Author Topic: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint  (Read 2506 times)

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Offline donkeyhotay

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Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« on: August 16, 2005, 03:18:05 PM »
Nicodemus (formerly of the Sanhedrin), Saint or not a Saint?

In icons of the Entombment of Christ Nicodemus is sometimes depicted with a halo, and sometimes not. Is he a Saint? What is his day? Does anyone know of any icons of Nicodemus besides the Entombment of Christ?

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Offline SeanMc

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2005, 03:25:58 PM »
He's a Catholic Saint, so I'm assuming he's an Orthodox one.

Now, St. Augustine is a Saint, though I've seen people call him "Bl. Augustine."

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2005, 03:31:01 PM »
Blessed is just his title, unlike the tradition in the RCC to call someone blessed before canonization, there are no such steps in Orthodoxy, so it's just a title.
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Offline Silouan

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2005, 03:53:35 PM »
In Greek the words for Saint are a little more loose than the plain English way of simply saying "Saint X."  In Greek there is makarios meaning blessed (same word as used in the Beatitudes, btw), Osios which is usually used for monastic saints meaning righteous, or sometimes saints are referred to by a title "o megalomartiros (the great-martyr) , profitis (prophet)."  So by calling Saint Augustine blessed, it is no way a lessening of his scantity.  If the Orthodox truly had a negative view of St. Augustine then one of the most beloved bishops of blessed memory in the State Church of Greece would not have been Metr. Avgoustinos of Florina. 

As to the first post in this thread, who is the patron saint of St. Nikodemos the Athonite?

Offline SeanMc

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2005, 04:01:20 PM »
Quote
So by calling Saint Augustine blessed, it is no way a lessening of his scantity.

Ok, I heard there's a dispute every once and a while as to whether or not St. Augustine should be a Saint; although, St. Photios defended him quite rigourously.

Offline Silouan

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2005, 04:10:34 PM »
The people clamoring to take him away from the list of saints are mostly non-Orthodox anyway.  Certain groups of old calendarist zealots basicly.  Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote a very good defense of St. Augustine based upon what he learned from his spiritual guide, Saint John Maximovitch.  St. Nikodemos and others all defended him as well.  AFAIK, no Orthodox saint has flat out said St. Augustine was not a saint (or blessed or whichever title meaning the same thing basicly). 

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2005, 04:22:07 PM »
http://www.skete.com/moreinfo.cfm?Category=39&Product_ID=258
http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/feasts/myrrhbearers.htm
http://www.comeandseeicons.com/cw13.htm
http://www.orthodox.cn/prologue/July31.htm
 
Looks like he is, though I dont have the canons to look in or anything.


Joseph Together with Nicodemus
Vespers Aposticha Sticheron, Tone 5, Pskov Chant

“Joseph together with Nicodemus took Thee down from the tree, Who clothest Thyself with light as with a garment. He gazed at Thy Body, dead, naked and unburied, and in grief and tender compassion he lamented: Woe is me, my sweetest Jesus!

A short while ago, the sun beheld Thee hanging on the cross and it hid itself in darkness. The earth quaked in fear at the sight. The veil of the temple was torn in two. Lo, now I see Thee willingly submit to death for our sake.

How shall I bury Thee, O my God? How can I wrap Thee in a shroud? How can I touch Thy most pure body with my hands? What songs can I sing for Thy exodus, O Compassionate One? I magnify Thy Passion. I glorify Thy burial and Thy Holy Resurrection, crying O Lord, glory to Thee.
Qui cantat, bis orat

Offline Silouan

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2005, 04:26:24 PM »
Quote
Pskov Chant

Since it's not BYZANTINE chant I don't think we can trust it......joking, sort of ! ;-)

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 04:28:30 PM »
I dont quite get the joke, but ok.

We sing that hymn at the appointed time. It's one of my favorites.
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2005, 04:33:02 PM »
He's a Catholic Saint, so I'm assuming he's an Orthodox one.

Now, St. Augustine is a Saint, though I've seen people call him "Bl. Augustine."

 ::)  This just keeps coming up.  One of my posts from a while back:

Quote from: Matthew777 on May 11, 2005, 06:09:41 PM


As I said before, if that were true, Fr. Seraphim Rose would already be considered a saint.


You're jumping to conclusions.  Remember how we have told you to think before you type?





Quote from: Elisha
Re: Blessed Augustine
-? Reply #25 on: Fri, Mar 11, 2005, 08:44 PM -+     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the title "Blessed" vs "Saint"...

This is verbatim from The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church by Fr. Seraphim Rose

VIII

Opinion of Blessed Augustine in Modern Times

"In the early years of Christianity, the word "Blessed" with reference to a man of holy life was used more or less interchangeably with the word "saint" or "holy".  This was not the result of any formal "canonization" - which did not exist in those centuries - but was based, rather, chiefly on popular veneration.  Thus, St. Martin of Tours (4th Century), an unquestioned saint and wonderworker, is referred to by early writers such as St. Gregory of Tours (6th Century) sometimes as "blessed" (beatus) and sometimes as "saint" (sanctus).  And so, when Augustine is referred to in the 5th century by St. Faustus of Lerins as "most blessed" (beatissimus), in the 6th century by St. Gregory the Great as "blessed" (beatus) and "saint" (sanctus), in the 9th century by St. Photius as "holy" (agios), these different titles all mean the same thing:  that Augustine was recognized as belonging to the rank of those outstanding for their sanctity and teaching.  In the West during these centuries his feast day was kept; in the East (where no special feast day would be kept for Wester saints) he was simply regarded as a Father of the Universal Church.

"By the time of St. Mark of Ephesus the word "blessed" had come to be used for Fathers of somewhat less authority as the greatest Fathers; thus, he refers to "blessed Augustine" but "divine Ambrose," "blessed Gregory of Nyssa" and "Gregory the Theologian, greatest among the saints"; but he is by no means entirely consistent in this usage."

"Even in modern times the word "blessed" remains somewhat vague in its application.  In Russian usage "blessed" (blazhenny) can refer to great Fathers around whom there has been some controversy (Augustine and Jerome in the West, Theodoret of Cyrus [my comment, typo that should be Cyprus?] in the East)), but also fools-for-Christ (canonized or uncanonized) and to the uncanonized holy persons of recent centuries in general.  Even today there is no precise definition of what "blessed" means in the Orthodox Church (as opposed to Roman Catholicism where "beatification" is a whole legal process in itself), and any "blessed" person who has a recognized place in the Orthodox calendar of saints (as do Augustine, Jerome, Theodoret, and many fools-for-Christ) could also be called "saint."  In Russian Orthodox practice one seldom hears of "Saint Augustine", but almost always of "Blessed Augustine."


This should settle the title issue.  Anymore, please buy the book - an excellent read.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 04:35:11 PM »
http://www.skete.com/moreinfo.cfm?Category=39&Product_ID=258
http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/feasts/myrrhbearers.htm
http://www.comeandseeicons.com/cw13.htm
http://www.orthodox.cn/prologue/July31.htm
 
Looks like he is, though I dont have the canons to look in or anything.


Joseph Together with Nicodemus
Vespers Aposticha Sticheron, Tone 5, Pskov Chant

“Joseph together with Nicodemus took Thee down from the tree, Who clothest Thyself with light as with a garment. He gazed at Thy Body, dead, naked and unburied, and in grief and tender compassion he lamented: Woe is me, my sweetest Jesus!

A short while ago, the sun beheld Thee hanging on the cross and it hid itself in darkness. The earth quaked in fear at the sight. The veil of the temple was torn in two. Lo, now I see Thee willingly submit to death for our sake.

How shall I bury Thee, O my God? How can I wrap Thee in a shroud? How can I touch Thy most pure body with my hands? What songs can I sing for Thy exodus, O Compassionate One? I magnify Thy Passion. I glorify Thy burial and Thy Holy Resurrection, crying O Lord, glory to Thee.

And there is a very nice version on this cd:  8)
http://www.glendi.net/cd/playlist.html

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 04:54:10 PM »
And I love that choir. I want that CD, anyone want to get me a late Names Day gift??:)

Qui cantat, bis orat

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 06:57:02 PM »
Blessed Augustine, Bishop of Hippo  June 15/28

http://www.pomog.org

Check under "Library" for saints listing
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Elisha

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2005, 07:00:22 PM »
And I love that choir. I want that CD, anyone want to get me a late Names Day gift??:)



Thanks.  We rock!  (Yes, it is mine.  I'm so modest.  ;D)  At some date TBD, we will have other recordings (mostly live/unedited) available on the Glendi website as well.

Offline choirfiend

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Re: Let's play Saint/Not-A-Saint
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2005, 11:23:40 PM »
The guest priest you have intoning on those few tracks (the Canon especially) is my favorite male clergic voice yet. If wasn't married and a priest already....;)

When I heard the Canon on AFR I had to find the cd it came from, and I have been eyeing it for a good long time. Maybe I'll request it for Christmas (b/c I am a poor student going into unpaid student teaching and I have no money whatsoever)

Want to trade? I can send you copies of my collegiate cds!!!?
Qui cantat, bis orat