Author Topic: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 26571 times)

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Offline Fr.Kaisarios

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It's recently become apparent that the World Orthodoxy is being torn apart by controversy. It is already clear that the Pan-Orthodox Council has become a mere formality and will not bring any significant fruit. Islamic extremists are killing Christians, Islamist authoritarian regimes are threatening freedom of worship for other faiths, taking away their property and even churches.

Against this background, the question of who will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch after His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is being raised more and more frequently in private conversations. And His Eminence Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) is among the most mentioned possible candidates . Will he be able to take responsibility for the fate of Orthodoxy and to solve the problems facing the Phanar (with God's help)? Let's try to evaluate his chances for election.

Indeed, the Pan-Orthodox Council, which was referred by the Ecumenical Patriarch as a historical event and its main achievement, has been criticized by conservatives as well as by modernists. Of course, the very fact of the meeting is a big step forward, but it is necessary to think about whether we will be able to go further and to revive the tradition of conciliarity in the universal scale.
Will next Councils be more meaningful and fruitful? Undoubtedly, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' experience of serving as general secretary of the Holy Synod is priceless, as well as his thorouh familiarity with the hard and elaborate work  on finalizing agenda and development of a clear pastoral vision of the most complex theological and ecclesiological issues.

Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Of course, this is also necessary to populate the Phanar with new excellent clergy who share these ideas and are ready to work tirelessly for the unity of Orthodoxy. There is already a lot of such people in Metropolitan Elpidophoros' inner circle. These are the very faithful people who  will contribute to the prosperity of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and attract new believers from over the world.

It is also necessary to ensure further succession and the highest level of training of the clergy. Of course, I mean the opening of the seminary at the Holy Trinity Monastery on Halki. And  negotiability and  comparative youthfulness of His Eminence are his additional trump cards as a possible Patriarch in this issue. Perhaps, these are qualities that will be decisive since they may be helpful in convincing the Turkish authorities that the EP's activity will be predictable for many decades and won't become a threat to Turkey's national interests.

There's a rumor that the very abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery don't mind to use  patriarchal dignity to make educational process  here - within the walls  that've already become home to him,- finally resumed.

Actually, why not? His Eminence has a rare combination of energy, practical experience, spiritual and theological maturity. I guess he really would be able to protect Orthodoxy and the high position of the Constantinople Patriarchate from all threats and attacks. What do you think about this?

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2016, 03:52:12 PM »
Well, I have no problems with him except his belief in primus sine paribus. That's not historical. It is also based off of the very iffy notion that primacy is a theological necessity and must rest with the bishop. One only has to look at the accepted norms of the Anglo-Saxon Church in Orthodoxy before the Norman invasion to realize how false this notion is. Primacy there laid with lay people, councils of monks, etc. This by no means undermined the necessity of the laying of hands of bishops. However, it does call into question the necessity that a bishop have any form of primacy. As far as I can tell, it isn't theologically dictated, but rather a very common sociological and political norm. Keep in mind that Moscow went on for centuries without a patriarch. If Metropolitan Elpidophoros insists on the primus sine paribus and assumes the EP throne, chances are that he will start a schism and most of Orthodoxy won't follow him.

Other than that, the other qualifications you outlined make him a great candidate.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:13:33 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2016, 04:05:40 PM »
Isa-atha!  Come, Isa! 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:05:53 PM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 04:05:50 PM »
"Primus sine paribus" is wrong and if Met Elpidophoros becomes Patriarch and continues to push this distorted idea he will foment schism. Without a change of heart on this question, Met Elpidophoros will be a disaster.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate's pre-eminence was based on its location at the heart of an empire that doesn't exist anymore. It is now confined to a small neighborhood in Istanbul.

It's time to move on.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:19:54 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2016, 04:11:05 PM »
Assumes there will continue to be an EP. Also why would any single person have the "responsibility for the fate of Orthodox".

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2016, 05:03:47 PM »
The Church already lost one Patriarchate to the "primus sine paribus" theory. Let's hope it won't come to that again.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2016, 05:15:19 PM »
I don't get "primus sine paribus", is it somehow similar to the notion of universal jurisdiction? Why on Earth would someone want some kind of Phanar Papacy today? At least Old Rome tried to disguise it theologically...
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2016, 05:34:50 PM »
I don't get "primus sine paribus", is it somehow similar to the notion of universal jurisdiction? Why on Earth would someone want some kind of Phanar Papacy today? At least Old Rome tried to disguise it theologically...

No we don't need a E.P. Pope, I use to think this was all just silly conspiracy talk, now maybe the Old Calendarists were right all along, that the whole time that the E.P. wanted to become a Greek Catholic Church, not a Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 05:45:49 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 06:06:53 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been involved way too much with the ecumenical movement IMO but the Old Calendarists are rather hasty and exaggerated in their critics to the relationship between the Orthodox Church and the Papacy. HAH has great relations with the CoE as well and no one ever said he would become part of the Anglican Communion. That's all I think I can say without risking sending this topic to the private fora.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 06:10:24 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 06:20:34 PM »
The Ecumenical Patriarchate has been involved way too much with the ecumenical movement IMO but the Old Calendarists are rather hasty and exaggerated in their critics to the relationship between the Orthodox Church and the Papacy. HAH has great relations with the CoE as well and no one ever said he would become part of the Anglican Communion. That's all I think I can say without risking sending this topic to the private fora.

I would just point out that the Anglican Church does not have 30 million members of the Eastern Rite and Rome does.

Offline WPM

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 06:41:10 PM »
I could attend a Russian ROCOR parish but its too far away.
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 08:20:48 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 08:26:11 PM »
I could attend a Russian ROCOR parish but its too far away.

But my heart belongs to ROCOR.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2016, 09:13:39 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

No, not really. I mean some of his claims to authority and the jurisdiction tiff between it and Moscow might raise some eyebrows, but beyond that nothing really. What's most concerning are the "binding" claims that the EP has put forth against those who won't attend Crete. That, and the strange theology put forth by his presumed successor.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2016, 10:35:49 AM »

You can't but love this Pope!  #PopeFrancis


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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2016, 12:52:30 PM »
Are you for real?  Or just another made up internet persona with a political / propaganda agenda?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2016, 01:42:05 PM »

You can't but love this Pope!  #PopeFrancis


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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2016, 04:00:14 PM »
Yes he would be wonderful. At last we could have someone to surpass Meletios!
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2016, 06:56:55 PM »
Yes.

Heaven help us.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2016, 06:59:57 PM »
Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals)
IOW HE will bring the Phanar into official heresy and HE as Ethnarch can bring it out of Orthodox Communion into the ranks of heretics with the Vatican and Protestants.
So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" .
The statement of Moscow stands as one of the most eloquent testimonies to Orthodox Ecclesiology, while the barkings of Bursa constitute one of the more convoluted exposition of heresy trying to hide itself and pass off its manifest errors as the Gospel Truth.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:07:41 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2016, 07:06:47 PM »
The Church already lost one Patriarchate to the "primus sine paribus" theory. Let's hope it won't come to that again.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2016, 07:11:15 PM »

You can't but love this Pope!  #PopeFrancis


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I've actually been to Tamper (it used to have a Lenin Museum), but unfortunately not yet Moscow.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2016, 08:04:52 PM »
It's recently become apparent that the World Orthodoxy is being torn apart by controversy. It is already clear that the Pan-Orthodox Council has become a mere formality and will not bring any significant fruit. Islamic extremists are killing Christians, Islamist authoritarian regimes are threatening freedom of worship for other faiths, taking away their property and even churches.

Against this background, the question of who will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch after His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is being raised more and more frequently in private conversations. And His Eminence Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) is among the most mentioned possible candidates . Will he be able to take responsibility for the fate of Orthodoxy and to solve the problems facing the Phanar (with God's help)? Let's try to evaluate his chances for election.

Indeed, the Pan-Orthodox Council, which was referred by the Ecumenical Patriarch as a historical event and its main achievement, has been criticized by conservatives as well as by modernists. Of course, the very fact of the meeting is a big step forward, but it is necessary to think about whether we will be able to go further and to revive the tradition of conciliarity in the universal scale.
Will next Councils be more meaningful and fruitful? Undoubtedly, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' experience of serving as general secretary of the Holy Synod is priceless, as well as his thorouh familiarity with the hard and elaborate work  on finalizing agenda and development of a clear pastoral vision of the most complex theological and ecclesiological issues.

Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Of course, this is also necessary to populate the Phanar with new excellent clergy who share these ideas and are ready to work tirelessly for the unity of Orthodoxy. There is already a lot of such people in Metropolitan Elpidophoros' inner circle. These are the very faithful people who  will contribute to the prosperity of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and attract new believers from over the world.

It is also necessary to ensure further succession and the highest level of training of the clergy. Of course, I mean the opening of the seminary at the Holy Trinity Monastery on Halki. And  negotiability and  comparative youthfulness of His Eminence are his additional trump cards as a possible Patriarch in this issue. Perhaps, these are qualities that will be decisive since they may be helpful in convincing the Turkish authorities that the EP's activity will be predictable for many decades and won't become a threat to Turkey's national interests.

There's a rumor that the very abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery don't mind to use  patriarchal dignity to make educational process  here - within the walls  that've already become home to him,- finally resumed.

Actually, why not? His Eminence has a rare combination of energy, practical experience, spiritual and theological maturity. I guess he really would be able to protect Orthodoxy and the high position of the Constantinople Patriarchate from all threats and attacks. What do you think about this?

I believe if that His Eminence were to succeed the Ecumenical Patriarch, if he tried to push forward the primus sine paribus agenda you outlined, and in particular attempted to unilaterally take control lf the Orthodox churches in North America and the Diaspora, and unilaterally conclude ecumenical pacts (for example, if he were to unilaterally restore communion with Rome), it is very likely he would wind up like Nestorius.

Based on the precedent set by the Council of Ephesus, any autocephalous archbishop has the authority to convene an ecumenical council for the purpose of deposing any other autocephalous archbishop, and indeed, the convening archbishop appears to have very broad latitude as to rules of procedure and whether or not the accused can even speak in his defense (see Chalcedon, from whoch the Metropolitan of Bursa extrapolates, using Article 28, much of his erroneous primus sine paribus ecclesiology).

If an Ecumenical Patriarch were deposed, by, for example, an ecumenical council convened by Moscow or Antioch, it is interesting to consider, in the absence of an Emperor to enforce the decrees of the council, how easy it would be for his successor to be enthroned.  I expect that if His Eminence did become the Ecumemical Patriarch, and did do the things you imply he ought to do, he would be deposed by a council driven by Moscow (and perhaps led by Antioch, for aesthetic reasons); the Athonite monks and certain conservative factions like the monasteries of Elder Ephrem in GoArch would likely support his deposition and accept his replacement, whereas GoArch, the Finns and non-MP Estonians, and the Russian emigres and Ukrainians in the diaspora under the EP who would otherwise be under Moscow, would probably object to his replacement, and the possibility exists some autocephalous churches, perhaps Jerusalem, Cyprus or Alexandria, might also dissent...however, I am inclined to believe most if not all autocepahlous primates would back his replacement, since taking unilateral action on the assumption of an authority held primus sine paribus is a threat to the authority of every autocephalous Eastern Orthodox church.

So certainly, at least the crown jewell of the EP, Mount Athos, would accept his replacement.  And the offer of autocephaly to the Church of Finland, ACROD, the Church of Estonia (EP) and so on might well be enough to turn the tide against him.  It would be very unwise for any bishop in any country with friendly relations with Russia to oppose a Moscow led council in this manner; they could likewise be deposed and replaced with greater ease.

It shpuld be noted that there would be no happy ending to such a scenario: in both cases where an Ecumenical Council deposed a sitting autocephalous patriarch, a permanent schism resulted. 

~

Theere would be two potential disasters if His Eminence were to become the Ecumenical Patriarch: the nightmarish meccessity of his removal, as outlined above, could well cause a permanent and destructive schism; in addition, unilateral actions on his part based on his perceoved (and erroneous) misconception of his pastoral authority might result in a massive setback in the process of ecumenical reconciliation.  If, for example, he unilaterally restored communion wih Rome, it would be a false communion, like that followimg the latrocinium of the Council of Florence, and it could delay the reunion of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches by centuries.   I pray that the Great Schism will have ended by 2054, but if a future Ecumenical Patriarch sought to end it unilaterally, such an ill-advised power play would very possibly extend it to 3054.  I further believe that it is quite likely the Metropolitan of Bursa might, based on the history of his published academic corpus and public comments, attempt such a move. 

So thus I fear I have to pray that he is not chosen to replace His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years, but that instead the burden of leading the Constantinopolitan church should fall on someone capable of reconciling the hierarchy of the church with the Athonite monastic community and improving the health of the parishes (ACROD, already a part of the EP, might be something of a beacon to be followed in this respect).  Actually, on that basis, I myself would probably endorse Bishop Gregory of the Diocese of Nyassa to serve as the next Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.  His jurisdiction has the highest Sunday attendance of any in the United States, he has, as far as I am aware, no hostility eith Mount Athos, and he is not a member of the Phanariot community, or even Greek, but a Carpatho-Rusyn; most importantly, he has never published any academic papers which elicited immediate pan-Orthodox controversy, so to me at least. he seems, on the basis of diversity and ecclesiastical performance, to be a very well qualified candidate.  Certainly, it is hard to imagine his election leading to a schism, which is more than can be said about the Metropolitan of Bursa.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 08:10:26 PM by wgw »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2016, 09:20:24 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

The EP is not claiming supreme direct universal jurisdiction, so no, it's not papal in that sense. However, it is claiming certain special privileges that are not supported by the canons or tradition, and it is exploiting it s preeminence from its time at the heart of an empire today when that empire is long gone. The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2016, 10:34:22 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

The EP is not claiming supreme direct universal jurisdiction, so no, it's not papal in that sense. However, it is claiming certain special privileges that are not supported by the canons or tradition, and it is exploiting it s preeminence from its time at the heart of an empire today when that empire is long gone. The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.

Indeed; it is also worth mentioning that all of these localities are MP territory.  In the case of China, one could make a hypothetical argument that strictly speaking, it should belong to Antioch, but it was the Russians who built that church, as well as the Korean and Japanese churches, and China never complained.

I believe any special privileges the EP had over "the lands of the Barbarians" were abrogated when autocephalous Patriarchates began being set up in these lands.   This also predated the great schism, so I further believe that provision properly speaking applied to Rome; the Ecumenical Patriarchate is claiming it only because of the schism.

So, consider this dismaying observation: if the Eastern Orthodox communion accepts the Constantinopolitan argument that they alone have jurisdiction in North America, China, and all other "lands of the Barbarians," if reunion with Rome occurred control over the Orthodox churches in those lands would automatically revert to the Roman pontiff, leaving the Church of Constantinople with a portion of Greece, Mount Athos, and a dying community in Stamboul, and not much else.  I for one would not want to see the Ecumenical Patriarchate reduced to such a sorry state.   I am as opposed to those who say the EP is a useless anachronism as I am to the Metropolitan of Bursa and his Phanariopapist ambitions.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2016, 10:46:02 PM »
It's recently become apparent that the World Orthodoxy is being torn apart by controversy. It is already clear that the Pan-Orthodox Council has become a mere formality and will not bring any significant fruit. Islamic extremists are killing Christians, Islamist authoritarian regimes are threatening freedom of worship for other faiths, taking away their property and even churches.

Against this background, the question of who will be the next Ecumenical Patriarch after His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is being raised more and more frequently in private conversations. And His Eminence Metropolitan of Bursa Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) is among the most mentioned possible candidates . Will he be able to take responsibility for the fate of Orthodoxy and to solve the problems facing the Phanar (with God's help)? Let's try to evaluate his chances for election.

Indeed, the Pan-Orthodox Council, which was referred by the Ecumenical Patriarch as a historical event and its main achievement, has been criticized by conservatives as well as by modernists. Of course, the very fact of the meeting is a big step forward, but it is necessary to think about whether we will be able to go further and to revive the tradition of conciliarity in the universal scale.
Will next Councils be more meaningful and fruitful? Undoubtedly, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' experience of serving as general secretary of the Holy Synod is priceless, as well as his thorouh familiarity with the hard and elaborate work  on finalizing agenda and development of a clear pastoral vision of the most complex theological and ecclesiological issues.

Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Of course, this is also necessary to populate the Phanar with new excellent clergy who share these ideas and are ready to work tirelessly for the unity of Orthodoxy. There is already a lot of such people in Metropolitan Elpidophoros' inner circle. These are the very faithful people who  will contribute to the prosperity of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and attract new believers from over the world.

It is also necessary to ensure further succession and the highest level of training of the clergy. Of course, I mean the opening of the seminary at the Holy Trinity Monastery on Halki. And  negotiability and  comparative youthfulness of His Eminence are his additional trump cards as a possible Patriarch in this issue. Perhaps, these are qualities that will be decisive since they may be helpful in convincing the Turkish authorities that the EP's activity will be predictable for many decades and won't become a threat to Turkey's national interests.

There's a rumor that the very abbot of the Holy Trinity Monastery don't mind to use  patriarchal dignity to make educational process  here - within the walls  that've already become home to him,- finally resumed.

Actually, why not? His Eminence has a rare combination of energy, practical experience, spiritual and theological maturity. I guess he really would be able to protect Orthodoxy and the high position of the Constantinople Patriarchate from all threats and attacks. What do you think about this?

I believe if that His Eminence were to succeed the Ecumenical Patriarch, if he tried to push forward the primus sine paribus agenda you outlined, and in particular attempted to unilaterally take control lf the Orthodox churches in North America and the Diaspora, and unilaterally conclude ecumenical pacts (for example, if he were to unilaterally restore communion with Rome), it is very likely he would wind up like Nestorius.

Based on the precedent set by the Council of Ephesus, any autocephalous archbishop has the authority to convene an ecumenical council for the purpose of deposing any other autocephalous archbishop, and indeed, the convening archbishop appears to have very broad latitude as to rules of procedure and whether or not the accused can even speak in his defense (see Chalcedon, from whoch the Metropolitan of Bursa extrapolates, using Article 28, much of his erroneous primus sine paribus ecclesiology).

If an Ecumenical Patriarch were deposed, by, for example, an ecumenical council convened by Moscow or Antioch, it is interesting to consider, in the absence of an Emperor to enforce the decrees of the council, how easy it would be for his successor to be enthroned.  I expect that if His Eminence did become the Ecumemical Patriarch, and did do the things you imply he ought to do, he would be deposed by a council driven by Moscow (and perhaps led by Antioch, for aesthetic reasons); the Athonite monks and certain conservative factions like the monasteries of Elder Ephrem in GoArch would likely support his deposition and accept his replacement, whereas GoArch, the Finns and non-MP Estonians, and the Russian emigres and Ukrainians in the diaspora under the EP who would otherwise be under Moscow, would probably object to his replacement, and the possibility exists some autocephalous churches, perhaps Jerusalem, Cyprus or Alexandria, might also dissent...however, I am inclined to believe most if not all autocepahlous primates would back his replacement, since taking unilateral action on the assumption of an authority held primus sine paribus is a threat to the authority of every autocephalous Eastern Orthodox church.

So certainly, at least the crown jewell of the EP, Mount Athos, would accept his replacement.  And the offer of autocephaly to the Church of Finland, ACROD, the Church of Estonia (EP) and so on might well be enough to turn the tide against him.  It would be very unwise for any bishop in any country with friendly relations with Russia to oppose a Moscow led council in this manner; they could likewise be deposed and replaced with greater ease.

It shpuld be noted that there would be no happy ending to such a scenario: in both cases where an Ecumenical Council deposed a sitting autocephalous patriarch, a permanent schism resulted. 

~

Theere would be two potential disasters if His Eminence were to become the Ecumenical Patriarch: the nightmarish meccessity of his removal, as outlined above, could well cause a permanent and destructive schism; in addition, unilateral actions on his part based on his perceoved (and erroneous) misconception of his pastoral authority might result in a massive setback in the process of ecumenical reconciliation.  If, for example, he unilaterally restored communion wih Rome, it would be a false communion, like that followimg the latrocinium of the Council of Florence, and it could delay the reunion of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches by centuries.   I pray that the Great Schism will have ended by 2054, but if a future Ecumenical Patriarch sought to end it unilaterally, such an ill-advised power play would very possibly extend it to 3054.  I further believe that it is quite likely the Metropolitan of Bursa might, based on the history of his published academic corpus and public comments, attempt such a move. 

So thus I fear I have to pray that he is not chosen to replace His All Holiness Bartholomew, may God grant him many years, but that instead the burden of leading the Constantinopolitan church should fall on someone capable of reconciling the hierarchy of the church with the Athonite monastic community and improving the health of the parishes (ACROD, already a part of the EP, might be something of a beacon to be followed in this respect).  Actually, on that basis, I myself would probably endorse Bishop Gregory of the Diocese of Nyassa to serve as the next Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.  His jurisdiction has the highest Sunday attendance of any in the United States, he has, as far as I am aware, no hostility eith Mount Athos, and he is not a member of the Phanariot community, or even Greek, but a Carpatho-Rusyn; most importantly, he has never published any academic papers which elicited immediate pan-Orthodox controversy, so to me at least. he seems, on the basis of diversity and ecclesiastical performance, to be a very well qualified candidate.  Certainly, it is hard to imagine his election leading to a schism, which is more than can be said about the Metropolitan of Bursa.

Bishop Gregory is greek, not Carpatho-Rusyn. Other then that I agree with your post.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2016, 11:11:02 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2016, 11:28:06 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


I ran into this problem the other day. The rest of the first page Google results were Orthodox Christians such as ourselves complaining about the contents of said missing documents.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2016, 12:20:59 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.

Interestingly enough, it still exists in Greek on that page.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2016, 12:21:50 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.


LOL.

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2016, 12:36:47 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2016, 12:55:49 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?

There are a few possibilities:

1) The author is being groomed for Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese of North America, and this document is rather embarrassing for a hierarch who would be expected to get along with everybody (i.e. the non-Greeks).

2) It goes against the public narrative that Constantinople does not have aspirations of forming a Dual Papacy.

3) There are a lot of holes in it that they'd rather not advertise.

4) One other 'rumor' which I need to substantiate before I write it here.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2016, 01:46:14 AM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.

Interestingly enough, it still exists in Greek on that page.
of course.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2016, 07:43:22 PM »
The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.

Why folks here keep bringing us up. The dispute about Finland was settled decades ago. We are under EP and even Moscow doesn't dispute that.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 01:13:37 AM »
The EP has in fact overstepped boundaries in several places, including Finland, Estonia, and Hong Kong based on these assumed privileges, so yes, abuse is occurring now.

Why folks here keep bringing us up. The dispute about Finland was settled decades ago. We are under EP and even Moscow doesn't dispute that.

Lol, decades.  29 May 1453 happened yesterday.
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 06:53:45 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?

There are a few possibilities:

1) The author is being groomed for Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese of North America, and this document is rather embarrassing for a hierarch who would be expected to get along with everybody (i.e. the non-Greeks).

2) It goes against the public narrative that Constantinople does not have aspirations of forming a Dual Papacy.

3) There are a lot of holes in it that they'd rather not advertise.

4) One other 'rumor' which I need to substantiate before I write it here.


I have a feeling that number 4 involves the departure of the Metropolitan of Bursa for greener or perhaps more Tiberian pastures, although this is merely my instinct, and I also Father would appreciate your guidance in how we can discuss things of this sort and speculate without gossippping about hierarchs.  At present, I regard the Metropolitan of Nursa as a holy bishop of the Orthodox Church and would render him all due honours and call him Vladyka or Master, but I disagree with him, completely, on his interpretation of the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

By the way, how does one, if presented with the opportunity, tell a bishop you think they are in error?  In Orthodoxy I believe it has been established the laity can correct errant bishops and have on some occasions, although usually it is the other way around, but can someone really approach a Metropolitan bishop and say "I am sorry, your eminence, but I believe you are dead wrong on this issue!" ?
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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 06:54:51 PM »
Constantinople has scrubbed the document from its web site.

I will work on getting a copy posted.


What do you think it means?

There are a few possibilities:

1) The author is being groomed for Archbishop of the Greek Archdiocese of North America, and this document is rather embarrassing for a hierarch who would be expected to get along with everybody (i.e. the non-Greeks).

2) It goes against the public narrative that Constantinople does not have aspirations of forming a Dual Papacy.

3) There are a lot of holes in it that they'd rather not advertise.

4) One other 'rumor' which I need to substantiate before I write it here.


I have a feeling that number 4 involves the departure of the Metropolitan of Bursa for greener or perhaps more Tiberian pastures...

;)

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 07:08:59 PM »

By the way, how does one, if presented with the opportunity, tell a bishop you think they are in error?  In Orthodoxy I believe it has been established the laity can correct errant bishops and have on some occasions, although usually it is the other way around, but can someone really approach a Metropolitan bishop and say "I am sorry, your eminence, but I believe you are dead wrong on this issue!" ?

My understanding is that you bring it to the attention of other Bishops and/or the Church's local Synod via other Bishops who have a responsibility and mechanism to correct a fellow Bishop through proper means.   Personally speaking, I think this is the only acceptable method.   

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2016, 03:50:42 AM »
Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Quite surprising, I've noted this topic being discussed on another Christian forum. A lot of people express their opposition to the "primus sine paribus" idea. But there are speculations that the leadership of Constantinople is urgently needed to counterbalance the influence of Russian patriarch Kirill. "The perspective is clear – without Elpidophoros we’re gonna see Kirill and Putin dominate and manipulate the whole Orthodox church", - some of the users say.

Besides that, there are posts about the Patriarch Bartholome's poor  health. "He’s had Parkinson for many years and in addition now people say he suffers from some kind of oncology. That’s no surprise – remember his look at the opening of the Holy and Great Council! His hands were shaking horribly! That’s why he hurried to hold the Council. Now he obviously needs a successor. There was a good idea to hold Councils every 3-5 years, but who will do that?".

Some other possible candidates who may succeed His All Holiness Bartholomew I as Ecumenical Patriarch are mentioned as well. For example, a supporter of  Bursa Metropolitan wrote:

"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it. Who else? Metropolitan of Pergamon? – We remember him sleeping at the last Holy and Great Council, we see him living in his own imaginary world full of personalism, existentialism and solipsism! Metropolitan Emmanuel? He is weak and unconfident, he can’t demonstrate any opposition and some people say he is corrupt and immoral in personal life!".

However, Met. Emmanuel was also reported to slander Elpidophoros in the face of EP. And even Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis was said to being restrained from the real decision-making due to his connections with the ambitious Metropolitan of Bursa.

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2016, 11:27:17 AM »
Along with this, the Phanar should restore its  teetering authority in relations with heterodox,  prove his ability to speak with the rest of the Christian world and to take the initiative. In this context, Metropolitan Elpidophoros' friendly relationship with Catholics and Protestants will help us to avoid any misunderstanding and will be a solid basis for the deepening of the dialogue.

Equally important is the willingness of His Eminence to defend the high canonical position of the EP as primus sine paribus (the first without equals) among other Autocephalous Orthodox Churches. So, an eloquent proof of this willingness is a brilliant theological answer of the Metropolitan of Bursa to the Moscow's criticism and charges of "papism" . After all, only the strong Ecumenical Patriarchate will be able to stop infighting between the Autocephalous Churches, gather disunited Orthodox community of America under its omophorion, unite the Christian World around one Truth , as well as to promote peaceful coexistence and dialogue with other faiths.

Quite surprising, I've noted this topic being discussed on another Christian forum. A lot of people express their opposition to the "primus sine paribus" idea. But there are speculations that the leadership of Constantinople is urgently needed to counterbalance the influence of Russian patriarch Kirill. "The perspective is clear – without Elpidophoros we’re gonna see Kirill and Putin dominate and manipulate the whole Orthodox church", - some of the users say.

Besides that, there are posts about the Patriarch Bartholome's poor  health. "He’s had Parkinson for many years and in addition now people say he suffers from some kind of oncology. That’s no surprise – remember his look at the opening of the Holy and Great Council! His hands were shaking horribly! That’s why he hurried to hold the Council. Now he obviously needs a successor. There was a good idea to hold Councils every 3-5 years, but who will do that?".

Some other possible candidates who may succeed His All Holiness Bartholomew I as Ecumenical Patriarch are mentioned as well. For example, a supporter of  Bursa Metropolitan wrote:

"One of the first steps for Elpidophoros is to become archbishop of America – that would be a good opportunity to find the right people and effectively organize Patriarchate activities. That’s clear to everybody that only he can do it. Who else? Metropolitan of Pergamon? – We remember him sleeping at the last Holy and Great Council, we see him living in his own imaginary world full of personalism, existentialism and solipsism! Metropolitan Emmanuel? He is weak and unconfident, he can’t demonstrate any opposition and some people say he is corrupt and immoral in personal life!".

However, Met. Emmanuel was also reported to slander Elpidophoros in the face of EP. And even Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis was said to being restrained from the real decision-making due to his connections with the ambitious Metropolitan of Bursa.

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

The Patriarchate of Constantinople is part of a larger question of the declining fertility rate among ethnic Greeks.  The Greek population in Greece is 'responsible' for filling not only several hundred monastic institutions, but also hierarchical positions within the State Church of Greece, Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Alexandria (the Albanian government has apparently forbade further Greek bishops there, and Cyprus fills its own slots as an 'ethnic Greek' community).  As the general population decreases, so do the number of candidates.

What this does is swing the ethnic makeup of the Church more towards the Slavs (the Russians have turned around their declining rates since the 1990s, though much of the rest of Eastern Europe has not):



With more conversions in Africa, the Americas (Central America in particular), and even potential in China, the ethnic balance of the Church in terms of total population will continue to swing away from being a heavily Greek population into a much more diverse community than it has been in 500 years.

This is exciting, but it will be rather 'scary' since there will obviously be a realignment of episcopates and territories as some areas  need more bishops while other sees will be shut down or absorbed.  Right now, all the Greek Orthodox Christians in Turkey would fill just a couple of cathedral communities in Romania or Serbia.  eventually, someone will ask the question why there are any bishops there at all other than for historical purposes only.

The concern about 'Russian Influence' is rather odd, because right now one could say that there is an unbalanced favor towards 'Greek Influence,' as if that matters to most people at all.  I would say that we are just more used to the Greek influence, but it will naturally be harder to maintain with fewer and fewer ethnic Greeks (please see the map above to understand that I am speaking of demographics rather than a purposeful 'de-grecification' of the Orthodox Church).

This will make it even more complex when speaking of the 'diaspora,' which has largely relied on steady influxes of immigrants to preserve emigre identity.  Declining birth rates stop the flow, and so local communities are likely to 'go feral' and becomes something of a hybrid between immigrant and domestic cultures.

You can see an example of this today in Greek American parishes, which fly a Greek flag, even though their Patriarch operates under the Turkish flag and they have nothing to do with bishops from the Church of Greece.  If they flew the same flag in one of their parishes in Turkey, the building would get burned down, so such an idea would be utterly foreign to a modern Constantinopolitan Christian (the reverse would be true about a Turkish flag in a church in Greece).  Greek Americans have hybridized Greek, Constantinopolitan, and American cultures.  We are used to such things here, though on the whole they are rather strange.

The world is changing.  The Church is changing... whether we like it or not.

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Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2016, 11:38:05 AM »

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

Infighting between titular bishops over titular sees and imaginary authority is deeply ingrained in the institutional culture of the Patriarchate of Constatinople. It's pretty much all their bishops in Turkey know how to do. And this isn't a new story-- between 1454 and 1895, the patriarchate changed hands 157 times between 105 patriarchs, which means the patriarchate changed hands roughly once every three years, with some individual patriarchs coming in and out of power three and four times, depending on which faction could raise the most money to bribe the Turks.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2016, 12:31:07 PM »

I didn't want to think about all this infighting between members of the episcopacy. It's too disturbing for me. It's seemed to draw us away from saving souls.  But should we be absolutely unaware of such issues as next Ecumenical Patriarch and the future of Orthodox Church in the World while leaving them solely to God?

Infighting between titular bishops over titular sees and imaginary authority is deeply ingrained in the institutional culture of the Patriarchate of Constatinople. It's pretty much all their bishops in Turkey know how to do. And this isn't a new story-- between 1454 and 1895, the patriarchate changed hands 157 times between 105 patriarchs, which means the patriarchate changed hands roughly once every three years, with some individual patriarchs coming in and out of power three and four times, depending on which faction could raise the most money to bribe the Turks.

That reminded me of all this:

1466–1833

    165. Dionysius I (end 1466–1471)
        Symeon I of Trebizond (1471–1475), restored 1st time
    166. Raphael I (1475–1476)
    167. Maximus III (1476–1482)
        Symeon I of Trebizond (1482–1486), restored 2nd time
    168. Nephon II (1486–1488)
        Dionysius I (1488–1490), restored
    169. Maximus IV (1491–1497)
        Nephon II (1497–1498), restored 1st time
    170. Joachim I (1498–1502)
        Nephon II (1502), restored 2nd time
    171. Pachomius I (1503–1504)
        Joachim I (1504), restored
        Pachomius I (1504–1513), restored
    172. Theoleptus I (1513–1522)
    173. Jeremias I (1522–1524)
    174. Joannicius I (1524–1525)
        Jeremias I (1525–1546), restored
    175. Dionysius II (1546–1556)
    176. Joasaph II (1556–1565)
    177. Metrophanes III (1565–1572)
    178. Jeremias II Tranos (1572–1579)
        Metrophanes III (1579–1580), restored
        Jeremias II Tranos (1580–1584), restored 1st time
    179. Pachomius II (1584–1585)
    180. Theoleptus II (1585–1586)
        Jeremias II Tranos (1587–1595), restored 2nd time
    181. Matthew II (1596)
    182. Gabriel I (1596)
        Theophanes I Karykes (locum tenens, 1596)
        Meletius I Pegas (locum tenens, 1597)
    183. Theophanes I Karykes (1597)
    184. Meletius I Pegas (locum tenens, 1597–1598)
        Matthew II (1598–1602), restored 1st time
    185. Neophytus II (1602–1603)
        Matthew II (1603), restored 2nd time
    186. Raphael II (1603–1607)
        Neophytus II (1607–1612), restored
    187. Cyril I Lucaris (locum tenens, 1612)
    188. Timothy II (1612–1620)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1620–1623), restored 1st time
    189. Gregory IV (1623)
    190. Anthimus II (1623)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1623–1633), restored 2nd time
    191. Cyril II Kontares (1633)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1633–1634), restored 3rd time
    192. Athanasius III Patelaros (1634)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1634–1635), restored 4th time
        Cyril II Kontares (1635–1636), restored 1st time
    193. Neophytus III of Nicaea (1636–1637)
        Cyril I Lucaris (1637–1638) restored 5th time
        Cyril II Kontares (1638–1639), restored 2nd time
    194. Parthenius I (1639–1644)
    195. Parthenius II (1644–1646)
    196. Joannicius II (1646–1648)
        Parthenius II (1648–1651), restored
        Joannicius II (1651–1652), restored 1st time
    197. Cyril III (1652–1652)
        Athanasius III (1652), restored
    198. Paisius I (1652–1653)
        Joannicius II (1653–1654), restored 2nd time
        Cyril III (1654), restored
        Joannicius II (1655–1656), restored 3rd time
    199. Parthenius III (1656–1657)
    200. Gabriel II (1657)
    201. Parthenius IV (1657–1659)
    202. Theophanes II (1659)
        vacant (1659–1662)
    203. Dionysius III (1662–1665)
        Parthenius IV (1665–1667), restored 1st time
    204. Clement (1667)
    205. Methodius III (1668–1671)
        Parthenius IV (1671), restored 2nd time
    206. Dionysius IV Muselimes (1671–1673)
    207. Gerasimus II (1673–1674)
        Parthenius IV (1675–1676) restored 3rd time
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1676–1679), restored 1st time
    208. Athanasius IV (1679)
    209. James (1679–1682)
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1682–1684), restored 2nd time
        Parthenius IV (1684–1685) restored 4th time
        James (1685–1686), restored 1st time
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1686–1687), restored 3rd time
        James (1687–1688), restored 2nd time
    210. Callinicus II (1688)
    211. Neophytus IV (1688)
        Callinicus II (1689–1693), restored 1st time
        Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim) (1693–1694), restored 4th time
        Callinicus II (1694–1702), restored 2nd time
    212. Gabriel III (1702–1707)
    213. Neophytus V (1707)
    214. Cyprianus (1707–1709)
    215. Athanasius V (1709–1711)
    216. Cyril IV (1711–1713)
        Cyprianus (1713–1714), restored
    217. Cosmas III (1714–1716)
    218. Jeremias III (1716–1726)
        Callinicus III (1726)[5]
    219. Paisius II (1726–1732)
        Jeremias III (1732–1733), restored
    220. Serapheim I (1733–1734)
    221. Neophytus VI (1734–1740)
        Paisius II (1740–1743), restored 1st time
        Neophytus VI (1743–1744), restored
        Paisius II (1744–1748), restored 2nd time
    222. Cyril V (1748–1751)
        Paisius II (1751–1752), restored 2nd time
        Cyril V (1752–1757), restored 1st time
    223. Callinicus IV (1757)
    224. Serapheim II (1757–1761)
    225. Joannicius III (1761–1763)
    226. Samuel I Chatzeres (1763–1768)
    227. Meletius II (1769–1769)
    228. Theodosius II (1769–1773)
        Samuel I Chatzeres (1773–1774), restored
    229. Sophronius II (1774–1780)
    230. Gabriel IV (1780–1785)
    231. Procopius (1785–1789)
    232. Neophytus VII (1789–1794)
    233. Gerasimus III (1794–1797)
    234. Gregory V (1797–1798)
        Neophytus VII (1798–1801), restored
    235. Callinicus V (1801–1806)
        Gregory V (1806–1808), restored 1st time
        Callinicus V (1808–1809), restored
    236. Jeremias IV (1809–1813)
    237. Cyril VI (1813–1818)
        Gregory V (1818–1821), restored 2nd time
    238. Eugenius II (1821–1822)
    239. Anthimus III (1822–1824)
    240. Chrysanthus I (1824–1826)
    241. Agathangelus I (1826–1830)
    242. Constantius I (1830–1834)
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2016, 12:43:15 PM »
Dionysius IV Muselimes (the Muslim)


I love this thread.