Author Topic: On marrying a second wife  (Read 38876 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #270 on: June 15, 2017, 02:27:08 PM »
It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless.

It's legal sophistry. And an insult to God and the sacrament.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #271 on: June 15, 2017, 02:29:11 PM »
It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless.

It's legal sophistry. And an insult to God and the sacrament.
The earth just shook at my agreement with Iconodule.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #272 on: June 15, 2017, 02:32:31 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
You're right-the recipe for Corban is quite straight-forward. The complications come in the contortions the gymnastics of jesuitry require.

But calling a millionth marriage a "first" marriage is easy once you have established the pattern with retro-dating a second marriage.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #273 on: June 15, 2017, 02:43:28 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #274 on: June 15, 2017, 02:57:11 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
You're right-the recipe for Corban is quite straight-forward. The complications come in the contortions the gymnastics of jesuitry require.

But calling a millionth marriage a "first" marriage is easy once you have established the pattern with retro-dating a second marriage.
Don't shift goalposts. It's not about millionth marriages (what an exaggeration), but only on first vs. second.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #275 on: June 15, 2017, 03:00:09 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #276 on: June 15, 2017, 03:14:53 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
You're right-the recipe for Corban is quite straight-forward. The complications come in the contortions the gymnastics of jesuitry require.

But calling a millionth marriage a "first" marriage is easy once you have established the pattern with retro-dating a second marriage.
Don't shift goalposts. It's not about millionth marriages (what an exaggeration), but only on first vs. second.

Do you mean to say that a Catholic can only be granted one annulment ever? 

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #277 on: June 15, 2017, 03:15:18 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.

Which statement? 

Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #278 on: June 15, 2017, 03:21:05 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.

You mean the statement that allows for divorce in cases of fornication?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #279 on: June 15, 2017, 03:30:27 PM »
The issue of divorce and remarriage was really tough for me going from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.  It was actually the last hurdle I had to overcome.  And I still believe that the Catholic position on paper is the correct one.  However, after decades of abuse in the annulment process, the recent motu propio by Pope Francis which expanded the reasons for granting an annulment culminating in "etc." - a document which canon lawyers labeled "Catholic divorce," and the real world effects of Amoris Laetitia - look at what happened this past Sunday in Argentina - what's the point of continuing the discussion?  At least Orthodoxy is honest about it and sets a limit at three - and when I was coming into the Church, my priest told me the third one is almost impossible to get approved.  Better that then being smug and hypocritical condemning Orthodox practice while doing the exact same thing in substance and conceivably without any numerical limits with regard to annulments or having to explain how you are now letting "public adulterers" receive communion while maintaining that nothing has changed regarding your doctrine on marriage...

Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #280 on: June 15, 2017, 03:53:27 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

You've probably read the first one of these already, but I would encourage you to read both:

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: A Forgotten History: https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: An Addendum: https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2017/05/09/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-an-addendum/

I've posted passages from these elsewhere, but here they are all conveniently gathered and collated.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #281 on: June 15, 2017, 05:00:56 PM »
It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless.

It's legal sophistry. And an insult to God and the sacrament.
The earth just shook at my agreement with Iconodule.

That's because of Chuck Norris's gasp.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #282 on: June 15, 2017, 05:16:56 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

You've probably read the first one of these already, but I would encourage you to read both:

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: A Forgotten History: whttps://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: An Addendum: https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2017/05/09/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-an-addendum/

I've posted passages from these elsewhere, but here they are all conveniently gathered and collated.
Thanks for the links, looks pretty interesting at first glance, but you have compiled so much material I cannot say anything intelligent about it so fast  :D
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #283 on: June 15, 2017, 05:19:16 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
You're right-the recipe for Corban is quite straight-forward. The complications come in the contortions the gymnastics of jesuitry require.

But calling a millionth marriage a "first" marriage is easy once you have established the pattern with retro-dating a second marriage.
Don't shift goalposts. It's not about millionth marriages (what an exaggeration), but only on first vs. second.

Do you mean to say that a Catholic can only be granted one annulment ever?

No. I am not aware of any limits (theoretically).
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #284 on: June 15, 2017, 05:23:28 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.

You mean the statement that allows for divorce in cases of fornication?

Of course I was referring to Mark 10:2 ff. Always the same quote from scripture when it comes to divorce vs indissolubility.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:27:03 PM by Lepanto »
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #285 on: June 15, 2017, 05:50:20 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
You're right-the recipe for Corban is quite straight-forward. The complications come in the contortions the gymnastics of jesuitry require.

But calling a millionth marriage a "first" marriage is easy once you have established the pattern with retro-dating a second marriage.
Don't shift goalposts. It's not about millionth marriages (what an exaggeration), but only on first vs. second.

Do you mean to say that a Catholic can only be granted one annulment ever?

No. I am not aware of any limits (theoretically).

Neither am I. 

So, theoretically, it is possible for an individual to marry and later have his marriage declared null, marry again and have that new union declared null, marry again and have that new union also declared null, and marry again, stay married, and have it be his "first" marriage, even though she is the fourth woman he is cohabiting with "in more uxorio". 

Is it really possible that, after the first annulment, the Church would be so careless as to not make sure that a putative second marriage new first marriage would be entered into validly?  The annulment proceedings identify a reason(s) why the previous marriage(s) was invalid from the start: shouldn't that be the starting point for the new couple, so that they can be sure to enter into a sacramentally valid marriage? 

Yet, there's no limit on annulments. 

So while "millionth" marriage may very well be hyperbole, the truth is not far off. 

I get why RCs prefer the concept of annulment to divorce, but it's just an ecclesiastical divorce unless your Church also makes an effort to limit annulments to just a single declaration per individual.  S/he may have been impeded from contracting a valid marriage the first time around, but how can you be impeded a second time?  Shouldn't you know what you're getting into by then? 

It's sophistry and legal fiction. 

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #286 on: June 15, 2017, 07:20:23 PM »
While Canon Law does not specifically limit the number of annulments a person can be granted, if during the annulment process it becomes clear that one or both of the spouses have mental health or other issues that led to the annulment a monitum will be issued forbidding them another marriage until they get it taken care of.  Also, an annulment is not a given.  Lots of them are turned down.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #287 on: June 16, 2017, 12:59:51 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
You're right-the recipe for Corban is quite straight-forward. The complications come in the contortions the gymnastics of jesuitry require.

But calling a millionth marriage a "first" marriage is easy once you have established the pattern with retro-dating a second marriage.
Don't shift goalposts.

They remained firmly in place.
It's not about millionth marriages (what an exaggeration)
Evidently not:
Do you mean to say that a Catholic can only be granted one annulment ever?

No. I am not aware of any limits (theoretically).

but only on first vs. second.
In the Corban factory, there is no first vs. second. Or vs. millionth.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 01:00:17 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #288 on: June 16, 2017, 01:04:40 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.
actually you don't have the statement contrary from HIM to what the one HE chose as HIS vessel really intended to say.

Just a string of self appointed vicars with no mandate from HIM to render a "shameful sentence" (to quote their chosen Defender of the Faith).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #289 on: June 16, 2017, 01:06:08 PM »
The issue of divorce and remarriage was really tough for me going from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.  It was actually the last hurdle I had to overcome.  And I still believe that the Catholic position on paper is the correct one.  However, after decades of abuse in the annulment process, the recent motu propio by Pope Francis which expanded the reasons for granting an annulment culminating in "etc." - a document which canon lawyers labeled "Catholic divorce," and the real world effects of Amoris Laetitia - look at what happened this past Sunday in Argentina - what's the point of continuing the discussion?  At least Orthodoxy is honest about it and sets a limit at three - and when I was coming into the Church, my priest told me the third one is almost impossible to get approved.  Better that then being smug and hypocritical condemning Orthodox practice while doing the exact same thing in substance and conceivably without any numerical limits with regard to annulments or having to explain how you are now letting "public adulterers" receive communion while maintaining that nothing has changed regarding your doctrine on marriage...
What happened in Argentina?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #290 on: June 16, 2017, 01:07:46 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.

You mean the statement that allows for divorce in cases of fornication?

Of course I was referring to Mark 10:2 ff. Always the same quote from scripture when it comes to divorce vs indissolubility.
You are aware that St. Matthew clearly outranks St. Mark, no?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #291 on: June 16, 2017, 01:16:00 PM »
Specialis derogat generali ("the specific repeals the general").
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Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #292 on: June 16, 2017, 01:21:24 PM »
"What happened in Argentina?"

I posted this on the Amoris thread:

Argentinian Bishop Organizes Special Mass to Give Communion to Adulterous Couples, Cites Pope Francis

"This past Sunday at the Parish Church of San Roque, Reconquista, Santa Fe (Argentina), the local bishop, Msgr. Macín, appointed by Pope Francis in 2013, carried out a monumental and sacrilegious scandal that clearly shows what's behind Amoris laetitia.

In this church he organized a solemn Mass, in which he publicly announced that according to the norms sent in a letter more than 6 months ago by Pope Francis, and within the framework of the integration of Christians who are "marginalized" because of their irregular situation of being divorced and remarried or in an irregular situation (the divorced in a new union), after having completed a period of 6 months of meetings on Saturdays called the "path of discernment", it was determined in accordance with what was previously stated (by order of the Pope) TO INCLUDE THEM IN FULL AND SACRAMENTAL COMMUNION, which would happen in the ceremony. At no point was mention made that those people had taken some vow of chastity or of living "as brothers [and sisters]."

In the same way, communion was given to all those mentioned (some 30 couples) accompanied by their relatives who took photos in a festive atmosphere. At no point was reference ever made to the Scriptures which condemn adultery, and again and again the excerpts of Amoris laetitia are mentioned where it is said that the divorced and remarried ought to be included in full communion."

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/06/breaking-argentina-bishop-organizes.html


Also, in Sicily:

Sicilian Bishops' AL Guidelines Authorize Communion for Adulterous Couples

The guidelines state: "According to the assessment of the confessor and taking into account the good of the penitent, it is possible to absolve and admit [the divorced and civilly remarried] to the Eucharist, even though the confessor knows that it is, for the Church, an objective disorder."

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/06/sicilian-bishops-al-guidelines.html


The whole annulment is better than divorce debate now just seems academic at best, a really sad joke at worst...

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #293 on: June 16, 2017, 01:44:27 PM »
I get why RCs prefer the concept of annulment to divorce, but it's just an ecclesiastical divorce unless your Church also makes an effort to limit annulments to just a single declaration per individual.  S/he may have been impeded from contracting a valid marriage the first time around, but how can you be impeded a second time?  Shouldn't you know what you're getting into by then? 
And this is actually a good line of thought, imho. Marriage preparation would be so very important.
We have to ask ourselves why we allow so many young couples to marry without even the most basic information about the nature of the sacrament. It could potentially avoid so much worries, pain and loss of credibility with people like you if couples were not allowed to treat the church as a service provider for their special day only. It's not their fault, but in the end, they pay the bill.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 01:44:52 PM by Lepanto »
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #294 on: June 16, 2017, 01:50:05 PM »
We have already by St. Paul two kinds of allowances for second marriages -- but I guess St. Peter's ostensible inheritors outrank St. Paul?

Let me expand on this a bit. The teaching that the wedded state is perfectly inviolable is a bit of a fiction.

If we look even just at Scripture, a pattern emerges.
  • Responding to a riddle from the Pharisees, our Lord taught that divorce is akin to adultery.
  • However, he taught at the same time that divorce is allowed in cases of sexual transgression.
  • When his followers responded with despair, Christ said, "This teaching not all are able to accommodate, except only those to whom it is granted to do so" (Mat 19:11).
  • St. Paul, when applied to by the Corinthians, clarified that a woman who loses a husband to death is "at liberty to be married to whomever she wishes" (I Cor 7:39).
  • The Apostle additionally taught that if someone's unbelieving spouse wishes to divorce, then the Christian is freed. "A brother or a sister is not in bondage, in such cases" (I Cor 7:15).
The pattern is one of increasing economia, or what Rome might call casuistry, but which is better understood as the working-out of a divine principle into the actual daily lives of the Church. When we comprehend the pattern of management modeled by our Lord and the Apostle above, then the further steps that the Cappadocian Fathers took should not seem like a break from Scripture at all.


Let's assume for the moment that St. Paul really intended to say such a thing. We have the statement to the contrary from HIM who clearly outranks St. Paul.

Except in the case that it's a HER.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #295 on: June 16, 2017, 01:59:52 PM »
At no point was mention made that those people had taken some vow of chastity or of living "as brothers [and sisters]."
Such a vow would be asking for trouble.
Sicilian Bishops' AL Guidelines Authorize Communion for Adulterous Couples

The guidelines state: "According to the assessment of the confessor and taking into account the good of the penitent, it is possible to absolve and admit [the divorced and civilly remarried] to the Eucharist, even though the confessor knows that it is, for the Church, an objective disorder."

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/06/sicilian-bishops-al-guidelines.html


The whole annulment is better than divorce debate now just seems academic at best, a really sad joke at worst...
At least the Sicilians are on the right track. Now if they just do it before the remarriage.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:01:58 PM by ialmisry »
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #296 on: June 16, 2017, 02:13:50 PM »
I'm not sure they're on the right track.  I think what gets lost oftentimes is that when people refer to the couples being remarried civilly it means they are having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage.  How is the growing post-Amoris Laetitia practice of admitting to communion people who are fornicating on a regular basis better than the Orthodox practice of a second penitential marriage rite?  The latter seems the far lesser evil to me...

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #297 on: June 16, 2017, 02:16:55 PM »
I'm not sure they're on the right track.  I think what gets lost oftentimes is that when people refer to the couples being remarried civilly it means they are having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage.  How is the growing post-Amoris Laetitia practice of admitting to communion people who are fornicating on a regular basis better than the Orthodox practice of a second penitential marriage rite?  The latter seems the far lesser evil to me...

It means they're married outside the Roman church because the church gives them no other option.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #298 on: June 16, 2017, 02:25:29 PM »
How are you defining marriage?  A civil marriage is completely meaningless in Catholicism and I assume as well in Orthodoxy though please feel free to correct me on that.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #299 on: June 16, 2017, 02:31:50 PM »
I'm not sure they're on the right track.  I think what gets lost oftentimes is that when people refer to the couples being remarried civilly it means they are having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage.  How is the growing post-Amoris Laetitia practice of admitting to communion people who are fornicating on a regular basis better than the Orthodox practice of a second penitential marriage rite?  The latter seems the far lesser evil to me...
exactly my point: the church should be getting to them before the second marriage, to see if it can be approved ahead.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #300 on: June 16, 2017, 02:32:18 PM »
How are you defining marriage?  A civil marriage is completely meaningless in Catholicism and I assume as well in Orthodoxy though please feel free to correct me on that.

Marriage is never meaningless, unless it's undertaken in bad faith. But you're avoiding the issue, which is that these people have little choice and the very institution responsible for that is the one refusing to commune them. It's a "Stop hitting yourself!" level of pastoral care.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:33:15 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #301 on: June 16, 2017, 02:33:34 PM »
How are you defining marriage?  A civil marriage is completely meaningless in Catholicism and I assume as well in Orthodoxy though please feel free to correct me on that.
I've seen mixed opinion on whether a civil marriage counts to the Vatican. It is not completely meaningless in Orthodoxy, especially, for instance, entered into before embracing Orthodoxy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #302 on: June 16, 2017, 02:39:58 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

You've probably read the first one of these already, but I would encourage you to read both:

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: A Forgotten History: https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: An Addendum: https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2017/05/09/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-an-addendum/

I've posted passages from these elsewhere, but here they are all conveniently gathered and collated.


I have printed out the contents of the first link to your blog.
For starters:
About the Council of Arles (I did not check whether the quote is correct):
You build up your argumentation around the sentence
“[…]placuit ut, quantum possit, consilium eius detur ne alias uxores, viventibus etiam uxoribus suis licet adulteris, accipiant.”
and you claim that the proper translation would be :
“it has been decided, as long as he is able, even if their adulterous wife is living, he is to be given counsel not to marry another woman.”
I say this is a plain wrong translation.
The Catholic blog got it better with so far as may be.  I would simply translate with as far as possible (you even keep a reference to the verb posse this way).
It is just grammar:  The whole sentence is addressing men in the plural (depraehendunt, eis, accipiant) . Interpreting “possit” as third person masculine singular does not make any sense in this context, there is no mention of a single man. It is a third person singular neutrum, just like  “placuit”
Also, other trusted sources support this: “quantum possit” means “as fast as possible” or “as far as possible” . For example cf. Cicero, “De finibus bonorum et malorum”, 1.30.

Your whole argumentation for Arles crumbles there. I will look at the rest, if I find the time.

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Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #303 on: June 16, 2017, 02:42:39 PM »
In all my years of being Catholic, including my years in the seminary, I never came across anyone who thought a civil marriage "counted to the Vatican."  From a sacramental point of view it is meaningless.  Pre-Amoris Laetitia, the expectation was that if you were divorced and civilly remarried and you want to go to communion you had better be living as brother and sister.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, so again I'm open to being educated here.  If I am in a civil "marriage" and having regular sexual relations with my civil spouse, am I free to approach the chalice on Sunday?  I would have thought the answer would have been "no."

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #304 on: June 16, 2017, 02:44:34 PM »
In all my years of being Catholic, including my years in the seminary, I never came across anyone who thought a civil marriage "counted to the Vatican."  From a sacramental point of view it is meaningless.  Pre-Amoris Laetitia, the expectation was that if you were divorced and civilly remarried and you want to go to communion you had better be living as brother and sister.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, so again I'm open to being educated here.  If I am in a civil "marriage" and having regular sexual relations with my civil spouse, am I free to approach the chalice on Sunday?  I would have thought the answer would have been "no."
Absolutely right, no doubt. You should definitely not approach.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #305 on: June 16, 2017, 02:46:13 PM »
In all my years of being Catholic, including my years in the seminary, I never came across anyone who thought a civil marriage "counted to the Vatican."  From a sacramental point of view it is meaningless.  Pre-Amoris Laetitia, the expectation was that if you were divorced and civilly remarried and you want to go to communion you had better be living as brother and sister.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, so again I'm open to being educated here.  If I am in a civil "marriage" and having regular sexual relations with my civil spouse, am I free to approach the chalice on Sunday?  I would have thought the answer would have been "no."

Have you been baptized or chrismated in the interim? This is the question in a truly orthodox church, I believe.

To say that all marriages are sheer whoredom unless your particular religious authority was involved doesn't sound reasonable or pious to me. Or do you think God lacks the ability to hear the vows of non-Catholics?

That said, what you say about Catholics thinking this way matches my experience with my Catholic and ex-Catholic friends. There was always the explanation that someone can marry however often she wishes outside the Roman church and be unaccountable for it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 02:47:11 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #306 on: June 16, 2017, 02:48:14 PM »
In all my years of being Catholic, including my years in the seminary, I never came across anyone who thought a civil marriage "counted to the Vatican."  From a sacramental point of view it is meaningless.  Pre-Amoris Laetitia, the expectation was that if you were divorced and civilly remarried and you want to go to communion you had better be living as brother and sister.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, so again I'm open to being educated here.  If I am in a civil "marriage" and having regular sexual relations with my civil spouse, am I free to approach the chalice on Sunday?  I would have thought the answer would have been "no."
Absolutely right, no doubt. You should definitely not approach.

So, if someone converts to Catholicism after getting a civil marriage, does he need to get a church wedding?
Quote
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #307 on: June 16, 2017, 02:52:07 PM »
In all my years of being Catholic, including my years in the seminary, I never came across anyone who thought a civil marriage "counted to the Vatican."  From a sacramental point of view it is meaningless.  Pre-Amoris Laetitia, the expectation was that if you were divorced and civilly remarried and you want to go to communion you had better be living as brother and sister.  I'm a convert to Orthodoxy, so again I'm open to being educated here.  If I am in a civil "marriage" and having regular sexual relations with my civil spouse, am I free to approach the chalice on Sunday?  I would have thought the answer would have been "no."
Absolutely right, no doubt. You should definitely not approach.

So, if someone converts to Catholicism after getting a civil marriage, does he need to get a church wedding?

The (simplifying) answer (if both were non-Catholics and free to marry) is: No. See for example
https://www.catholic.com/qa/do-these-converts-need-to-have-their-marriage-convalidated
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #308 on: June 16, 2017, 02:56:01 PM »
Then how can you say a civil marriage is meaningless?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #309 on: June 16, 2017, 02:59:48 PM »
Then how can you say a civil marriage is meaningless?

Catholics hating other Catholics as sinners seems to be an important denominational pastime.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #310 on: June 16, 2017, 03:00:36 PM »
Then how can you say a civil marriage is meaningless?
It is meaningless for Catholics, not so for people outside the church. Read the link.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #311 on: June 16, 2017, 03:03:25 PM »
Then how can you say a civil marriage is meaningless?
It is meaningless for Catholics, not so for people outside the church. Read the link.

I did. It talks, among other things, about divorced and remarried Protestants having to get their failed marriages annulled as a precondition to their new marriage being accepted upon their conversion (but then they don't need to get the new marriage convalidated). So this suggests that non-Catholic marriage can be sacramentally valid.

You said, from a sacramental point of view, sacramental marriage is meaningless for Catholics. What makes it not meaningless for non-Catholics, so that it remains valid upon their conversion?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 03:03:58 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #312 on: June 16, 2017, 03:06:02 PM »
Hold on.  What that link says is that these people were married, divorced, had their marriage annulled and then were remarried within a Protestant denomination.  Catholicism recognizes the validity of Protestant marriages and since their prior marriage was annulled their second marriage is valid from a Catholic perspective.  That's not a civil marriage...

Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #313 on: June 16, 2017, 03:09:24 PM »
Yeah, I noticed that too. So, does that mean that Protestant weddings have some sort of sacramental validity that civil marriages don't?
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #314 on: June 16, 2017, 03:15:22 PM »
I guess I mixed things up. The link was talking about protestant marriages and not  civil ones. I should have read this more carefully. Sorry for the mistake. I guess I better go to sleep now 😊 too long day
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 03:17:01 PM by Lepanto »
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