Author Topic: On marrying a second wife  (Read 29569 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #405 on: June 19, 2017, 08:21:03 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #406 on: June 19, 2017, 08:42:31 PM »
I think the correct response is to always forgive and try to reconcile a relationship but if they want to leave let them leave. Especially if you still love that person in a special way. We must always love that is why I said special way. I just hope people wouldn't abuse it and find the relationship can not be restored because of the reality of the sinners feelings and not a persons paranoia. Also that people don't abuse it and find repentance difficult or find their time on earth to repent may be shortened or die sudden in a bad state which may be a risk for those who had many chances to turn from evil deeds and from commiting a evil deed. Adultery can be dangerous as God said to David you have made opportunity for the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme and the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you
Ideally a person will still love their spouse in a special way if they think the relationship can be restored but God made an exception from this perfection if one can not love that person in a special way though that person really could be restored but he should know he is putting her away non ideally unless God made the exception to allow divorce only if the spouse who sinned does not love you in a special way

It's not that simple. A person who cheats does not only love you but you may still care for that person
I felt something I am teaching is wrong

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #407 on: June 19, 2017, 09:37:09 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #408 on: June 19, 2017, 09:48:07 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #409 on: June 19, 2017, 10:05:30 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #410 on: June 19, 2017, 10:09:15 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #411 on: June 19, 2017, 10:45:13 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
I guess to the judgemental everything looks like a judgement.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #412 on: June 19, 2017, 10:55:12 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
I guess to the judgemental everything looks like a judgement.

Or, you know, you could say, Yeah, I messed up. I made it sound as tho I have categorical insider knowledge and I chose to use that supposed knowledge to cast shade on millions of people. Porter thinks I did it from a knee-jerk inclination to cast shade on fallen Catholics and that there's a tendency to treat such Catholics as enemies of the church. He sounds like he has a judgmental agenda, so he messed up, too. Or, then again, you could just let it go.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #413 on: June 19, 2017, 11:45:52 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
I guess to the judgemental everything looks like a judgement.

Or, you know, you could say, Yeah, I messed up. I made it sound as tho I have categorical insider knowledge and I chose to use that supposed knowledge to cast shade on millions of people. Porter thinks I did it from a knee-jerk inclination to cast shade on fallen Catholics and that there's a tendency to treat such Catholics as enemies of the church. He sounds like he has a judgmental agenda, so he messed up, too. Or, then again, you could just let it go.
Or you could admit you interpreted my post incorrectly. And no I won't let it go.  Bad enough misinformation about my Church is constantly posted here.  No way I'm going to let you post it about me.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #414 on: June 20, 2017, 08:14:44 AM »
To Deacon Lance,

If you don't mind me asking, how do you square your personal desire to see Catholicism adopt the Orthodox practice regarding second marriages with what the Council of Trent said, supposedly infallibly, about divorce and remarriage?

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #415 on: June 20, 2017, 11:13:25 AM »
Well... In the old testament times, jealousy and egotism seems to often have been the true motives for marriage laws. To force two people to love each other where love isnt is one of the cruelest things one can do. It is also cruel to forbid marrying a second time if there is true love there. Christ's Word is true about marriage, but he is always speaking in absolute terms, not in terms of law and legalism. That is why the catholic attitude to marriage has been traditionally disgusting. External demands for marital fidelity can reduce love to mere duty rather than authentic affection.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:17:23 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #416 on: June 20, 2017, 11:14:21 AM »
Oh brother...
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #417 on: June 20, 2017, 11:19:14 AM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious? Law often oppoes love. Jealousy separates man from the divine unity, condemning him to a frozen death.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:23:21 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #418 on: June 20, 2017, 11:26:23 AM »
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #419 on: June 20, 2017, 11:29:35 AM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #420 on: June 20, 2017, 11:45:59 AM »
Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is against the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #421 on: June 20, 2017, 12:19:36 PM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is against the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #422 on: June 20, 2017, 12:26:53 PM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
Let me Change it to this :  obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #423 on: June 20, 2017, 12:45:14 PM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
Let me Change it to this :  obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

What is the gospel about?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #424 on: June 20, 2017, 12:51:17 PM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
Let me Change it to this :  obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

What is the gospel about?
Grace, love, freedom, forgiveness, mercy, justice. And not in pathetic legal terms. Because that denies freedom and loves oppression of thought etc.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:51:51 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #425 on: June 20, 2017, 01:24:28 PM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
Let me Change it to this :  obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

What is the gospel about?
Grace, love, freedom, forgiveness, mercy, justice. And not in pathetic legal terms. Because that denies freedom and loves oppression of thought etc.

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #426 on: June 20, 2017, 02:02:27 PM »
Beebert, friend, you may be missing a detail -- the Law was liberal compared to the Gospel on this point.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #427 on: June 20, 2017, 06:03:52 PM »
Beebert, friend, you may be missing a detail -- the Law was liberal compared to the Gospel on this point.
Definately not. The law doesnt encourage freedom. The gospel is all about freedom. And that is Why the demands of the gospel are so much higher. Because Most men prefer slavery to freedom for some strange reason. Because freedom means responsibility and the demand to freely choose between Good and evil. But man has a tendency to prefer death to that freedom
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #428 on: June 20, 2017, 06:06:58 PM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
Let me Change it to this :  obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

What is the gospel about?
Grace, love, freedom, forgiveness, mercy, justice. And not in pathetic legal terms. Because that denies freedom and loves oppression of thought etc.

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
are you saying that Jesus here means that the highest virtue is oppression of thought? What are Gud commandments? To love God and neighbour. How can you possibly do that under compulsion? No. It demands freedom.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #429 on: June 20, 2017, 06:16:12 PM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #430 on: June 20, 2017, 06:21:56 PM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #431 on: June 20, 2017, 06:34:15 PM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word

You might want to get that looked at.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #432 on: June 20, 2017, 06:40:10 PM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word

You might want to get that looked at.
A command to love is a command to be free.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #433 on: June 20, 2017, 06:49:59 PM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word

You might want to get that looked at.
A command to love is a command to be free.

Quote from: Matt. ch. 5
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you: that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill'; and, 'Whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' But I say unto you: that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, 'Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way: first be reconciled to thy brother and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly whiles thou art in the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison. -- Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' But I say unto you: that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #434 on: June 20, 2017, 07:23:48 PM »
Depends if people want to pay you for your services.
Learn meditation.

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #435 on: June 21, 2017, 01:22:39 AM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word

You might want to get that looked at.
A command to love is a command to be free.

Quote from: Matt. ch. 5
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you: that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill'; and, 'Whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' But I say unto you: that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, 'Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way: first be reconciled to thy brother and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly whiles thou art in the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison. -- Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' But I say unto you: that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
oh Yes! You are right! He commands me to be a spiritually chained slave. Is that what you think those passages tell us?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #436 on: June 21, 2017, 10:03:40 AM »
The New Testament frees us from many of the minute strictures of the law, but in the commandments of love it is far more rigorous. The liberty of the law is not license.
Quote
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #437 on: June 21, 2017, 11:14:08 AM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word

You might want to get that looked at.
A command to love is a command to be free.

Quote from: Matt. ch. 5
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you: that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill'; and, 'Whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' But I say unto you: that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, 'Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way: first be reconciled to thy brother and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly whiles thou art in the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison. -- Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' But I say unto you: that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
oh Yes! You are right! He commands me to be a spiritually chained slave. Is that what you think those passages tell us?

Quote from: Luk. 17:10
So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, "We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #438 on: June 21, 2017, 11:26:32 AM »
The New Testament frees us from many of the minute strictures of the law, but in the commandments of love it is far more rigorous. The liberty of the law is not license.
Of course. That is not what I am saying. Jesus demands freedom, to freely love and serve others. This recquires responsibiliy. A Free man knows he is responsible. Freedom does not mean "Do whatever you want "
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #439 on: June 21, 2017, 11:27:13 AM »
What is "commandment" if not "a pathetic legal term"?
bidding, command, commandment, demand, dictate, direction, expressed desire, injunction, instruction, mandate, order, precept, prompting, request, solicitation, wish, word

You might want to get that looked at.
A command to love is a command to be free.

Quote from: Matt. ch. 5
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you: that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill'; and, 'Whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.' But I say unto you: that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, 'Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way: first be reconciled to thy brother and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly whiles thou art in the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison. -- Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' But I say unto you: that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
oh Yes! You are right! He commands me to be a spiritually chained slave. Is that what you think those passages tell us?

Quote from: Luk. 17:10
So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, "We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done."
Of Course. So? He still wants us Free.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #440 on: June 21, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »
To Deacon Lance,

If you don't mind me asking, how do you square your personal desire to see Catholicism adopt the Orthodox practice regarding second marriages with what the Council of Trent said, supposedly infallibly, about divorce and remarriage?
Because Trent intentionally left room for it.

http://ocl.org/council-trent-condemn-eastern-marriage-practices/
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Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #441 on: June 21, 2017, 06:41:39 PM »
The article states:

"After the discussion, 97 Council Fathers expressed themselves in favour of the Venetians’ request and approved it, while 80 were against the Eastern practice, but divided in terms of their reasons. “This did not mean that the majority of the Council Fathers wanted to call into question the indissolubility of marriage,” La Civiltà Cattolica writes. “The intention was simply to discuss how this condemnation was expressed. This does not affect canon five which opposes divorce.”"

So the Eastern practice is still condemned, it was just a matter of how the condemnation would be expressed.  Also the Council Fathers decision does not affect Canon 5 which states:

"If any one saith, that on account of heresy, or irksome cohabitation, or the affected absence of one of the parties, the bond of matrimony may be dissolved; let him be anathema."

So, if you are going to allow divorce and remarriage in Catholicism, or at least Eastern rite Catholicism, based on this article regarding one exception made 500 years ago, it could only be done in the case of adultery and while I'm no canon lawyer, Canon 7 seems pretty airtight to me:

"If any one saith, that the Church has erred, in that she hath taught, and doth teach, in accordance with the evangelical and apostolical doctrine, that the bond of matrimony cannot be dissolved on account of the adultery of one of the married parties; and that both, or even the innocent one who gave not occasion to the adultery, cannot contract another marriage, during the life-time of the other; and, that he is guilty of adultery, who, having put away the adulteress, shall take another wife, as also she, who, having put away the adulterer, shall take another husband; let him be anathema."






Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #442 on: June 21, 2017, 10:17:39 PM »
The point is Trent specifically left a loop whole in allowing for the Eastern practice.  Beyond that the Latin Church is going to have to come to terms with the fact for a thousand years the East and West did things differently, not just in this area but others as well, and did not condemn the others practice.  The Ecumenical value of the later Western Councils is questionable because only the Western view was given real consideration.  So unlike some Latins, I see much of the current discipline as reformable in the Eastern direction.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #443 on: June 24, 2017, 12:21:49 AM »
Oh brother...
Isnt What I said quite obvious?

No.
"Self-denial"'must be inspired by love rather than through authoritarian compulsion. I would say that is one of the essential differences between the law and the gospel.

This is rather meaningless. 

Restraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

So is this.
Let me Change it to this :  obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside is againstrestraint in obedience to a moral code imposed from the outside was against the spirit of life: the spirit of life. The gospel is not about moral codes.

What is the gospel about?
Grace, love, freedom, forgiveness, mercy, justice. And not in pathetic legal terms. Because that denies freedom and loves oppression of thought etc.
You left out "rubberstamping": your posts imply it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #444 on: June 24, 2017, 12:37:43 AM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
I guess to the judgemental everything looks like a judgement.

Or, you know, you could say, Yeah, I messed up. I made it sound as tho I have categorical insider knowledge and I chose to use that supposed knowledge to cast shade on millions of people. Porter thinks I did it from a knee-jerk inclination to cast shade on fallen Catholics and that there's a tendency to treat such Catholics as enemies of the church. He sounds like he has a judgmental agenda, so he messed up, too. Or, then again, you could just let it go.
I've seen Deacon Lance here and elsewhere criticize the Curia, not the couples, on this situation. So no, he did not cast shade on millions in general, and in particular he has focused light on those who would.

He stated it was from his personal experience/knowledge. If he has such knowledge of several cases, and all but 2 ended up as he stated, what is he to say?

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #445 on: June 24, 2017, 12:44:33 AM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
I guess to the judgemental everything looks like a judgement.

Or, you know, you could say, Yeah, I messed up. I made it sound as tho I have categorical insider knowledge and I chose to use that supposed knowledge to cast shade on millions of people. Porter thinks I did it from a knee-jerk inclination to cast shade on fallen Catholics and that there's a tendency to treat such Catholics as enemies of the church. He sounds like he has a judgmental agenda, so he messed up, too. Or, then again, you could just let it go.
I've seen Deacon Lance here and elsewhere criticize the Curia, not the couples, on this situation. So no, he did not cast shade on millions in general, and in particular he has focused light on those who would.

He stated it was from his personal experience/knowledge. If he has such knowledge of several cases, and all but 2 ended up as he stated, what is he to say?

I appreciate you standing up for him against my unnecessary onslaught, but I also hope you take a closer look at the thread before I replied. Here we have the deacon saying the annulment process is reasonable and pious and divorce folks won't submit to pastoral care. So please ignore my interruption and consider the exchange between Deacon and Mor before it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #446 on: June 24, 2017, 02:51:51 AM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of. 

Interesting.  Are there any statistics on how often that happens?
No, but from my own knowledge it is not rare. And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest.

From an anecdote (well, not even that) to a sweeping imputation of motive, I see.
Allow me to rephrase, from anullment cases I have personal knowledge of (friends, family, parishioners) several had conditions imposed.  Of those only two bothered to marry in the Church again.  It is being implied in this forum that if one applies for an anullment one gets it.  This is simply not the case.  I am also unsure what motive you believe I am imputing.  Catholics divorce at the same rate as the general population, 50%.  Most don't seek an annulment and most don't remarry in the Church.  Those are facts.

"And it is often at this point people say forget it and get married by a magistrate or in a Protestant Church or by a rent-a-priest." You're close to casting aspersions on divorced and remarried Catholics as a group. "They marry outside the church because they have the problem," in so many words. As I said earlier, the Catholic faithful seem to make a pastime of passing judgment on Catholics whom they consider fallen. The Pope can do no wrong, obviously. Of course, when one of the faithful gets caught in the gears, then it quickly becomes time to tsk tsk at him.
Now who is imputing motives?  I simply stated facts and offered no judgement.  I am in fact in favor of allowing divorced and remarried Catholic to commune and adopting a system like the Orthodox use to regularize their second marriages.

You offered no facts, only a generalization from anecdotes you didn't actually share, and the burden of your post was judgment, i.e., taking your generalization and assigning it in a sweeping fashion. Gosh, Deacon, it's as tho you don't see your own post has been recorded here. Obviously what you said wasn't worth all this, but you're the one who keeps following up with excuses. I'm glad you would support some kind of regularization of second marriages.
I guess to the judgemental everything looks like a judgement.

Or, you know, you could say, Yeah, I messed up. I made it sound as tho I have categorical insider knowledge and I chose to use that supposed knowledge to cast shade on millions of people. Porter thinks I did it from a knee-jerk inclination to cast shade on fallen Catholics and that there's a tendency to treat such Catholics as enemies of the church. He sounds like he has a judgmental agenda, so he messed up, too. Or, then again, you could just let it go.
I've seen Deacon Lance here and elsewhere criticize the Curia, not the couples, on this situation. So no, he did not cast shade on millions in general, and in particular he has focused light on those who would.

He stated it was from his personal experience/knowledge. If he has such knowledge of several cases, and all but 2 ended up as he stated, what is he to say?

I appreciate you standing up for him against my unnecessary onslaught, but I also hope you take a closer look at the thread before I replied. Here we have the deacon saying the annulment process is reasonable and pious and divorce folks won't submit to pastoral care. So please ignore my interruption and consider the exchange between Deacon and Mor before it.
The annulment process can be reasonable, it can be unreasonable.  Some people submit to pastoral care, others do not.  Some never even bother with an annulment and simply divorce and remarry.  I have consistently argued for economy for those in second marriages, especially those abandoned by their first spouses, here and elsewhere.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #447 on: June 25, 2017, 04:46:19 AM »
Job 31:9-12
“If my heart has been enticed by a woman,
Or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
Then let my wife grind for another,
And let others bow down over her.
For that would be wickedness;
Yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment.
For that would be a fire that consumes to destruction,
And would root out all my increase.

This proves that you have to accept the consequences of your actions but that does not mean it is better not to forgive if their sin was not because they really loved someone else but they were trapped if that is possible. If they can't get over it and did not know this would be the consequence and they really feel you are the best not just shame before children it is good to accept them. In my church also the adulterer can not get married again because Jesus said he who married a woman who is divorced commits adultery. I agree with this conclusion unless proven wrong. I guess that is why in our church marriage is not the solution to prevent sin or that means a divorced woman can not repent. Did Paul mean when he said because of sexual immorality let each have his own wife that you should get married to prevent fornication. God made single people tempted more so they can get married but to a divorced woman God's grace will remove some temptations I think. Therefore because they can not get married again should we be more considerate to forgive ? Well not if they don't love you it is their punishment and as I learn from these verses from Job if a person is still wounded to be with you even if they are sorry it is okay to divorce though maybe not best. But why do the Eastern Orthodox permit the adulterer to remarry ? Do they atleast admit this new marriage is further adultery ? I could accept this position perhaps if some sins are not punished without repentance but I think even the Eastern Orthodox must admit for them to remarry may put their soul at risk because Jesus said for them not to remarry to help their repentance though it may be possible to repent being remarried though maybe harder. I apologise if I disturbed anyone married with confusion but that's what happens when you call men your teacher and not God but I don't think I am responsible and I tried to teach right

But who is a real adulterous woman ? Proverbs says this is the way of a adulterous woman she says I have done no evil

« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 04:51:22 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #448 on: June 25, 2017, 05:08:07 AM »
Did Paul mean when he said because of sexual immorality let each have his own wife that you should get married to prevent fornication.

I didn't finish this because I was going to ask if he said it to prevent fornication or all sexual immorality which is the actual term he used
But I think he meant to help control all relevant sins

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #449 on: June 25, 2017, 01:00:19 PM »
Did Paul mean when he said because of sexual immorality let each have his own wife that you should get married to prevent fornication.

I didn't finish this because I was going to ask if he said it to prevent fornication or all sexual immorality which is the actual term he used
But I think he meant to help control all relevant sins

He is talking about what would happen if a society were to have no institution of marriage,  that couples would mingle indiscriminately.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy