training of the clergy. Of course, I mean the opening of the seminary at the Holy Trinity Monastery on Halki. And  negotiability and  comparative youthfulness of His Eminence are his additional trump cards as a possible Patriarch in this issue. Perhaps, these are qualities that will be decisive since they may be helpful in convincing the Turkish authorities that the EP's activity will be predictable for many decades and won't become a threat to Turkey's national interests.

There's a rumor that the very abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery don't mind to use  patriarchal dignity to make educational process  here - within the walls  that've already become home to him,- finally resumed.

Actually, why not? His Eminence has a rare combination of energy, practical experience, spiritual and theological maturity. I guess he really would be able to protect Orthodoxy and the high position of the Constantinople Patriarchate from all threats and attacks. What do you think about this?

I believe if that His Eminence were to succeed the Ecumenical Patriarch, if he tried to push forward the primus sine paribus agenda you outlined, and in particular attempted to unilaterally take control lf the Orthodox churches in North America and the Diaspora, and unilaterally conclude ecumenical pacts (for example, if he were to unilaterally restore communion with Rome), it is very likely he would wind up like Nestorius.

Based on the precedent set by the Council of Ephesus, any autocephalous archbishop has the authority to convene an ecumenical council for the purpose of deposing any other autocephalous archbishop, and indeed, the convening archbishop appears to have very broad latitude as to rules of procedure and whether or not the accused can even speak in his defense (see Chalcedon, from whoch the Metropolitan of Bursa extrapolates, using Article 28, much of his erroneous primus sine paribus ecclesiology).

If an Ecumenical Patriarch were deposed, by, for example, an ecumenical council convened by Moscow or Antioch, it is interesting to consider, in the absence of an Emperor to enforce the decrees of the council, how easy it would be for his successor to be enthroned.  I expect that if His Eminence did become the Ecumemical Patriarch, and did do the things you imply he ought to do, he would be deposed by a council driven by Moscow (and perhaps led by Antioch, for aesthetic reasons); the Athonite monks and certain conservative factions like the monasteries of Elder Ephrem in GoArch would likely support his deposition and accept his replacement, whereas GoArch, the Finns and non-MP Estonians, and the Russian emigres and Ukrainians in the diaspora under the EP who would otherwise be under Moscow, would probably object to his replacement, and the possibility exists some autocephalous churches, perhaps Jerusalem, Cyprus or Alexandria, might also dissent...however, I am inclined to believe most if not all autocepahlous primates would back his replacement, since taking unilateral action on the assumption of an authority held primus sine paribus is a threat to the authority of every autocephalous Eastern Orthodox church.

So certainly, at least the crown jewell of the EP, Mount Athos, would accept his replacement.  And the offer of autocephaly to the Church of Finland, ACROD, the Church of Estonia (EP) and so on might well be enough to turn the tide against him.  It would be very unwise for any bishop in any country with friendly relations with Russia to oppose a Moscow led council in this manner; they could likewise be deposed and replaced with greater ease.

It shpuld be noted that there would be no happy ending to such a scenario: in both cases where an Ecumenical Council deposed a sitting autocephalous patriarch, a permanent schism resulted. 

~

Theere would be two potential disasters if His Eminence were to become the Ecumenical Patriarch: the nightmarish meccessity of his removal, as outlined above, could well cause a permanent and destructive schism; in addition, unilateral actions on his part based on his perceoved (and erroneous) misconception of his pastoral authority might result in a massive setback in the process of ecumenical reconciliation.  If, for example, he unilaterally restored communion wih Rome, it would be a false communion, like that followimg the latrocinium of the Council of Florence, and it could delay the reunion of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches by centuries.   I pray that the Great Schism will have ended by 2054, but if a future Ecumenical Patriarch sought to end it unilaterally, such an ill-advised power play would very possibly extend it to 3054.  I further believe that it is quite likely the Metropolitan of Bursa might, based on the history of his published academic corpus and public comments, attempt such a move. 

So thus I fear I have to pray that he is not chosen to replace His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years, but that instead the burden of leading the Constantinopolitan church should fall on someone capable of reconciling the hierarchy of the church with the Athonite monastic community and improving the health of the parishes (ACROD, already a part of the EP, might be something of a beacon to be followed in this respect).  Actually, on that basis, I myself would probably endorse Bishop Gregory of the Diocese of Nyassa to serve as the next Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.  His jurisdiction has the highest Sunday attendance of any in the United States, he has, as far as I am aware, no hostility eith Mount Athos, and he is not a member of the Phanariot community, or even Greek, but a Carpatho-Rusyn; most importantly, he has never published any academic papers which elicited immediate pan-Orthodox controversy, so to me at least. he seems, on the basis of diversity and ecclesiastical performance, to be a very well qualified candidate.  Certainly, it is hard to imagine his election leading to a schism, which is more than can be said about the Metropolitan of Bursa.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 08:10:26 PM by wgw »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2016, 09:20:24 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

The EP is not claiming supreme direct universal jurisdiction, so no, it's not papal in that sense. However, it is claiming certain special privileges that are not supported by the canons or tradition, and it is exploiting it s preeminence from its time at the heart of an empire today when that empire is long gone. The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2016, 10:34:22 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

The EP is not claiming supreme direct universal jurisdiction, so no, it's not papal in that sense. However, it is claiming certain special privileges that are not supported by the canons or tradition, and it is exploiting it s preeminence from its time at the heart of an empire today when that empire is long gone. The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.

Indeed; it is also worth mentioning that all of these localities are MP territory.  In the case of China, one could make a hypothetical argument that strictly speaking, it should belong to Antioch, but it was the Russians who built that church, as well as the Korean and Japanese churches, and China never complained.

I believe any special privileges the EP had over "the lands of the Barbarians" were abrogated when autocephalous Patriarchates began being set up in these lands.   This also predated the great schism, so I further believe that provision properly speaking applied to Rome; the Ecumenical Patriarchate is claiming it only because of the schism.

So, consider this dismaying observation: if the Eastern Orthodox communion accepts the Constantinopolitan argument that they alone have jurisdiction in North America, China, and all other "lands of the Barbarians," if reunion with Rome occurred control over the Orthodox churches in those lands would automatically revert to the Roman pontiff, leaving the Church of Constantinople with a portion of Greece, Mount Athos, and a dying community in Stamboul, and not much else.  I for one would not want to see the Ecumenical Patriarchate reduced to such a sorry state.   I am as opposed to those who say the EP is a useless anachronism as I am to the Metropolitan of Bursa and his Phanariopapist ambitions.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2016, 10:46:02 PM »
It's recently become apparent that the World Orthodoxy is being torn apart by controversy. It is already clear that the Pan-Orthodox Council has become a mere formality and will not bring any significant fruit. Islamic extremists are killing Christians, Islamist authoritarian regimes are threatening freedom of worship for other faiths, taking away their property and even churches.

Against this background, the question of who will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch after His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is being raised more and more frequently in private conversations. And His Eminence Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) is among the most mentioned possible candidates . Will he be able to take responsibility for the fate of Orthodoxy and to solve the problems facing the Phanar (with God's help)? Let's try to evaluate his chances for election.

Indeed, the Pan-Orthodox Council, which was referred by the Ecumenical Patriarch as a historical event and its main achievement, has been criticized by conservatives as well as by modernists. Of course, the very fact of the meeting is a big step forward, but it is necessary to think about whether we will be able to go further and to revive the tradition of conciliarity in the universal scale.
Will next Councils be more meaningful and fruitful? Undoubtedly, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' experience of serving as general secretary of the Holy Synod is priceless, as well as his thorouh familiarity with the hard and elaborate work  on finalizing agenda and development of a clear pastoral vision of the most complex theological and ecclesiological issues.

Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Of course, this is also necessary to populate the Phanar with new excellent clergy who share these ideas and are ready to work tirelessly for the unity of Orthodoxy. There is already a lot of such people in Metropolitan Elpidophoros' inner circle. These are the very faithful people who  will contribute to the prosperity of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and attract new believers from over the world.

It is also necessary to ensure further succession and the highest level of training of the clergy. Of course, I mean the opening of the seminary at the Holy Trinity Monastery on Halki. And  negotiability and  comparative youthfulness of His Eminence are his additional trump cards as a possible Patriarch in this issue. Perhaps, these are qualities that will be decisive since they may be helpful in convincing the Turkish authorities that the EP's activity will be predictable for many decades and won't become a threat to Turkey's national interests.

There's a rumor that the very abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery don't mind to use  patriarchal dignity to make educational process  here - within the walls  that've already become home to him,- finally resumed.

Actually, why not? His Eminence has a rare combination of energy, practical experience, spiritual and theological maturity. I guess he really would be able to protect Orthodoxy and the high position of the Constantinople Patriarchate from all threats and attacks. What do you think about this?

I believe if that His Eminence were to succeed the Ecumenical Patriarch, if he tried to push forward the primus sine paribus agenda you outlined, and in particular attempted to unilaterally take control lf the Orthodox churches in North America and the Diaspora, and unilaterally conclude ecumenical pacts (for example, if he were to unilaterally restore communion with Rome), it is very likely he would wind up like Nestorius.

Based on the precedent set by the Council of Ephesus, any autocephalous archbishop has the authority to convene an ecumenical council for the purpose of deposing any other autocephalous archbishop, and indeed, the convening archbishop appears to have very broad latitude as to rules of procedure and whether or not the accused can even speak in his defense (see Chalcedon, from whoch the Metropolitan of Bursa extrapolates, using Article 28, much of his erroneous primus sine paribus ecclesiology).

If an Ecumenical Patriarch were deposed, by, for example, an ecumenical council convened by Moscow or Antioch, it is interesting to consider, in the absence of an Emperor to enforce the decrees of the council, how easy it would be for his successor to be enthroned.  I expect that if His Eminence did become the Ecumemical Patriarch, and did do the things you imply he ought to do, he would be deposed by a council driven by Moscow (and perhaps led by Antioch, for aesthetic reasons); the Athonite monks and certain conservative factions like the monasteries of Elder Ephrem in GoArch would likely support his deposition and accept his replacement, whereas GoArch, the Finns and non-MP Estonians, and the Russian emigres and Ukrainians in the diaspora under the EP who would otherwise be under Moscow, would probably object to his replacement, and the possibility exists some autocephalous churches, perhaps Jerusalem, Cyprus or Alexandria, might also dissent...however, I am inclined to believe most if not all autocepahlous primates would back his replacement, since taking unilateral action on the assumption of an authority held primus sine paribus is a threat to the authority of every autocephalous Eastern Orthodox church.

So certainly, at least the crown jewell of the EP, Mount Athos, would accept his replacement.  And the offer of autocephaly to the Church of Finland, ACROD, the Church of Estonia (EP) and so on might well be enough to turn the tide against him.  It would be very unwise for any bishop in any country with friendly relations with Russia to oppose a Moscow led council in this manner; they could likewise be deposed and replaced with greater ease.

It shpuld be noted that there would be no happy ending to such a scenario: in both cases where an Ecumenical Council deposed a sitting autocephalous patriarch, a permanent schism resulted. 

~

Theere would be two potential disasters if His Eminence were to become the Ecumenical Patriarch: the nightmarish meccessity of his removal, as outlined above, could well cause a permanent and destructive schism; in addition, unilateral actions on his part based on his perceoved (and erroneous) misconception of his pastoral authority might result in a massive setback in the process of ecumenical reconciliation.  If, for example, he unilaterally restored communion wih Rome, it would be a false communion, like that followimg the latrocinium of the Council of Florence, and it could delay the reunion of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches by centuries.   I pray that the Great Schism will have ended by 2054, but if a future Ecumenical Patriarch sought to end it unilaterally, such an ill-advised power play would very possibly extend it to 3054.  I further believe that it is quite likely the Metropolitan of Bursa might, based on the history of his published academic corpus and public comments, attempt such a move. 

So thus I fear I have to pray that he is not chosen to replace His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years, but that instead the burden of leading the Constantinopolitan church should fall on someone capable of reconciling the hierarchy of the church with the Athonite monastic community and improving the health of the parishes (ACROD, already a part of the EP, might be something of a beacon to be followed in this respect).  Actually, on that basis, I myself would probably endorse Bishop Gregory of the Diocese of Nyassa to serve as the next Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.  His jurisdiction has the highest Sunday attendance of any in the United States, he has, as far as I am aware, no hostility eith Mount Athos, and he is not a member of the Phanariot community, or even Greek, but a Carpatho-Rusyn; most importantly, he has never published any academic papers which elicited immediate pan-Orthodox controversy, so to me at least. he seems, on the basis of diversity and ecclesiastical performance, to be a very well qualified candidate.  Certainly, it is hard to imagine his election leading to a schism, which is more than can be said about the Metropolitan of Bursa.

Bishop Gregory is greek, not Carpatho-Rusyn. Other then that I agree with your post.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2016, 11:11:02 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2016, 11:28:06 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


I ran into this problem the other day. The rest of the first page Google results were Orthodox Christians such as ourselves complaining about the contents of said missing documents.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2016, 12:20:59 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.

Interestingly enough, it still exists in Greek on that page.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2016, 12:21:50 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.


LOL.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2016, 12:36:47 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2016, 12:55:49 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?

There are a few possibilities:

1) The author is being groomed for Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese of North America, and this document is rather embarrassing for a hierarch who would be expected to get along with everybody (i.e. the non-Greeks).

2) It goes against the public narrative that Constantinople does not have aspirations of forming a Dual Papacy.

3) There are a lot of holes in it that they'd rather not advertise.

4) One other 'rumor' which I need to substantiate before I write it here.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2016, 01:46:14 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.

Interestingly enough, it still exists in Greek on that page.
of course.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2016, 07:43:22 PM »
The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.

Why folks here keep bringing us up. The dispute about Finland was settled decades ago. We are under EP and even Moscow doesn't dispute that.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 01:13:37 AM »
The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.

Why folks here keep bringing us up. The dispute about Finland was settled decades ago. We are under EP and even Moscow doesn't dispute that.

Lol, decades.  29 May 1453 happened yesterday.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 06:53:45 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?

There are a few possibilities:

1) The author is being groomed for Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese of North America, and this document is rather embarrassing for a hierarch who would be expected to get along with everybody (i.e. the non-Greeks).

2) It goes against the public narrative that Constantinople does not have aspirations of forming a Dual Papacy.

3) There are a lot of holes in it that they'd rather not advertise.

4) One other 'rumor' which I need to substantiate before I write it here.


I have a feeling that number 4 involves the departure of the Metropolitan of Bursa for greener or perhaps more Tiberian pastures, although this is merely my instinct, and I also Father would appreciate your guidance in how we can discuss things of this sort and speculate without gossippping about hierarchs.  At present, I regard the Metropolitan of Nursa as a holy bishop of the Orthodox Church and would render him all due honours and call him Vladyka or Master, but I disagree with him, completely, on his interpretation of the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

By the way, how does one, if presented with the opportunity, tell a bishop you think they are in error?  In Orthodoxy I believe it has been established the laity can correct errant bishops and have on some occasions, although usually it is the other way around, but can someone really approach a Metropolitan bishop and say "I am sorry, your eminence, but I believe you are dead wrong on this issue!" ?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 06:54:51 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?

There are a few possibilities:

1) The author is being groomed for Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese of North America, and this document is rather embarrassing for a hierarch who would be expected to get along with everybody (i.e. the non-Greeks).

2) It goes against the public narrative that Constantinople does not have aspirations of forming a Dual Papacy.

3) There are a lot of holes in it that they'd rather not advertise.

4) One other 'rumor' which I need to substantiate before I write it here.


I have a feeling that number 4 involves the departure of the Metropolitan of Bursa for greener or perhaps more Tiberian pastures...

;)

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 07:08:59 PM »

By the way, how does one, if presented with the opportunity, tell a bishop you think they are in error?  In Orthodoxy I believe it has been established the laity can correct errant bishops and have on some occasions, although usually it is the other way around, but can someone really approach a Metropolitan bishop and say "I am sorry, your eminence, but I believe you are dead wrong on this issue!" ?

My understanding is that you bring it to the attention of other Bishops and/or the Church's local Synod via other Bishops who have a responsibility and mechanism to correct a fellow Bishop through proper means.   Personally speaking, I think this is the only acceptable method.   

Offline Tamar78

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2016, 03:50:42 AM »
Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Quite surprising, I've noted this topic being discussed on another Christian forum. A lot of people express their opposition to the "primus sine paribus" idea. But there are speculations that the leadership of Constantinople is urgently needed to counterbalance the influence of Russian patriarch Kirill. "The perspective is clear – without Elpidophoros we’re gonna see Kirill and Putin dominate and manipulate the whole Orthodox church", - some of the users say.

Besides that, there are posts about the Patriarch Bartholome's poor  health. "He’s had Parkinson for many years and in addition now people say he suffers from some kind of oncology. That’s no surprise – remember his look at the opening of the Holy and Great Council! His hands were shaking horribly! That’s why he hurried to hold the Council. Now he obviously needs a successor. There was a good idea to hold Councils every 3-5 years, but who will do that?".

Some other possible candidates who may succeed His All Holiness Bartholomew I as Ecumenical Patriarch are mentioned as well. For example, a supporter of  Bursa Metropolitan wrote:

"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it. Who else? Metropolitan of Pergamon? – We remember him sleeping at the last Holy and Great Council, we see him living in his own imaginary world full of personalism, existentialism and solipsism! Metropolitan Emmanuel? He is weak and unconfident, he can’t demonstrate any opposition and some people say he is corrupt and immoral in personal life!".

However, Met. Emmanuel was also reported to slander Elpidophoros in the face of EP. And even Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis was said to being restrained from the real decision-making due to his connections with the ambitious Metropolitan of Bursa.

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2016, 11:27:17 AM »
Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Quite surprising, I've noted this topic being discussed on another Christian forum. A lot of people express their opposition to the "primus sine paribus" idea. But there are speculations that the leadership of Constantinople is urgently needed to counterbalance the influence of Russian patriarch Kirill. "The perspective is clear – without Elpidophoros we’re gonna see Kirill and Putin dominate and manipulate the whole Orthodox church", - some of the users say.

Besides that, there are posts about the Patriarch Bartholome's poor  health. "He’s had Parkinson for many years and in addition now people say he suffers from some kind of oncology. That’s no surprise – remember his look at the opening of the Holy and Great Council! His hands were shaking horribly! That’s why he hurried to hold the Council. Now he obviously needs a successor. There was a good idea to hold Councils every 3-5 years, but who will do that?".

Some other possible candidates who may succeed His All Holiness Bartholomew I as Ecumenical Patriarch are mentioned as well. For example, a supporter of  Bursa Metropolitan wrote:

"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it. Who else? Metropolitan of Pergamon? – We remember him sleeping at the last Holy and Great Council, we see him living in his own imaginary world full of personalism, existentialism and solipsism! Metropolitan Emmanuel? He is weak and unconfident, he can’t demonstrate any opposition and some people say he is corrupt and immoral in personal life!".

However, Met. Emmanuel was also reported to slander Elpidophoros in the face of EP. And even Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis was said to being restrained from the real decision-making due to his connections with the ambitious Metropolitan of Bursa.

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

The Patriarchate of Constantinople is part of a larger question of the declining fertility rate among ethnic Greeks.  The Greek population in Greece is 'responsible' for filling not only several hundred monastic institutions, but also hierarchical positions within the State Church of Greece, Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Alexandria (the Albanian government has apparently forbade further Greek bishops there, and Cyprus fills its own slots as an 'ethnic Greek' community).  As the general population decreases, so do the number of candidates.

What this does is swing the ethnic makeup of the Church more towards the Slavs (the Russians have turned around their declining rates since the 1990s, though much of the rest of Eastern Europe has not):



With more conversions in Africa, the Americas (Central America in particular), and even potential in China, the ethnic balance of the Church in terms of total population will continue to swing away from being a heavily Greek population into a much more diverse community than it has been in 500 years.

This is exciting, but it will be rather 'scary' since there will obviously be a realignment of episcopates and territories as some areas  need more bishops while other sees will be shut down or absorbed.  Right now, all the Greek Orthodox Christians in Turkey would fill just a couple of cathedral communities in Romania or Serbia.  eventually, someone will ask the question why there are any bishops there at all other than for historical purposes only.

The concern about 'Russian Influence' is rather odd, because right now one could say that there is an unbalanced favor towards 'Greek Influence,' as if that matters to most people at all.  I would say that we are just more used to the Greek influence, but it will naturally be harder to maintain with fewer and fewer ethnic Greeks (please see the map above to understand that I am speaking of demographics rather than a purposeful 'de-grecification' of the Orthodox Church).

This will make it even more complex when speaking of the 'diaspora,' which has largely relied on steady influxes of immigrants to preserve emigre identity.  Declining birth rates stop the flow, and so local communities are likely to 'go feral' and becomes something of a hybrid between immigrant and domestic cultures.

You can see an example of this today in Greek American parishes, which fly a Greek flag, even though their Patriarch operates under the Turkish flag and they have nothing to do with bishops from the Church of Greece.  If they flew the same flag in one of their parishes in Turkey, the building would get burned down, so such an idea would be utterly foreign to a modern Constantinopolitan Christian (the reverse would be true about a Turkish flag in a church in Greece).  Greek Americans have hybridized Greek, Constantinopolitan, and American cultures.  We are used to such things here, though on the whole they are rather strange.

The world is changing.  The Church is changing... whether we like it or not.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2016, 11:38:05 AM »

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

Infighting between titular bishops over titular sees and imaginary authority is deeply ingrained in the institutional culture of the Patriarchate of Constatinople. It's pretty much all their bishops in Turkey know how to do. And this isn't a new story-- between 1454 and 1895, the patriarchate changed hands 157 times between 105 patriarchs, which means the patriarchate changed hands roughly once every three years, with some individual patriarchs coming in and out of power three and four times, depending on which faction could raise the most money to bribe the Turks.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2016, 12:31:07 PM »

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

Infighting between titular bishops over titular sees and imaginary authority is deeply ingrained in the institutional culture of the Patriarchate of Constatinople. It's pretty much all their bishops in Turkey know how to do. And this isn't a new story-- between 1454 and 1895, the patriarchate changed hands 157 times between 105 patriarchs, which means the patriarchate changed hands roughly once every three years, with some individual patriarchs coming in and out of power three and four times, depending on which faction could raise the most money to bribe the Turks.

That reminded me of all this:

1466–1833

    165. Dionysius I (end 1466–1471)
        Symeon I of Trebizond (1471–1475), restored 1st time
    166. Raphael I (1475–1476)
    167. Maximus III (1476–1482)
        Symeon I of Trebizond (1482–1486), restored 2nd time
    168. Nephon II (1486–1488)
        Dionysius I (1488–1490), restored
    169. Maximus IV (1491–1497)
        Nephon II (1497–1498), restored 1st time
    170. Joachim I (1498–1502)
        Nephon II (1502), restored 2nd time
    171. Pachomius I (1503–1504)
        Joachim I (1504), restored
        Pachomius I (1504–1513), restored
    172. Theoleptus I (1513–1522)
    173. Jeremias I (1522–1524)
    174. Joannicius I (1524–1525)
        Jeremias I (1525–1546), restored
    175. Dionysius II (1546–1556)
    176. Joasaph II (1556–1565)
    177. Metrophanes III (1565–1572)
    178. Jeremias II Tranos (1572–1579)
        Metrophanes III (1579–1580), restored
        Jeremias II Tranos (1580–1584), restored 1st time
    179. Pachomius II (1584–1585)
    180. Theoleptus II (1585–1586)
        Jeremias II Tranos (1587–1595), restored 2nd time
    181. Matthew II (1596)
    182. Gabriel I (1596)
        Theophanes I Karykes (locum tenens, 1596)
        Meletius I Pegas (locum tenens, 1597)
    183. Theophanes I Karykes (1597)
    184. Meletius I Pegas (locum tenens, 1597–1598)
        Matthew II (1598–1602), restored 1st time
    185. Neophytus II (1602–1603)
        Matthew II (1603), restored 2nd time
    186. Raphael II (1603–1607)
        Neophytus II (1607–1612), restored
    187. Cyril I Lucaris (locum tenens, 1612)
    188. Timothy II (1612–1620)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1620–1623), restored 1st time
    189. Gregory IV (1623)
    190. Anthimus II (1623)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1623–1633), restored 2nd time
    191. Cyril II Kontares (1633)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1633–1634), restored 3rd time
    192. Athanasius III Patelaros (1634)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1634–1635), restored 4th time
        Cyril II Kontares (1635–1636), restored 1st time
    193. Neophytus III of Nicaea (1636–1637)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1637–1638) restored 5th time
        Cyril II Kontares (1638–1639), restored 2nd time
    194. Parthenius I (1639–1644)
    195. Parthenius II (1644–1646)
    196. Joannicius II (1646–1648)
        Parthenius II (1648–1651), restored
        Joannicius II (1651–1652), restored 1st time
    197. Cyril III (1652–1652)
        Athanasius III (1652), restored
    198. Paisius I (1652–1653)
        Joannicius II (1653–1654), restored 2nd time
        Cyril III (1654), restored
        Joannicius II (1655–1656), restored 3rd time
    199. Parthenius III (1656–1657)
    200. Gabriel II (1657)
    201. Parthenius IV (1657–1659)
    202. Theophanes II (1659)
        vacant (1659–1662)
    203. Dionysius III (1662–1665)
        Parthenius IV (1665–1667), restored 1st time
    204. Clement (1667)
    205. Methodius III (1668–1671)
        Parthenius IV (1671), restored 2nd time
    206. Dionysius IV Muselimes (1671–1673)
    207. Gerasimus II (1673–1674)
        Parthenius IV (1675–1676) restored 3rd time
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1676–1679), restored 1st time
    208. Athanasius IV (1679)
    209. James (1679–1682)
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1682–1684), restored 2nd time
        Parthenius IV (1684–1685) restored 4th time
        James (1685–1686), restored 1st time
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1686–1687), restored 3rd time
        James (1687–1688), restored 2nd time
    210. Callinicus II (1688)
    211. Neophytus IV (1688)
        Callinicus II (1689–1693), restored 1st time
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1693–1694), restored 4th time
        Callinicus II (1694–1702), restored 2nd time
    212. Gabriel III (1702–1707)
    213. Neophytus V (1707)
    214. Cyprianus (1707–1709)
    215. Athanasius V (1709–1711)
    216. Cyril IV (1711–1713)
        Cyprianus (1713–1714), restored
    217. Cosmas III (1714–1716)
    218. Jeremias III (1716–1726)
        Callinicus III (1726)[5]
    219. Paisius II (1726–1732)
        Jeremias III (1732–1733), restored
    220. Serapheim I (1733–1734)
    221. Neophytus VI (1734–1740)
        Paisius II (1740–1743), restored 1st time
        Neophytus VI (1743–1744), restored
        Paisius II (1744–1748), restored 2nd time
    222. Cyril V (1748–1751)
        Paisius II (1751–1752), restored 2nd time
        Cyril V (1752–1757), restored 1st time
    223. Callinicus IV (1757)
    224. Serapheim II (1757–1761)
    225. Joannicius III (1761–1763)
    226. Samuel I Chatzeres (1763–1768)
    227. Meletius II (1769–1769)
    228. Theodosius II (1769–1773)
        Samuel I Chatzeres (1773–1774), restored
    229. Sophronius II (1774–1780)
    230. Gabriel IV (1780–1785)
    231. Procopius (1785–1789)
    232. Neophytus VII (1789–1794)
    233. Gerasimus III (1794–1797)
    234. Gregory V (1797–1798)
        Neophytus VII (1798–1801), restored
    235. Callinicus V (1801–1806)
        Gregory V (1806–1808), restored 1st time
        Callinicus V (1808–1809), restored
    236. Jeremias IV (1809–1813)
    237. Cyril VI (1813–1818)
        Gregory V (1818–1821), restored 2nd time
    238. Eugenius II (1821–1822)
    239. Anthimus III (1822–1824)
    240. Chrysanthus I (1824–1826)
    241. Agathangelus I (1826–1830)
    242. Constantius I (1830–1834)
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2016, 12:43:15 PM »
Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim)


I love this thread.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2016, 01:02:59 PM »
I couldn't find anything regarding Dionysius IV's nickname, but I came across a much stranger anecdote on a former Patriarch:

Quote
Dionysius reigned with the protection of Mara till the end of 1471, when his opponents accused him of having been converted to Islam for a short time and of being consequently circumcised. A synod was gathered by his opponents to judge him. Despite revealing his penis so that all present could verify that he was not circumcised, he was deposed and replaced by Symeon I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_I_of_Constantinople

Edit: His title is a mistranslation. "Mouselimes" was actually an Ottoman administrative position he took before being Patriarch, "müsellim". Greek for "Muslim" is "mousoulmanos". http://asiaminor.ehw.gr/forms/fLemmaBodyExtended.aspx?lemmaID=7793
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 01:19:10 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Nephi

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2016, 01:15:11 PM »
Quote
Dionysius reigned with the protection of Mara till the end of 1471, when his opponents accused him of having been converted to Islam for a short time and of being consequently circumcised. A synod was gathered by his opponents to judge him. Despite revealing his penis so that all present could verify that he was not circumcised, he was deposed and replaced by Symeon I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_I_of_Constantinople

Can't say I expected to read something like that today.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2016, 01:31:14 PM »
Quote
Dionysius reigned with the protection of Mara till the end of 1471, when his opponents accused him of having been converted to Islam for a short time and of being consequently circumcised. A synod was gathered by his opponents to judge him. Despite revealing his penis so that all present could verify that he was not circumcised, he was deposed and replaced by Symeon I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_I_of_Constantinople

Can't say I expected to read something like that today.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2016, 09:12:32 PM »



"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it.

Good God! I think he'd do less harm in Constantinople!
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2016, 12:18:36 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2016, 12:36:10 AM »
When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
What about Russians?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2016, 12:37:01 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
Speaking only for myself, this isn't a "Greek" thing. I have nothing against the ethnically Greek Orthodox - but Met Elpidophoros has made some statements in the past that show that he has an overblown view of the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch (along with a high-falutin' interpretation of Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon {if I agreed with such views as he espouses, I would have become a Roman Catholic and been under the "real" Pope!}). I have issues with Met Elpidophoros and him alone and could name more than a few Greek hierarchs I think would make a better Ecumenical Patriarch (or Archbishop of America). 

Also, the Greeks are not the largest population of the Orthodox in the world. Going by nation, Russia has that honor - the Greek Church making up only 10% or so of Russia's. Going by ethnicity, Russia still outnumbers the Greeks. They DO have the largest Orthodox population in America, but America, while being in the world, hardly makes up its entirety.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2016, 12:44:16 AM »
You two are correct. 60 million Russians > 25 million Greeks, in Eastern Orthodoxy worldwide, due to the recent surge of Orthodoxy in Russia.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2016, 12:45:11 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2016, 12:45:46 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2016, 12:47:10 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000


Very humorous.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2016, 12:48:42 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000


Very humorous.

Not humorous.  Just the truth.  Even if you add the overseas holdings, your assertion was factually incorrect.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2016, 12:56:15 AM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?

Talk about something in the cornflakes...
Non-Greeks-
Church of Russia: 150,000,000
Church of Romania: 17,000,000
Church of Serbia: 12,000,000
Church of Bulgaria: 10,000,000
Church of Antioch: 1,500,000
Total: 190,500,000


Greeks-
Church of Greece: 17,000,000
Church of Cyprus: 700,000
Church of Jerusalem: 500,000 (mostly Palestinian)
Church of Alexandria: 400,000 (not counting the non-Greek African adherents)
Church of Constantinople: 2,500 (not counting various exarchates, which still would add less that 2,000,000)
Total: 18,600,000


Very humorous.

Not humorous.  Just the truth.  Even if you add the overseas holdings, your assertion was factually incorrect.

I'm not denying it, I am pointing out the very humorous way in which you went about making the point (and I didn't even point out the silly lumping of "non-Greeks" as though they are the Russians). You made your points in an eccentric way indeed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2016, 01:02:12 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2016, 01:06:06 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2016, 01:07:13 AM »
You made your points in an eccentric way indeed.

As an American Orthodox Christian, I am, by definition, an eccentric. 
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2016, 01:10:43 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I suggest you spend more quality time among Greeks.  Then you can get the facts and lose the hope.    ;D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 01:11:00 AM by FatherGiryus »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2016, 01:20:04 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2016, 01:47:11 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2016, 01:58:18 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
Porter, what does that have to do with the topic?

The Metropolitan's ecclesiology is very worrisome for an Orthodox Christian.
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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2016, 02:02:42 AM »
Glad to!

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread ((Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.
Irate? Perhaps. Fanciful? Not at this time.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:04:12 AM by FormerReformer »
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2016, 02:07:50 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
Porter, what does that have to do with the topic?

The Metropolitan's ecclesiology is very worrisome for an Orthodox Christian.

It is the topic. Post after post of dour exaggeration, bald assertion, and hints at conspiracy. Point out to me anything official and substantive here.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2016, 02:50:39 AM »
But I'll bet most or all of you posting here are in the Americas, which might explain your underdog fervor.

It would equally explain your attempting to be more Greek than the Greeks  ;D

I have no idea whether refraining from imaginatively maligning one's hierarchs is a specifically Greek trait or not. I hope not.

I've seen very little "imaginative" maligning in this thread (Isa's views on the Ecumenical Patriarchate are well known to any of us who post here for any length of time, so we'll give that one a pass). I have seen discussion of a view from a particular hierarch that should be worrisome to any Orthodox Christian - a well documented (if mysteriously missing from the EP's own page) view, written by his own hand, stated by him in public many times (here on the American shores, even).

This isn't the Confession of St Cyril Lukaris where there is a matter of debate as to authorship. This is a hierarch of the Church who has openly stated a borderline heretical ecclesiology, the likes of which would have Pope Pius IX jumping up and down with glee. No imagination is required for maligning, the facts are malignant on their own. One hopes the cancer can be contained.

Point me to the part of your post that isn't fancifully irate, as I'm not seeing it ...
Porter, what does that have to do with the topic?

The Metropolitan's ecclesiology is very worrisome for an Orthodox Christian.

It is the topic. Post after post of dour exaggeration, bald assertion, and hints at conspiracy. Point out to me anything official and substantive here.
Where is the "dour exaggeration, bald assertion, and hints at conspiracy?" You seem to be the most fanciful writer here, Porter. FormerReformer is being pretty straightforward.

Take it:

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/01/met-elpidophoros-of-bursa-issues-strong.html

It has been scrubbed from the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in all languages, save Greek.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:51:13 AM by Antonis »
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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2016, 03:16:49 AM »
"Scrubbed," eh. And this dirty deed of HAH presages, what, Orthodox Armageddon? I await more of the prophetic perceptions of the wise men in this thread.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2016, 03:28:24 AM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline hecma925

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2016, 03:29:34 AM »
 :laugh:
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2016, 10:28:46 AM »
Meddling in the affairs of the Church?

How are our comments here meddling in anything?  Do any of us have the power to change anything?  You overestimate the influence of the OCNet.  I would be that less than 1% of English-speaking Orthodox Christians even know this forum exists.  Personally, I only know of one or two occasions when hierarchs have actually known about something posted here.

However, we are dealing with a topic that 'meddles' in our affairs: specifically, the ecclesiology represented in Met. Elpidophoros' essay on behalf of his Patriarchate, which argues for a type of 'papal primacy.'  That is a 'meddling' when one claims authority over the entire Church, because eventually such authority gets exercised.

I suggest that if we want to accuse others of a 'false sense of importance,' we might also want to examine our own.  I think that all of us here have a 'false sense of importance,' and none of us are immune to it.  None.



Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2016, 10:58:51 AM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline hecma925

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2016, 11:15:56 AM »
I AM THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW.  I HAVE HACKED HECMA925'S ACCOUNT TO MEDDLE IN YOUR AFFAIRS, OCNET.  HOW DO YOU LIKE IT?  MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX OR ELSE YOU WILL BE CUT OFF (OR DEPOSED IN THE CASE OF CLERGY).



DO NOT MAKE ME ANGRY.  DO NOT EVEN THINK OF COMMENTING ABOUT THIS COUNCIL.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2016, 12:44:47 PM »



"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it.

Good God! I think he'd do less harm in Constantinople!
a genius move in the tradition of the troyka of Abp. Stylianos of Australia bringing Abp. Spridon. That worked so well-in bringing us Abp. Demetrios (Many Years!).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2016, 12:46:03 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2016, 12:52:09 PM »
Meddling in the affairs of the Church?

How are our comments here meddling in anything?  Do any of us have the power to change anything?

The fly doesn't have the "power" to change the household, either.

Quote
You overestimate the influence of the OCNet.

That would be very, very difficult to prove, as either way we'd be speaking in infiitesimals. Now, OC.net influence is not germane to my point at all.

I would be that less than 1% of English-speaking Orthodox Christians even know this forum exists.  Personally, I only know of one or two occasions when hierarchs have actually known about something posted here.

Quote
However, we are dealing with a topic that 'meddles' in our affairs: specifically, the ecclesiology represented in Met. Elpidophoros' essay on behalf of his Patriarchate, which argues for a type of 'papal primacy.'  That is a 'meddling' when one claims authority over the entire Church, because eventually such authority gets exercised.

How exactly does it impact you? I think it cannot possibly impact you directly.

Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2016, 12:52:34 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2016, 12:54:20 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
is larger than the number of the Phanar's flock in Istanbul.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2016, 12:57:12 PM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.

No. I will not entirely ignore thread after thread of juvenile dark mutterings against the Church in a public forum of which I'm a member. What strange advice. If you wish to indulge this baser side of your natures in public, you can expect a response. Oh and I'm hurt, hurt to be compared to someone like the Holy Prophet Jeremiah. ::)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2016, 01:01:02 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
is larger than the number of the Phanar's flock in Istanbul.

And negligible (not to mention in a very silly position) compared to the flock throughout America and Western Europe, or compared to the flock under Constantinople's care only two generations ago. You know, I'm sorry being small bothers any poster here, but, on the other hand, you could try not announcing the fact so often.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2016, 01:02:41 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2016, 01:07:37 PM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion. 

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2016, 01:15:05 PM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement? I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2016, 01:15:35 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

Another humorist among us.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2016, 01:20:43 PM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement?

The latter.

Quote
I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.

And what is that? 

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2016, 01:29:49 PM »
How exactly does it impact you? I think it cannot possibly impact you directly.

I don't know if you know this, but I work for the Church.

It is kind of important to know how the Chain-of-Command operates, if you know what I mean.  I've never had a job where I didn't have to know who was in charge of what.

As an ex-Amish, I'm assuming you've never worked for a corporation before.  So, this might be a foreign concept to you, which I totally get.

However, as a clergyman, it is important to know who defines teachings and how, and who to appeal to when things at a local level get out-of-hand.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2016, 01:58:53 PM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.

No. I will not entirely ignore thread after thread of juvenile dark mutterings against the Church in a public forum of which I'm a member. What strange advice. If you wish to indulge this baser side of your natures in public, you can expect a response. Oh and I'm hurt, hurt to be compared to someone like the Holy Prophet Jeremiah. ::)
Pray for us.

Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement? I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.
This is not our religion.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2016, 02:24:46 PM »
Short story: Meddling in affairs of the Church is giving you all a sense of importance. A false sense of importance, but a sense of importance all the same. And this swelling sensation is, evidently, more compelling to you than any sense of restraint, respect, and love of brothers.
And who are you, the Prophet Jeremiah?

If you don't like it, don't participate. Next time you are feeling high and mighty, try and find a different outlet rather than touring OC.net threads and expressing your righteous indignation towards us Ninevites. Show us your apparently well-developed restraint, respect, and love for brethren.

No. I will not entirely ignore thread after thread of juvenile dark mutterings against the Church in a public forum of which I'm a member.

You do realize that criticism of one metropolitan  (or even Patriarch) =/= criticism of the Church?

As for the role of the layman you refer to later, it is our duty to cry "Axios" or "Anaxios" in response to those in positions of ecclessial authority in so far as our understanding allows.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 02:25:22 PM by FormerReformer »
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2016, 02:32:58 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

"The violent breathing of the Holy Spirit". 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2016, 02:35:20 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...
yeah, I'd love to know the details of his Antiochian background and how it seasoned this gyros of homogeneia.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2016, 02:42:21 PM »
Could the original post and the rest of you gents' posts be any more hysterical and obvious? When did the Greeks (still the largest Orthodox population in the world, by the way) put anything in your cornflakes?
The Greeks have never been the largest Orthodox population in the world. Ever.

The OCA, on the other hand ...
is larger than the number of the Phanar's flock in Istanbul.

And negligible (not to mention in a very silly position)

LOL.
Having a synod of bishops with flocks-opposed to the Phanar's standing synod of bishops not in their sees without flocks-the OCA is fine.
compared to the flock throughout America and Western Europe

I believe someone already brought up the image of congregations not admitting where they are living flying a flag in Church that their bishops do not pledge allegiance to (the Phanar must all be Turkish citizens-Met. Nikitas joined them a short time ago).
or compared to the flock under Constantinople's care only two generations ago.

you mean, when the ethnarch functioned as the Ottoman's tool to suppress the other patriarchates?
You know, I'm sorry being small bothers any poster here, but, on the other hand, you could try not announcing the fact so often.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2016, 02:44:04 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

"The violent breathing of the Holy Spirit".
Sure HE wasn't coughing something up?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2016, 02:47:38 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

Another humorist among us.

It's not funny, it's rather sad. The name of Jesus does not occur a single time in his speech.  Where the name "Christ" appears, it occurs either in the word "Christian" or on its own as part of an alternate name for the Church of Constantinople.   

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2016, 04:47:06 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

Another humorist among us.

It's not funny, it's rather sad. The name of Jesus does not occur a single time in his speech.  Where the name "Christ" appears, it occurs either in the word "Christian" or on its own as part of an alternate name for the Church of Constantinople.   

He does sound rather like Pres. George Washington's First Inaugural, which tiptoed around the fact of his belief in God. "The ineffable divine economy and mercy," "the prestigious providence of God." He does quote the Gospel once. A disappointing ordination speech.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2016, 06:32:50 PM »
Also very interesting for understanding his mindset is: http://www.ecclesia.gr/englishnews/default.asp?id=3986

What stands out here is his belief that "Hellenism is identified with its ecumenical character and for that reason it can never be nationalistic for both of its manifestations, its culture and its Orthodox faith are concepts that transcend the boundaries of the national."

This is self-contradictory and basically amounts to saying "my nationalism and ethnic chauvinism isn't nationalist and chauvinist because my cultural peculiarity should be seen as the universal norm."

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2016, 07:47:46 PM »
Also very interesting for understanding his mindset is: http://www.ecclesia.gr/englishnews/default.asp?id=3986

What stands out here is his belief that "Hellenism is identified with its ecumenical character and for that reason it can never be nationalistic for both of its manifestations, its culture and its Orthodox faith are concepts that transcend the boundaries of the national."

This is self-contradictory and basically amounts to saying "my nationalism and ethnic chauvinism isn't nationalist and chauvinist because my cultural peculiarity should be seen as the universal norm."

Just taking the quote at face value apart from context, as you're expecting us to do here, it still does not mean what you're saying it does. "Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world. And "transcend" does not mean "should be seen as ...," but recognizes a long-established fact. In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism to argue that the Orthodox faith that accompanied it throughout the Western world deserves to recover the same broad admission of merit and appropriateness to society.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 07:49:30 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2016, 08:01:55 PM »
Also very interesting for understanding his mindset is: http://www.ecclesia.gr/englishnews/default.asp?id=3986

What stands out here is his belief that "Hellenism is identified with its ecumenical character and for that reason it can never be nationalistic for both of its manifestations, its culture and its Orthodox faith are concepts that transcend the boundaries of the national."

This is self-contradictory and basically amounts to saying "my nationalism and ethnic chauvinism isn't nationalist and chauvinist because my cultural peculiarity should be seen as the universal norm."

Just taking the quote at face value apart from context, as you're expecting us to do here, it still does not mean what you're saying it does. "Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world. And "transcend" does not mean "should be seen as ...," but recognizes a long-established fact. In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism to argue that the Orthodox faith that accompanied it throughout the Western world deserves to recover the same broad admission of merit and appropriateness to society.
Phyletism isn't Phyletism when Greeks do it.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2016, 08:23:27 PM »
Also very interesting for understanding his mindset is: http://www.ecclesia.gr/englishnews/default.asp?id=3986

What stands out here is his belief that "Hellenism is identified with its ecumenical character and for that reason it can never be nationalistic for both of its manifestations, its culture and its Orthodox faith are concepts that transcend the boundaries of the national."

This is self-contradictory and basically amounts to saying "my nationalism and ethnic chauvinism isn't nationalist and chauvinist because my cultural peculiarity should be seen as the universal norm."

Just taking the quote at face value apart from context, as you're expecting us to do here, it still does not mean what you're saying it does. "Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world. And "transcend" does not mean "should be seen as ...," but recognizes a long-established fact. In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism to argue that the Orthodox faith that accompanied it throughout the Western world deserves to recover the same broad admission of merit and appropriateness to society.
Phyletism isn't Phyletism when Greeks do it.

Well they encompassed the known world and embraced all ethnicities. They were even known to inspire certain Hellenized Saint to implement a form of the Greek alphabet for Slavic use. The Apostles, originating with the Sees of Antioch and Jerusalem, apparently had no objection to using Hellenistic language and concepts. The Fathers even moreso. All this is Church history and tradition of an essential or existential kind. I understand that Americans reflexively chafe under anything less than the full limelight, but it might be worthwhile as Orthodox for us to take a break from that reflex and get a larger view.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2016, 08:31:34 PM »
I understand that Americans reflexively chafe under anything less than the full limelight, but it might be worthwhile as Orthodox for us to take a break from that reflex and get a larger view.

This isn't about America... you should read up on the history of the disastrous effects of Hellenic chauvinism on the churches in the Middle East, just to start with....

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2016, 08:35:02 PM »
I understand that Americans reflexively chafe under anything less than the full limelight, but it might be worthwhile as Orthodox for us to take a break from that reflex and get a larger view.

This isn't about America... you should read up on the history of the disastrous effects of Hellenic chauvinism on the churches in the Middle East, just to start with....

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2016, 08:39:32 PM »
I understand that Americans reflexively chafe under anything less than the full limelight, but it might be worthwhile as Orthodox for us to take a break from that reflex and get a larger view.

This isn't about America... you should read up on the history of the disastrous effects of Hellenic chauvinism on the churches in the Middle East, just to start with....

Pretty sure on this forum it is about America, sublimated as it may be.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2016, 08:41:05 PM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2016, 08:43:32 PM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

I beg to differ.   But your narrative is very convenient for you I suppose.   

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2016, 08:45:51 PM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism American democracy, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

T;ftfy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2016, 08:51:52 PM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

Sigh.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2016, 09:11:59 PM »
It's fair enough if you want to say that American democracy and capitalism and whatever are also similarly un-self-aware ideologies... though of relatively recent (post-WWII) provenance and perhaps reaching a high-water mark during the Bush II administration. But, I'm not often exposed to Americanist ideology in a church context-- perhaps others are.

You're misreading my concerns, however, if you think that I'm worried about America either way. My concern is that in many ecclesiastical contexts (including the recent Crete Meet), unnecessary problems arise because the EP is apparently unaware that for many churches (some of which much older and more apostolic than herself), Constantinople amounts to a former colonial master and not a 'mother' and Hellenism (especially in the sense it came to have after the Greek Revolution) is an imposed outside culture. If there was an acknowledgment that 'Hellenism' =/= Greek culture and language and is something more like what Florovsky meant by it (and not what his reception in Greece understood him to mean), then this, while still perhaps problematic, would be a starting point for further reflection and not a dead end.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2016, 09:32:46 PM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

Sigh.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2016, 09:36:51 PM »
I understand that Americans reflexively chafe under anything less than the full limelight, but it might be worthwhile as Orthodox for us to take a break from that reflex and get a larger view.

This isn't about America... you should read up on the history of the disastrous effects of Hellenic chauvinism on the churches in the Middle East, just to start with....

Pretty sure on this forum it is about America, sublimated as it may be.
LOL. Ask anyone in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania or Romania.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #109 on: July 09, 2016, 09:41:58 PM »
Also very interesting for understanding his mindset is: http://www.ecclesia.gr/englishnews/default.asp?id=3986

What stands out here is his belief that "Hellenism is identified with its ecumenical character and for that reason it can never be nationalistic for both of its manifestations, its culture and its Orthodox faith are concepts that transcend the boundaries of the national."

This is self-contradictory and basically amounts to saying "my nationalism and ethnic chauvinism isn't nationalist and chauvinist because my cultural peculiarity should be seen as the universal norm."

Just taking the quote at face value apart from context, as you're expecting us to do here, it still does not mean what you're saying it does. "Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world. And "transcend" does not mean "should be seen as ...," but recognizes a long-established fact. In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism to argue that the Orthodox faith that accompanied it throughout the Western world deserves to recover the same broad admission of merit and appropriateness to society.
Phyletism isn't Phyletism when Greeks do it.

Well they encompassed the known world and embraced all ethnicities.
The hell they did. Where did you think the term "barbarian" came from, and what it meant?

They were even known to inspire certain Hellenized Saint to implement a form of the Greek alphabet for Slavic use.
Uh, no, they were not. State your revisionism, and I'll explain.
The Apostles, originating with the Sees of Antioch and Jerusalem, apparently had no objection to using Hellenistic language and concepts.
Preaching to Greeks, of course not.
The Fathers even moreso. All this is Church history and tradition of an essential or existential kind. I understand that Americans reflexively chafe under anything less than the full limelight, but it might be worthwhile as Orthodox for us to take a break from that reflex and get a larger view.
You'll have to take that up with the Americans.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #110 on: July 09, 2016, 09:53:08 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.


Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 10:01:41 PM by Samn! »

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #111 on: July 09, 2016, 10:00:43 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.


Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because it's relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

As compelling as the later thesis is, id be interesting seeing how truly "self critical" it is.   Thank you for the reference here.   Do you think his work adequately addresses all relevant data, or is it simply a narrative that continues along the anti-"Greek" themes so -prevelant in Europe through the 8th to 19th centuries?  And continuing today?   I'm asking because you've read it.   Is it critical enough to be critical of its own thesis and its own cultural bias? I for one will add this to my reading list.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 10:01:55 PM by Onesimus »

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #112 on: July 09, 2016, 10:04:45 PM »
It's not funny, it's rather sad. The name of Jesus does not occur a single time in his speech.  Where the name "Christ" appears, it occurs either in the word "Christian" or on its own as part of an alternate name for the Church of Constantinople.   

From the link, he does say, "...I direct my mind, thought and eyes to you as my Father and Master, to whom – after God – I owe everything..."

From what I know of him, he seems a rather nice and caring man.  ...and I have "known" him for over a decade.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #113 on: July 09, 2016, 10:06:42 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.


Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....
so the Metropolitan is a Francophile Phanariot Cypriot from the Congo.

Yeah, perfect fit for Estonia. :o

Did he have anything to say about the Estonian bred, born, baptized, consecrated and speaking Patriarch of Moscow, Alexei II of blessed memory?
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #114 on: July 09, 2016, 10:11:11 PM »

As compelling as the later thesis is, id be interesting seeing how truly "self critical" it is.   Thank you for the reference here.   Do you think his work adequately addresses all relevant data, or is it simply a narrative that continues along the anti-"Greek" themes so -prevelant in Europe through the 8th to 19th centuries?  And continuing today?   I'm asking because you've read it.   Is it critical enough to be critical of its own thesis and its own cultural bias? I for one will add this to my reading list.

He's not too too concerned with modern or medieval Greece directly. It comes up when he contrasts the West's relationship to the classical world to that of Byzantium (which exemplifies self-referentiality) and medieval Islam (whose relationship with classical culture he qualifies as one of translation rather than proper absorption). By background Brague is a specialist in Medieval Arabic and Hebrew philosophy, so he's strongest when going into detail about the medieval translation movements and things like this. The book itself is a pretty quick read and compelling as, let's say, a conversation partner to engage with... which is what that genre of French writing is supposed to be.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #115 on: July 09, 2016, 10:40:30 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2016, 12:21:00 AM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?
The Phanar, when implicit in its jurisdictionalism a bishop must be a Greek no matter the race of his flock.
Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2016, 01:27:58 AM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

Sigh.
disappointed at being exposed?

I think she might be referring to your nakedness. (I do not mind it myself.)

I do have a question because my memory isn't great.  In regard to the GOAA, I thought Metropolitan Emmanuel of France was being groomed to succeed Archbishop Demetrios, not Metropolitan Elpidophoros.

Another question while I am at it. In regard to candidacy to be Patriarch of Constantinople. I recall that you no longer have to be born in Turkey but you must become a citizen for X years preceding election and live there for Y years. I do not recall that you have to have Greek genes but you may have to speak or read Greek (makes sense). So by my scenario, Metropolitan Jonah (formerly?) may have obtained Turkish citizenship by the deadline, will vacation in Turkey for a couple of years, will be received into the Church of Constantinople, and at a future date will be elected as Patriarch of Constantinople. This will provide us with a new contentious thread to follow. My question is - what are the current requirements and authoritative sources in regard to the answer?
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2016, 02:35:38 AM »
Quote
My question is - what are the current requirements and authoritative sources in regard to the answer?

In terms of the inner workings of the Church in Constantinople, I don't know.

In terms of Turkish law - As far as I understand it...(i.e. I don't) the current requirements are established under the oversight of the Directorate General of Foundations, (GDF) a government agency which regulates non-Muslim "foundations."   

The applicable website in English with references to applicable laws is http://www.vgm.gov.tr/icerikdetay.aspx?Id=168

According to the GDF, as I read it -the Orthodox Church falls under the Non-Muslim community  Foundations status, which "refer(s0 to those foundations that belong to the non-Muslim communities in Turkey, whose members are citizens of the Turkish Republic and that are vested with a legal body status under the Foundations Law no. 2762, irrespective of if they have a charter or not;"

Foundations Law 2762 is found in English here; http://en.ihd.org.tr/index.php/2008/07/08/law-for-foundations/  - Only Article 20 of this Law seems to touch on the issue.

Further; "Foundation Management refers to the body that is authorized to represent and administer the Foundation according to the charter, the 1936 Declaration, deed of trust, the Turkish Civil Law No: 4721 and this Law in annexed (mülhak), Non-Muslim community  and new foundations;

Foundation Manager refers to those persons authorized to manage and represent the foundation in the annexed (mülhak), Non-Muslim community , artisans' and new foundations under the Charter, the 1936 Declaration, the deed of trust, the Turkish Civil Law No: 4721 and this Law, or any persons having an office in the authorized and competent bodies.


It follows that the relevant stipulations for the Patriarch (Foundation Manager?) will be found in;

1)  The Phanar's foundations charter (can't find it)
2)  The 1936 Declaration (and any applicable changes, of which there are many, including laws 4771 and 4778)
3)  The deed of Trust for the foundation in question. (can't find it.)
4)  Turkish Civil Law No 4721.  Found Here - http://www.tusev.org.tr/usrfiles/files/Turkish_Civil_Code.pdf  - Third Section starting on pg. 15 seems applicable.
5)  Anyone else in authority in the "authorized and competent bodies."

Essentially, I think this means the whim of the GDP and the Turkish Parliament dictate suitability and interpretation and in essence dictate appointments based on their desires.

Some relevant and irrelevant information (specifically about laws 4771 and 4778) can be found here - http://www.rightsagenda.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=293:aliasminority-foundations-in-turkey-an-evaluation-of-their-legal-problems&catid=84:aliasminority-rights&Itemid=123

Drawing a blank on coming up with any specific requirements in terms of citizenship status, language, etc.

This could be way off...and is based on a preliminary search on the topic.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 02:38:12 AM by Onesimus »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2016, 10:10:44 AM »

Because ethnic chauvinism is only reflected in Hellenic culture.    ::)

No one said that. It's a unique feature of Hellenic chauvinism, however, to imagine itself to be universal and above chauvinism.

Sigh.
disappointed at being exposed?

I think she might be referring to your nakedness. (I do not mind it myself.)
That would be hard, given that my quote is after hers, and she hasn't shown herself much of a prophet.

They call it the naked truth for a reason. In fact, I think it comes from a Greek fable.

I do have a question because my memory isn't great.  In regard to the GOAA, I thought Metropolitan Emmanuel of France was being groomed to succeed Archbishop Demetrios, not Metropolitan Elpidophoros.
Not much difference (hence why the not-yet-metropolitan of Bursa cited France as his canonical ideal, ignoring what was actually the set up in America). Nor between then and Abp. Stylianos of Australia, who thought he had the job before Abp. Demetrios (Many Years!).

Another question while I am at it. In regard to candidacy to be Patriarch of Constantinople. I recall that you no longer have to be born in Turkey but you must become a citizen for X years preceding election and live there for Y years. I do not recall that you have to have Greek genes but you may have to speak or read Greek (makes sense).
Given that so many Greeks lack Greek genes (the dirty little secret of Hellenization), that's not a surprise. I don't know if any of the new Turkish citizens are not Greeks.

So by my scenario, Metropolitan Jonah (formerly?) may have obtained Turkish citizenship by the deadline, will vacation in Turkey for a couple of years, will be received into the Church of Constantinople, and at a future date will be elected as Patriarch of Constantinople. This will provide us with a new contentious thread to follow. My question is - what are the current requirements and authoritative sources in regard to the answer?
I doubt you will get a straight answer to that. There is no formal requirement that any of the Archbishops of the Phanar in "diaspora" have to be Greek, but I don't think it will appoint any other (Finland being the exception because, unlike Estonia, it won't let the Phanar get away with that).
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2016, 11:30:36 AM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 11:31:29 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2016, 11:32:25 AM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Please do not hold your breath.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2016, 11:35:05 AM »
Now I'd ask you folks to give the statement to which the Metropolitan was responding as much scrutiny. First, because it is the context and basis for his responses; second, because any document which we begin combing through closely and negatively is bound to yield some cause or other for complaint; third, because it really is full of sophistical rhetoric of all kinds, as the Metropolitan showed himself rather annoyed by. (Even the title reflects one such fallacy, that primacy in the church worldwide can be different in kind to primacy in the local church.) The official document is linked below:

Position of the Moscow Patriarch on the Problem of the Primacy in the Universal Church/url]

I read both this document and Met Elpidophoros' essay when they came out.  At the time, I saw more problems with the latter than with the former.  When those who support the EP's position would allege that the Russians were wrong, I'd ask them to scrutinise their position and present the errors or deficiencies.  To date, they have not done so.  If you can, I think it will be a significant step in this discussion.

Errors and deficiencies in their own position, once they've scrutinized it? Or errors and deficiencies in the Russian statement? I have no position, personally, on something like how primacy should be acted out in the Church, as it is no business whatever of mine; my business is to discover my own place and work as a so-called layman.

I have no clue what a "so-called layman" is. That said, you sure have lots of positions in all sorts of topics that are not immediately apparent to be of "business" to you.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2016, 11:58:43 AM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

His idol god?

Is that Christian love?

 >:(
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #125 on: July 10, 2016, 01:18:09 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

His idol god?

Is that Christian love?

 >:(

I know; thoroughly disgusting and unexpected from a bishop.

Offline biro

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #126 on: July 10, 2016, 02:02:04 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

His idol god?

Is that Christian love?

 >:(

I know; thoroughly disgusting and unexpected from a bishop.

I meant you.

I wish the site management would have at least the dignity and consistency to change the name. I don't know how you can indulge in this flame-throwing nonsense and think it's okay.

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2016, 02:10:54 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #128 on: July 10, 2016, 02:11:47 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

His idol god?

Is that Christian love?

 >:(

I know; thoroughly disgusting and unexpected from a bishop.

I meant you.

I wish the site management would have at least the dignity and consistency to change the name. I don't know how you can indulge in this flame-throwing nonsense and think it's okay.
St. John 8:32.

Do you demand that the Phanar at least have the dignity and consistency to change the name of its presiding hierarch to "Greek ethnarch"?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #129 on: July 10, 2016, 02:31:41 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

His idol god?

Is that Christian love?

 >:(

I know; thoroughly disgusting and unexpected from a bishop.

I meant you.

I wish the site management would have at least the dignity and consistency to change the name. I don't know how you can indulge in this flame-throwing nonsense and think it's okay.

Here is why I wrote what you call "nonsense." In his homily the good Metropolitan included a reference by name or title to the following persona:

Once: The Representative and other members of the honorable Greek Government; The Representative of the Opposition Party; The honorable diplomatic authorities; The representatives of the Churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, Romania, Georgia and Cyprus; The venerable Hierarchs, who came and concelebrated or prayed with us; The Office of the Chancellor at the University of Thessalonika; The Representative of the Roman Catholic Church; The Representative of the Syro-Jacobite Church; The Representative of the Armenian Church; The Patriarchal Court in its entirety, headed by His Eminence Metropolitan Stephanos of Kallioupolis and Madyton; The representatives of the Holy Monasteries on Mt. Athos: Great Lavra, Vatopedi, Dionysiou, Pantokratoros, Agiou Pavlou, Xenofontos and Gregoriou; My beloved parents Vasileios and Nadya; My brothers Edward, Paul and Xenophon, together with their families; My relatives, refugees from Eastern Thrace and Antioch; My colleagues, Professors at the Theological School of Thessalonika, together with my students; Those representing people from all over the world, who have their origins in Proussa, Triglia and Moudania; All the clergy, dear friends, distinguished colleagues at the Patriarchal Offices, teachers, community leaders and every citizen of this City; Archbishop Ieronymos of Athens; Ottoman Sultans Osman and Orhan; predecessor Bishops of Proussa adorn the Church Triumphant as Saints – whether Hieromartyrs, Righteous Ascetics, or god-bearing Fathers of Ecumenical Councils. I invoke the intercessions before the Lord of Saints Alexander, Patricius, George, Timothy and Theoktistos – all of them Bishops of Proussa – as well as of those martyred in Proussa: Acacius, Menander and Polyaenus; national benefactors Zarifi and Eustathios Eugenides; miraculous icon of the Virgin Mary of the Visitation; Poet George Seferis.

God the Father: Once.
God the Son, the Lord, Jesus, Christ: Zero times.
The Holy Spirit: Once (obliquely)
The Theotokos: Once (obliquely)

Patriarch Bartholomew: Twenty-nine (29) times.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 02:32:42 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2016, 02:49:58 PM »
Petty little men and women are we all.  Myself first and foremost.   Pray for forgiveness for our judgement and condemnations.   Pray for patience.  Pray for peace.   Pray that the vitriol against fellow Orthodox stops.  Pray for your enemies, as well as your friends.  Bless, do not curse.   Suffer, do not inflict suffering.

With the same mouth and tongue we take the Eucharist...we speak vitriolic words and gossip and innuendo against those with whom we are united in Christ.   Shameful.   

Quote
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.  We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.  Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go.  Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark.  The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind,  but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.  Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.  Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?  My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #131 on: July 10, 2016, 05:00:34 PM »
Keep in mind we can criticise a maybe too flattery behaviour of HE Elpidophoros towards HAH without publicly accusing him of idolatry.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2016, 05:26:58 PM »
Hopefully, the Turks do the right thing and shut the Phanar down.
Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.—Oscar Wilde

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2016, 05:52:56 PM »
Hopefully, the Turks do the right thing and shut the Phanar down.

Right...because in the event that a person thinks the Phanar is straying - it is in accord with Christian principles to hope that Muslims  "shut the Phanar down" rather than pray for their repentance and for the Lord to bless them, sanctify them and increase them in accordance with His will?

Why must we resort to such dramatics?   Can't we be charitable at all?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 05:54:23 PM by Onesimus »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2016, 06:00:31 PM »
Why must we resort to such dramatics?   Can't we be charitable at all?
We're on an internet forum, we must all act like we're ironic versions of St. Mark of Ephesus.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 06:05:31 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline biro

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2016, 06:12:01 PM »
Hopefully, the Turks do the right thing and shut the Phanar down.

Right...because in the event that a person thinks the Phanar is straying - it is in accord with Christian principles to hope that Muslims  "shut the Phanar down" rather than pray for their repentance and for the Lord to bless them, sanctify them and increase them in accordance with His will?

Why must we resort to such dramatics?   Can't we be charitable at all?

No.

Apparently you're not Orthodox unless you hate the EP.

Who needs bishops when you have the self-appointed gatekeepers of OC.net?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2016, 06:28:28 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2016, 06:34:15 PM »
Hopefully, the Turks do the right thing and shut the Phanar down.

Right...because in the event that a person thinks the Phanar is straying - it is in accord with Christian principles to hope that Muslims  "shut the Phanar down" rather than pray for their repentance and for the Lord to bless them, sanctify them and increase them in accordance with His will?

Why must we resort to such dramatics?   Can't we be charitable at all?

No.

Apparently you're not Orthodox unless you hate the EP.

Who needs bishops when you have the self-appointed gatekeepers of OC.net?

How was the antidoron today?

Offline Antonis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2016, 06:41:15 PM »
It is worth noting that our modern saints have spoken with one mind--across decades, ethnicities, and jurisdictions--regarding the current state of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It's not good.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #139 on: July 10, 2016, 06:54:27 PM »

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

So you must also remember that throughout the Balkans and the Levant, the Phanariots acted as the Turks' enforcers within the Church and often profited immensely from that role...
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 06:54:43 PM by Samn! »

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #140 on: July 10, 2016, 06:55:25 PM »
It's not funny, it's rather sad. The name of Jesus does not occur a single time in his speech.  Where the name "Christ" appears, it occurs either in the word "Christian" or on its own as part of an alternate name for the Church of Constantinople.   

From the link, he does say, "...I direct my mind, thought and eyes to you as my Father and Master, to whom – after God – I owe everything..."

From what I know of him, he seems a rather nice and caring man.  ...and I have "known" him for over a decade.

When I was in seminary, I had a professor who assigned us a project and then discussed our submissions the following week.  He singled out one of them, without identifying whose it was, to make a point.  In reading the assignment, he noticed that Christ wasn't really mentioned at all.  Christian stuff came up, sure, religious stuff.  But not Christ.  He spent a good amount of time discussing the importance of remembering Christ, proclaiming Christ, announcing Christ, even in our assignments.  He'd recommend to us that the name of Christ should appear at least once on each page, not as a formality, but in order that we could be sure that we were proclaiming Christ and the reader was hearing Christ.  Throughout the years, it is a lesson that has stayed with me, and it has changed the way I hear and give/gave homilies.  If you're not talking about Christ, what are you saying? 

His Eminence may be a nice and caring man, but it is disturbing that his inaugural homily as a bishop--as a teacher of the Church--had nothing to do with Christ. 

Yes, as you quoted, he does mention God...as a descriptive aside in a compliment to the EP.  I'm sorry to disagree with you, but it's just not enough from a bishop.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #141 on: July 10, 2016, 07:01:06 PM »

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

So you must also remember that throughout the Balkans and the Levant, the Phanariots acted as the Turks' enforcers within the Church and often profited immensely from that role...

Because what we Christians should strive for is revenge, instead of forgiveness.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #142 on: July 10, 2016, 07:02:36 PM »

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

So you must also remember that throughout the Balkans and the Levant, the Phanariots acted as the Turks' enforcers within the Church and often profited immensely from that role...

Because what we Christians should strive for is revenge, instead of forgiveness.


forgiveness is a very different thing than letting it happen again...
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2016, 07:06:31 PM »

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

So you must also remember that throughout the Balkans and the Levant, the Phanariots acted as the Turks' enforcers within the Church and often profited immensely from that role...

Because what we Christians should strive for is revenge, instead of forgiveness.


forgiveness is a very different thing than letting it happen again...

Oh, boy.

Before I became Orthodox, my mother said I should be a Methodist. I said no, because some of them don't have bishops.

I'm beginning to think the Orthodox don't either.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2016, 07:09:02 PM »
Before I became Orthodox, my mother said I should be a Methodist. I said no, because some of them don't have bishops.

I'm beginning to think the Orthodox don't either.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2016, 07:29:12 PM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2016, 07:45:30 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

Alkis--I was not trying to do anything other than to point out the dark side of Hellenism. Regarding the rightness of the 1821 War for Independence, my context is that my people--Bulgarians--also suffered under the Turks for about 500 years. The last 200 years or so, we also suffered under the Phanar, which was even worse emotionally because the Turks were Muslim and the Greeks were Orthodox Christians--same as we. So, I say categorically that nobody should live enslaved and has the right to fight off their masters. I will also say that Greeks, or any other nationality, should not be the object of dislike and hatred.

But, the Greeks and Hellenism is not all love and roses; the other side of the coin is as horrific as what the Mongols, Nazis, Turks and Isis have done. The Greeks in 1821 conducted extreme ethnic cleansing by eradicating the Turks from their lands. They did a smaller version of that against my people at various times: in 1903 by actively aiding the Turks (including a Greek bishop whop acted as a scout for the Ottoman troops), and by direct action at the end of Balkan wars, WWI and WWII.

Once again, I brought this up to inject some realism into this discussion as some of our posters are like Sgt Schultz (Hogans Heroes) and see nothing or hear nothing when it comes to anything other than positive about Constantinople, Greeks or Hellenism. That said, I do not discriminate against Greeks and even keep my mouth shut when I encounter the Gus Portokalos types amongst them. I even believe that in some matters such as philosophy, the ancient Greeks had covered all bases, that anything since is merely another variation on a theme. So, it is really complicated.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 08:01:37 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2016, 08:04:08 PM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople...

LOL.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #148 on: July 10, 2016, 09:08:32 PM »
Hopefully, the Turks do the right thing and shut the Phanar down.

Right...because in the event that a person thinks the Phanar is straying - it is in accord with Christian principles to hope that Muslims  "shut the Phanar down" rather than pray for their repentance and for the Lord to bless them, sanctify them and increase them in accordance with His will?

Why must we resort to such dramatics?   Can't we be charitable at all?

No.

Apparently you're not Orthodox unless you hate the EP.
or have a Megali idea sized martyr complex.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #149 on: July 10, 2016, 11:14:03 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

I am disgusted with your dirty little post. I am also surprised. Perhaps some one here who knows Metropolitan Elpidorphoros personally can back up this scatological image that you are promoting.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2016, 11:20:20 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

I am disgusted with your dirty little post. I am also surprised. Perhaps some one here who knows Metropolitan Elpidorphoros personally can back up this scatological image that you are promoting.

Metropolitan Elpidophoros of Bursa is a wonderful person and we should all thank God that we are worthy to live in his days because the world would be impoverished without him.  I love Metropolitan Elpidophoros of Bursa.  And Pope Francis.   

Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #151 on: July 11, 2016, 12:00:09 AM »
Google "Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?" in quotes. The original post of this thread seems to be part of a very odd little campaign....

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #152 on: July 11, 2016, 12:22:00 AM »
Which includes a number of posts made at a site called ecumenicalbuddhism.org, apparently.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #153 on: July 11, 2016, 12:27:38 AM »
Which includes a number of posts made at a site called ecumenicalbuddhism.org, apparently.

I think that site is just taking something from RSS feeds. But, in any case, it seems that Dn Kaisarios (Halki's librarian, in fact) created accounts in multiple forums to make this same post verbatim, then ghosted... in some of the other forums (not this one... I think), other new accounts were created to also talk up Met Elpidophoros. If you do the same search on Facebook, you'll find similar things....

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #154 on: July 11, 2016, 01:00:13 AM »
Well that's really weird that someone of such caliber from afar would come to the humble abode of OC.net to get our opinion, and somewhat flattering I suppose. Notably though the man never replied here in this thread. I'm not sure what that means.

At any rate, to be honest I think Orthodoxy would do well to dispense on any insistence of Hellenism. In the past, this has caused a number of problems, some of which others have already mentioned. In terms of those not yet mentioned, I think it often leads to the ignoring of much of Orthodoxy's Latin history and heritage before the schism. I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but it seems to me at least that Catholics have been far more proficient at reading up on Greek saints and Fathers before and shortly thereafter the schism and using them to their advantage, while Orthodox haven't done the same in kind with the Latin tradition. That puts us at an enormous disadvantage not only in ecumenism and theology, but also in any sort of missionary activity.

Another issue of course is the fact that I think the Hellenistic focus leads to some very artificial charges against Moscow. It's often said that Moscow is resentful of its place in the tier of Orthodox hierarchy because it is so large. Honestly though, I haven't yet to read any evidence of this supposed jealousy. I see the accusation often made, but never do I see it substantiated. Indeed, I often see it employed as a means to mischaracterize and diminish some of Moscow's more complex and in-depth objections to things. In other words, the accusation is often used as a strawman. Now don't get me wrong. I think Patriarch Kirill is a shill for Putin. But at least Patriarch Kirill has an Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology and primacy, which Metropolitan Elpidophoros apparently lacks. Unless the metropolitan issues a full retraction of his previous article and explains in detail why he thinks he was wrong to profess primus sine paribus, it would be difficult to fully respect his position as EP should he ascend to its throne, let alone accept him.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 01:03:13 AM by Rohzek »
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #155 on: July 11, 2016, 01:01:34 AM »
Which includes a number of posts made at a site called ecumenicalbuddhism.org, apparently.

I think that site is just taking something from RSS feeds. But, in any case, it seems that Dn Kaisarios (Halki's librarian, in fact) created accounts in multiple forums to make this same post verbatim, then ghosted... in some of the other forums (not this one... I think), other new accounts were created to also talk up Met Elpidophoros. If you do the same search on Facebook, you'll find similar things....

So, is this propaganda or focus group polling?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #156 on: July 11, 2016, 01:08:04 AM »
Rohzek,

Amid many shrill accusations....yours is a sober and insightful reply...which does not discount the issues at hand...but also does not seek to vilify.   

Thank you.   

« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 01:08:57 AM by Onesimus »

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #157 on: July 11, 2016, 01:15:19 AM »

So, is this propaganda or focus group polling?

Re-reading it, it seems more like propaganda. Perhaps it's useful to recall this: http://www.thenationalherald.com/92180/ . In any case, as it's almost inevitable that in the coming couple-few years the sees of Constantinople and America will need to be filled, we're probably going to be exposed to increasing amounts of oddball and tone-deaf campaigning from the circles around the two plausible bishops for either job...

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #158 on: July 11, 2016, 09:41:35 AM »

So, is this propaganda or focus group polling?

Re-reading it, it seems more like propaganda. Perhaps it's useful to recall this: http://www.thenationalherald.com/92180/ . In any case, as it's almost inevitable that in the coming couple-few years the sees of Constantinople and America will need to be filled, we're probably going to be exposed to increasing amounts of oddball and tone-deaf campaigning from the circles around the two plausible bishops for either job...

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #159 on: July 11, 2016, 10:17:15 AM »

So, is this propaganda or focus group polling?

Re-reading it, it seems more like propaganda. Perhaps it's useful to recall this: http://www.thenationalherald.com/92180/ . In any case, as it's almost inevitable that in the coming couple-few years the sees of Constantinople and America will need to be filled, we're probably going to be exposed to increasing amounts of oddball and tone-deaf campaigning from the circles around the two plausible bishops for either job...

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


Yeah, it's not like we can get out and vote on this or have a Revolution.  People can't even really vote with their feet in a lot areas because some areas barely have a parish if they have any at all.

So, I was thinking how the subject of this thread looks like any other corporate guy angling for promotion.  That article says they haven't been paid for three months, which begs the question of where do all the monies go that they collect from each parish here in America?  I assumed part of it went overseas, but I don't really know. 

Anyway, no wonder he is looking for a new job, Machiavellian / Byzantine internet campaigns notwithstanding:  http://www.historytoday.com/michael-antonucci/war-other-means-legacy-byzantium
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2016, 08:45:48 PM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

Alkis--I was not trying to do anything other than to point out the dark side of Hellenism. Regarding the rightness of the 1821 War for Independence, my context is that my people--Bulgarians--also suffered under the Turks for about 500 years. The last 200 years or so, we also suffered under the Phanar, which was even worse emotionally because the Turks were Muslim and the Greeks were Orthodox Christians--same as we. So, I say categorically that nobody should live enslaved and has the right to fight off their masters. I will also say that Greeks, or any other nationality, should not be the object of dislike and hatred.

But, the Greeks and Hellenism is not all love and roses; the other side of the coin is as horrific as what the Mongols, Nazis, Turks and Isis have done. The Greeks in 1821 conducted extreme ethnic cleansing by eradicating the Turks from their lands. They did a smaller version of that against my people at various times: in 1903 by actively aiding the Turks (including a Greek bishop whop acted as a scout for the Ottoman troops), and by direct action at the end of Balkan wars, WWI and WWII.

Once again, I brought this up to inject some realism into this discussion as some of our posters are like Sgt Schultz (Hogans Heroes) and see nothing or hear nothing when it comes to anything other than positive about Constantinople, Greeks or Hellenism. That said, I do not discriminate against Greeks and even keep my mouth shut when I encounter the Gus Portokalos types amongst them. I even believe that in some matters such as philosophy, the ancient Greeks had covered all bases, that anything since is merely another variation on a theme. So, it is really complicated.
just a point of order that underlines what you bring up about the Greeks-they started their War of Independence not in Greece, but in Romania.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #161 on: July 11, 2016, 09:43:27 PM »
It's not funny, it's rather sad. The name of Jesus does not occur a single time in his speech.  Where the name "Christ" appears, it occurs either in the word "Christian" or on its own as part of an alternate name for the Church of Constantinople.   

From the link, he does say, "...I direct my mind, thought and eyes to you as my Father and Master, to whom – after God – I owe everything..."

From what I know of him, he seems a rather nice and caring man.  ...and I have "known" him for over a decade.

When I was in seminary, I had a professor who assigned us a project and then discussed our submissions the following week.  He singled out one of them, without identifying whose it was, to make a point.  In reading the assignment, he noticed that Christ wasn't really mentioned at all.  Christian stuff came up, sure, religious stuff.  But not Christ.  He spent a good amount of time discussing the importance of remembering Christ, proclaiming Christ, announcing Christ, even in our assignments.  He'd recommend to us that the name of Christ should appear at least once on each page, not as a formality, but in order that we could be sure that we were proclaiming Christ and the reader was hearing Christ.  Throughout the years, it is a lesson that has stayed with me, and it has changed the way I hear and give/gave homilies.  If you're not talking about Christ, what are you saying? 

His Eminence may be a nice and caring man, but it is disturbing that his inaugural homily as a bishop--as a teacher of the Church--had nothing to do with Christ. 

Yes, as you quoted, he does mention God...as a descriptive aside in a compliment to the EP.  I'm sorry to disagree with you, but it's just not enough from a bishop.

So true. Something I've valued so much in many contemporary Orthodox addresses and papers is that they are full of Christ, Apostles, and Fathers. How disappointing by contrast to read this ordination address.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #162 on: July 11, 2016, 09:50:10 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

I think you might be taking too rigid a view of 'panayios' (or 'panayia') and related forms, since it -- like any combinations with 'pas' -- is actually quite a nuanced word in Greek. The English "All Holy" is far from being up to the task.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Opus118

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #163 on: July 12, 2016, 01:09:14 AM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

Alkis--I was not trying to do anything other than to point out the dark side of Hellenism. Regarding the rightness of the 1821 War for Independence, my context is that my people--Bulgarians--also suffered under the Turks for about 500 years. The last 200 years or so, we also suffered under the Phanar, which was even worse emotionally because the Turks were Muslim and the Greeks were Orthodox Christians--same as we. So, I say categorically that nobody should live enslaved and has the right to fight off their masters. I will also say that Greeks, or any other nationality, should not be the object of dislike and hatred.

But, the Greeks and Hellenism is not all love and roses; the other side of the coin is as horrific as what the Mongols, Nazis, Turks and Isis have done. The Greeks in 1821 conducted extreme ethnic cleansing by eradicating the Turks from their lands. They did a smaller version of that against my people at various times: in 1903 by actively aiding the Turks (including a Greek bishop whop acted as a scout for the Ottoman troops), and by direct action at the end of Balkan wars, WWI and WWII.

Once again, I brought this up to inject some realism into this discussion as some of our posters are like Sgt Schultz (Hogans Heroes) and see nothing or hear nothing when it comes to anything other than positive about Constantinople, Greeks or Hellenism. That said, I do not discriminate against Greeks and even keep my mouth shut when I encounter the Gus Portokalos types amongst them. I even believe that in some matters such as philosophy, the ancient Greeks had covered all bases, that anything since is merely another variation on a theme. So, it is really complicated.
just a point of order that underlines what you bring up about the Greeks-they started their War of Independence not in Greece, but in Romania.

And the liberation of Europe started in North Africa.

My purpose in posting was to thank you and Onesimus for responding to my post.I assumed that my information came from here, but it could have been the Orthodox Observer  which isn't helpful even with google site specific searches. I think the time limit remembrance dealt with the duration of the Erdogan prime ministership which is no longer relevant as it is more like a dictatorship.

According to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), 26 people applied for Turkish citizenship by 2013 under expedited rules and it was granted for 21. Only Metropolitan Nikitas identified himself among this group. I did discover that he has a Facebook fanclub, but I will have nothing to do with Facebook.

The National Herald has much higher numbers, but I do not trust their reporting.

I think it is high time that we have a Chalcedonian Armenian Ecumenical Patriarch, they have been Patriarchs between the 5th - 12th century. I am possibly curious as to how Turkey will respond, or maybe I am leery.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #164 on: July 12, 2016, 09:33:05 AM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

Alkis--I was not trying to do anything other than to point out the dark side of Hellenism. Regarding the rightness of the 1821 War for Independence, my context is that my people--Bulgarians--also suffered under the Turks for about 500 years. The last 200 years or so, we also suffered under the Phanar, which was even worse emotionally because the Turks were Muslim and the Greeks were Orthodox Christians--same as we. So, I say categorically that nobody should live enslaved and has the right to fight off their masters. I will also say that Greeks, or any other nationality, should not be the object of dislike and hatred.

But, the Greeks and Hellenism is not all love and roses; the other side of the coin is as horrific as what the Mongols, Nazis, Turks and Isis have done. The Greeks in 1821 conducted extreme ethnic cleansing by eradicating the Turks from their lands. They did a smaller version of that against my people at various times: in 1903 by actively aiding the Turks (including a Greek bishop whop acted as a scout for the Ottoman troops), and by direct action at the end of Balkan wars, WWI and WWII.

Once again, I brought this up to inject some realism into this discussion as some of our posters are like Sgt Schultz (Hogans Heroes) and see nothing or hear nothing when it comes to anything other than positive about Constantinople, Greeks or Hellenism. That said, I do not discriminate against Greeks and even keep my mouth shut when I encounter the Gus Portokalos types amongst them. I even believe that in some matters such as philosophy, the ancient Greeks had covered all bases, that anything since is merely another variation on a theme. So, it is really complicated.
just a point of order that underlines what you bring up about the Greeks-they started their War of Independence not in Greece, but in Romania.

And the liberation of Europe started in North Africa.
Exactly my point-not the liberation of North Africa, as Europe insisted on occupying it as colonies.
My purpose in posting was to thank you and Onesimus for responding to my post.I assumed that my information came from here, but it could have been the Orthodox Observer  which isn't helpful even with google site specific searches. I think the time limit remembrance dealt with the duration of the Erdogan prime ministership which is no longer relevant as it is more like a dictatorship.

According to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), 26 people applied for Turkish citizenship by 2013 under expedited rules and it was granted for 21. Only Metropolitan Nikitas identified himself among this group. I did discover that he has a Facebook fanclub, but I will have nothing to do with Facebook.

The National Herald has much higher numbers, but I do not trust their reporting.

I think it is high time that we have a Chalcedonian Armenian Ecumenical Patriarch, they have been Patriarchs between the 5th - 12th century. I am possibly curious as to how Turkey will respond, or maybe I am leery.

not as leery I should think as the Turks are of the Armenians, who more than held their own with Azerbaijan (and before).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 09:33:50 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #165 on: July 12, 2016, 09:48:04 AM »
How many Chalcedonian Armenians must there be over the entire world, if I may ask?  :o
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Offline Alkis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #166 on: July 12, 2016, 11:06:52 AM »
A concrete example of what I'm talking about that I have probably brought up in the past somewhere or other on this forum... A couple years ago, I attended a lecture given by Met  Stéphane, the EP's bishop of Estonia, who is culturally French but of Greek ancestry. He explained the legitimacy of his episcopate there (over and against his Estonia-born, Estonian-speaking MP rival), despite his lack of a connection to Estonia or knowledge of the language, in terms of the universality of his and the EP's Hellenism... meaning their Greekness. In all fairness, since then I've heard him speak on more concrete pastoral matters where he was actually quite good, but this particular cultural blinder is extremely damaging.

And now who is being "phyletist," when implicit in your post a bishop must be the same race as the predominant one?


Quote
Quote
"Hellenism" does not mean "ethnic chauvinism," but the universal intellectual and political culture that is sometimes called the "Greco-Roman" values of the Western world... In other words, His Eminence is appealing to the widely-known fact of our society's universal basis in Hellenism...

I think this assumption should be examined using the French philosopher Rémi Brague's understanding of the West's relationship to classical Greek culture in his book La Voie Romaine (in English translated as something like "Eccentric Culture"). For Brague, the West's capacity for self-criticism and self-awareness comes from a productive awareness of the fact that neither of its initial cultural foundations, conveniently labelled "Athens" and "Jerusalem" were located within itself... thus its literal 'eccentricity'. In his view, Byzantium was unable to attain the same sort of openness and self-criticism (and thus can't be considered 'Western') precisely because its relationship to its cultural roots in the Classical world was self-referential....

I do not think this gentleman's inquiry could be very relevant to my post. Since whatever Western European world Athens could be said to be "outside of" must be Gothic or Celtic before Charlemagne, and so Athens would rightfully be less "outside them" and more "growing toward them, if later than other areas." Further, the West's "self-criticism and self-awareness" are modernist accretions to or departures from Hellenism, and so again it is less the case that Athens is "outside the modern West" than that Europe was shifting on its established Athenian foundations. In both cases, the fact of our Graeco-Roman intellectual and political roots is not affected, merely placed in a chronologically surrounding context.

And what would be your alternative explanation? That Western society is a purely artificial invention, concocted and executed in a moment, with no roots to grow from or shoulders to stand on? That Western society is instead a Slavic outgrowth (whatever of Slavic intellectual and political and religious values can be considered to owe nothing to the Greeks)? Bizarre.

The concept of Hellenism is not the claim that the Greeks gave birth to the world -- not at all. It is the observation that around the world peoples have found the Greek intellectual and political bequest a comparatively salubrious combination with their own needs and goals. Multiple societies had left a mark of some size and usefulness, but Hellenism was able to draw all kinds of ethnicities and schools of thought into a flourishing and lasting oikumene, a foundation for growth of an evidently permanent, in earthly terms, and progressive world civilization.

Meanwhile, the Christian religion has been bound up in some measure with Hellenism from the Evangelists on, and plainly profited from it, articulating itself in Hellenic terms and spreading quickly throughout Hellenized lands.

This fact of Greek intellectual and political roots and Orthodox religious roots deserves, not our quibbling and demurrals, but respect and rediscovery as a mirror and anchor in these blind tumultuous times.

You must not be familiar with history. Hellenism has another side. We will start with the Greek war for independence in 1921. Did you know that what ISIS has done this year was done by Hellenists against the resident Turks? I will just quote this, a relatively benign source: "According to Steven Runciman, author of a history of the Greek Orthodox Church, "The great fathers of the Church, such as Basil, would have been horrified by the gallant[!] Peloponnesian bishops who raised the standard of revolt in 1821".(Note 23) This was not a war of Greek independence or liberation, but a war of extermination against the Turks and other Muslims, and the main instigators of it were the Greek Orthodox Christian clerics."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.greek/OZMiLGbnZYc

Our independance war against Ottomans started at 1821. We were under their muslim terrorism for more than 400 years... Do you mean that we must had patience and live under the Turkish rule? And our right for freedom? Turkish did to us what ISIS does in Syria. I have Turkish friends, I love them, I pray for their country but they committed so many sins against us and other Balkan countries...

Alkis--I was not trying to do anything other than to point out the dark side of Hellenism. Regarding the rightness of the 1821 War for Independence, my context is that my people--Bulgarians--also suffered under the Turks for about 500 years. The last 200 years or so, we also suffered under the Phanar, which was even worse emotionally because the Turks were Muslim and the Greeks were Orthodox Christians--same as we. So, I say categorically that nobody should live enslaved and has the right to fight off their masters. I will also say that Greeks, or any other nationality, should not be the object of dislike and hatred.

But, the Greeks and Hellenism is not all love and roses; the other side of the coin is as horrific as what the Mongols, Nazis, Turks and Isis have done. The Greeks in 1821 conducted extreme ethnic cleansing by eradicating the Turks from their lands. They did a smaller version of that against my people at various times: in 1903 by actively aiding the Turks (including a Greek bishop whop acted as a scout for the Ottoman troops), and by direct action at the end of Balkan wars, WWI and WWII.

Once again, I brought this up to inject some realism into this discussion as some of our posters are like Sgt Schultz (Hogans Heroes) and see nothing or hear nothing when it comes to anything other than positive about Constantinople, Greeks or Hellenism. That said, I do not discriminate against Greeks and even keep my mouth shut when I encounter the Gus Portokalos types amongst them. I even believe that in some matters such as philosophy, the ancient Greeks had covered all bases, that anything since is merely another variation on a theme. So, it is really complicated.

I am not angry with you, it is all ok and you are right in some of your statements. Yes nationalism, generally, is a great mental illness. My complaint here was that you said that we were like ISIS against Turks. But Turks burnt our churches, rapped our women, killed so many people, tried to islamize children and others with violence, they obliged us to pay that tax that is proposed in Quran against the "unbelievers", convert that great church of Holy Wisdom of God "Hagia Sofia" into a mosque, etc... Isn't this terrorism? What we might have to do? Not to fight against them? Yes I know that our Lord Jesus Christ said to suffer for him and to have patience and not to kill even in defence. But our world is so cruel and is dipped in sin so it is so difficult and hard to follow this commandment. :/ And Turks didn't stop there. They continued to attack to us (in the genocide of Pontiacs, Greeks that lived in Minor Asia in 1922 etc...) and they continue even today to provoke us.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #167 on: July 12, 2016, 11:10:40 AM »
How many Chalcedonian Armenians must there be over the entire world, if I may ask?  :o
By that I mean Orthodox, there are obviously many Armenian RC's.
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Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #168 on: July 13, 2016, 08:53:29 AM »

So, is this propaganda or focus group polling?

Re-reading it, it seems more like propaganda. Perhaps it's useful to recall this: http://www.thenationalherald.com/92180/ . In any case, as it's almost inevitable that in the coming couple-few years the sees of Constantinople and America will need to be filled, we're probably going to be exposed to increasing amounts of oddball and tone-deaf campaigning from the circles around the two plausible bishops for either job...

I've read  a bit about the history of Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America... Seems like Ecumenical Patriarch needs a loyal Primate of the GOARCH. Taking into consideration that Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros is known to make efforts to succeed Demetrios as the future Archbishop of America, Patriarch Bartholomew has a few option to choose.
There is no reason to change Elder Archbishop Demetrios cause he is loyal to the Phanar, and for Met. Elpidophoros taking this position will be just a stepping-stone for the throne of Constantinople. But in the case of  Elpidophoros' election there would be an imminent threat of another schism in Orthodox World because of his "Primus sine paribus" ideas. Even now this teaching is more of a hindrance than a help for the Phanar, since it provides grounds for accusation in papism.
On the other hand, isn't it a better option to get Elpidophoros Lambriniadis as Archbishop of America (or even the future Primate of united American Orthodox Church)? At least his "Primus sine paribus" would sound not from Ecumenical patriarchate itself... May be it's better to leave America (on paper only) in order to escape schism in the Orthodox World and retain peaceful relations with Antiochian, Bulgarian, Georgian, Russian and Serbian Churches? And what about the united Ukrainian Church under the jurisdiction of Constantinople?

Probably, something was discussed during the Patriarch Bartholomew's visit to Halki (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://fanarion.blogspot.ru/2016/07/blog-post_37.html)...
Note that His Holiness has already met Archbishop Demetrios at Crete. They con-celebrated the Divine Liturgy and obviously  had an opportunity to talk...

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #169 on: July 13, 2016, 10:01:54 AM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

I think you might be taking too rigid a view of 'panayios' (or 'panayia') and related forms, since it -- like any combinations with 'pas' -- is actually quite a nuanced word in Greek. The English "All Holy" is far from being up to the task.

OK, I will bite. Are you saying that "all holy" is the best approximation in English to what is really meant in Greek? If so, why can't the translators use another expression that does not have the connotation that "all holy" has in English? I am sure that there are learned theologians and linguists in the GOAA, for example, who can come up with a less offensive translation, no?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #170 on: July 13, 2016, 10:07:37 AM »

So, is this propaganda or focus group polling?

Re-reading it, it seems more like propaganda. Perhaps it's useful to recall this: http://www.thenationalherald.com/92180/ . In any case, as it's almost inevitable that in the coming couple-few years the sees of Constantinople and America will need to be filled, we're probably going to be exposed to increasing amounts of oddball and tone-deaf campaigning from the circles around the two plausible bishops for either job...

On the other hand, isn't it a better option to get Elpidophoros Lambriniadis as Archbishop of America (or even the future Primate of united American Orthodox Church)?

And what about the united Ukrainian Church under the jurisdiction of Constantinople?

There will not be an administratively united, autonomous or autocephalous church of the United States of America if His Eminence is elected as its head. And, there will be no peace in World Orthodoxy if the only legal Orthodox Church in the Ukraine is under Constantinople.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #171 on: July 13, 2016, 03:32:53 PM »
How many Chalcedonian Armenians must there be over the entire world, if I may ask?  :o
Until the massacres a century ago, quite a lot. I know a number in Diaspora.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #172 on: July 13, 2016, 03:34:44 PM »
I think for understanding Met Elpidophoros' worldview, this speech-- http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=1315&tla=en -- is a key document.  It approaches something more like Phanarianity than Christianity...

I was disgusted with his brown nosing of the Patriarch throughout his little disgustingly servile complaisance and fawning that was supposed to be his homily. It is no wonder that he calls his idol god "first without equals." And, what is it with the heretical phrase "All Holiness"?

I think you might be taking too rigid a view of 'panayios' (or 'panayia') and related forms, since it -- like any combinations with 'pas' -- is actually quite a nuanced word in Greek. The English "All Holy" is far from being up to the task.

OK, I will bite. Are you saying that "all holy" is the best approximation in English to what is really meant in Greek? If so, why can't the translators use another expression that does not have the connotation that "all holy" has in English? I am sure that there are learned theologians and linguists in the GOAA, for example, who can come up with a less offensive translation, no?
There are. They come up with the offensive ones, however, so people say "leave it in Greek."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2016, 03:35:58 PM »
How many Chalcedonian Armenians must there be over the entire world, if I may ask?  :o
Until the massacres a century ago, quite a lot. I know a number in Diaspora.
Interesting, I didn't know that part of history (although I recall finding canons from an Ecumenical Council much later than Chalcedon specifically adressing Armenian customs). Were they under the MP? Did they worship in Armenian?
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2016, 03:54:45 PM »

Interesting, I didn't know that part of history (although I recall finding canons from an Ecumenical Council much later than Chalcedon specifically adressing Armenian customs). Were they under the MP? Did they worship in Armenian?

I have (had?) a pdf somewhere of part of an Armenian translation of the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom..... so yes, they worshiped in Armenian but according to the mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodox rituals. Most Armenian Chalcedonians lived in what's now Southern and Eastern Turkey rather than today's Armenia and were under the EP and Antioch (who, until the genocide  of 1915 had bishops in Amid/Diyarbakr and Erzurum whose flocks worshiped mostly in Syriac and Armenian).

In the middle ages-- especially ca. 10th and 11th centuries, a significant proportion of the Armenian population of Anatolia and even Armenia proper was Chalcedonian. If you read Russian (or are patient with Google-translate), the article in the Pravoslavnaia Entsiklopediia is well worth a read: http://www.pravenc.ru/text/76122.html
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 03:55:51 PM by Samn! »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #175 on: July 13, 2016, 08:01:17 PM »
How many Chalcedonian Armenians must there be over the entire world, if I may ask?  :o
Until the massacres a century ago, quite a lot. I know a number in Diaspora.
Interesting, I didn't know that part of history (although I recall finding canons from an Ecumenical Council much later than Chalcedon specifically adressing Armenian customs). Were they under the MP? Did they worship in Armenian?
No, they were under the EP. In medieval times there was a large number in the Church of Georgia. They were/are called Hai-Horom. They worshipped in Armenian, but at times parts had to be done in Greek (e.g. the Trisagion, to make sure the "Monophysite additions" were not present). We have a thread on them somewhere here.

What do you know-they have their own wiki article now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayhurum
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 08:25:37 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Fr.Kaisarios

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #177 on: July 14, 2016, 09:40:50 AM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

No, not really. I mean some of his claims to authority and the jurisdiction tiff between it and Moscow might raise some eyebrows, but beyond that nothing really. What's most concerning are the "binding" claims that the EP has put forth against those who won't attend Crete. That, and the strange theology put forth by his presumed successor.

I'd like to answer those who blames EP for "papism"... In my opinion, Patriarch Bartholomew just want Orthodox Church to be strong. His only goal is Unity.  We should be able to discuss and solve any controversial issues in order to prevent schisms.
And Metropolitan Elpidophoros is not an enemy of Moscow patriarchate. He may had written things they didn't like, but he is concerned of maintaining peaceful relations with them. Even friends may have different opinions about the same thing! As it seems to me, there are other people who deliberately escalate conflict with the ROC. For example, Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) is among those who have asked HAH to grant Autocephaly to the Ukrainian Church. And even Greek media write about this: http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=96407&colid=37&catid=40&dt=2016-07-03

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #178 on: July 14, 2016, 09:45:12 AM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

No, not really. I mean some of his claims to authority and the jurisdiction tiff between it and Moscow might raise some eyebrows, but beyond that nothing really. What's most concerning are the "binding" claims that the EP has put forth against those who won't attend Crete. That, and the strange theology put forth by his presumed successor.

I'd like to answer those who blames EP for "papism"... In my opinion, Patriarch Bartholomew just want Orthodox Church to be strong. His only goal is Unity.  We should be able to discuss and solve any controversial issues in order to prevent schisms.
And Metropolitan Elpidophoros is not an enemy of Moscow patriarchate. He may had written things they didn't like, but he is concerned of maintaining peaceful relations with them. Even friends may have different opinions about the same thing! As it seems to me, there are other people who deliberately escalate conflict with the ROC. For example, Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) is among those who have asked HAH to grant Autocephaly to the Ukrainian Church. And even Greek media write about this: http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=96407&colid=37&catid=40&dt=2016-07-03
that will most definitely split the Church, and not just Phanar-Moscow.

It is not that Moscow did not like Primus Sine Partibus, but that it teaches outright heresy-a phanariot Pastor Aeternus.

And HAH has misguided notions of strength and unity.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 09:47:47 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #179 on: July 15, 2016, 11:30:22 AM »

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


I'm not so sure... I think the tone-deafness runs incredibly deep in that subculture. e.g., http://www.thomasnelson.com/bartholomew

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2016, 11:55:15 AM »

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


I'm not so sure... I think the tone-deafness runs incredibly deep in that subculture. e.g., http://www.thomasnelson.com/bartholomew

What a curious list...


    Pope Francis
    Pope Benedict XVI
    Rowan Williams
    Rabbi David Rosen
    George Stephanopoulos
    Jane Goodall
    Joe Biden, Jr.
    Al Gore, Jr.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2016, 12:21:18 PM »