Author Topic: On marrying a second wife  (Read 33101 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #225 on: September 14, 2016, 06:12:27 AM »
Not really, I'm Trinitarian.

A Filioquist.
You're damn skippy. That is the faith of Leo, Hillary, Augustine, Leo III, Agatho, Fulgentius, Ambrose and the western church proper. Amen
Skippy? Is that a South Africanism for correct (in which case, it should be "blessed," not "damned").
Actually it's just and English phrase meaning agreement or approval.

St. Augustine was smart enough to admit he didn't understand, but trusted the Greek Fathers of the East.
He reasoned it out without the need of Greek ask he knew what "proceed" meant theologically. Never mind that he was following th constant teaching of the Latin fathers.

As for the rest of your assertions, I just repeat what Leo III said when he put the Creed without the mutilation of the filioque on the doors of St. Peter's and the crypt of St. Paul outside the Walls- "Haec Leo posui amore et cautela orthodoxae fidei "I, Leo,  put these here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith"

And I will repeat what the same Leo III said concerning the Procession of the Holy Ghost, openly confessed, in letter to all the Eastern Churches, his belief in - "the Holy Spirit, proceeding equally from the Father and from the Son, consubstantial, coeternal with the Father and the Son. The Father, complete God in Himself, the Son, complete God begotten of the Father, the Holy Spirit, complete God proceeding from the Father and the Son..."

The Bible and the Councils spoke in the East. The filioque was concocted in the far fringes of the West.
By the Holy Fathers of the west (whom councils of the east praised as orthodox and examples of the faith) illuminated by the divine truths given to them by the Holy Spirit. Truth is not determined by geography lol

The fact is if the fathers speak the same almost unanimously on one issue, any father who disagrees should be harmonized to the majority.
Your Father par excellence, St. Jerome, noted  "The whole world groaned, and was astonished to find itself Arian."
Exactly. The whole world does not equal the fathers. The fathers are clearly inspired so as such we can trust the majority opinion amongst them. Principle stillness stands. You're getting desperate again lol
From your own mouth:
At one time most of the church was Arian and monothelite. They were corrected so too like on this issue where the minority were.

Your supreme pontiff has pulled the rug out from under you:
Quote
Pope confirms: Amoris Laetitia allows divorced/remarried to receive Communion in some cases
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=29314

leaving aside your imaged "unanimity."
Dealt with on the other thread. This is your little fantasy
no, your big catastrophe.
Your little fantasy lol
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 06:14:19 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #226 on: September 14, 2016, 10:49:35 AM »
  The main goal of marriage is the spouses assisting one another's salvation.
Good, for a moment i thought your marriages is all about sucking benefits of one another, and if someone withheld he can't quite give you the benefit you want it is a ground for annulment.

Then I started to connect the dots on why you feel divorce is bad but annulment is OK, I thought to myself, maybe they don't know what Christian marriage is about....

What an unfortunate choice of words.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #227 on: September 14, 2016, 10:58:27 AM »
  The main goal of marriage is the spouses assisting one another's salvation.
Good, for a moment i thought your marriages is all about sucking benefits of one another, and if someone withheld he can't quite give you the benefit you want it is a ground for annulment.

Then I started to connect the dots on why you feel divorce is bad but annulment is OK, I thought to myself, maybe they don't know what Christian marriage is about....

What an unfortunate choice of words.
why so ?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #228 on: September 14, 2016, 08:57:52 PM »
  The main goal of marriage is the spouses assisting one another's salvation.
Good, for a moment i thought your marriages is all about sucking benefits of one another, and if someone withheld he can't quite give you the benefit you want it is a ground for annulment.

Then I started to connect the dots on why you feel divorce is bad but annulment is OK, I thought to myself, maybe they don't know what Christian marriage is about....
To be clear I do not feel divorce is bad an annulment is ok.  I recognize both are expressions of pastoral economy that arose within their own contexts. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #229 on: September 14, 2016, 10:17:56 PM »
  The main goal of marriage is the spouses assisting one another's salvation.
Good, for a moment i thought your marriages is all about sucking benefits of one another, and if someone withheld he can't quite give you the benefit you want it is a ground for annulment.

Then I started to connect the dots on why you feel divorce is bad but annulment is OK, I thought to myself, maybe they don't know what Christian marriage is about....

What an unfortunate choice of words.
why so ?
If you see Deacon Lance's posts, you'll see he is not one to put the yeast of the Pharisees into the Corban of annulments.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #230 on: September 17, 2016, 05:59:07 PM »
I've already posted this in another thread, but for the sake of reference for future readers and forum goers, I suggest reading my revised translations that I've post in this thread here:

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: A Forgotten History

https://shamelessorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

This also includes new material and translations that I have not posted before.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #231 on: November 16, 2016, 05:08:51 AM »
Thanks for that article. I probably didn't read those sections in the ancient christian commentary of the bible or they left it out. Anyway I feel if a husband takes back a wife who commits adultery he would be commiting adultery with her if he sleeps with her while her heart is somewhere else. And he can not know. Adultery can break a marriage because it is a sign you do not love that partner. Ofcourse it could be commited as a mistake and one may love ones original spouse the most and in that case one can consider taking the person back if one thinks the person is honest. But the one who cheats can not marry again because she is still married to the original partner in the sense that God was still married to sinful Israel even after He divorced israel. She has to love her spouse she divorced but the husband can not know if she will return. Therefore he is allowed to marry another. In heaven God will be married to two Israel and the Gentiles who are saved though they are together the bride of Christ and one
Therefore the person has two wives because he represents God but they are all actually God's wives provided they return back
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 05:12:29 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #232 on: November 17, 2016, 08:37:15 PM »
I agree with the Catholic Church on this matter. You should not divorce. Adulterers who don't repent will not be saved we must not maybe be the cause of it. Some people might have despair
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 08:42:45 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #233 on: November 17, 2016, 09:36:35 PM »
Quote
Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will commune persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church.

--First Ecumenical Council, Canon 8

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #234 on: November 18, 2016, 11:56:54 PM »
So the early church before the split did not forbid communion for those who remarried. I agree not to forbid. But that does not mean it is better to divorce if it will hurt your old partner.

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #235 on: November 20, 2016, 05:15:04 PM »
Quote
Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will commune persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church.

--First Ecumenical Council, Canon 8

Yeah that canon most likely is referring to people who have married once and had that spouse die and then married again.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #236 on: November 20, 2016, 06:33:08 PM »
The context of the canon involves heretics/gnostics/rigorists who refused to allow anyone to get married a second time; the canon doesn't differentiate between different types of 2nd marriages, and there was no reason for them to do so as it is meant to cover all 2nd marriages considered valid according to "the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church." That included--in most of the east anyway--more than just the issue of remarrying after the death of a spouse. Of course people who can't accept that divorce was a thing back then will find this harder to navigate around.

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #237 on: November 21, 2016, 02:13:59 PM »
The context of the canon involves heretics/gnostics/rigorists who refused to allow anyone to get married a second time; the canon doesn't differentiate between different types of 2nd marriages, and there was no reason for them to do so as it is meant to cover all 2nd marriages considered valid according to "the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church." That included--in most of the east anyway--more than just the issue of remarrying after the death of a spouse. Of course people who can't accept that divorce was a thing back then will find this harder to navigate around.

But we have to consider what was customary or church law by then. One thing we can see is a supreme majority of the early fathers around this time affirming no marriage while your spouse is alive echoing scripture. This canon first and foremost must then be referring to legal and valid second marriages after the death of a spouse.  Anything after that is pure speculation
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 02:14:52 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #238 on: November 21, 2016, 05:08:58 PM »
The context of the canon involves heretics/gnostics/rigorists who refused to allow anyone to get married a second time; the canon doesn't differentiate between different types of 2nd marriages, and there was no reason for them to do so as it is meant to cover all 2nd marriages considered valid according to "the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church." That included--in most of the east anyway--more than just the issue of remarrying after the death of a spouse. Of course people who can't accept that divorce was a thing back then will find this harder to navigate around.

But we have to consider what was customary or church law by then. One thing we can see is a supreme majority of the early fathers around this time affirming no marriage while your spouse is alive echoing scripture. This canon first and foremost must then be referring to legal and valid second marriages after the death of a spouse.  Anything after that is pure speculation

There was no concept of "Fathers" at this time period. So presuming that they adopted what the supposed majority of the Fathers said is pure speculation. Furthermore, you have to understand that the faction of those Fathers who believed no second marriages after divorce were only a small fraction of those who didn't believe in second marriages at all.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #239 on: November 22, 2016, 01:34:32 AM »
The context of the canon involves heretics/gnostics/rigorists who refused to allow anyone to get married a second time; the canon doesn't differentiate between different types of 2nd marriages, and there was no reason for them to do so as it is meant to cover all 2nd marriages considered valid according to "the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church." That included--in most of the east anyway--more than just the issue of remarrying after the death of a spouse. Of course people who can't accept that divorce was a thing back then will find this harder to navigate around.

But we have to consider what was customary or church law by then. One thing we can see is a supreme majority of the early fathers around this time affirming no marriage while your spouse is alive echoing scripture. This canon first and foremost must then be referring to legal and valid second marriages after the death of a spouse.  Anything after that is pure speculation

There was no concept of "Fathers" at this time period.
This is simply not true at all and your church doesn't even believe this. There by the time of Nicaea there were such things as fathers as fathers referred to the great teachers that have come before and handed down the apostolic faith.

Quote
So presuming that they adopted what the supposed majority of the Fathers said is pure speculation.
You presuming there wasn't a concept of fathers is pure speculation. There is no way it can be believed that the niceness fathers had nobody to quote or look up to. The fathers have always been there since the time of St Ignacius, St Clement etc who immediately succeeded the time of apostles

Quote
Furthermore, you have to understand that the faction of those Fathers who believed no second marriages after divorce were only a small fraction of those who didn't believe in second marriages at all.


Canon 8 never “confirmed” the more relaxed approach and was not even talking about it.. Though this has occasionally been read into  the text especially by wishful thinkers, yet its virtually certain intent is to permit Communion not to the divorced-and-remarried but to the widowed-and-remarried; for we need to bear in mind that a Christian’s marrying twice in any circumstances – including widowhood – was much debated, giving reason for the Council to address this uncertainty.

To really understand what this canon really means, we must grasp the context. Remember St. Paul’s advice: He thought it a superior course for widows to consecrate themselves to God rather than to marry again, but he acknowledged that they were in fact free to marry, and at times even recommended that young widows should do so . But the Cathari (which means “the pure ones”), or fell into errors of rigorism. One of these was the assertion that it was immoral for a widow or widower to marry a second time even though the first spouse had died.

Thus Canon 8 addresses a specific Cathar error by simply decreeing that they cannot shun communion with widows and widowers who choose to marry a second time.

Note the mere mentioning of practices of divorce and remarriage in other parts by Origen or St Augustine for example is not an endorsement as they neve actually endorse the practice. In fact very few fathers actually endorse the modern Byzantine approach. Not more than 20.

I hate to say it but this is just totally untrue. The western church had long standing history of believing in second marriages as long as they were valid and vigorously fought people who denied second marriage. The east (which isn't only Byzantine although some like to pretend it is) had a similar majority situation. The byzantines laxed their marriage rules for whatever reason and this really occurred blatantly.  (any historian on this matter knows this)

Again just some early sources for example :

Shepherd of Hermas in 140AD (A book of heavy weight in the post apostolic church sometimes considered scripture)

 "And I said to him [the Angel of Repentance who appeared as a shepherd], 'What then, sir, is the husband to do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices?' And he said, 'The husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery.'"

St Justin Martyr

"And, "Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced from another husband, commits adultery." And, "There are some who have been made eunuchs of men, and some who were born eunuchs, and some who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake; but all cannot receive this saying [Matthew 19:12]." So that all who, by human law, are twice married, are in the eye of our Master sinners, and those who look upon a woman to lust after her. For not only he who in act commits adultery is rejected by Him, but also he who desires to commit adultery: since not only our works, but also our thoughts, are open before God."

St Clement of Alexandria

"Now that the Scripture counsels marriage, and allows no release from the union, is expressly contained in the law,You shall not put away your wife, except for the cause of fornication; and it regards as fornication, the marriage of those separated while the other is alive."

St John Chrysostom

"But if it had been His will that he should put this one away, and bring in another, when He had made one man, He would have formed many Women. But now both by the manner of the creation, and by the manner of lawgiving, He showed that one man must dwell with one woman continually, and never break off from her."

Pope St. Innocent I of Rome says in 408

"The practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead."



During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #240 on: November 22, 2016, 10:12:04 AM »
I'm actually correct about the Fathers, Wandile. The very conception of the Fathers is an early medieval invention. For example, Augustine did not hold such high prominent in the Latin West that he enjoys today until the late eighth and ninth centuries. Of course people copied his works immediately after his death, etc. But no one had the conception of "The Fathers" like we do until much later.

As for your comments about the Eastern Fathers:

Quote
The idea by which the matrimonial bond subsisted in spite of a justified divorce, that is, one founded on Matthew’s clause of exception, is formally contradictory to the general position of the Eastern Fathers. It would be tedious to mention all the explicit testimonies to this effect. Let it suffice to mention St. John of Chrysostom, who confirms that through adultery marriage is dissolved and that after fornication, the husband ceases to be the husband.

As for St. Cyril of Alexandria, he expressly states: “It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions.”

Bishop Peter L’Huillier, “The Indissolubility of Marriage in Orthodox Law and Practice,” St. Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly 32 (1988): 206.

And as for the Latin tradition, I already showed it wasn't a monolith. Now if you rather I go dig up more penitentials than Pseudo-Egbert, I might just do so when the semester ends. I'll probably find more mountains of evidence in favor of allowing remarriage after divorce. I highly suggest you read the entire article listed. I can provide it for you if you'd like. The page numbers are 199-221.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #241 on: November 22, 2016, 01:57:28 PM »
I'm actually correct about the Fathers, Wandile. The very conception of the Fathers is an early medieval invention. For example, Augustine did not hold such high prominent in the Latin West that he enjoys today until the late eighth and ninth centuries. Of course people copied his works immediately after his death, etc. But no one had the conception of "The Fathers" like we do until much later.

As for your comments about the Eastern Fathers:

Quote
The idea by which the matrimonial bond subsisted in spite of a justified divorce, that is, one founded on Matthew’s clause of exception, is formally contradictory to the general position of the Eastern Fathers. It would be tedious to mention all the explicit testimonies to this effect. Let it suffice to mention St. John of Chrysostom, who confirms that through adultery marriage is dissolved and that after fornication, the husband ceases to be the husband.

As for St. Cyril of Alexandria, he expressly states: “It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions.”

Bishop Peter L’Huillier, “The Indissolubility of Marriage in Orthodox Law and Practice,” St. Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly 32 (1988): 206.

And as for the Latin tradition, I already showed it wasn't a monolith. Now if you rather I go dig up more penitentials than Pseudo-Egbert, I might just do so when the semester ends. I'll probably find more mountains of evidence in favor of allowing remarriage after divorce. I highly suggest you read the entire article listed. I can provide it for you if you'd like. The page numbers are 199-221.

Look into the scholarly studies of John M. Rist on “Divorce and Remarriage in the Early Church”, and Archbishop Cyril Vasil’, SJ on “Separation, Divorce, Dissolution of the Bond, and Remarriage” in the Orthodox Churches, and a third by Fr. Juan José Pérez-Soba and Stephan Kampowski in “The Experience of the Primitive Church: Faithfulness to the Gospel of the Family”
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #242 on: November 22, 2016, 02:19:50 PM »
Watching Wandile criticise Orthodox practice as a deviation from the Gospel when his Pope is busy trying to impose an even worse imitation of the same amuses me. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #243 on: November 23, 2016, 02:17:56 AM »
Watching Wandile criticise Orthodox practice as a deviation from the Gospel when his Pope is busy trying to impose an even worse imitation of the same amuses me.

What's right is right even if nobody is doing it, and what's wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it. The pope is misguided and has some bad informers hey. Luckily he hasn't publicly taught against the faith on this issue.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 02:48:10 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #244 on: November 23, 2016, 06:46:16 AM »
Watching Wandile criticise Orthodox practice as a deviation from the Gospel when his Pope is busy trying to impose an even worse imitation of the same amuses me.

What's right is right even if nobody is doing it, and what's wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it. The pope is misguided and has some bad informers hey. Luckily he hasn't publicly taught against the faith on this issue.
Looks like some cardinals are calling him to task on that very issue;

Full text of 4 cardinals’ letter to Pope Francis with explanatory notes and 5 questions

November 14, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – Four Cardinals have released an historic September 19, 2016 letter to Pope Francis in which they pleaded with him for clarity regarding his Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia. The letter asked the pope 5 short questions which call for ‘yes or no’ answers which would immediately clarify the meaning of the confusion-plagued document. See LifeSite introductory article.

Following is the full text of the letter and accompanying explanatory notes and the 5 questions:


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/full-text-of-4-cardinals-letter-to-pope-francis-with-explanatory-notes-and
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #245 on: November 23, 2016, 12:48:22 PM »
Watching Wandile criticise Orthodox practice as a deviation from the Gospel when his Pope is busy trying to impose an even worse imitation of the same amuses me.

What's right is right even if nobody is doing it, and what's wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it. The pope is misguided and has some bad informers hey. Luckily he hasn't publicly taught against the faith on this issue.
Looks like some cardinals are calling him to task on that very issue;

Full text of 4 cardinals’ letter to Pope Francis with explanatory notes and 5 questions

November 14, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – Four Cardinals have released an historic September 19, 2016 letter to Pope Francis in which they pleaded with him for clarity regarding his Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia. The letter asked the pope 5 short questions which call for ‘yes or no’ answers which would immediately clarify the meaning of the confusion-plagued document. See LifeSite introductory article.

Following is the full text of the letter and accompanying explanatory notes and the 5 questions:


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/full-text-of-4-cardinals-letter-to-pope-francis-with-explanatory-notes-and

I heard about the Dubia... interestingly Pope Francis refused to answer. He knows his limits for if he had to publicly teach what we suspect he is trying to implement, that would cause a huge schism and claims of heresy would be flung at the Pope. I pray he doesn't succumb to the pressure of his advisors and teach against the faith but rather remain silent or teach orthodox Catholicism on this issue.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #246 on: November 26, 2016, 12:54:41 PM »
I think one important question when interpreting Canon 8 of Nicea is what the Fathers who attended Nicea believed about remarriage. What did Alexander and Athanasius of Alexanderia, Eustathius of Antioch, and Macarius of Jerusalem believe? What did Hosius of Corduba, Nicholas of Myra, Eusebius of Nicomedia believe? Etc.

It is also worth considering that just because one is against remarriage, doesn't necessarily mean that they deny giving communion to the remarried as a concession to human weakness (economia).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 01:24:35 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #247 on: November 26, 2016, 11:30:49 PM »
I've found some more penitentials on the matter. Some of them I am having trouble getting a hold of. I hope to have them translated and whatnot sometime in December or January.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #248 on: November 27, 2016, 12:54:36 AM »
Watching Wandile criticise Orthodox practice as a deviation from the Gospel when his Pope is busy trying to impose an even worse imitation of the same amuses me.

What's right is right even if nobody is doing it, and what's wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it. The pope is misguided and has some bad informers hey. Luckily he hasn't publicly taught against the faith on this issue.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #249 on: November 27, 2016, 01:11:08 AM »
Canon 8 never “confirmed” the more relaxed approach and was not even talking about it.. Though this has occasionally been read into  the text especially by wishful thinkers, yet its virtually certain intent is to permit Communion not to the divorced-and-remarried but to the widowed-and-remarried; for we need to bear in mind that a Christian’s marrying twice in any circumstances – including widowhood – was much debated, giving reason for the Council to address this uncertainty.
they call all instances "polygamy." Which, of course, it is.
The east (which isn't only Byzantine although some like to pretend it is)
Actually none of the East is "Byzantine," although the Vatican likes to pretend it was.
had a similar majority situation. The byzantines laxed their marriage rules for whatever reason and this really occurred blatantly.  (any historian on this matter knows this)
Leo got his fourth marriage blessed by the pontiff in Old Rome, because the Patriarch of New Rome wouldn't.

Again just some early sources for example :
proof texts budding from Florilegia, pretty like climbing ivy but still a destructive weed.

development of doctrine and "living" theology strikes again.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #250 on: November 27, 2016, 02:22:53 AM »
Canon 8 never “confirmed” the more relaxed approach and was not even talking about it.. Though this has occasionally been read into  the text especially by wishful thinkers, yet its virtually certain intent is to permit Communion not to the divorced-and-remarried but to the widowed-and-remarried; for we need to bear in mind that a Christian’s marrying twice in any circumstances – including widowhood – was much debated, giving reason for the Council to address this uncertainty.
they call all instances "polygamy." Which, of course, it is.
How is a widow marrying a new person polygamy? That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

Quote
The east (which isn't only Byzantine although some like to pretend it is)
Actually none of the East is "Byzantine," although the Vatican likes to pretend it was.
LOL

Quote
had a similar majority situation. The byzantines laxed their marriage rules for whatever reason and this really occurred blatantly.  (any historian on this matter knows this)
Leo got his fourth marriage blessed by the pontiff in Old Rome, because the Patriarch of New Rome wouldn't.

His third wife was dead, he was allowed to marry again. The pope was right lol

Quote
Again just some early sources for example :
proof texts budding from Florilegia, pretty like climbing ivy but still a destructive weed.

development of doctrine and "living" theology strikes again.
And as always Isa starts losing credibility with cheap shots and useless pictures but no response to the quotes of the fathers.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #251 on: November 27, 2016, 01:16:27 PM »
Canon 8 never “confirmed” the more relaxed approach and was not even talking about it.. Though this has occasionally been read into  the text especially by wishful thinkers, yet its virtually certain intent is to permit Communion not to the divorced-and-remarried but to the widowed-and-remarried; for we need to bear in mind that a Christian’s marrying twice in any circumstances – including widowhood – was much debated, giving reason for the Council to address this uncertainty.

To really understand what this canon really means, we must grasp the context. Remember St. Paul’s advice: He thought it a superior course for widows to consecrate themselves to God rather than to marry again, but he acknowledged that they were in fact free to marry, and at times even recommended that young widows should do so . But the Cathari (which means “the pure ones”), or fell into errors of rigorism. One of these was the assertion that it was immoral for a widow or widower to marry a second time even though the first spouse had died.

Thus Canon 8 addresses a specific Cathar error by simply decreeing that they cannot shun communion with widows and widowers who choose to marry a second time.
I don't buy that argument. I think that if Canon 8 was only addressing the widow type of marriage, it would have explicitly made that distinction in the text.


Quote
Again just some early sources for example :

Shepherd of Hermas in 140AD (A book of heavy weight in the post apostolic church sometimes considered scripture)

 "And I said to him [the Angel of Repentance who appeared as a shepherd], 'What then, sir, is the husband to do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices?' And he said, 'The husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery.'"

St Justin Martyr

"And, "Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced from another husband, commits adultery." And, "There are some who have been made eunuchs of men, and some who were born eunuchs, and some who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake; but all cannot receive this saying [Matthew 19:12]." So that all who, by human law, are twice married, are in the eye of our Master sinners, and those who look upon a woman to lust after her. For not only he who in act commits adultery is rejected by Him, but also he who desires to commit adultery: since not only our works, but also our thoughts, are open before God."

St Clement of Alexandria

"Now that the Scripture counsels marriage, and allows no release from the union, is expressly contained in the law,You shall not put away your wife, except for the cause of fornication; and it regards as fornication, the marriage of those separated while the other is alive."

St John Chrysostom

"But if it had been His will that he should put this one away, and bring in another, when He had made one man, He would have formed many Women. But now both by the manner of the creation, and by the manner of lawgiving, He showed that one man must dwell with one woman continually, and never break off from her."

Pope St. Innocent I of Rome says in 408

"The practice is observed by all of regarding as an adulteress a woman who marries a second time while her husband yet lives, and permission to do penance is not granted her until one of them is dead."
Unless you got evidence that the Fathers of Nicea quoted from Hermas, Justin Martry, and Clement of Alexandria, and specifically addressed their stances on remarriage in their discussion and formulation of Canon 8, your quotes are irrelevant to the question of what Canon 8 really means.   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 01:28:03 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #252 on: June 15, 2017, 08:37:40 AM »
I am posting this because I think this thread of mine is why I am not married because I am not being true to God

It wouldn't be right for any to continue in a relationship with a cheater who clearly doesn't think you are the best person. I only mean if someone fell in sin accidentally but I don't think it's possible to fall in sin with another unless you don't love your spouse. I suppose if you have been a very evil spouse who treated your spouse bad and made them feel you hate them for a long time but later you realise you love them and want them back after they cheated but even then I am not being exact
I feel bad for all the people cheated on because of me considering divorce many times not perfect when it is. I doubt a cheater really is sorry to the point of loving their husband or wife only that they know they did wrong and wish they loved but they do not. Therefore I don't think I am responsible to care for their mental state unless I am convinced they really love me more than all

« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 08:39:51 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #253 on: June 15, 2017, 08:52:14 AM »
I change my mind. Because of my sins I probably ought to atleast consider forgiveness and I will give them a chance to prove they love me. If their well being could truly be in danger I don't want them to be afraid to confess to me if they truly love me and our children and I am important to them. Them knowing it was a mistake but they could truly love me
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 08:54:03 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #254 on: June 15, 2017, 08:53:05 AM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #255 on: June 15, 2017, 09:01:12 AM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Thanks

Offline Sharbel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #256 on: June 15, 2017, 10:01:18 AM »
He knows his limits for if he had to publicly teach what we suspect he is trying to implement, that would cause a huge schism and claims of heresy would be flung at the Pope. I pray he doesn't succumb to the pressure of his advisors and teach against the faith but rather remain silent or teach orthodox Catholicism on this issue.
Francis is matter of factly teaching heresy.  You only delude yourself dismissing his several statements and letters affirming his heresies because he didn't preface them with flowery words.  That's a legalism that fails to impress Eastern Christians, who look at the fruits: he does teach heresy and several countries are falling into heresy thanks to Francis, papal infalibility dogma be damned.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #257 on: June 15, 2017, 10:27:19 AM »
I am posting this because I think this thread of mine is why I am not married because I am not being true to God

It wouldn't be right for any to continue in a relationship with a cheater who clearly doesn't think you are the best person. I only mean if someone fell in sin accidentally but I don't think it's possible to fall in sin with another unless you don't love your spouse.
It is possible.
I suppose if you have been a very evil spouse who treated your spouse bad and made them feel you hate them for a long time but later you realise you love them and want them back after they cheated but even then I am not being exact
I feel bad for all the people cheated on because of me considering divorce many times not perfect when it is. I doubt a cheater really is sorry to the point of loving their husband or wife only that they know they did wrong and wish they loved but they do not.
Depends on the cheater and the circumstances of the cheating.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #258 on: June 15, 2017, 11:12:37 AM »
He knows his limits for if he had to publicly teach what we suspect he is trying to implement, that would cause a huge schism and claims of heresy would be flung at the Pope. I pray he doesn't succumb to the pressure of his advisors and teach against the faith but rather remain silent or teach orthodox Catholicism on this issue.
Francis is matter of factly teaching heresy.  You only delude yourself dismissing his several statements and letters affirming his heresies because he didn't preface them with flowery words.  That's a legalism that fails to impress Eastern Christians, who look at the fruits: he does teach heresy and several countries are falling into heresy thanks to Francis, papal infalibility dogma be damned.

Calm down a bit. Also, as far as I know, forum rules require to address the bishop of Rome with one of the proper titles.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #259 on: June 15, 2017, 11:39:30 AM »
Canon 8 never “confirmed” the more relaxed approach and was not even talking about it.. Though this has occasionally been read into  the text especially by wishful thinkers, yet its virtually certain intent is to permit Communion not to the divorced-and-remarried but to the widowed-and-remarried; for we need to bear in mind that a Christian’s marrying twice in any circumstances – including widowhood – was much debated, giving reason for the Council to address this uncertainty.
they call all instances "polygamy." Which, of course, it is.
How is a widow marrying a new person polygamy? That is not taught anywhere in scripture.
You didn't specify Scripture, but that can be shown "David begot Solomon from the wife of Uriah..."

I pointed out that the canonical literature and the rest of Tradition call all instances "polygamy," which they do, and which it is-those who have experience (as opposed to speculation in theory in the attempt to preserve the sanctimony of the letter of the law) can attest.
Quote
The east (which isn't only Byzantine although some like to pretend it is)
Actually none of the East is "Byzantine," although the Vatican likes to pretend it was.
LOL
Laughing at you, not with you.
Quote
had a similar majority situation. The byzantines laxed their marriage rules for whatever reason and this really occurred blatantly.  (any historian on this matter knows this)
Leo got his fourth marriage blessed by the pontiff in Old Rome, because the Patriarch of New Rome wouldn't.

His third wife was dead, he was allowed to marry again. The pope was right lol
According to the canons-to which he was bound-no, he was not. On that supreme pontiff (LOL) of yours:
Quote
Because Sergius III had reputedly ordered the murder of his two immediate predecessors, Leo V and Christopher, and was the only pope to have allegedly fathered an illegitimate son who later became pope (John XI), his pontificate has been variously described as "dismal and disgraceful"...Formosus consecrated Sergius as bishop of Caere (Cerveteri) in 893, apparently in order to remove him from Rome. Sergius ceased to act as bishop of Caere with the death of Formosus in 896, as all of the ordinations conferred by Formosus were declared null and void, although...He also actively participated in the farcical Cadaver synod that condemned the pontificate of Formosus... in 898, Sergius, with a small following of Roman nobility led by his father Benedictus, attempted to have himself elected pope,...a rival candidate, Pope John IX (898–900), was also elected...With [the Emperoro] Lambert’s support, John was successfully installed as pope, and one of his first acts was to convene a synod which excommunicated Sergius and his followers...with the rise of the magister militum Theophylact, Count of Tusculum, who had been stationed at Rome by the retreating emperor Louis the Blind in 902. Putting himself at the head of a faction of the nobility, Theophylact revolted against...and asked Sergius to return to Rome to become pope. Sergius accepted, and with the armed backing of Adalbert II, he entered Rome...Sergius was then consecrated Pope on 29 January 904...Sergius III owed his rise to the power of his new patron Theophylact, and rewarded him with the position of sacri palatii vestararius, the principal official at the top of papal patronage in control of the disbursements, and thus of patronage. All real power now devolved onto Theophylact, and Sergius essentially became his puppet... For the remainder of his pontificate, Sergius promoted his family and members of his aristocratic party to positions of authority and prominence within the church...Pope Sergius III convoked a synod which annulled all the ordinations of Formosus and required all bishops ordained by Formosus to be re-ordained [which, remember, would include his own]. It was alleged that Sergius managed to get the consent of the Roman clergy at the synod by threatening them with exile, violence or through the use of bribery. The decision to require reordination was very unpopular, and those affected at sees distant from Rome not only ignored the synod’s instructions, but wrote letters both condemning the revoking of ordinations and justifying validity of the original ordinations.The ruling was subsequently reversed again after his death. Confirming his continued support of the anti-Formosus faction, Sergius honoured the murdered Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had been responsible for the "Cadaver Synod" that had condemned and mutilated the corpse of Pope Formosus, writing a laudatory epitaph on Stephen VI's tombstone. For centuries it was believed that Sergius then had the much-abused corpse of Formosus exhumed once more, tried, found guilty again, and beheaded, thus in effect conducting a second Cadaver Synod...Sergius... continued to defend the Filioque...this decision led to the removal of Sergius’s name from the Diptychs by Patriarch Sergius II of Constantinople...Sergius’ ties with the family of Theophylact were made even closer, at least according to rumour, by Sergius’ supposed affair with Theophylact’s daughter, Marozia. This relationship was promoted by Marozia’s mother, Theodora, and the result of this affair was a male child who in time became Pope John XI (931–935)...Much of Sergius’ pontificate has been maligned throughout history, principally through the reporting of his character...remarkable for the rise of what 19th century papal historians saw as a "pornocracy", or "rule of the harlots", a reversal of the natural order as they saw it, according to Liber pontificalis...This "pornocracy" was an age with women in power: Theodora, whom Liutprand characterized as a "shameless whore... [who] exercised power on the Roman citizenry like a man" and her daughter Marozia, the mother of Pope John XI and reputed to be the mistress of Sergius III...["Servant of God" Card. Caesar Baronius, the ecclesiastical historian author of  Annales Ecclesiastici] describing Sergius as:”a wretch, worthy of the rope and of fire... flames could not have caused this execrable monster to suffer the punishments which he merited. It is impossible to believe that such a pope was a lawful one.”....The best that Ferdinand Gregorovius could say of him was:“That Sergius, who remained Pope throughout the storms of seven years, was at least a man of energy must be admitted, although apostolic virtues are scarcely to be looked for in a character such as his"...while Walter Ullmann described Sergius as a typical representative of the House of Theophylact, concerned with power and sexual liaisons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III

Quote
Again just some early sources for example :
proof texts budding from Florilegia, pretty like climbing ivy but still a destructive weed.

development of doctrine and "living" theology strikes again.
And as always Isa starts losing credibility with cheap shots and useless pictures but no response to the quotes of the fathers.
ByHisGrace has already answered your cheap shot and useless quote mine with misquotes of the Fathers, but to underline, we started with a quote of the Fathers, namely canon 8 of Nicea I. More have already been provided you:
It took me a long time to go through all the material and check & revise my translations, but here is my latest blog post on the history of divorce and remarriage in the Latin West during the first 1000 years:

Divorce & Remarriage in the Latin West: A Forgotten History

https://shamelessorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/divorce-remarriage-in-the-latin-west-a-forgotten-history/

A lot of the material I've already posted elsewhere, however, like I said I have improved my translations and it includes new material that is rather long to post here in its entirety.
a thread that includes
As Deacon Lance points out: "Permanent celibacy is a gift and should never be a mandate. A wronged spouse should not be forced into celibacy because it makes Latin canonists feel better. That one gets married should be proof that God has not given the gift of celibacy."

The stench of the sanctimony smells seven-fold by the fact that one can get divorce-oops! annulled-an infinite number of times with no penitence, no repentance. In the Orthodox scheme of things, after a third annulment would be accepted as proof of inability to contract a valid marriage. It seems all the celebration of annulments is overpowering their odor to throw us off the scent that they aren't passing the smell test.
I wil actually ask a canon lawyer... But I do have a reasonable idea of why this is so
rationalizing=/=reason

Lawyering up is never a good sign of anything.
but missing what you found out from the canon lawyer.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:41:05 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2017, 11:45:09 AM »
He knows his limits for if he had to publicly teach what we suspect he is trying to implement, that would cause a huge schism and claims of heresy would be flung at the Pope. I pray he doesn't succumb to the pressure of his advisors and teach against the faith but rather remain silent or teach orthodox Catholicism on this issue.
Francis is matter of factly teaching heresy.  You only delude yourself dismissing his several statements and letters affirming his heresies because he didn't preface them with flowery words.  That's a legalism that fails to impress Eastern Christians, who look at the fruits: he does teach heresy and several countries are falling into heresy thanks to Francis, papal infalibility dogma be damned.

Calm down a bit. Also, as far as I know, forum rules require to address the bishop of Rome with one of the proper titles.
bishop of the bishoprick of Italy

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2017, 11:50:56 AM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Which "...'s" and "ibid's" and "op cit's" convinced you? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2017, 11:55:26 AM »
He knows his limits for if he had to publicly teach what we suspect he is trying to implement, that would cause a huge schism and claims of heresy would be flung at the Pope. I pray he doesn't succumb to the pressure of his advisors and teach against the faith but rather remain silent or teach orthodox Catholicism on this issue.
Francis is matter of factly teaching heresy.  You only delude yourself dismissing his several statements and letters affirming his heresies because he didn't preface them with flowery words.  That's a legalism that fails to impress Eastern Christians, who look at the fruits: he does teach heresy and several countries are falling into heresy thanks to Francis, papal infalibility dogma be damned.

Calm down a bit. Also, as far as I know, forum rules require to address the bishop of Rome with one of the proper titles.

That's true, Sharbel.  Please be careful in the future. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2017, 11:58:05 AM »
I suspect that most people, of either sex, would be extremely wary of someone who has buried three spouses. ;D
They made a movie about that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm5GgY3PGFs
(it was released as "Drop Dead Darling" in the US. I don't know if they edited the ending for the US, but I remember it as a happier ending, not the result of bad intentions here).

Like you aptly said, we believe in taking a hint.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #264 on: June 15, 2017, 11:59:08 AM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Which "...'s" and "ibid's" and "op cit's" convinced you?
The gymnastics of Corban. Impressive. ;D
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #265 on: June 15, 2017, 01:48:24 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Which "...'s" and "ibid's" and "op cit's" convinced you?
The gymnastics of Corban. Impressive. ;D
It seems to me that your manner of writing is a little bit aggressive. There must be more to the topic at hand. Are you concerned about second marriages being allowed?
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #266 on: June 15, 2017, 01:55:30 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Which "...'s" and "ibid's" and "op cit's" convinced you?
The gymnastics of Corban. Impressive. ;D
It seems to me that your manner of writing is a little bit aggressive. There must be more to the topic at hand. Are you concerned about second marriages being allowed?
not as much as I am concerned about first marriages being dishonored-the industry of your Corban factories.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 01:56:42 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #267 on: June 15, 2017, 02:07:09 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Which "...'s" and "ibid's" and "op cit's" convinced you?
The gymnastics of Corban. Impressive. ;D
It seems to me that your manner of writing is a little bit aggressive. There must be more to the topic at hand. Are you concerned about second marriages being allowed?
not as much as I am concerned about first marriages being dishonored-the industry of your Corban factories.
I got the message. No need to keep harping on the Corban word - it's not nice. But yeah, second (or even third) marriage sounds great, doesn't it? It's easier and really: Who can guarantee that it will work for a life time? A nice little pastoral loophole.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #268 on: June 15, 2017, 02:14:19 PM »
Interesting thread. The various quotes that user Wandile provided are pretty convincing. In the end, this is also a question of credibility and witnessing.

Which "...'s" and "ibid's" and "op cit's" convinced you?
The gymnastics of Corban. Impressive. ;D
It seems to me that your manner of writing is a little bit aggressive. There must be more to the topic at hand. Are you concerned about second marriages being allowed?
not as much as I am concerned about first marriages being dishonored-the industry of your Corban factories.
I got the message. No need to keep harping on the Corban word - it's not nice. But yeah, second (or even third) marriage sounds great, doesn't it? It's easier and really: Who can guarantee that it will work for a life time? A nice little pastoral loophole...
...and back to the Corban, where the millionth marriage can be your "first."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 02:15:46 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #269 on: June 15, 2017, 02:20:06 PM »
*sigh* For the sake of completeness, not that I would think it will help: It is a world of difference whether an annulment states that a marriage did not occur in the first place or you allow second marriages regardless. It's not that complicated, really.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 02:21:14 PM by Lepanto »
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus