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Offline mikeforjesus

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On marrying a second wife
« on: June 07, 2016, 09:49:19 AM »
Hi I know the Catholic teaching on divorce got from the church fathers below. It seems good to me. I am okay with divorcing and not remarrying because of fornication. My problem is what if the first wife purposely does not give you kids. I know you can remarry after she dies. What if she marries you for your money and cheats so she can take your money.  What if she withheld from you important information like she is infertile. I would like answers from Catholics because I was banned a long time ago from Catholic Answers they say because I used a proxy server, because I posted from a library rather than home as usual. I think the real reason is because I made a disturbing post or was biased to the Orthodox Church. I think this post would ban me also. I welcome answers from orthodox with knowledge also

Shepherd of Hermas
What then shall the husband do, if the wife continue in this disposition [adultery]? Let him divorce her, and let the husband remain single. But if he divorces his wife and marries another, he too commits adultery (Shepherd 4:1:6 [A.D. 80]).

Origen
Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seems to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry her [and] who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her (Commentaries on Matthew 14:24 [A.D. 248]).

Jerome
Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives (Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9 [A.D. 398]).

Augustine
Neither can it rightly be held that a husband who dismisses his wife because of fornication and marries another does not commit adultery. For there is also adultery on the part of those who, after the repudiation of their former wives because of fornication, marry others. This adultery, nevertheless, is certainly less serious than that of men who dismiss their wives for reasons other than fornication and take other wives. Therefore, when we say; "Whoever marries a woman dismissed by her husband for reason other than fornication commits adultery," undoubtedly we speak the truth. But we do not thereby acquit of this crime the man who marries a woman who was dismissed because of fornication. We do not doubt in the least that both are adulterers. We do indeed pronounce him an adulterer who dismissed his wife for cause other than fornication and marries another, nor do we thereby defend from the taint of this sin the man who dismissed his wife because of fornication and marries another. We recognize that both are adulterers, though the sin of one is graver than that of the other. No one is so unreasonable to say that a man who marries a woman whose husband has dismissed her because of fornication is not an adulterer, while maintaining that a man who marries a woman dismissed without the ground of fornication is an adulterer. Both of these men are guilty of adultery (Adulterous Marriages 1:9:9 [A.D. 419]).

Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2016, 10:24:37 AM »
Hi I know the Catholic teaching on divorce got from the church fathers below. It seems good to me. I am okay with divorcing and not remarrying because of fornication. My problem is what if the first wife purposely does not give you kids. I know you can remarry after she dies. What if she marries you for your money and cheats so she can take your money.  What if she withheld from you important information like she is infertile. I would like answers from Catholics because I was banned a long time ago from Catholic Answers they say because I used a proxy server, because I posted from a library rather than home as usual. I think the real reason is because I made a disturbing post or was biased to the Orthodox Church. I think this post would ban me also. I welcome answers from orthodox with knowledge also

Jerome
Wherever there is fornication and a suspicion of fornication a wife is freely dismissed. Because it is always possible that someone may calumniate the innocent and, for the sake of a second joining in marriage, act in criminal fashion against the first, it is commanded that when the first wife is dismissed a second may not be taken while the first lives (Commentaries on Matthew 3:19:9 [A.D. 398]).

Jerome is often misunderstood, at least in his Commentary on Matthew:

Quote
[Col.0135A] (Vers. 9.) Dico autem vobis, quia quicumque dimiserit uxorem suam, nisi ob fornicationem, et aliam duxerit, moechatur. Et qui dimissam duxerit, moechatur. Sola fornicatio est quae uxoris vincat affectum: immo cum illa unam carnem in aliam diviserit, et se fornicatione separaverit 146 a marito, non debet teneri: ne virum quoque sub maledicto faciat, dicente Scriptura: Qui adulteram tenet, stultus et impius est. Ubicumque est igitur fornicatio, et fornicationis suspicio, libere uxor dimittitur. Et quia poterat accidere, ut aliquis calumniam faceret innocenti, et ob secundam copulam nuptiarum, veteri crimen impingeret, sic priorem dimittere jubetur uxorem, ut secundam, prima vivente, non habeat. Quod enim dicit, tale est: Si non propter libidinem, [Col.0135B] sed propter injuriam dimittis uxorem: quare expertus infelices priores nuptias, novarum te immittis periculo? Necnon quia poterat evenire, ut juxta eamdem legem uxor quoque marito daret repudium, eadem cautela praecipitur, ne secundum accipiat virum. Et quia meretrix, et quae semel fuerat adultera, opprobrium non timebat, secundo [a 1Kb]  praecipitur viro, quod si talem duxerit, sub adulterii sit crimine. Saint Jerome, Commentary on Matthew PL 26

Quote
Therefore when one has divided the one flesh into two, and has separated themselves by fornication from the marriage, the marriage ought not to hold: lest the man too fall under evil, as it is said in the Scriptures: He who holds an adulteress is foolish and impious.Wheresoever therefore there is a fornicator and a suspected fornicator, the wife (the presumed cheater) is to be divorced freely. And because he (the husband) was able to sever [the marriage] so that anyone may make a false accusation without harm, and on account for the second bond of marriage, he would have been driven to a crime with the old [marriage]. Thus he wishes to divorce the first wife; so that he may not have the second wife living with the first. In fact [or rather on the contrary for such evil lustful designs], what he says is such: if it is not on account for pleasure, but rather injury, you divorce [your] wife: Why then would the injured party who endured an unfaithful first marriage, allow for the peril of a new one? And indeed he was able to proceed so that the joined wife may too wish to render a legal divorce. The same caution is advised [to the woman] in that she may not marry another man. And because the whore and who was once an adulterer does not fear punishment, to the second man it is warned, that if he marries such a person he may be under the crime of adultery.

Jerome seems more concerned with illegitimate divorce. He also casts suspicion upon those who divorce on supposed legitimate grounds, but seek to remarry. He suspects that really they accused their spouse of adultery falsely so that they may satisfy their evil desires.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 10:26:17 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2016, 05:16:06 AM »
Thanks for your input and commentary. That part from jerome seems hard to understand but I understand how you read it. What about those other church fathers ?

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2016, 10:49:07 PM »
On further thinking my conscience tells me the Catholic Church is wrong on this. Those fathers are not infallible. The innocent person deserves happiness. I thought he can fall in love with someone in heaven and thereby the cheating spouse does not keep him eternally poor but that assumes there are single people in heaven which there are but we don't want that to be the case because we want everyone to have kids and it is not good that he falls in love with someone who was once a spouse of another person. Why suffer for another person who may not love you back. If the person is really worthy of forgiveness they will repent even though you marry again
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 10:54:19 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Papist

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2016, 10:58:01 AM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2016, 11:04:34 AM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2016, 12:39:31 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Intention-fracking, the newest method developed by the Inquisition! Truth... Accountability... Innovation... call the Inquisition (tm).
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Offline biro

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2016, 02:26:38 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2016, 03:42:07 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
Yes?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline biro

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2016, 03:50:31 PM »
That's what I thought.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2016, 04:14:28 PM »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Nephi

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2016, 07:52:16 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

Yep. Have a friend who had kids from his first marriage and got it annulled - remarried, had more kids, then got that one annulled too. Legal fiction at its finest.

Now he's in yet another marriage, but did so outside the Catholic Church for some reason. At the behest of his wife I'd guess.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 07:54:27 PM by Nephi »

Offline wobble

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2016, 11:18:08 PM »
. I am okay with divorcing and not remarrying because of fornication. My problem is what if the first wife purposely does not give you kids. I know you can remarry after she dies. What if she marries you for your money and cheats so she can take your money.  What if she withheld from you important information like she is infertile. 

You don't seen to have a very high opinion of women.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 12:34:33 AM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

Yep. Have a friend who had kids from his first marriage and got it annulled - remarried, had more kids, then got that one annulled too. Legal fiction at its finest.

Now he's in yet another marriage, but did so outside the Catholic Church for some reason. At the behest of his wife I'd guess.

For what it's worth, it's a fairly new development for the Roman Catholic Church. My grandfather attempted to have his first marriage annulled by that communion sometime around the late 40's/early 50's because his wife revealed that she never had any intention to have children only to be denied. He ended up having a civil divorce and remarriage. He still attended, just not taking communion, up until the time he converted to Evangelicalism (for unrelated reasons).

I do think it somewhat hypocritical for today's Roman Catholics to criticize our allowance for divorce/remarriage when the modern procedure of annulment is basically the same thing with the serial numbers filed off.
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Offline proudnifi

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2016, 05:51:41 PM »
I have the same understanding as Papist. It comes down to what was the situation at the time of the marriage's start. Or what can be proven to the Tribunal.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Orthodox allowing remarriage when the first spouse is alive. I thought both groups considered marriage permanent but I don't see how that can be.  Or, I guess I've come to understand that isn't the case.

I know some of the posters have concerns about the Roman Catholic annulment process. I do, too. I wonder if it's the same thing in practice. But it's definitely not the same in theory.


Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2016, 09:35:03 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

Oh well, too bad for you.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2016, 01:45:51 AM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

You go to the local RC marriage tribunal, where those three divorces will certainly become zero marriages.   

Offline JoeS2

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2016, 10:07:24 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

Yep. Have a friend who had kids from his first marriage and got it annulled - remarried, had more kids, then got that one annulled too. Legal fiction at its finest.

Now he's in yet another marriage, but did so outside the Catholic Church for some reason. At the behest of his wife I'd guess.

Annulment, what a wonderful word....

Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2016, 10:20:51 PM »
Pope Francis: ‘The great majority’ of marriages are null because couples don’t understand what they’re doing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/16/pope-francis-the-great-majority-of-marriages-are-null-because-couples-dont-understand-what-theyre-doing/

  ???

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2016, 12:29:34 AM »
Pope Francis: ‘The great majority’ of marriages are null because couples don’t understand what they’re doing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/16/pope-francis-the-great-majority-of-marriages-are-null-because-couples-dont-understand-what-theyre-doing/

  ???
Does that hold too if the last conclave admits they didn't know what they were doing?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2016, 12:34:28 AM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

You go to the local RC marriage tribunal Corban factory, where those three divorces will certainly become zero marriages.   
fixed that for you.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline Nephi

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2016, 02:08:01 PM »
Pope Francis: ‘The great majority’ of marriages are null because couples don’t understand what they’re doing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/16/pope-francis-the-great-majority-of-marriages-are-null-because-couples-dont-understand-what-theyre-doing/

  ???

I've actually heard Reformed Protestants argue something similar.

For example, given modern societal views of marriage, most people don't actually mean their traditional wedding vows - even if at a subconscious level. I.e., "I promise to blah blah blah until death do us part" is implicitly understood to mean little more than "I promise to blah blah blah until we hit a rough patch or I get bored or whatever." So one of, or both of, the participants never really meant their lifelong fidelity and sacrifice to the other person. Therefore, the vows were done illegitimately and the marriage was never real.

I imagine they would apply the argument to all aspects of the wedding ritual, including flagrant ignorance on the part of the participants.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2016, 02:16:36 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

You go to the local RC marriage tribunal, where those three divorces will certainly become zero marriages.   

pwned
Quote
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Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2016, 02:19:12 PM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

Oh well, too bad for you.

You do realise that the rule applies to dissolution by death as well, don't you?
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2016, 07:42:26 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

You go to the local RC marriage tribunal, where those three divorces will certainly become zero marriages.   
Only if they weren't valid to begin with.

But I'm just curious what happens in the OC when you run out of mulligans?

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2016, 07:48:53 PM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

Oh well, too bad for you.

You do realise that the rule applies to dissolution by death as well, don't you?
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Well, what would ol King Henry have done? 8)

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2016, 08:08:40 PM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

Oh well, too bad for you.

You do realise that the rule applies to dissolution by death as well, don't you?
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.

Well, what would ol King Henry have done? 8)



Been more involved in the upbringing of his children, one hopes.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2016, 10:42:04 PM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

It's better than to come up with some legalistic mumbo jumbo to allow the same practical effects under the banner of "anullment".
It is the priest, the Church, who bonds two people through the Sacrament of Marriage. It is also the Church who divorces them, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
The Church binds, the Church looses.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2016, 10:59:16 PM »
Actually, if a wife intended to remain childless from the beginning, and this can be proven, the couple will be granted an annulment.

Let's face it, even if it can't be proven, they'll get an annulment. Heck, even if they have kids they can get an annulment.

The Orthodox allow up to three marriages.
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

What happens when that third trip around is really, really bad?

You go to the local RC marriage tribunal, where those three divorces will certainly become zero marriages.   
Only if they weren't valid to begin with.

According to Pope Francis, the majority of your marriages are null from the start.  If that's the situation in "The One True Church" under the Pope of Rome ("sweet Christ on earth"), why expect better from schismatics?

Plot twist: they're not the schismatics. 

Quote
But I'm just curious what happens in the OC when you run out of mulligans?



To date, I have met exactly one person who has been married three times (first widowed, second divorced).  I have yet to meet anyone who "ran out of mulligans", but I suppose, from the Church's perspective, such a person would have to learn to live with it. 

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2016, 11:16:49 PM »
I am just wondering if maybe some of the biggest debaters of this issue should worry about finding wife #1 rather than trying to figure out how to put asunder an imaginary bride.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2016, 01:11:43 AM »
Isn't one time enough?
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2016, 03:30:12 AM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

It's better than to come up with some legalistic mumbo jumbo to allow the same practical effects under the banner of "annulment".
Validity of sacraments is not exclusive to marriage but all.

Quote
It is the priest, the Church, who bonds two people through the Sacrament of Marriage.
In the Byzantine tradition. In the Latin tradition it is the couple who bind each other in marriage not the priest.

Quote
It is also the Church who divorces them, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
The Church binds, the Church looses.

The church was not given authority the break divine law.

"What God Joins together let no man put asunder" (Mark 10:9).

 "And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. " (Matthew 19:9)
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2016, 11:17:18 AM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

Quote
Been more involved in the upbringing of his children, one hopes.
The only thing that fat slob cared about was getting his.....the originial  medieval  royal gangsta . Stealing, robbing, raping and looting his way to the top while he forced a whole kingdom to "recognize" his bogus marriages in his new bogus religion. with him at the top of course, the new king-pope.

Henry was the perfect example of what happens with all these "divorces" these days with people who just have to have things their way. And take a good look around where it's getting us these days with over half the marriages ending in "divorce".

You can thank your Anglo-Saxon betters  and Protestant "reformers" for that.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2016, 11:23:40 AM »
Quote
According to Pope Francis, the majority of your marriages are null from the start.  If that's the situation in "The One True Church" under the Pope of Rome ("sweet Christ on earth"), why expect better from schismatics?
Well, I have to actually agree with him on that. I've seen way too many people with "failed" marriages that should've never been married in the church to begin with. But alas, the Church is full of sinners, like everywhere else.

Quote
Plot twist: they're not the schismatics. 
Ah yes, which makes their anullments even more difficult. ;)

Quote
To date, I have met exactly one person who has been married three times (first widowed, second divorced).  I have yet to meet anyone who "ran out of mulligans", but I suppose, from the Church's perspective, such a person would have to learn to live with it.
That's what happens when you start granting "divorces" to begin with.

You'd think you'd learn from the Protestants.

Marriage is in indissoluble.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2016, 11:29:28 AM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

It's better than to come up with some legalistic mumbo jumbo to allow the same practical effects under the banner of "anullment".
It is the priest, the Church, who bonds two people through the Sacrament of Marriage. It is also the Church who divorces them, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
The Church binds, the Church looses.
Maybe over across the Bosphorus that's how it works, but  no along the Tiber.

It is God that has joined the two together, let no MAN put asunder.

I think you all need to research what an anullment is to begin with and what the process is, in obtaining one before you go making a mockery of it.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2016, 11:32:26 AM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

It has served us well for two millennia or so. The Orthodox believe in second and third chances, but also believe in taking a hint.

You can thank your Anglo-Saxon betters  and Protestant "reformers" for that.

Your ability to bark up the wrong tree never ceases to entertain.

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2016, 11:40:23 AM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

It's better than to come up with some legalistic mumbo jumbo to allow the same practical effects under the banner of "anullment".
It is the priest, the Church, who bonds two people through the Sacrament of Marriage. It is also the Church who divorces them, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
The Church binds, the Church looses.
Maybe over across the Bosphorus that's how it works, but  no along the Tiber.

It is God that has joined the two together, let no MAN put asunder.

I think you all need to research what an anullment is to begin with and what the process is, in obtaining one before you go making a mockery of it.

You really don't understand the subjunctive of "let no man tear asunder" / "quod ergo Deus iunxit homo non separet." As numerous Fathers have indicated, adultery destroys the marriage sacrament, as Jesus proscribed in Matthew 19:9. Mark 10:9 is in the present subjunctive. It is a command, not a statement of fact. The fact of the matter is that humans can destroy what God has joined, but it is against God's will to do so.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline PJ26

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2016, 11:45:58 AM »
Everyone should just cohabitate.  As Pope Francis said:

"I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity”

Problem solved...

;D

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2016, 12:03:06 PM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

Why is it a stupid rule? 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2016, 12:26:54 PM »
The Orthodox believe in second and third chances, but also believe in taking a hint.

May I borrow that? 

Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2016, 12:46:09 PM »
The Orthodox believe in second and third chances, but also believe in taking a hint.

May I borrow that?

Sure. :)
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2016, 06:17:28 PM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

It's better than to come up with some legalistic mumbo jumbo to allow the same practical effects under the banner of "anullment".
It is the priest, the Church, who bonds two people through the Sacrament of Marriage. It is also the Church who divorces them, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
The Church binds, the Church looses.
Maybe over across the Bosphorus that's how it works, but  no along the Tiber.

It is God that has joined the two together, let no MAN put asunder.

I think you all need to research what an anullment is to begin with and what the process is, in obtaining one before you go making a mockery of it.

You really don't understand the subjunctive of "let no man tear asunder" / "quod ergo Deus iunxit homo non separet." As numerous Fathers have indicated, adultery destroys the marriage sacrament, as Jesus proscribed in Matthew 19:9. Mark 10:9 is in the present subjunctive. It is a command, not a statement of fact. The fact of the matter is that humans can destroy what God has joined, but it is against God's will to do so.
Actually Christ Himself restored the original indissolubility of Marriage in which there can never  truly be an absolute divorce;

"Whoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery" (Mark 10:11, 12 — Cf. Matthew 19:9; Luke 16:18).
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2016, 06:18:52 PM »
Quote
So what you're telling me is that in the OC, if three of your spouses die, it's over getting married?

Yes.
Lol! What a stupid rule! and you guys go nutso over "anullments"........funny stuff. ;D

Why is it a stupid rule?
If three of your spouses really did die for one reason or another, why in the world would you not be permitted to marry again?

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline CarolS

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2016, 07:41:52 PM »
A second or third marriage in the Orthodox Church is allowed, but is recognized as less than optimal - something outside of God's plan for us. The marriage service for a second or third marriage is rather penitential in character, not as joyful as the crowning service for a first marriage which celebrates the triumph of chastity. The Church allows these marriages to allow the couple to remain within the bosom of the Church, to provide a family structure for the children, and so the couple would not be "living in sin" outside of marriage. The Church offers forgiveness and a way to mend ones life, but we are not permitted to endlessly change partners.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 07:54:18 PM by CarolS »
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

Offline Rohzek

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2016, 08:59:43 PM »
So you can put asunder what God has joined, not only once, but three times.

Nice.

It's better than to come up with some legalistic mumbo jumbo to allow the same practical effects under the banner of "anullment".
It is the priest, the Church, who bonds two people through the Sacrament of Marriage. It is also the Church who divorces them, so I'm not seeing a problem here.
The Church binds, the Church looses.
Maybe over across the Bosphorus that's how it works, but  no along the Tiber.

It is God that has joined the two together, let no MAN put asunder.

I think you all need to research what an anullment is to begin with and what the process is, in obtaining one before you go making a mockery of it.

You really don't understand the subjunctive of "let no man tear asunder" / "quod ergo Deus iunxit homo non separet." As numerous Fathers have indicated, adultery destroys the marriage sacrament, as Jesus proscribed in Matthew 19:9. Mark 10:9 is in the present subjunctive. It is a command, not a statement of fact. The fact of the matter is that humans can destroy what God has joined, but it is against God's will to do so.
Actually Christ Himself restored the original indissolubility of Marriage in which there can never  truly be an absolute divorce;

"Whoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery" (Mark 10:11, 12 — Cf. Matthew 19:9; Luke 16:18).

That's cute and doesn't address any of my arguments. Christ also granted grounds for divorce, that is fornication. And before you say, "Oh it was just civil divorce, but not sacramental," that distinction didn't exist back then. Checkmate son.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746