RC mass in EO Church

[Armando]

I couldn't believe what Fr Peter of the Roman Catholic church in Crete told me.
In San Nicholas (Agios Nikolaos) in Crete (a town of 11.000 people), the Greek Orthodox priests
of St Charalambos Church give their church to the Roman Catholic priest to have Sunday Mass!!

A Roman Catholic (the "Novus Ordo" one) mass taking place in an Orthodox church!!
This is a great step in reunion but what do you think about this?

[Michael]

This is a great step in reunion but what do you think about this?

It isn't that great a step if it's being done illicitly.  What do their bishops have to say?  Did Fr Peter tell you that it was all above board or was it one of those nudge nudge, wink wink situations?

I don't mean to put a damper on any hope, but I know of incidences of this sort of thing going on between RCs and Anglicans, even to the point of concelebration, and without the knowledge of the bishops.

I'd be pleased to know the situation here.

[Donna Rose]

This is somewhat off topic, but isn't it true that the main altar (in the church of the Resurrection, I think it's called) in Jerusalem, the Holy of Holies, don't the RCs and the EOs share it? I think I remember my priest or deacon telling me about how they actually change up teh configuration of the space, depending on which kind of service is taking place...this may sound way off, I may have my info wrong (i.e. I may be mixing up several different important altars/churches in Jerusalem), but does anyone know what I'm referring to perhaps?

[Xaira]

This is somewhat off topic, but isn't it true that the main altar (in the church of the Resurrection, I think it's called) in Jerusalem, the Holy of Holies, don't the RCs and the EOs share it? I think I remember my priest or deacon telling me about how they actually change up teh configuration of the space, depending on which kind of service is taking place...this may sound way off, I may have my info wrong (i.e. I may be mixing up several different important altars/churches in Jerusalem), but does anyone know what I'm referring to perhaps?

Ummm, no. Not really.

In the Resurrection Church / Church of the Holy Sepulchre each group has their own chapel(s) which they run and is their "own" space. There are a few "shared" spaces, the entrance with the stone of unction and the Edicule itself (the small structure which encases the Tomb of Christ) are the major "shared" spaces. At each of these places there are large candles, and depending on the group which has the right to use that space at the moment their candle is lit, so everyone else knows whose turn it is. There are three of these candles, for the Latins, Greeks, and Armenians (those are the official names) (the rest of the OO have to get their right to use the "shared" space from the Armenians, the Armenians have priority because of ancient presence in Jerusalem and a long-standing Patriarchate there since the 12th century-ish). In these "shared" spaces there are no altars, so no, no altars are shared in these spaces. Though altars are shared within the OO churches, on Lazurus Saturday last year I got the chance to go to the Coptic service done in the Armenian chapel in Mary's Grotto (the Tomb of Mary) and the Syrians also occasionally celebrate there as well according to ancient set schedule, but no, altars are not shared on the Latin/Greek/Armenian level. When the Latins do afternoon prayer they go on a "pilgrimage" to most of the altars and commemoration places according to ancient rules, and stop at Latin and Armenian altars along the way to pray and sing hymns. And during the Latin's compline prayers and Armenian deacons comes into the middle of it to incense their chapel, again, according to ancient rules. So yes, there is cross-fertilization of sorts, but no, not shared chapels/altars

I only know this because I lived in Jerusalem a while, close enough to frequent the Church regularly and talked to some people there. I am wracking brain to think of any exceptions to what I stated above, but not coming up with anything. I think the change in configuration that the priest or deacon talked about was the lighting of different candles to show who had the "rights" of the "shared space" at the moment.

Just remembered, one exception I heard about was when Pope John Paul II visited the Church. I think a Greek priest told me that they let the Pope use their chapel there to give his speech and cleared out their own services that day to faciliate more people to be able to get into the Church (the Church is really really really really small). But there was no shared altar, no. But I thought it was very nice of them nonetheless.

[SeanMc]

Lot's of people share Churches when one is not available for one party. For example, an OCA parish here uses an Anglican Church and the Catholic chaplaincy at my university used to use an Anglican church as well, but they've since built their own church (an expensive, modernistic one, that could use pews instead of seats with cushions. Where's the penance?).

[choirfiend]

Using some of the same space in the same building is different than using the same altar, though. The OCA church doesn't use the Anglican sanctuary, do they? Proably use their fellowship hall or some other space.

[SeanMc]

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-RO-VANHTC

They say they worship at St. Michael's Anglican, but I don't know if it has a parish hall or not or whether or not they use the altar (perhaps they set up their own), it does have a school and a day care though. Coincidentally, I pass by it every day when classes are in session (and there's another Eastern type church with an onion dome nearby, but I don't know if it's Catholic or Orthodox, I'll have to look that up).

I do know that St. Michael's Anglican is quite into "gay pride" so it may be a little scandalous for them to worship there.

[BasilCan]

I know of an Orthodox mission which uses a Uniate Church for their services. They use the altar, but bring their own Antimens. This is important. All Orthodox Divine Liturgies must be done on one. So, is it wrong to use the Catholic Altar? Well, some Orthodox churches sometimes have two liturgies on a Sunday (by two different priests). One in the "ethnic language" and the other in English or another missionary language.  The particular mission I am speaking of uses the Uniate Church because none of the several other local Orthodox churches would allow the mission to use their altar or even basement. And we wonder why we get nowhere in North America!

Basil

[GiC]

I know of an Orthodox mission which uses a Uniate Church for their services. They use the altar, but bring their own Antimens. This is important. All Orthodox Divine Liturgies must be done on one. So, is it wrong to use the Catholic Altar? Well, some Orthodox churches sometimes have two liturgies on a Sunday (by two different priests). One in the "ethnic language" and the other in English or another missionary language.ÂÂ  The particular mission I am speaking of uses the Uniate Church because none of the several other local Orthodox churches would allow the mission to use their altar or even basement. And we wonder why we get nowhere in North America!

Or perhaps we should ask, more too the point, why did this mission try and establish itself in a city with several other obviously well-established Orthodox Churches, that problem is probably closer to the reason why 'we get nowhere in North America!'

[JoeS]

I know of an Orthodox mission which uses a Uniate Church for their services. They use the altar, but bring their own Antimens. This is important. All Orthodox Divine Liturgies must be done on one. So, is it wrong to use the Catholic Altar? Well, some Orthodox churches sometimes have two liturgies on a Sunday (by two different priests). One in the "ethnic language" and the other in English or another missionary language.ÂÂ  The particular mission I am speaking of uses the Uniate Church because none of the several other local Orthodox churches would allow the mission to use their altar or even basement. And we wonder why we get nowhere in North America!

Basil

Would you mind letting us know what Orthodox community was refused this use of an Orthodox temple?

JoeS

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

Then there is THIS where the Serbian Patriarch offered to allow Anglicans to use his altar and serve a "Christmas Mass" on it!

[ozgeorge]

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6901.msg91060#msg91060 date=1124509017]
Then there is THIS where the Serbian Patriarch offered to allow Anglicans to use his altar and serve a "Christmas Mass" on it!
[/quote]

huh?.........
How do you read this into an article whose headline is "St. Mary's Anglican Church, Belgrade, Denied Access to Orthodox Chapel" ?

Sounds like a case of "itching ears" to me.

[ozgeorge]

Would you mind letting us know what Orthodox community was refused this use of an Orthodox temple?

JoeS

And while you are at it, can you tell us why would they be "missioning" in a place which already  has Orthodox Churches?

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

huh?.........
How do you read this into an article whose headline is "St. Mary's Anglican Church, Belgrade, Denied Access to Orthodox Chapel" ?

Sounds like a case of "itching ears" to me.

If you read the article you would see that the Patriarch did offer and it was laymen who prevented the access.

[genesisone]

BasilCan's description sounds very much like the mission where I worship. There are several Orthodox churches in this area, but all are, unfortunately, more focused on ethnic rather than spiritual issues. The thrust of the mission is to provide a home for English-speaking Orthodox in this area. There are NO other English language services and the local Orthodox churches do not seem interested in providing them. AFAIK, they don't even seem to cooperate amongst themselves. No pan-Orthodox services even at Pascha. It's really very sad. My heart goes out to those who are so close to the faith, but seem to have missed it. We have been welcomed into a beautiful Uniate church. The priest has been most hospitable. There has been only some mild resistance from a few parishoners. The majority of his council are in favour of our being there.
Until we moved here in February, we were in an Anglican church, but were feeling more and more uncomfortable with the messages we often saw on the bulletin boards, even though the people there were very friendly and welcoming.
Much of what went on happened before I came on board. I am a recent convert (as a result of this mission, BTW) so I can't speak with authority about what investigations were made before the mission was established.

Jim

[Donna Rose]

Ummm, no. Not really.

In the Resurrection Church / Church of the Holy Sepulchre each group has their own chapel(s) which they run and is their "own" space. There are a few "shared" spaces, the entrance with the stone of unction and the Edicule itself (the small structure which encases the Tomb of Christ) are the major "shared" spaces. At each of these places there are large candles, and depending on the group which has the right to use that space at the moment their candle is lit, so everyone else knows whose turn it is. There are three of these candles, for the Latins, Greeks, and Armenians (those are the official names) (the rest of the OO have to get their right to use the "shared" space from the Armenians, the Armenians have priority because of ancient presence in Jerusalem and a long-standing Patriarchate there since the 12th century-ish). In these "shared" spaces there are no altars, so no, no altars are shared in these spaces. Though altars are shared within the OO churches, on Lazurus Saturday last year I got the chance to go to the Coptic service done in the Armenian chapel in Mary's Grotto (the Tomb of Mary) and the Syrians also occasionally celebrate there as well according to ancient set schedule, but no, altars are not shared on the Latin/Greek/Armenian level. When the Latins do afternoon prayer they go on a "pilgrimage" to most of the altars and commemoration places according to ancient rules, and stop at Latin and Armenian altars along the way to pray and sing hymns. And during the Latin's compline prayers and Armenian deacons comes into the middle of it to incense their chapel, again, according to ancient rules. So yes, there is cross-fertilization of sorts, but no, not shared chapels/altars

I only know this because I lived in Jerusalem a while, close enough to frequent the Church regularly and talked to some people there. I am wracking brain to think of any exceptions to what I stated above, but not coming up with anything. I think the change in configuration that the priest or deacon talked about was the lighting of different candles to show who had the "rights" of the "shared space" at the moment.

Just remembered, one exception I heard about was when Pope John Paul II visited the Church. I think a Greek priest told me that they let the Pope use their chapel there to give his speech and cleared out their own services that day to faciliate more people to be able to get into the Church (the Church is really really really really small). But there was no shared altar, no. But I thought it was very nice of them nonetheless.

Thank you for the clarification, that is very likely what he was referring to.

D

[username!]

I know of an Orthodox mission that uses a Byzantine Catholic Church for Liturgy.  It all works out good I am told.

[Kizzy]

Actually if you read the histories of many churches in America - Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc... you will find that many started in their early days using another chuch for services...There is one mission in the west that is using a Catholic church Sanctuary.  The RC church by me started in a Reforned church nearby.. When our Orthodox church was looking for a place, both of these churches were options and would have been pursued, with our Metropolitan's blessing,  if they had  an earlier  time slot on Sunday that we could use... as it turned out, both were so full of services and various ministry events that the churches were only empty Saturday evening and Sunday afternoon..

Kizzy...

 

[JOHNYJ82]

When I was in the Military there were no individual churches for each religion.Everyone used the same building.It was all in the scheduling of the services.
In America it is not unusual for diferent christian churches to share facilities at times.especialy in emergencies.
Or when a parish is just starting out. I know of a Coptic congregation that used a protestant church for years until it could buy  one of its own.       

[Fr. George]

When I was in the Military there were no individual churches for each religion.Everyone used the same building.It was all in the scheduling of the services.
In America it is not unusual for diferent christian churches to share facilities at times.especialy in emergencies.
Or when a parish is just starting out. I know of a Coptic congregation that used a protestant church for years until it could buy one of its own.

Actually, this was the most common way of our Greek parishes beginning - the immigrants often times could not afford to build new buildings, so they would start off by renting/purchasing a protestant Church and then after a short time would build their own.  This was often times how these people were exposed to stained glass iconography, the use of the organ in Liturgy, pews, etc.  Once the people got attached to them, they brought them into their own churches; I've even heard the line that they thought it would make the worship service better "to help keep the kids..." (which makes me want to vomit).

I can't imagine this Cypriot church allowing the Catholics to use their Church without the bishop's permission and/or knowledge; I mean, its hard to keep secrets among Greeks/Cypriots, even in a town of 11,000.  Yes, it is in the realm of possibility, I just doubt that he doesn't know and/or approve.

[Fr. George]

As an aside, this model of the immigrants renting/purchasing is quite apparent up here in New England, where many of the parishes have either switched buildings 2 or 3 times in their history, or still operate inside a white plain small rectangle with a steeple.  I was just at such a parish two Sundays ago; they operated out of a protestant-built church that they had bought over 80 years ago; then about 20 years ago it burned down, forcing them to build anew (and, of course, they didn't build a traditional Orthodox-style Church... *le sigh*).

[Krysostomos]

A Roman Catholic (the "Novus Ordo" one) mass taking place in an Orthodox church!!
This is a great step in reunion but what do you think about this?

I dont´t know if having RC mass in a orthodox church is a very big step in reunion - but a very practical one it sure is for roman catholics!
Here in Finland it´s a very common practice, that the catholics borrow a orthodox church for their masses  in diaspora. Finland is a large country with 10 thousand catholics scattered all around and there are not so many catholic churches. So they use orthodox & luttheran church buildings. Ecumenism at it´s best, I think.
The has been rc masses even in the Finnish-orthodox monastery of New Valaam (Uusi valamo)...

[Ebor]

As an aside, this model of the immigrants renting/purchasing is quite apparent up here in New England, where many of the parishes have either switched buildings 2 or 3 times in their history, or still operate inside a white plain small rectangle with a steeple.ÂÂ  I was just at such a parish two Sundays ago; they operated out of a protestant-built church that they had bought over 80 years ago; then about 20 years ago it burned down, forcing them to build anew (and, of course, they didn't build a traditional Orthodox-style Church... *le sigh*).

After 80 years, that architecture *has* become a tradition to them, maybe. 

Ebor

[Birgitta]

A Roman Catholic (the "Novus Ordo" one) mass taking place in an Orthodox church!!
This is a great step in reunion but what do you think about this?

That´s very typical here in Finland, where RC´s are living in diaspora. They don´t have churches of their own for example in Eastern Finland. That´s why orthodox parishes have offered their churches to RC´s.

[Armando]

“In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ “And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
- St. Augustine (AD 354-430 )
Against the Epistle of Manichaeus AD 397
[Contra Epistolam Manichaei Quam Vacant Fundamenti]

“It is to Peter himself that He says, ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.’ Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church, no death is there, but life eternal.”
St. Ambrose of Milan (c. a.d 340 - 397)
Commentaries on Twelve of David's Psalms

[Protokletos]

At my Orthodox church, which is one of the biggest churches in the area, we often loan our church to the local Indian and Melkite churches for weddings.  Our priest draws the line at letting the clergy behind the iconostas, though.  Frankly, I do not see a problem with sharing altars with RCs and OOs (though I guess I'm suspicious of Anglicans). I'm all in favor of Christians doing whatever we can do together, even though concelebration is out of the question.  If ecumenism weren't so wrapped up in muddled new age thinking, it would be a good idea.   

[theoforos]

That´s very typical here in Finland, where RC´s are living in diaspora. They don´t have churches of their own for example in Eastern Finland. That´s why orthodox parishes have offered their churches to RC´s.

You are here too, Birgitta! And Krystostomos!ÂÂ   As for Roman Catholic masses in Orthodox churches, the first RC mass I ever attended actually was in an Orthodox church building. It was in a city that doesn't have a Catholic church at the moment (there has been one and will be soon again, they say). They had brought their own altar table and placed it in the middle of the church. No-one entered the altar room (sanctuary) of the church.

I don't know if there have been any Orthodox services in Roman Catholic churches in Finland (there are far more Orthodox churches than Catholic churches, so there shouldn't be any need), but the Orthodox church occasionally borrows Lutheran church buildings for services in areas where there is no Orthodox church.

[pasadi97]

I couldn't believe what Fr Peter of the Roman Catholic church in Crete told me.
In San Nicholas (Agios Nikolaos) in Crete (a town of 11.000 people), the Greek Orthodox priests
of St Charalambos Church give their church to the Roman Catholic priest to have Sunday Mass!!

A Roman Catholic (the "Novus Ordo" one) mass taking place in an Orthodox church!!
This is a great step in reunion but what do you think about this?

The Church may need to be re blessed.

[Achronos]

I couldn't believe what Fr Peter of the Roman Catholic church in Crete told me.
In San Nicholas (Agios Nikolaos) in Crete (a town of 11.000 people), the Greek Orthodox priests
of St Charalambos Church give their church to the Roman Catholic priest to have Sunday Mass!!

A Roman Catholic (the "Novus Ordo" one) mass taking place in an Orthodox church!!
This is a great step in reunion but what do you think about this?

The Church may need to be re blessed.

"Truly I say to you, that the coming of the age will show a sign of an uneccesary 5 year thread bump" (Sg 66:6)

There's your hint, Poppy.

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