Author Topic: On marrying a second wife  (Read 33098 times)

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Offline vamrat

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2016, 11:13:30 PM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

Why is it a stupid rule?
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

I thought the idea was that if your children were older or you were childless you'd go into a monastery and prepare to meet your spouse again when you joined him/her.  If you had children that needed a second parent you could marry again.  By marriage #3 statistics should have done their job and sent you on.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2016, 11:17:23 PM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2016, 04:48:21 AM »
Quote
That's cute and doesn't address any of my arguments
What are your arguments? That the church fathers allowed divorce because of adultery? Did not St. Paul himself state the Lord, not St. Paul himself ,command that a wife not depart from her husband and if she does, she is to remain unmarried? Or that the husband not put away his wife?

As for Jesus allowing divorce, he declared that Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts but it was not God's original intention of the two becoming "one flesh", therefore, Christ restored the original indissolubility of marriage when he declared what God has joined, no man put asunder, no man meaning even adultery. What is God so weak that mere man and his sinful actions can separate what the Almighty has bonded together? You better think about that.

Checkmate indeed.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2016, 04:54:37 AM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

Why is it a stupid rule?
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

I thought the idea was that if your children were older or you were childless you'd go into a monastery and prepare to meet your spouse again when you joined him/her.  If you had children that needed a second parent you could marry again.  By marriage #3 statistics should have done their job and sent you on.
I don't know what the kooky rules are in the East as far as marrying again after thrice divorce (or deaths). See, that's the problem, once you capitulate to allowing to  separate what God has joined, you run into all kinds of problems and silly speacial rules.

Allowing" divorce" is one of the most damaging errors within Christianity, it has opened the door to all kinds of problems. not just for the Church, but for the culture itself. Look at the destruction" civil " divorces has wrought upon our Christian societies today.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2016, 04:55:30 AM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2016, 05:12:25 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 05:12:42 AM by Arachne »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2016, 09:48:34 AM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

Why is it a stupid rule?
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

I thought the idea was that if your children were older or you were childless you'd go into a monastery and prepare to meet your spouse again when you joined him/her.  If you had children that needed a second parent you could marry again.  By marriage #3 statistics should have done their job and sent you on.
I don't know what the kooky rules are in the East as far as marrying again after thrice divorce (or deaths). See, that's the problem, once you capitulate to allowing to  separate what God has joined, you run into all kinds of problems and silly speacial rules.

Allowing" divorce" is one of the most damaging errors within Christianity, it has opened the door to all kinds of problems. not just for the Church, but for the culture itself. Look at the destruction" civil " divorces has wrought upon our Christian societies today.

Yeah, talk to the elderly or read biographies to find out how lovely it was to be trapped with an abusive spouse, or to be the child of an abusive parent and the mother could only sigh and let the abuse continue.  Many of those children grew up to perpetuate the cycle of abuse.   

The attitude you are displaying was also a driving force behind the nearly complete destruction of indigenous families from Canada all the way to South America while clerical greed stripped them of everything else while they were at it. 
 

Family values...ha!
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Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2016, 11:30:42 AM »
Quote
That's cute and doesn't address any of my arguments
What are your arguments? That the church fathers allowed divorce because of adultery? Did not St. Paul himself state the Lord, not St. Paul himself ,command that a wife not depart from her husband and if she does, she is to remain unmarried? Or that the husband not put away his wife?

As for Jesus allowing divorce, he declared that Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts but it was not God's original intention of the two becoming "one flesh", therefore, Christ restored the original indissolubility of marriage when he declared what God has joined, no man put asunder, no man meaning even adultery. What is God so weak that mere man and his sinful actions can separate what the Almighty has bonded together? You better think about that.

Checkmate indeed.

You better think about actually reading my entire posts instead of taking the first part and forming a strawman. At no point did you address the grammar nor address the exceptions clause Christ made, nor did you address the fact of the lack of distinction between legal and sacramental divorce that I brought up.

You better think about how evil it is to make a great number of people suffer unnecessarily or to at least make them feel incredibly guilty for divorcing when it was for the best. Marriages are dissoluble, and you haven't addressed a single argument of mine that I've made.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 11:31:11 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2016, 12:03:18 PM »
What is God so weak that mere man and his sinful actions can separate what the Almighty has bonded together?

According to your Church, even one mortal sin separates the sinner from God.  If, to use your words, God is so weak that one mere man and his sinful actions can break the relationship between him and God, why would he be better at dealing with two people?   
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2016, 12:21:57 PM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2016, 06:39:04 PM »
Quote
That's cute and doesn't address any of my arguments
What are your arguments? That the church fathers allowed divorce because of adultery? Did not St. Paul himself state the Lord, not St. Paul himself ,command that a wife not depart from her husband and if she does, she is to remain unmarried? Or that the husband not put away his wife?

As for Jesus allowing divorce, he declared that Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts but it was not God's original intention of the two becoming "one flesh", therefore, Christ restored the original indissolubility of marriage when he declared what God has joined, no man put asunder, no man meaning even adultery. What is God so weak that mere man and his sinful actions can separate what the Almighty has bonded together? You better think about that.

Checkmate indeed.

You better think about actually reading my entire posts instead of taking the first part and forming a strawman. At no point did you address the grammar nor address the exceptions clause Christ made, nor did you address the fact of the lack of distinction between legal and sacramental divorce that I brought up.

You better think about how evil it is to make a great number of people suffer unnecessarily or to at least make them feel incredibly guilty for divorcing when it was for the best. Marriages are dissoluble, and you haven't addressed a single argument of mine that I've made.

Marriages are indissoluble. That's Christianity 101. Read the fathers man.

You can put away your wife/husband (separate from them) but not divorce as divorce means end of marriage. That's is not allowed and is impossible other than by death.  The fathers are clear as day on this

St Ambrose of Milan

"You dismiss your wife, therefore, as if by right and without being charged with wrongdoing; and you suppose it is proper for you to do so because no human law forbids it; but divine law forbids it. Anyone who obeys men ought to stand in awe of God. Hear the law of the Lord, which even they who propose our laws must obey: ‘What God has joined together let no man put asunder’

St Jerome

"Do not tell me about the violence of the ravisher, about the persuasiveness of a mother, about the authority of a father, about the influence of relatives, about the intrigues and insolence of servants, or about household [financial] losses. So long as a husband lives, be he adulterer, be he sodomite, be he addicted to every kind of vice, if she left him on account of his crimes, he is her husband still and she may not take another"

Pope Innocent I

"The practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead."

St Justin Martyr

"And, "Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced from another husband, commits adultery." And, "There are some who have been made eunuchs of men, and some who were born eunuchs, and some who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake; but all cannot receive this saying." So that all who, by human law, are twice married, are in the eye of our Master sinners"
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 06:59:56 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2016, 07:33:06 PM »
Sources and citations, Wandile? Many thanks.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 07:33:19 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2016, 01:14:51 AM »
Sources and citations, Wandile? Many thanks.

Ibid., loc. cit., and ... .
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2016, 06:28:52 AM »
Sources and citations, Wandile? Many thanks.

Ibid., loc. cit., and ... .

And Good day to you  :)
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2016, 08:35:31 AM »
Sources and citations, Wandile? Many thanks.

St Ambrose : Commentary on Luke 8:5

St Justin Martyr : First Apology chapter 15
Link : http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Pope Innocent I : Letters 2:13:15
Link : http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0401-0417__SS_Innocentius_I__Epistolae_Et_Decreta__MLT.pdf.html
(Link is only in Latin though)

St Jerome : Letters 55:3 also known as Letter to Amandus
Link : http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001055.htm
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:35:57 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2016, 04:59:42 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)
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Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2016, 05:03:35 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2016, 05:19:58 AM »
Quote
Yeah, talk to the elderly or read biographies to find out how lovely it was to be trapped with an abusive spouse, or to be the child of an abusive parent and the mother could only sigh and let the abuse continue.
I don't know the exact numbers, but I would gather you are talking about a minimal fraction of most marriages "back in the day". At any rate, men and women were held to a higher standard years ago because both more or less knew their role and family was of the utmost importance, especially over your own personal feelings in an "abusive" (that could mean just about anything these days) relationship. Having said this, the Church was always compassionate and charitable to any spouse who was indeed being abused and possibly entwined in an invalid mariage to being with, hence they should seek out advice and look to a marriage tribunal to investigate the validity of their marriage under the proper guidlines, which these days almost no one does, they just go and seek civil divorce and separate from the Church altogether.

Quote
The attitude you are displaying was also a driving force behind the nearly complete destruction of indigenous families from Canada all the way to South America while clerical greed stripped them of everything else while they were at it. 
Oh, please, don't start with this anti-Catholic propaganda nonsense. If anything, the Church was there to support and defend families, under much persecution themselves from rogue states and govts, like in Mexico where the socilaists were killing children in the name of wiping out religion and the Church herself. The Church has always defended the family at all costs against greedy secular European colonial govts here in the New World and let's not forget how much the "indigenous" rulers themselves genocided thousands of their own in war, slavery and  in the name of worshipping bloodthirsty false, pagan gods.

All men are fallen and sinful, but the Church has always been a refuge against such evils and vigorously defended the rights and safety of the family and the sacrament of Marriage.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2016, 05:22:06 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
I agree, but i'm just saying it's possible, tis all.

So why not a fourth marriage, hell, you already allowed three?
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2016, 05:40:50 AM »
[quoteYou better think about actually reading my entire posts instead of taking the first part and forming a strawman. At no point did you address the grammar nor address the exceptions clause Christ made, nor did you address the fact of the lack of distinction between legal and sacramental divorce that I brought up. ][/quote] First of all, I'm not a biblical scholar or a believer in Sola Scriptura or about splitting hairs about what Christ "really" meant what he said or will even get into some kind of verbal gymnastics regarding semantics with His words. What I do know is that over the course of two millenia we have popes, tradition and the magesterium that have relentelessy studied and make those decisions regarding the interpretation of Scripture regarding the sacrament of marriage  and what Christ "really meant what He said". on the issue. As for civil divorce, that's a different issue but the Chruch does not recognize sacramental divorce, period. there's no debate here.

Quote
You better think about how evil it is to make a great number of people suffer unnecessarily or to at least make them feel incredibly guilty for divorcing when it was for the best.
So maybe the pope is right, they were never married at all to begin with. (I'll admit, I haven't read into that acutally). Look, I'm not into "guilting" anyone truly suffering, but there is a process that we do have and, sad to say, these days, just about anyone who truly seeks to annul a possibly invalid marriage will probably get one, so I don't thin it's as big a deal as you and many others on here make it.

I've seen far too many, even in my own family, not take the time to approach the Church so they can investigate, but yet, when they practically demanded the Chruch to marry them almost at a single notice when they haven't stepped foot in a church prior for years. This is all too typical, escpecially in the "gotta have it my way" USA.

Quote
Marriages are dissoluble,
Sorry they're  not. And  the Church and the popes, tradition and magesterium of two thousand years disagree with you.

Quote
and you haven't addressed a single argument of mine that I've made.
I would if you actually had one. ;)
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2016, 05:45:01 AM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies?
Are you being serious? So your saying that in the afterlife spouses will still be married?

Let me ask you this sharp guy, if that's the case, which one of your wives from your three marriages wil you be with in heaven?

That's assuming you're actually going to make it there. ;D
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2016, 05:46:24 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
I agree, but i'm just saying it's possible, tis all.

So why not a fourth marriage, hell, you already allowed three?

As I said further up, we believe in taking a hint. Especially if all three marriages failed for the same reason (which can make one practically unmarriageable anyway).
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2016, 12:20:21 PM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies?

Marriage ends at death of one or both spouses. The fathers and scripture have taught explicitly on this.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2016, 01:28:20 PM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies?

Marriage ends at death of one or both spouses. The fathers and scripture have taught explicitly on this.

Where? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2016, 01:45:12 PM »
Quote
Yeah, talk to the elderly or read biographies to find out how lovely it was to be trapped with an abusive spouse, or to be the child of an abusive parent and the mother could only sigh and let the abuse continue.
I don't know the exact numbers, but I would gather you are talking about a minimal fraction of most marriages "back in the day". At any rate, men and women were held to a higher standard years ago because both more or less knew their role and family was of the utmost importance, especially over your own personal feelings in an "abusive" (that could mean just about anything these days) relationship. Having said this, the Church was always compassionate and charitable to any spouse who was indeed being abused and possibly entwined in an invalid mariage to being with, hence they should seek out advice and look to a marriage tribunal to investigate the validity of their marriage under the proper guidlines, which these days almost no one does, they just go and seek civil divorce and separate from the Church altogether.

Do you actually believe this?  I can tell you stories of priests who revealed the contents of one spouse's confession to the other spouse in order to keep them in the marriage via holy blackmail so that in-laws didn't have to suffer or siblings could get married without the black cloud of a soiled reputation, etc., and I could tell you of the bishops who refused to discipline said priests but rather enabled them.  And that's not all.  And if these things happen in the 21st century, I'm sure they've happened before when people were even more focused on the idea of "family" as of "the utmost importance" even to the point where "it is expedient for you that one man spouse should die for you, and that the whole nation family should not perish". 

You're so American you can't understand how things were "back in the day" except through some idealised Andy Warholesque frame of reference.  The way things often happen in traditional cultures today are how they happened even in your own culture, both for the better and for the worse.  And "the Church" isn't/wasn't always helpful.   
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2016, 02:49:07 PM »
Quote
Yeah, talk to the elderly or read biographies to find out how lovely it was to be trapped with an abusive spouse, or to be the child of an abusive parent and the mother could only sigh and let the abuse continue.
I don't know the exact numbers, but I would gather you are talking about a minimal fraction of most marriages "back in the day". At any rate, men and women were held to a higher standard years ago because both more or less knew their role and family was of the utmost importance, especially over your own personal feelings in an "abusive" (that could mean just about anything these days) relationship. Having said this, the Church was always compassionate and charitable to any spouse who was indeed being abused and possibly entwined in an invalid mariage to being with, hence they should seek out advice and look to a marriage tribunal to investigate the validity of their marriage under the proper guidlines, which these days almost no one does, they just go and seek civil divorce and separate from the Church altogether.

Do you actually believe this?  I can tell you stories of priests who revealed the contents of one spouse's confession to the other spouse in order to keep them in the marriage via holy blackmail so that in-laws didn't have to suffer or siblings could get married without the black cloud of a soiled reputation, etc., and I could tell you of the bishops who refused to discipline said priests but rather enabled them.  And that's not all.  And if these things happen in the 21st century, I'm sure they've happened before when people were even more focused on the idea of "family" as of "the utmost importance" even to the point where "it is expedient for you that one man spouse should die for you, and that the whole nation family should not perish". 

You're so American you can't understand how things were "back in the day" except through some idealised Andy Warholesque frame of reference.  The way things often happen in traditional cultures today are how they happened even in your own culture, both for the better and for the worse.  And "the Church" isn't/wasn't always helpful.   
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2016, 04:15:40 PM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies?

Marriage ends at death of one or both spouses. The fathers and scripture have taught explicitly on this.

Where?

St. Ambrose of Milan

"No one is permitted to know a woman other than his wife. The marital right is given you for this reason: lest you fall into the snare and sin with a strange woman. "If you are bound to a wife, do not seek a divorce"; for you are not permitted, while your wife lives, to marry another"
 (Abraham 1:7:59 )

St Jerome

"Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives"
(Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9).

Pope Innocent I [A.D. 408]

"The practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead"
(Letters 2:13:15 )

Origen

"Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seem to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry her who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her"
(Commentaries on Matthew 14:24 [A.D. 248])

Council of Elvira

"Likewise, a woman of the faith who has left an adulterous husband of the faith and marries another, her marrying in this manner is prohibited. If she has so married, she may not receive Communion—unless he that she has left has since departed from this world"
 (Canon 9).

St Agustine

"A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication”

Council of Aries (314)

"As regards those who find their wives to be guilty of adultery, and who being Christian are, though young men, forbidden to marry, we decree that, so far as may be, counsel be given them not to take other wives, while their own, though guilty of adultery, are yet living."
(canon 10)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 04:17:13 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2016, 08:40:06 PM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
I agree, but i'm just saying it's possible, tis all.

So why not a fourth marriage, hell, you already allowed three?

As I said further up, we believe in taking a hint. Especially if all three marriages failed for the same reason (which can make one practically unmarriageable anyway).
Sooo.......that's it? Taking a hint? That's all you have for explaining away the three mulligan rule?

That's not very reassuring.

I've got a hint for you............one divorce is one too many.


Now an invalid marriage, that's another story.

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2016, 09:08:15 PM »
Quote
Yeah, talk to the elderly or read biographies to find out how lovely it was to be trapped with an abusive spouse, or to be the child of an abusive parent and the mother could only sigh and let the abuse continue.
I don't know the exact numbers, but I would gather you are talking about a minimal fraction of most marriages "back in the day". At any rate, men and women were held to a higher standard years ago because both more or less knew their role and family was of the utmost importance, especially over your own personal feelings in an "abusive" (that could mean just about anything these days) relationship. Having said this, the Church was always compassionate and charitable to any spouse who was indeed being abused and possibly entwined in an invalid mariage to being with, hence they should seek out advice and look to a marriage tribunal to investigate the validity of their marriage under the proper guidlines, which these days almost no one does, they just go and seek civil divorce and separate from the Church altogether.

Do you actually believe this?  I can tell you stories of priests who revealed the contents of one spouse's confession to the other spouse in order to keep them in the marriage via holy blackmail so that in-laws didn't have to suffer or siblings could get married without the black cloud of a soiled reputation, etc., and I could tell you of the bishops who refused to discipline said priests but rather enabled them.  And that's not all.  And if these things happen in the 21st century, I'm sure they've happened before when people were even more focused on the idea of "family" as of "the utmost importance" even to the point where "it is expedient for you that one man spouse should die for you, and that the whole nation family should not perish". 

You're so American you can't understand how things were "back in the day" except through some idealised Andy Warholesque frame of reference.  The way things often happen in traditional cultures today are how they happened even in your own culture, both for the better and for the worse.  And "the Church" isn't/wasn't always helpful.   
There's been bad priests and bad bishops in the Church since the beginning (ever heard of Judas Iscariot?). If that story is indeed true and that's a big "if", the injured spouse should've went over the bishop's head to seek justice . Or keep going until she/he did. BTW, did the confessor priest  admit to this violation of his vows? Or was this in some way assumed by one party that felt his/her trust had been violated . I've never heard of a priest breaking confidentiality from a confession, this is a serious and grave matter in the Church which would lead  to latae sententiae (automatic excommunication), only the pope himself could lift this excommunication. I have serious doubts that not only the priest would violate the Seal of Confession, but his bishop as well. They both would be in big trouble, not too mention that what your describing is absolutley, strictly condemned by the Catholic Church, so it's a poor example of a "story" which one would believe the Church is full of corruption.


And I don't know what me being "so American" has do to with anything. I actually completely reject Americanism, like any good traditional Roman Catholic would or should.  As for the Church having some bad apples, well, the Church has always been full of sinners, men are fallen creatures, but the Church herself , the Bride of Christ, is Holy and without blemish.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 09:10:12 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2016, 10:47:45 PM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies?

Marriage ends at death of one or both spouses. The fathers and scripture have taught explicitly on this.

Where?

St. Ambrose of Milan

"No one is permitted to know a woman other than his wife. The marital right is given you for this reason: lest you fall into the snare and sin with a strange woman. "If you are bound to a wife, do not seek a divorce"; for you are not permitted, while your wife lives, to marry another"
 (Abraham 1:7:59 )

St Jerome

"Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives"
(Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9).

Pope Innocent I [A.D. 408]

"The practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead"
(Letters 2:13:15 )

Origen

"Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seem to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry her who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her"
(Commentaries on Matthew 14:24 [A.D. 248])

Council of Elvira

"Likewise, a woman of the faith who has left an adulterous husband of the faith and marries another, her marrying in this manner is prohibited. If she has so married, she may not receive Communion—unless he that she has left has since departed from this world"
 (Canon 9).

St Agustine

"A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication”

Council of Aries (314)

"As regards those who find their wives to be guilty of adultery, and who being Christian are, though young men, forbidden to marry, we decree that, so far as may be, counsel be given them not to take other wives, while their own, though guilty of adultery, are yet living."
(canon 10)

None of those texts say that marriage "ends" with the death of a spouse, they merely describe the circumstances under which they allow a person to marry again. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2016, 11:08:49 PM »
There's been bad priests and bad bishops in the Church since the beginning (ever heard of Judas Iscariot?). If that story is indeed true and that's a big "if"

Like I said, I can name names.  Whether or not you believe that is of no concern to me.

Quote
...the injured spouse should've went over the bishop's head to seek justice . Or keep going until she/he did.

Churches are composed of people, Charles.  They are not composed of theological and canonical formulae found in books.  It is not always easy to seek justice from those who are denying it to you in the first place. 

Quote
BTW, did the confessor priest  admit to this violation of his vows? Or was this in some way assumed by one party that felt his/her trust had been violated . I've never heard of a priest breaking confidentiality from a confession...

They don't typically admit it, they get caught.  And that happens when someone realises that what s/he only told the confessor has been revealed to someone else.

Quote
...this is a serious and grave matter in the Church which would lead  to latae sententiae (automatic excommunication), only the pope himself could lift this excommunication.

Latae sententiae excommunication is a joke. 

Quote
I have serious doubts that not only the priest would violate the Seal of Confession, but his bishop as well. They both would be in big trouble, not too mention that what your describing is absolutley, strictly condemned by the Catholic Church, so it's a poor example of a "story" which one would believe the Church is full of corruption.

"I have serious doubts that priests would molest children and their bishops would protect them.  That's absolutely, strictly condemned by the Catholic Church, so it's a poor example of a 'story' which one would believe the Church is full of corruption."

Things happen, Charles.  Bad things.  Evil things.  It doesn't mean the Church is bad, but it does mean that there are Christians at all levels of the Church who are not so great.   

Quote
And I don't know what me being "so American" has do to with anything. I actually completely reject Americanism, like any good traditional Roman Catholic would or should.  As for the Church having some bad apples, well, the Church has always been full of sinners, men are fallen creatures, but the Church herself , the Bride of Christ, is Holy and without blemish.

Americans know precious little about how traditional cultures operate other than some hackneyed stereotypes they trot out in order to make themselves feel superior.  Yet, what they criticise in others are things your parents and grandparents would have been familiar with when it came to their own culture. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2016, 03:43:04 AM »
Quote
Yeah, talk to the elderly or read biographies to find out how lovely it was to be trapped with an abusive spouse, or to be the child of an abusive parent and the mother could only sigh and let the abuse continue.
I don't know the exact numbers, but I would gather you are talking about a minimal fraction of most marriages "back in the day". At any rate, men and women were held to a higher standard years ago because both more or less knew their role and family was of the utmost importance, especially over your own personal feelings in an "abusive" (that could mean just about anything these days) relationship. Having said this, the Church was always compassionate and charitable to any spouse who was indeed being abused and possibly entwined in an invalid mariage to being with, hence they should seek out advice and look to a marriage tribunal to investigate the validity of their marriage under the proper guidlines, which these days almost no one does, they just go and seek civil divorce and separate from the Church altogether.

Do you actually believe this?  I can tell you stories of priests who revealed the contents of one spouse's confession to the other spouse in order to keep them in the marriage via holy blackmail so that in-laws didn't have to suffer or siblings could get married without the black cloud of a soiled reputation, etc., and I could tell you of the bishops who refused to discipline said priests but rather enabled them.  And that's not all.  And if these things happen in the 21st century, I'm sure they've happened before when people were even more focused on the idea of "family" as of "the utmost importance" even to the point where "it is expedient for you that one man spouse should die for you, and that the whole nation family should not perish". 

You're so American you can't understand how things were "back in the day" except through some idealised Andy Warholesque frame of reference.  The way things often happen in traditional cultures today are how they happened even in your own culture, both for the better and for the worse.  And "the Church" isn't/wasn't always helpful.   
There's been bad priests and bad bishops in the Church since the beginning (ever heard of Judas Iscariot?). If that story is indeed true and that's a big "if", the injured spouse should've went over the bishop's head to seek justice . Or keep going until she/he did. BTW, did the confessor priest  admit to this violation of his vows? Or was this in some way assumed by one party that felt his/her trust had been violated . I've never heard of a priest breaking confidentiality from a confession, this is a serious and grave matter in the Church which would lead  to latae sententiae (automatic excommunication), only the pope himself could lift this excommunication. I have serious doubts that not only the priest would violate the Seal of Confession, but his bishop as well. They both would be in big trouble, not too mention that what your describing is absolutley, strictly condemned by the Catholic Church, so it's a poor example of a "story" which one would believe the Church is full of corruption.


And I don't know what me being "so American" has do to with anything. I actually completely reject Americanism, like any good traditional Roman Catholic would or should.  As for the Church having some bad apples, well, the Church has always been full of sinners, men are fallen creatures, but the Church herself , the Bride of Christ, is Holy and without blemish.
you haven't heard a priest breaking confidentiality..ask me then.A priest I know had 'confessed'to me secrets of his spiritual child..Church is still flesh you know but since we are not saints either..God forgive us all

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2016, 03:44:05 AM »
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Isn't marriage indissoluble?
You better go ask your "pope" that pne.

Nice try, but we're talking about your religion.  If marriage is as indissoluble as you say, then why can someone attempt marriage again if their spouse dies?

Marriage ends at death of one or both spouses. The fathers and scripture have taught explicitly on this.

Where?

St. Ambrose of Milan

"No one is permitted to know a woman other than his wife. The marital right is given you for this reason: lest you fall into the snare and sin with a strange woman. "If you are bound to a wife, do not seek a divorce"; for you are not permitted, while your wife lives, to marry another"
 (Abraham 1:7:59 )

St Jerome

"Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives"
(Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9).

Pope Innocent I [A.D. 408]

"The practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead"
(Letters 2:13:15 )

Origen

"Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seem to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry her who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her"
(Commentaries on Matthew 14:24 [A.D. 248])

Council of Elvira

"Likewise, a woman of the faith who has left an adulterous husband of the faith and marries another, her marrying in this manner is prohibited. If she has so married, she may not receive Communion—unless he that she has left has since departed from this world"
 (Canon 9).

St Agustine

"A woman begins to be the wife of no later husband unless she has ceased to be the wife of a former one. She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication. A spouse, therefore, is lawfully dismissed for cause of fornication; but the bond of chastity remains. That is why a man is guilty of adultery if he marries a woman who has been dismissed even for this very reason of fornication”

Council of Aries (314)

"As regards those who find their wives to be guilty of adultery, and who being Christian are, though young men, forbidden to marry, we decree that, so far as may be, counsel be given them not to take other wives, while their own, though guilty of adultery, are yet living."
(canon 10)

None of those texts say that marriage "ends" with the death of a spouse, they merely describe the circumstances under which they allow a person to marry again.

Most explicitly:

St Augustine

"She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication"

The emphasis on "living spouse" is to show that even though you are separated, a sacramental marriage still persists. Hence to marry while your sacramental marriage still exists is adultery (the fathers and scripture call such a person an adulterer/adulterous). It's isn't adultery when your spouse is dead i.e. the sacramental marriage is over.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:51:05 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2016, 05:03:45 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
I agree, but i'm just saying it's possible, tis all.

So why not a fourth marriage, hell, you already allowed three?

As I said further up, we believe in taking a hint. Especially if all three marriages failed for the same reason (which can make one practically unmarriageable anyway).
Sooo.......that's it? Taking a hint? That's all you have for explaining away the three mulligan rule?

That's not very reassuring.

I've got a hint for you............one divorce is one too many.


Now an invalid marriage, that's another story.

There's nothing to 'explain away'. The Church applies economia, a concession to human weakness, but thata does not extend forever. Permission to remarry is not always granted, and, in our understanding, a marriage is not invalidated by one or both parties' inability or unwillingness to live up to its demands. Why is your side so firmly against admitting failure?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2016, 06:40:15 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
I agree, but i'm just saying it's possible, tis all.

So why not a fourth marriage, hell, you already allowed three?

As I said further up, we believe in taking a hint. Especially if all three marriages failed for the same reason (which can make one practically unmarriageable anyway).
Sooo.......that's it? Taking a hint? That's all you have for explaining away the three mulligan rule?

That's not very reassuring.

I've got a hint for you............one divorce is one too many.


Now an invalid marriage, that's another story.

There's nothing to 'explain away'. The Church applies economia, a concession to human weakness, but thata does not extend forever. Permission to remarry is not always granted, and, in our understanding, a marriage is not invalidated by one or both parties' inability or unwillingness to live up to its demands. Why is your side so firmly against admitting failure?

Annulments exist in all apostolic churches. It's is not an exclusively Roman practice. The EO and OO have annulments too
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

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Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2016, 06:42:15 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
Hey, these things happen. ;)

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.'--Ian Fleming

In short: 'Aw hell no!' 8)
I agree, but i'm just saying it's possible, tis all.

So why not a fourth marriage, hell, you already allowed three?

As I said further up, we believe in taking a hint. Especially if all three marriages failed for the same reason (which can make one practically unmarriageable anyway).
Sooo.......that's it? Taking a hint? That's all you have for explaining away the three mulligan rule?

That's not very reassuring.

I've got a hint for you............one divorce is one too many.


Now an invalid marriage, that's another story.

There's nothing to 'explain away'. The Church applies economia, a concession to human weakness, but thata does not extend forever. Permission to remarry is not always granted, and, in our understanding, a marriage is not invalidated by one or both parties' inability or unwillingness to live up to its demands. Why is your side so firmly against admitting failure?

Annulments exist in all apostolic churches. It's is not an exclusively Roman practice. The EO and OO have annulments too

Not as a substitute for divorce, though. 'Marriage went bad' and 'marriage never existed' are different things. After all, the sticking point is not the separation itself, it's the chance of remarriage afterwards.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2016, 01:19:26 PM »
Most explicitly:

St Augustine

"She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication"

The emphasis on "living spouse" is to show that even though you are separated, a sacramental marriage still persists. Hence to marry while your sacramental marriage still exists is adultery (the fathers and scripture call such a person an adulterer/adulterous). It's isn't adultery when your spouse is dead i.e. the sacramental marriage is over.

Again, that has nothing to say about whether the relationship between two spouses is terminated by the death of one.  It only talks about the circumstances in which a person who was once married might marry a second time. 

If a woman marries, is widowed, and never marries again, it doesn't mean she is unmarried.   
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2016, 02:57:18 PM »
Therefore, if a divorced woman, who has been separated (from her husband) in soul as well as body, through discord, anger, hatred, and the causes of these— injury, or contumely, or whatsoever cause of complaint— is bound to a personal enemy, not to say a husband, how much more will one who, neither by her own nor her husband's fault, but by an event resulting from the Lord's law, has been— not separated from, but left behind by— her consort, be his, even when dead, to whom, even when dead, she owes (the debt of) concord? From him from whom she has heard no (word of) divorce she does not turn away; with him she is, to whom she has written no (document of) divorce; him whom she was unwilling to have lost, she retains. She has within her the licence of the mind, which represents to a man, in imaginary enjoyment, all things which he has not.

In short, I ask the woman herself, "Tell me, sister, have you sent your husband before you (to his rest) in peace?" What will she answer? (Will she say), "In discord?" In that case she is the more bound to him with whom she has a cause (to plead) at the bar of God. She who is bound (to another) has not departed (from him). But (will she say), "In peace?" In that case, she must necessarily persevere in that (peace) with him whom she will no longer have the power to divorce; not that she would, even if she had been able to divorce him, have been marriageable. Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversaries of his falling asleep. For, unless she does these deeds, she has in the true sense divorced him, so far as in her lies; and indeed the more iniquitously— inasmuch as (she did it) as far as was in her power— because she had no power (to do it); and with the more indignity, inasmuch as it is with more indignity if (her reason for doing it is) because he did not deserve it.

Or else shall we, pray, cease to be after death, according to (the teaching of) some Epicurus, and not according to (that of) Christ? But if we believe the resurrection of the dead, of course we shall be bound to them with whom we are destined to rise, to render an account the one of the other. But if;in that age they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be equal to angels; is not the fact that there will be no restitution of the conjugal relation a reason why we shall not be bound to our departed consorts? Nay, but the more shall we be bound (to them), because we are destined to a better estate— destined (as we are) to rise to a spiritual consortship, to recognise as well our own selves as them who are ours. Else how shall we sing thanks to God to eternity, if there shall remain in us no sense and memory of this debt; if we shall be re-formed in substance, not in consciousness?

Consequently, we who shall be with God shall be together; since we shall all be with the one God— albeit the wages be various, albeit there be many mansions, in the house of the same Father having laboured for the one penny of the self-same hire, that is, of eternal life; in which (eternal life) God will still less separate them whom He has conjoined, than in this lesser life He forbids them to be separated.


Tertullian, On Monogamy X

It seems to me based on this, the Church, at least where Tertullian was, has not seen that marriage "ends" with the departed spouse.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 02:57:42 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2016, 03:27:16 PM »
Therefore, if a divorced woman, who has been separated (from her husband) in soul as well as body, through discord, anger, hatred, and the causes of these— injury, or contumely, or whatsoever cause of complaint— is bound to a personal enemy, not to say a husband, how much more will one who, neither by her own nor her husband's fault, but by an event resulting from the Lord's law, has been— not separated from, but left behind by— her consort, be his, even when dead, to whom, even when dead, she owes (the debt of) concord? From him from whom she has heard no (word of) divorce she does not turn away; with him she is, to whom she has written no (document of) divorce; him whom she was unwilling to have lost, she retains. She has within her the licence of the mind, which represents to a man, in imaginary enjoyment, all things which he has not.

In short, I ask the woman herself, "Tell me, sister, have you sent your husband before you (to his rest) in peace?" What will she answer? (Will she say), "In discord?" In that case she is the more bound to him with whom she has a cause (to plead) at the bar of God. She who is bound (to another) has not departed (from him). But (will she say), "In peace?" In that case, she must necessarily persevere in that (peace) with him whom she will no longer have the power to divorce; not that she would, even if she had been able to divorce him, have been marriageable. Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversaries of his falling asleep. For, unless she does these deeds, she has in the true sense divorced him, so far as in her lies; and indeed the more iniquitously— inasmuch as (she did it) as far as was in her power— because she had no power (to do it); and with the more indignity, inasmuch as it is with more indignity if (her reason for doing it is) because he did not deserve it.

Or else shall we, pray, cease to be after death, according to (the teaching of) some Epicurus, and not according to (that of) Christ? But if we believe the resurrection of the dead, of course we shall be bound to them with whom we are destined to rise, to render an account the one of the other. But if;in that age they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be equal to angels; is not the fact that there will be no restitution of the conjugal relation a reason why we shall not be bound to our departed consorts? Nay, but the more shall we be bound (to them), because we are destined to a better estate— destined (as we are) to rise to a spiritual consortship, to recognise as well our own selves as them who are ours. Else how shall we sing thanks to God to eternity, if there shall remain in us no sense and memory of this debt; if we shall be re-formed in substance, not in consciousness?

Consequently, we who shall be with God shall be together; since we shall all be with the one God— albeit the wages be various, albeit there be many mansions, in the house of the same Father having laboured for the one penny of the self-same hire, that is, of eternal life; in which (eternal life) God will still less separate them whom He has conjoined, than in this lesser life He forbids them to be separated.


Tertullian, On Monogamy X

It seems to me based on this, the Church, at least where Tertullian was, has not seen that marriage "ends" with the departed spouse.

His view on marriage is directly derived from montanism. Montanism had an ethical rigorism and asceticism. These included prohibitions against remarriage following divorce or the death of a spouse.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2016, 03:33:57 PM »
Most explicitly:

St Augustine

"She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication"

The emphasis on "living spouse" is to show that even though you are separated, a sacramental marriage still persists. Hence to marry while your sacramental marriage still exists is adultery (the fathers and scripture call such a person an adulterer/adulterous). It's isn't adultery when your spouse is dead i.e. the sacramental marriage is over.

Again, that has nothing to say about whether the relationship between two spouses is terminated by the death of one.
Point blank it means the marriage is over and the person is unmarried. A married person cannot marry again while married lest they commit adultery. This is manifest in the fathers and it takes serious mental gymnastics to avoid this end.

Reminder :"she swill cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die"

Quote
It only talks about the circumstances in which a person who was once married might marry a second time. 
Once married... Meaning they aren't married anymore. The reason why you can't marry while your spouse is alive is because you are still married to them in the eyes of God,hence its adulterous to take another partner as that would be cheating (adultery). A single person can't commit adultery hence it is allowed upon the death of a spouse (sacramental marriage is ended and the person is now single) to marry again.

Quote
If a woman marries, is widowed, and never marries again, it doesn't mean she is unmarried.   

It means exactly that
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:36:06 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2016, 05:16:37 PM »
Quote
Like I said, I can name names.  Whether or not you believe that is of no concern to me.
You can name names? Great, and I'm sure said priest will corroborate your "story". But you're right, all this internet banter means nothing, see, I rely on this little thing called evidence and that little thing my friend, you know and i know, you will be lacking of. so for now, until you do, let's move on.

Quote
Churches are composed of people, Charles.  They are not composed of theological and canonical formulae found in books.  It is not always easy to seek justice from those who are denying it to you in the first place. 
Well, this we can agree with. But the question is, is it really "justice" or someone's runaway imagination? Only those involved know for sure.

Quote
They don't typically admit it, they get caught.  And that happens when someone realises that what s/he only told the confessor has been revealed to someone else.
And I'm sure, said penitent, NEVER told anyone else. Uh-huh..Can you really know for sure?

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Latae sententiae excommunication is a joke. 
Not to us it isn't. but, you know what is? Being allowed to divorce three times.

Quote
"I have serious doubts that priests would molest children and their bishops would protect them.  That's absolutely, strictly condemned by the Catholic Church, so it's a poor example of a 'story' which one would believe the Church is full of corruption."
If you want my opinion on this, if that's the case, both priest and bishop should be tried , convicted and summarily exectued, that's how strongly I'm opposed to this scandal in the Church. Please don't try and make that kind of comaprison to me, there is none. But the fact is, again, what your saying has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't know how you do that from a confessional booth. It's all "he said, she said" kind of stuff.

Quote
Things happen, Charles.  Bad things.  Evil things.  It doesn't mean the Church is bad, but it does mean that there are Christians at all levels of the Church who are not so great.   
True, like I said, the Church is full of sinners. But, when it comes spiritual matters and temporal/ legal  matters, there's different accountability. 

Quote
Americans know precious little about how traditional cultures operate other than some hackneyed stereotypes they trot out in order to make themselves feel superior
This is your opinion. But, i'm sure tradtional cultures  don't have the grandest view of American culture either. I'm sure your precious, innocent "cultures" have a good laugh themsleves over the "stupid american". And you know what, more times than not, I probably agree with them.

Quote
  Yet, what they criticise in others are things your parents and grandparents would have been familiar with when it came to their own culture.
I loved my parents and grandparents culture, this culture you see around you now is more of the rotting husk of what's left of it. I don't know why you're attempting to browbeat a traditionalist over traditional culture/values.

Oh btw, one of those values of my parents/grandparents Catholic culture is we didn't divorce(civilly) when the going got tough and the Church didn't grant them. But yea, I know, i'm going to hear a thousand examples of hell on earth marriages and excuse to rend what God has joined together.  But then again, we did have our share of annullments. Well, not in my family per se.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:19:16 PM by Charles Martel »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2016, 11:16:33 PM »
Most explicitly:

St Augustine

"She will cease to be the wife of a former one, however, if that husband should die, not if he commit fornication"

The emphasis on "living spouse" is to show that even though you are separated, a sacramental marriage still persists. Hence to marry while your sacramental marriage still exists is adultery (the fathers and scripture call such a person an adulterer/adulterous). It's isn't adultery when your spouse is dead i.e. the sacramental marriage is over.

Again, that has nothing to say about whether the relationship between two spouses is terminated by the death of one.
Point blank it means the marriage is over and the person is unmarried.

No, that's not point black what it means. 

Quote
A married person cannot marry again while married lest they commit adultery.

That's what this is about.

Quote
Quote
It only talks about the circumstances in which a person who was once married might marry a second time. 
Once married... Meaning they aren't married anymore.

NO.

Quote
I Corinthians 7

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. If the husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.

The allowance for a second marriage is due to human weakness: "it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion".  It's not because "Well, my spouse died, so we no longer have any relationship between us". 

Quote
The reason why you can't marry while your spouse is alive is because you are still married to them in the eyes of God,hence its adulterous to take another partner as that would be cheating (adultery).

Death has no power over God, so it can't change God's mind about who is or isn't married.   

Quote
A single person can't commit adultery hence it is allowed upon the death of a spouse (sacramental marriage is ended and the person is now single) to marry again.

What other sacraments end with death?  Your Church specifically teaches that ordination survives death, schism, heresy, etc.  It's a little too convenient for sacramental marriage to disappear upon death when other sacraments survive death and worse. 

Quote
Quote
If a woman marries, is widowed, and never marries again, it doesn't mean she is unmarried.   

It means exactly that

Only if you prioritise law over grace and death over life. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:16:54 PM by Mor Ephrem »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2016, 11:28:11 PM »
Therefore, if a divorced woman, who has been separated (from her husband) in soul as well as body, through discord, anger, hatred, and the causes of these— injury, or contumely, or whatsoever cause of complaint— is bound to a personal enemy, not to say a husband, how much more will one who, neither by her own nor her husband's fault, but by an event resulting from the Lord's law, has been— not separated from, but left behind by— her consort, be his, even when dead, to whom, even when dead, she owes (the debt of) concord? From him from whom she has heard no (word of) divorce she does not turn away; with him she is, to whom she has written no (document of) divorce; him whom she was unwilling to have lost, she retains. She has within her the licence of the mind, which represents to a man, in imaginary enjoyment, all things which he has not.

In short, I ask the woman herself, "Tell me, sister, have you sent your husband before you (to his rest) in peace?" What will she answer? (Will she say), "In discord?" In that case she is the more bound to him with whom she has a cause (to plead) at the bar of God. She who is bound (to another) has not departed (from him). But (will she say), "In peace?" In that case, she must necessarily persevere in that (peace) with him whom she will no longer have the power to divorce; not that she would, even if she had been able to divorce him, have been marriageable. Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversaries of his falling asleep. For, unless she does these deeds, she has in the true sense divorced him, so far as in her lies; and indeed the more iniquitously— inasmuch as (she did it) as far as was in her power— because she had no power (to do it); and with the more indignity, inasmuch as it is with more indignity if (her reason for doing it is) because he did not deserve it.

Or else shall we, pray, cease to be after death, according to (the teaching of) some Epicurus, and not according to (that of) Christ? But if we believe the resurrection of the dead, of course we shall be bound to them with whom we are destined to rise, to render an account the one of the other. But if;in that age they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be equal to angels; is not the fact that there will be no restitution of the conjugal relation a reason why we shall not be bound to our departed consorts? Nay, but the more shall we be bound (to them), because we are destined to a better estate— destined (as we are) to rise to a spiritual consortship, to recognise as well our own selves as them who are ours. Else how shall we sing thanks to God to eternity, if there shall remain in us no sense and memory of this debt; if we shall be re-formed in substance, not in consciousness?

Consequently, we who shall be with God shall be together; since we shall all be with the one God— albeit the wages be various, albeit there be many mansions, in the house of the same Father having laboured for the one penny of the self-same hire, that is, of eternal life; in which (eternal life) God will still less separate them whom He has conjoined, than in this lesser life He forbids them to be separated.


Tertullian, On Monogamy X

It seems to me based on this, the Church, at least where Tertullian was, has not seen that marriage "ends" with the departed spouse.

His view on marriage is directly derived from montanism. Montanism had an ethical rigorism and asceticism. These included prohibitions against remarriage following divorce or the death of a spouse.

I grant you that this is possibly the case, but because there is no "till death do us part" in Eastern Christianity, there is a very important significance in what he says, and I think it's very Orthodox and Catholic.  There is no more "death" but a departure.  Therefore, if we say our spouse is dead, we are speaking against the grace of the Resurrection.  Our spouse is sleeping is the more appropriate gesture.  Furthermore, if marriage emulates Christ and the Church, it is an eternal relationship.  If the one I marry makes me love Christ more and grow into Christ, how much more would that eternal relationship be!

So...it's one of those moments where this quotes speaks to a Christian mindset of his time.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2016, 11:42:09 PM »
Quote
Like I said, I can name names.  Whether or not you believe that is of no concern to me.
You can name names? Great, and I'm sure said priest will corroborate your "story". But you're right, all this internet banter means nothing, see, I rely on this little thing called evidence and that little thing my friend, you know and i know, you will be lacking of. so for now, until you do, let's move on.

I don't lack evidence.  I simply don't see a point in prosecuting the case here. 

My point was simple: the Church is filled with sinners at all levels and you can't repeat pious platitudes as if that's all that ever happens in the Church. 

Quote
Quote
Latae sententiae excommunication is a joke. 
Not to us it isn't. but, you know what is? Being allowed to divorce three times.

Of course latae sententiae excommunication is a joke.  It's an excommunication that is automatically incurred.  But who enforces that unless it becomes known? 

Excommunication involves one's relationship with the Church.  It involves people.  It involves accountability.  Latae sententiae excommunication is a fake solution to a real problem. 

"Divorce three times" is a canard.  The prohibition on a fourth marriage exists even when the first three ended with the death of the spouses.  Whether it's three divorces or three dead spouses or some combination of the two, it is not treated as a joke.  It's probably easier to get an annulment in your denomination than to get permission to enter into a second marriage in our Church.   

Quote
Quote
"I have serious doubts that priests would molest children and their bishops would protect them.  That's absolutely, strictly condemned by the Catholic Church, so it's a poor example of a 'story' which one would believe the Church is full of corruption."
If you want my opinion on this, if that's the case, both priest and bishop should be tried , convicted and summarily exectued, that's how strongly I'm opposed to this scandal in the Church. Please don't try and make that kind of comaprison to me, there is none. But the fact is, again, what your saying has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't know how you do that from a confessional booth. It's all "he said, she said" kind of stuff.

Then why does breaking the seal involve a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Vatican if it's so difficult to prove?  This is what I mean by calling it a joke.  "It's all 'he said, she said' kind of stuff", but only the Pope can fix it? 

Again, my point in making that comment was not to talk about pedophile priests.  It was to reveal the naïveté involved in doubting that there are priests who break the seal of confession when you know for a fact that there are priests who rape kids. 

Quote
Quote
Americans know precious little about how traditional cultures operate other than some hackneyed stereotypes they trot out in order to make themselves feel superior
This is your opinion. But, i'm sure tradtional cultures  don't have the grandest view of American culture either. I'm sure your precious, innocent "cultures" have a good laugh themsleves over the "stupid american". And you know what, more times than not, I probably agree with them.

It's not about whose culture is better, Charles, it's about understanding how people operate.  Much of what Westerners routinely deride as "backwards" was, within living memory, common among them.  The inability to appreciate that is especially American.   

Quote
Oh btw, one of those values of my parents/grandparents Catholic culture is we didn't divorce(civilly) when the going got tough and the Church didn't grant them. But yea, I know, i'm going to hear a thousand examples of hell on earth marriages and excuse to rend what God has joined together.  But then again, we did have our share of annullments. Well, not in my family per se.

I don't think anyone here views "divorce" as a solution to a problem.  It's the very public admission of failure.  If there is anything positive about it, it's in a "lesser of two evils" sense. 

Now an annulment is a solution to a problem.  "Why does my marriage suck?  Maybe it was never a marriage to begin with!"  That may be the case in a minority of cases, but the way your Church hands them out, it might as well admit that the other six sacraments are also null and void. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2016, 11:46:51 PM »
There is no more "death" but a departure.  Therefore, if we say our spouse is dead, we are speaking against the grace of the Resurrection. 

The practical denial of the doctrine of the resurrection pops up every so often in post-schism Western Christianity, and is, IMO, among its most disturbing departures from orthodoxy. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.