Author Topic: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA  (Read 10965 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tonedawg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Bad news from the OCA!!

I been told from a very reliable source, that Atef Aziz, the man excommunicated by the Coptic church in 2003 for teaching elements of Gnosticism, Pentecostalism (Montanism), and his own heretical flavor of Orthodoxy, was tonsured as a monk, in the rank of Stavrophor, by the name of Father Macarius. He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco. Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women. The tonsuring took place 10 days after a meeting between HG Bishop Benjamin and HE Metroploitan Serapion, in which the latter warned the former of Atef and his past with the Coptic Church. It seems that the warning was taken on deaf ears, and that his ordination is being taken as a slap in the face of the Coptic Church.

I also been told that HE Metroplitan Serapion is very upset over this and that the Coptic Church's relations with the OCA will be severed, including our relationship with St. Vladimir Seminary. This could also mean the cancelation of the upcoming Coptic series of books that St. Vladimir was planning on releasing, which included the upcoming book on St. Habib Guirguis.

I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

May the Lord guide His Church in all truth and in peace and have mercy on us.
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,202
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2016, 04:14:21 PM »
That is serious news. But there are other examples of the EO receiving problematic people from the OO and ignoring advice unfortunately
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2016, 04:29:55 PM »
Bad news from the OCA!!

I been told from a very reliable source, that Atef Aziz, the man excommunicated by the Coptic church in 2003 for teaching elements of Gnosticism, Pentecostalism (Montanism), and his own heretical flavor of Orthodoxy, was tonsured as a monk, in the rank of Stavrophor, by the name of Father Macarius. He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco. Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women. The tonsuring took place 10 days after a meeting between HG Bishop Benjamin and HE Metroploitan Serapion, in which the latter warned the former of Atef and his past with the Coptic Church. It seems that the warning was taken on deaf ears, and that his ordination is being taken as a slap in the face of the Coptic Church.

I also been told that HE Metroplitan Serapion is very upset over this and that the Coptic Church's relations with the OCA will be severed, including our relationship with St. Vladimir Seminary. This could also mean the cancelation of the upcoming Coptic series of books that St. Vladimir was planning on releasing, which included the upcoming book on St. Habib Guirguis.

I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

May the Lord guide His Church in all truth and in peace and have mercy on us.

I was under the impression that this situation was not as serious, that Atef Aziz was only a Rassaphore, and had no formal mission or ecclesiastical function, and that there are active discussions between Metropolitan Serapion and Archbishop Benjamin on how to resolve this.  There was another thread on this subject.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,751
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,721
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2016, 05:11:51 PM »
That is serious news. But there are other examples of the EO receiving problematic people from the OO and ignoring advice unfortunately

At some level, I wonder if those in positions of responsibility believe we have the right to offer an opinion and advice in the first place. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,721
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2016, 05:49:44 PM »
I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

Where?

Offline Tonedawg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2016, 07:56:02 AM »
I received the same newsletter yesterday.  Giving the benefit of the doubt, although it seems difficult with his checkered past, the article says he was received into the OCA in 2013 at a parish in Phoenix, AZ; here's a quote from the article:

Quote
Fr. Macarius has been a frequent guest at the monastery; he was tonsured here as a stravophor [My note:  I'm sure "riassophor" was meant to be written] on March 10 last year.

I'm just taking this at face value, but this seems like a long process for someone to really pull the wool over the monastery's and his parish's eyes.  It certainly is troubling that this man was excommunicated and he is also directing other communities.

May God give everyone wisdom.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline IXOYE

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,433
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2016, 09:26:53 AM »
I received the same newsletter yesterday.  Giving the benefit of the doubt, although it seems difficult with his checkered past, the article says he was received into the OCA in 2013 at a parish in Phoenix, AZ; here's a quote from the article:

Quote
Fr. Macarius has been a frequent guest at the monastery; he was tonsured here as a stravophor [My note:  I'm sure "riassophor" was meant to be written] on March 10 last year.

I'm just taking this at face value, but this seems like a long process for someone to really pull the wool over the monastery's and his parish's eyes.  It certainly is troubling that this man was excommunicated and he is also directing other communities.

May God give everyone wisdom.

Amen!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:27:43 AM by IXOYE »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,721
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2016, 09:32:30 AM »
I'm just taking this at face value, but this seems like a long process for someone to really pull the wool over the monastery's and his parish's eyes.

Then perhaps this conference has the blessing of the primate of the OCA, or at least of the bishop of the DOW.  "Fr Macarius" is still listed as a speaker.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,721
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2016, 09:40:08 AM »
I'm just taking this at face value, but this seems like a long process for someone to really pull the wool over the monastery's and his parish's eyes.

Then perhaps this conference has the blessing of the primate of the OCA, or at least of the bishop of the DOW.  "Fr Macarius" is still listed as a speaker.

Quote
Prayers and prophesying to build up our inner man. Learn how to pray and proclaim the blood of Jesus and prophesy to the members of our inner man through the verses of the Bible so that we can develop and mature our inner man toward the purpose of the formation of Christ within us. Dr. Meshreky was devoted to medicine before being called to be set apart and committed for the Lord. In obedience to his calling, he became a consecrated celibate brother of the Coptic Church. He began to live a life in ministry, but faced spiritual struggles. He desired a holy life, but when comparing his spiritual reality to the picture of the true Christian life in the New Testament, he realized the disparity. Recurring sins/weaknesses remained; causing a yearning for a transformation that would manifest the grace of the New Testament. He entered into spiritual seclusion. During his seclusion years of worship, fasting, praying, and studying the word of God, He revealed rich mysteries and guided him to the way of the deep life in the Spirit. In his 40 years of ministry/seclusion, the Lord led him to discover the wells of the Early Fathers of the Church. These wells have rich springs, sources of living water of the Church that can lead us into deep/fulfilling worship in the Spirit. He has dedicated himself to share this with the body of Christ, in order to deepen the spiritual life enabling the Church to face end time challenges, reunite the mind of Christ in the Church East and West, and prepare the Bride for the second coming of Christ.

https://www.amazon.com/Prayers-Prophesying-Build-Your-Inner/dp/B01666C0TA?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

This book, published two years after "Fr Macarius" joined the OCA, while he was a rassophore monk, must have the blessing of the primate of the OCA, or at least of the bishop of the DOW.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:41:31 AM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2016, 09:44:06 AM »
I'm just taking this at face value, but this seems like a long process for someone to really pull the wool over the monastery's and his parish's eyes.

Then perhaps this conference has the blessing of the primate of the OCA, or at least of the bishop of the DOW.  "Fr Macarius" is still listed as a speaker.

Quote
Prayers and prophesying to build up our inner man. Learn how to pray and proclaim the blood of Jesus and prophesy to the members of our inner man through the verses of the Bible so that we can develop and mature our inner man toward the purpose of the formation of Christ within us. Dr. Meshreky was devoted to medicine before being called to be set apart and committed for the Lord. In obedience to his calling, he became a consecrated celibate brother of the Coptic Church. He began to live a life in ministry, but faced spiritual struggles. He desired a holy life, but when comparing his spiritual reality to the picture of the true Christian life in the New Testament, he realized the disparity. Recurring sins/weaknesses remained; causing a yearning for a transformation that would manifest the grace of the New Testament. He entered into spiritual seclusion. During his seclusion years of worship, fasting, praying, and studying the word of God, He revealed rich mysteries and guided him to the way of the deep life in the Spirit. In his 40 years of ministry/seclusion, the Lord led him to discover the wells of the Early Fathers of the Church. These wells have rich springs, sources of living water of the Church that can lead us into deep/fulfilling worship in the Spirit. He has dedicated himself to share this with the body of Christ, in order to deepen the spiritual life enabling the Church to face end time challenges, reunite the mind of Christ in the Church East and West, and prepare the Bride for the second coming of Christ.

https://www.amazon.com/Prayers-Prophesying-Build-Your-Inner/dp/B01666C0TA?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

Barf.

Quote
This book, published two years after "Fr Macarius" joined the OCA, while he was a rassophore monk, must have the blessing of the primate of the OCA, or at least of the bishop of the DOW.

You are correct.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2016, 10:13:59 AM »
I do want to say that I like the ending of the Coptic heirarchs' pastoral message:

Quote
Blessing comes upon the sons of obedience


Nice.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 12:05:04 PM »
Bad news from the OCA!!

I been told from a very reliable source, that Atef Aziz, the man excommunicated by the Coptic church in 2003 for teaching elements of Gnosticism, Pentecostalism (Montanism), and his own heretical flavor of Orthodoxy, was tonsured as a monk, in the rank of Stavrophor, by the name of Father Macarius. He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco. Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women. The tonsuring took place 10 days after a meeting between HG Bishop Benjamin and HE Metroploitan Serapion, in which the latter warned the former of Atef and his past with the Coptic Church. It seems that the warning was taken on deaf ears, and that his ordination is being taken as a slap in the face of the Coptic Church.

I also been told that HE Metroplitan Serapion is very upset over this and that the Coptic Church's relations with the OCA will be severed, including our relationship with St. Vladimir Seminary. This could also mean the cancelation of the upcoming Coptic series of books that St. Vladimir was planning on releasing, which included the upcoming book on St. Habib Guirguis.

I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

May the Lord guide His Church in all truth and in peace and have mercy on us.

Maybe your opening line should read; "YET MORE bad news from the OCA"

Please explain for those of us who don't bother much with church politics:

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Archmandrite (or Father) Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

removed offending title and replaced with appropriate clergy title.  --Mina
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 03:41:21 PM by minasoliman »
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2016, 12:08:28 PM »

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

1)  No.  Hieromonk Innocent is.

2)  Kinda, sorta.  He lives in Phoenix and oversees two groups of monastic disciples.

3)  Syosset isn't fully purged of the old responsibles....so, not for the foreseeable future. 
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2016, 12:32:02 PM »

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

1)  No.  Hieromonk Innocent is.

2)  Kinda, sorta.  He lives in Phoenix and oversees two groups of monastic disciples.

3)  Syosset isn't fully purged of the old responsibles....so, not for the foreseeable future.

Thanks! 

Hope they are back on track and that monks are spiritually thriving now. 
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2016, 12:47:06 PM »

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

1)  No.  Hieromonk Innocent is.

2)  Kinda, sorta.  He lives in Phoenix and oversees two groups of monastic disciples.

3)  Syosset isn't fully purged of the old responsibles....so, not for the foreseeable future.

Thanks! 

Hope they are back on track and that monks are spiritually thriving now.

They are doing better.  Keep them in your prayers!
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2016, 01:50:42 PM »
Bad news from the OCA!!

I been told from a very reliable source, that Atef Aziz, the man excommunicated by the Coptic church in 2003 for teaching elements of Gnosticism, Pentecostalism (Montanism), and his own heretical flavor of Orthodoxy, was tonsured as a monk, in the rank of Stavrophor, by the name of Father Macarius. He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco. Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women. The tonsuring took place 10 days after a meeting between HG Bishop Benjamin and HE Metroploitan Serapion, in which the latter warned the former of Atef and his past with the Coptic Church. It seems that the warning was taken on deaf ears, and that his ordination is being taken as a slap in the face of the Coptic Church.

I also been told that HE Metroplitan Serapion is very upset over this and that the Coptic Church's relations with the OCA will be severed, including our relationship with St. Vladimir Seminary. This could also mean the cancelation of the upcoming Coptic series of books that St. Vladimir was planning on releasing, which included the upcoming book on St. Habib Guirguis.

I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

May the Lord guide His Church in all truth and in peace and have mercy on us.

Maybe your opening line should read; "YET MORE bad news from the OCA"

Please explain for those of us who don't bother much with church politics:

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

3) I don't think that's a fair criticism.  I like the OCA.  Just the bishop seems to be a bit...clueless.  In any sense, it could have happened anywhere, old or new church.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,079
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2016, 02:25:13 PM »
Too bad, I wonder why HG thought this was a good idea...
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2016, 03:13:59 PM »
Bad news from the OCA!!

I been told from a very reliable source, that Atef Aziz, the man excommunicated by the Coptic church in 2003 for teaching elements of Gnosticism, Pentecostalism (Montanism), and his own heretical flavor of Orthodoxy, was tonsured as a monk, in the rank of Stavrophor, by the name of Father Macarius. He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco. Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women. The tonsuring took place 10 days after a meeting between HG Bishop Benjamin and HE Metroploitan Serapion, in which the latter warned the former of Atef and his past with the Coptic Church. It seems that the warning was taken on deaf ears, and that his ordination is being taken as a slap in the face of the Coptic Church.

I also been told that HE Metroplitan Serapion is very upset over this and that the Coptic Church's relations with the OCA will be severed, including our relationship with St. Vladimir Seminary. This could also mean the cancelation of the upcoming Coptic series of books that St. Vladimir was planning on releasing, which included the upcoming book on St. Habib Guirguis.

I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

May the Lord guide His Church in all truth and in peace and have mercy on us.

Maybe your opening line should read; "YET MORE bad news from the OCA"

Please explain for those of us who don't bother much with church politics:

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

3) I don't think that's a fair criticism.  I like the OCA.  Just the bishop seems to be a bit...clueless.  In any sense, it could have happened anywhere, old or new church.

Ok.  Just to be clear, it's not the generally the parishioners, it is the leadership.  I've observed more than this instance, enough to see a pattern even at the level of the priesthood.  Won't enumerate on a public forum.  Too many people hurt by placing the wrong people in position at various locations--people who should be under penance shouldn't be at the altar serving in any capacity.   The priesthood may be only for men, but not every man is for the priesthood or any part of clerical order.

I would hope the old churches know better than to place a man with no monastic experience as an abbot and not vet him for deeper issues.   He hurt people I love.  Even a new church should know better.  It was a man with barely any monastic experience who placed him, the one who early on started barking about breaking ties with the mother churches and creating an American church, iirc.   And we see how that turned out.  At least thank God we are still in the same fold. 



 
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2016, 03:28:21 PM »
These situations happen in many other churches throughout history.  While it's sad these things happen, we pray and have faith Christ will lead the Church in all truth and guidance and eventually bring all things into His goodness, even when things seem quite dire or hopeless.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,079
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2016, 03:43:53 PM »
I think the PAOC cut off her Portuguese diocese for similar reasons: exogenous mysticism being tolerated by a bishop. I hope this situation is sorted out for the OCA, so sad...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 03:52:26 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2016, 04:11:40 PM »
What's PAOC?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2016, 04:25:06 PM »
A reliable source tell me he's been instructed to return to the monastery.  If he disobeys, there will be consequences.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,079
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2016, 05:54:23 PM »
What's PAOC?
Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church. She adopted Portuguese and Brazilian bishops leaving an Old Calendarist synod, but the Portuguese went on schism later and formed the uncanonical Lusitanian Catholic Orthodox Church. Their bishop is a serious and enlightened man, too sad he won't bother to clean up his diocese and restore communion.

A reliable source tell me he's been instructed to return to the monastery.  If he disobeys, there will be consequences.
Nice to know they're starting to take measures. I'll pray Fr. Macarius repents and ceases to cause problems, and that the distaste with the Copts is undone.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 06:01:14 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2016, 05:57:21 PM »
These situations happen in many other churches throughout history.  While it's sad these things happen, we pray and have faith Christ will lead the Church in all truth and guidance and eventually bring all things into His goodness, even when things seem quite dire or hopeless.

yeah, everything will be alright.  thanks  :)
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Tonedawg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2016, 08:53:32 PM »
A reliable source tell me he's been instructed to return to the monastery.  If he disobeys, there will be consequences.

But he has a conference in July in Korea!
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2016, 09:28:17 PM »
A reliable source tell me he's been instructed to return to the monastery.  If he disobeys, there will be consequences.

But he has a conference in July in Korea!

Did you buy a ticket or something?  Relax.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Tonedawg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2016, 12:53:30 AM »
No, the Coptic Bishops warned us about it in their letter to the Copts of North America!
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2016, 12:59:50 AM »
Yea but if the Abbott decided he shouldn't go to Korea, why are you worried?  This might be a good thing if the OCA decides to take action and see if he obeys.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline kijabeboy03

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,019
  • J'étais insensé.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Tous.
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2016, 07:19:11 AM »
A strange situation. A little curious as to why he's not listed in the OCA clergy directory if he's been ordained a priest by Archbishop Benjamin. The directory's pretty exhaustive and usually includes information about where the clergy are attached.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 07:19:54 AM by kijabeboy03 »

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,256
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2016, 11:00:53 AM »
A strange situation. A little curious as to why he's not listed in the OCA clergy directory if he's been ordained a priest by Archbishop Benjamin. The directory's pretty exhaustive and usually includes information about where the clergy are attached.

I don't believe anyone mentioned him being ordained a priest.  He's been tonsured a monk.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline IXOYE

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,433
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2016, 11:09:15 AM »
A strange situation. A little curious as to why he's not listed in the OCA clergy directory if he's been ordained a priest by Archbishop Benjamin. The directory's pretty exhaustive and usually includes information about where the clergy are attached.

I don't believe anyone mentioned him being ordained a priest.  He's been tonsured a monk.


The OP wrote: " He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco."

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2016, 01:29:58 AM »
OP mistook tonsuring and ordination.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,256
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2016, 09:48:26 AM »
A strange situation. A little curious as to why he's not listed in the OCA clergy directory if he's been ordained a priest by Archbishop Benjamin. The directory's pretty exhaustive and usually includes information about where the clergy are attached.

I don't believe anyone mentioned him being ordained a priest.  He's been tonsured a monk.


The OP wrote: " He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco."

I guess I missed that line.  But like hecma said, the OP got a tad confused there.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,751
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2016, 09:53:42 AM »
Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women.




which he?   Atef Aziz? or Archbishop Benjamin?
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2016, 01:24:04 AM »
Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women.




which he?   Atef Aziz? or Archbishop Benjamin?

Atef apparently has disciples.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 01:24:20 AM by hecma925 »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2016, 07:31:43 PM »
Yea but if the Abbott decided he shouldn't go to Korea, why are you worried?  This might be a good thing if the OCA decides to take action and see if he obeys.

Indeed, very good news.  It must be stressed that not only is he a speaker at the conference, he appears to be the organizer!  So it would seem the OCA cannot allow him to go to Korea and potentially embarass the church.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 03:44:51 PM »
Bad news from the OCA!!

I been told from a very reliable source, that Atef Aziz, the man excommunicated by the Coptic church in 2003 for teaching elements of Gnosticism, Pentecostalism (Montanism), and his own heretical flavor of Orthodoxy, was tonsured as a monk, in the rank of Stavrophor, by the name of Father Macarius. He was ordained March 22, 2016 by HG Bishop Benjamin of the monastery of St. John of San Francisco. Apparently he also has two monastic communities that he overlooks, one of 5 men, and another of 7 women. The tonsuring took place 10 days after a meeting between HG Bishop Benjamin and HE Metroploitan Serapion, in which the latter warned the former of Atef and his past with the Coptic Church. It seems that the warning was taken on deaf ears, and that his ordination is being taken as a slap in the face of the Coptic Church.

I also been told that HE Metroplitan Serapion is very upset over this and that the Coptic Church's relations with the OCA will be severed, including our relationship with St. Vladimir Seminary. This could also mean the cancelation of the upcoming Coptic series of books that St. Vladimir was planning on releasing, which included the upcoming book on St. Habib Guirguis.

I've attached the newsletter from the Monastery of St. John of San Francisco.

May the Lord guide His Church in all truth and in peace and have mercy on us.

Maybe your opening line should read; "YET MORE bad news from the OCA"

Please explain for those of us who don't bother much with church politics:

1)  Is HG Bishop Benjamin the abbot of St. John's Monastery now? 

2) Is this Atef Aziz attached to St. John's Monastery now?

3)  When is the OCA going to get a clue?  They were cut from the mother church too early and it's really obvious they don't know how to steer.  Those poor monks already have had to suffer through predatory old Archmandrite (or Father) Meletios Webber, the aftershocks of which hit really close to my home.

removed offending title and replaced with appropriate clergy title.  --Mina

Dear Velsigne,

Since Archmandrite Meletios Webber is an official consecrated member of the OCA, we should not directly attack his person or neglect to give the proper title.  Please see read the forum rules regarding proper clergy titles for more details.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,196
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 03:51:25 PM »
Dear all,

From now on, since we now know Fr. Macarius is attached to the OCA, for the consistent purposes of the rules of this forum site, he shall be referred to as such, not "Fr. Seraphim" or "Atef Aziz" or "Atef Meshreky".  Keep in mind, we can also disagree with his views and call them heresy, but we should refrain from directly attacking the person himself, since we are in no synodal position to judge the person.

If his status changes, then this is obviously subject to change, and we can go back to naming him whatever we want.  But as a member of the monastic orders in the OCA, out of respect for the rules of the forum, we shall implement that we keep the proper title and name of the man.

God bless, and may the Lord have mercy on us all.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,944
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2017, 07:28:00 PM »
Could one possibility be that in joining the OCA, Fr. Macarius promised to give up his deviant actions?

As I understand it, the problem with Fr. Macarius was that he was Neo-Pentecostalist / Montanist when he was a Copt. The OCA is basically anti-Pentecostalist at this point. It's extremely rare for the canonical EO churches in the USA to have serious NeoPenteclostalist movements nowadays.

I know of for example a Renewal group in the OCA, but AFAIK the Renewal group does not have any teachings deviant from the traditional OCA ones. I would be a bit surprised if any OCA parishes were practicing group glossolalia.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2017, 01:10:50 AM »
The OCA is basically anti-Pentecostalist at this point.

Is it?  How is this manifested?

I know of for example a Renewal group in the OCA, but AFAIK the Renewal group does not have any teachings deviant from the traditional OCA ones.

Which group is that?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,944
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2017, 01:20:27 AM »
The OCA is basically anti-Pentecostalist at this point.
Is it?  How is this manifested?
One way to judge this would be to look at the views of the members by and large themselves. I also think the views of ACROD, the GOA, and OCA tend to be pretty similar on this. In case you belong to one of these churches, your own views would be relevant to what I mean. What are your own views on Pentecostalism?

But anyway, my understanding is not that they are publicly making some large campaign against the Pentecostals, rather they generally exclude Pentecostalist worship (eg. glossolalia) from their services.

Quote
I know of for example a Renewal group in the OCA, but AFAIK the Renewal group does not have any teachings deviant from the traditional OCA ones.

Which group is that?
These are different Orthodox Renewal groups, and there are some members of at least one in the OCA:

Orthodox Spiritual Renewal
https://www.facebook.com/Orthodox-Spiritual-Renewal-109217085790431

Project for Orthodox Renewal
http://ocl.org/ocl-publications/project-for-orthodox-renewal-2

Orthodox liturgical renewal
https://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/wcc-programmes/ecumenical-movement-in-the-21st-century/member-churches/special-commission-on-participation-of-orthodox-churches/sub-committee-ii-style-ethos-of-our-life-together/orthodox-liturgical-renewal
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 01:22:32 AM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,402
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Freemason Homo Church Infiltrator
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2017, 02:37:06 AM »
The OCA is basically anti-Pentecostalist at this point.
Is it?  How is this manifested?
One way to judge this would be to look at the views of the members by and large themselves. I also think the views of ACROD, the GOA, and OCA tend to be pretty similar on this. In case you belong to one of these churches, your own views would be relevant to what I mean. What are your own views on Pentecostalism?

But anyway, my understanding is not that they are publicly making some large campaign against the Pentecostals, rather they generally exclude Pentecostalist worship (eg. glossolalia) from their services.

So you are concerned about parishioners' opinions over what the Church(es) actually are actually teaching?  Besides the very visible aspect of glossolalia, what do you mean by Pentecostalist worship?


These are different Orthodox Renewal groups, and there are some members of at least one in the OCA:

Orthodox Spiritual Renewal
https://www.facebook.com/Orthodox-Spiritual-Renewal-109217085790431

Project for Orthodox Renewal
http://ocl.org/ocl-publications/project-for-orthodox-renewal-2

Orthodox liturgical renewal
https://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/wcc-programmes/ecumenical-movement-in-the-21st-century/member-churches/special-commission-on-participation-of-orthodox-churches/sub-committee-ii-style-ethos-of-our-life-together/orthodox-liturgical-renewal


What do you mean by Renewal?

So the first is an FB page which seems to be done by Fr. Timothy, dean of the OCA Cathedral in Wilkes-Barre.  It doesn't look like he updates with any frequency and has about 450 likes out of all the people on FB.  He has a Pentecostal/Charismatic background.

Did you read the OCL report?  What are your impressions/objections as it pertains to your definition of Pentecostalism?

And as far as New Skete, yeah, they have their own liturgical things they do.  I don't know of any parish (at least within the OCA Diocese of the South) that uses their stuff.  What are your impressions/objections within that report as it pertains to Pentecostalism?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,944
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Atef Aziz tonsured as Monk (rank of Stavrophor) Fr. Macarius in OCA
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 03:06:53 AM »
So you are concerned about parishioners' opinions over what the Church(es) actually are actually teaching?
They don't disturb me, in that sense of concern.
But I consider them to be one indicator of Church teaching.

Quote
Besides the very visible aspect of glossolalia, what do you mean by Pentecostalist worship?
Someone identifying as Pentecostalist would be a second example.

Pentecostalism has developed numerous traits, and they are not all essential to being considered Pentecostal. For example, Archmandrite Stephanou got hands laid on him by a Pentecostal at which point he considers that he got the Spirit upon him (supposed Pentecostal version of Baptism in the Spirit), and he started talking in tongues. This laying on of hands any time (even years) after baptism is something else Pentecostals do that is not part of Orthodoxy. But I don't consider it essential to Pentecostalism.

A fourth example would be the kind of syllable singing they do. It's important though to distinguish it from the Orthodox "Ison", that hums "iiiiiii" , "mmmmmm", etc. I would be curious to know how far back the Ison goes because the Charismatics claim different "hints" of their style of singing being found in older church practices.

Here is an example of their syllable singing:
Charismatic Catholics pray over Pope Francis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWcujx1II2w

Quote
What do you mean by Renewal?
The OCL came out of Archm. Stephanou's charismatic group and the OCL refers to itself as "Renewal". They mean "Renewal in the Spirit" by the "Renewal" term.
I doubt that this in itself is theologically defective per Orthodoxy.

So in my message I said that there are "Renewal" groups in Orthodoxy, but I wasn't implying necessarily that they are charismatics. I would want to ask the groups themselves if they are charismatic in order to judge it.

Quote
So the first is an FB page which seems to be done by Fr. Timothy, dean of the OCA Cathedral in Wilkes-Barre.  It doesn't look like he updates with any frequency and has about 450 likes out of all the people on FB.  He has a Pentecostal/Charismatic background.
Yes.
Quote
Did you read the OCL report?  What are your impressions/objections as it pertains to your definition of Pentecostalism?
I just read some of it. My guess is that there is nothing clearly Pentecostalist in it. For example, it cites the suspended Archm. Stephanou authoritatively:
Quote
The Very Reverend Eusebius Stephanou has asked the direct questions:

    Why the need for Orthodox spiritual renewal, when all the while the Holy Eucharist, which is celebrated every Sunday and on Feast days, is supposed to renew the Church both as a body of believers and as individual believers? Is there a missing ingredient? Every divine liturgy is, in a sense, a renewal conference. Why is it not meeting the need? (Stephanou).
http://ocl.org/ocl-publications/project-for-orthodox-renewal-2/spiritual-renewal/
I think you can say that some people get the Eucharist and yet the Eucharist alone does not meet all their needs. So the passage is not clearly Pentecostalist. It's just that it's citing Fr. Stephanou and it could be downplaying the importance of the Eucharist by declaring the Eucharist isn't meeting needs.

The report talks about the "Gifts" which is a Pentecostal buzzword, but actually can be an orthodox concept too:
Quote
The clergy, laity and hierarchy have different functions and gifts within the Church. They are the gifts within the Church. They are the gifts of the same Spirit given for the glory and unity of the Church.


Quote
And as far as New Skete, yeah, they have their own liturgical things they do.  I don't know of any parish (at least within the OCA Diocese of the South) that uses their stuff.  What are your impressions/objections within that report as it pertains to Pentecostalism?
For all I know, the report has nothing to do with Pentecostalism and is just talking about making liturgical changes. I don't know of connections between New Skete and Pentecostalism.
The only reason I bring it up is as an example of "Renewal".
My original point about this was that the OCA generally doesn't have Pentecostalist groups, it just has some groups dedicated to Renewal. And the reason I brought that up is because some Charismatics like Fr. Stephanou's OCL group eventually came to emphasize Renewal as their main concept.

"Renewal in the Spirit" is a concept emphasized by Charismatics, but I doubt that it's necessarily a Charismatic concept.

Hecma, since this thread about the ex-Pentecostalist(?) Fr. Makarius is in the Oriental Orthodox section, if you want to talk more about the OCA and Pentecostalism, do you think we should start a new thread for it? I am OK with continuing the tangent if you want.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20