Author Topic: A Rabbit Trail  (Read 4726 times)

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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2016, 03:24:41 PM »
Marriage is not a temptation. It is something that some people want because they benefit from being with another person. But God is unified and satisfied within Himself, so he didn't need to get married to be happy.

"Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: the Trinity one in essence and undivided."

Exactly, no need to add a fourth. The 'other person' I spoke of would be person #4 not person #2.

You said that God is unified and satisfied within himself and doesn't need another person, but we believe in a God who has a Son and a Spirit.  Personal relationship is part of who he is.  Our personhood and our relationships flow from and are reflections of his.  If humans need other humans and need to be in relationship with them--and they do, whatever form that takes--that's not something that has nothing to do with God. 

Whether or not Jesus "needed" to get married really has nothing to do with his need or lack of need for relationships (e.g., "being with another person").  He was born among us.  He had a mother, a father, brothers and sisters, friends, teachers, etc.  He had relationships.  None of those added to the Trinity.   

But a marriage is a different thing than these other relationships. In marriage, "they are no longer two, but one flesh." This sort of union would mess with the eternal relationship of the Trinity by adding a new person to the Godhead.

Can a priest's wife celebrate the Divine Liturgy?

The three persons of the Trinity don't all do the exact same things. Only the Son became incarnate, neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit did this. And only the Spirit was poured our at Pentecost, not the Son and the Father with Him. The three persons do separate things but are still united by their divinity.

But your argument was that marriage unites two people into one, and so what is proper to one person is proper to the other.  If a marriage between Jesus and, say, Jennifer means that we now have a Tetrad, how does ordination of a man not also ordain his wife?

Two married people do not become exactly the same, just as each person of the Trinity is not the same. However, both marriage and the Trinity are mystical unions that bond people together into an oneness that cannot be fully understood.

I suggest you study more and teach less.  Both you and JamesRottnek have really butchered things up here quite a bit, but at least you have a chance.

Forgive me if I come across as arrogant. I strive to be open and willing to learn everyday. However, I still believe the reason I have presented for Christ's never getting married to be correct. I have yet to see an alternative reason.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2016, 03:32:01 PM »
How about: Because we have no reason to believe he did?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2016, 03:32:46 PM »
Forgive me if I come across as arrogant. I strive to be open and willing to learn everyday. However, I still believe the reason I have presented for Christ's never getting married to be correct. I have yet to see an alternative reason.

Your theological presuppositions are, to an extent, flawed, and so your argument fails. 

"Why did Christ not marry?"  Before putting up one's reasons for why he didn't in response to someone else's reasons for why he could/may have, we need to ask why this question is even relevant. 
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2016, 03:38:08 PM »

How about: Because we have no reason to believe he did?
That's an answer to whether or not Christ did marry, which wasn't the OP's question. The OP asked why this was.
That made me wonder something. We know that Christ didn't marry, but was the fact that He remained single essential to our salvation, or merely accidental? Meaning, if He had gotten married, could we have still been saved? Or did He actually need to remain single in order to accomplish His work? Has anyone commented on this?
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Offline HaydenTE

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2016, 03:40:17 PM »
Forgive me if I come across as arrogant. I strive to be open and willing to learn everyday. However, I still believe the reason I have presented for Christ's never getting married to be correct. I have yet to see an alternative reason.

Your theological presuppositions are, to an extent, flawed, and so your argument fails. 

"Why did Christ not marry?"  Before putting up one's reasons for why he didn't in response to someone else's reasons for why he could/may have, we need to ask why this question is even relevant.

The question is relevant because it's what this thread is about. I simply gave my own answer to the question raised in the OP.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2016, 03:53:39 PM »
Forgive me if I come across as arrogant. I strive to be open and willing to learn everyday. However, I still believe the reason I have presented for Christ's never getting married to be correct. I have yet to see an alternative reason.

Your theological presuppositions are, to an extent, flawed, and so your argument fails. 

"Why did Christ not marry?"  Before putting up one's reasons for why he didn't in response to someone else's reasons for why he could/may have, we need to ask why this question is even relevant.

The question is relevant because it's what this thread is about. I simply gave my own answer to the question raised in the OP.

Fair enough.  But I hope we can now appreciate why such speculation often does more harm than good.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2016, 03:57:13 PM »
Forgive me if I come across as arrogant. I strive to be open and willing to learn everyday. However, I still believe the reason I have presented for Christ's never getting married to be correct. I have yet to see an alternative reason.

Your theological presuppositions are, to an extent, flawed, and so your argument fails. 

"Why did Christ not marry?"  Before putting up one's reasons for why he didn't in response to someone else's reasons for why he could/may have, we need to ask why this question is even relevant.

The question is relevant because it's what this thread is about. I simply gave my own answer to the question raised in the OP.

Fair enough.  But I hope we can now appreciate why such speculation often does more harm than good.

Yes, it often does.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Offline wgw

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2016, 10:14:58 PM »
I'm pretty sure people can live without physical connection with others for far longer than they can live without food.

Good point.   See St. Paul the Hermit.  Had St. Anthony not accidentally found him, he would have never seen another human again, and as it was, he saw one man, once, while still alive,for the several decades of his hermeticism, so far as we know.  Yet during that time he ate daily bread and other food brought to him by crows, and drank from the oasis, and ate the odd dare-palm as well.
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Offline Cyprian700

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2016, 09:46:12 PM »
Someone wrote:
Quote
Was it "skeevy" for him to be delivered through the vagina of one of his creatures?

Nowhere does the Church define the mystery of the Holy Nativity of Christ in such a manner as you have described: "delivered through the vagina."  Christ passed through the womb of the Holy Virgin in a miraculous fashion, without breaking the seal of her virginity.  Let our speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2016, 10:09:10 PM »
Someone wrote:
Quote
Was it "skeevy" for him to be delivered through the vagina of one of his creatures?

Nowhere does the Church define the mystery of the Holy Nativity of Christ in such a manner as you have described: "delivered through the vagina."  Christ passed through the womb of the Holy Virgin in a miraculous fashion, without breaking the seal of her virginity.  Let our speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt.

The Protoevangelium says He was teleported out of her in a cloud of light, but is that the same as "the Church" saying so?

Does He have to have broken her hymen in order to be delivered vaginally? I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2016, 10:42:12 PM »
Someone wrote:
Quote
Was it "skeevy" for him to be delivered through the vagina of one of his creatures?

Nowhere does the Church define the mystery of the Holy Nativity of Christ in such a manner as you have described: "delivered through the vagina."  Christ passed through the womb of the Holy Virgin in a miraculous fashion, without breaking the seal of her virginity.  Let our speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt.

Passed through her womb how, then?  Did Jesus teleport into her arms?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2016, 11:02:28 PM »
Someone wrote:
Quote
Was it "skeevy" for him to be delivered through the vagina of one of his creatures?

Nowhere does the Church define the mystery of the Holy Nativity of Christ in such a manner as you have described: "delivered through the vagina."  Christ passed through the womb of the Holy Virgin in a miraculous fashion, without breaking the seal of her virginity.  Let our speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt.

Passed through her womb how, then?  Did Jesus teleport into her arms?

The Protoevangelium of James would seem to indicate as much:

Quote
And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things— because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to you: a virgin has brought forth— a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God lives, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2016, 12:38:06 AM »
That sounds insane.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2016, 03:51:52 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 03:52:28 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2016, 08:02:48 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 08:08:21 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2016, 09:47:18 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2016, 09:51:05 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"

And yet his being human doesn't require a baby daddy.  Or does it? 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #107 on: May 24, 2016, 10:28:51 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"

And yet his being human doesn't require a baby daddy.  Or does it?

No.  But his being born of a woman requires something other than teleportation.
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #108 on: May 24, 2016, 11:04:45 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"

And yet his being human doesn't require a baby daddy.  Or does it?

No.  But his being born of a woman requires something other than teleportation.

No one said this belief equated teleportation.  That's your own polemical presupposition.

It's like an atheist who says that the Eucharist is cannibalism.  That's also their own presuppositions that we don't follow.

Christ was truly human, and truly a man with a Y chromosome.  He was born of a virgin woman who had no Y chromosome to provide for Him.  What does that tell you?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 11:06:35 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #109 on: May 24, 2016, 11:19:21 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"

And yet his being human doesn't require a baby daddy.  Or does it?

No.  But his being born of a woman requires something other than teleportation.

That sounds insane.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #110 on: May 24, 2016, 11:24:15 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"

And yet his being human doesn't require a baby daddy.  Or does it?

No.  But his being born of a woman requires something other than teleportation.

No one said this belief equated teleportation.  That's your own polemical presupposition.

It's like an atheist who says that the Eucharist is cannibalism.  That's also their own presuppositions that we don't follow.

Christ was truly human, and truly a man with a Y chromosome.  He was born of a virgin woman who had no Y chromosome to provide for Him.  What does that tell you?

" and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things— because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary"

In what way is this not teleportation?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #111 on: May 24, 2016, 11:31:42 PM »
First of all, this document from 150AD can contain some popular beliefs.  Given that the Church fathers used the prophecy of Ezekiel to describe the Virgin's perpetual virginity, along with "keeping the seal shut", one can say that both the Protoevangelium and this Ezekiel interpretation come from a common source.  Therefore, not everything in this writing is to be taken as face value acceptable by the Church.

NEVERTHELESS, nothing in what you quoted makes it clear that this is "teleportation".  In the same thing you and I are reading, you are interpreting it differently than I could.  It simply says a huge cloud and light appeared, and when it gradually went away, the child was already born and took hold of His mother's breasts.  The light could simply be a blinding way to cover the miraculous birth-giving.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 11:34:11 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #112 on: May 24, 2016, 11:34:42 PM »
This was discussed in detail recently in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.0.html

I think a lot of good points can be read in there before we call something "insane".  Furthermore, before we call something "insane", we need to put some perspective on things that are believed and why are they believed.  Put yourself in the shoes of an atheist who reads this, and could easily respond, "yea, keeping the seal shut is insane, but virgin pregnancy is TOTALLY sane."

So before you berate what has been believed, take a step back and ask why.
It's insane for worldly wisdom. Far from calling James worldly, I think we all tend to approach high things with this kind of mentality.

No, it's insane from a perspective of "Jesus is a human who was born of a woman"

And yet his being human doesn't require a baby daddy.  Or does it?

No.  But his being born of a woman requires something other than teleportation.

No one said this belief equated teleportation.  That's your own polemical presupposition.

It's like an atheist who says that the Eucharist is cannibalism.  That's also their own presuppositions that we don't follow.

Christ was truly human, and truly a man with a Y chromosome.  He was born of a virgin woman who had no Y chromosome to provide for Him.  What does that tell you?

" and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things— because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary"

In what way is this not teleportation?

It could be Christ miraculously moving through the her flesh without disturbing it.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Online William T

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Re: A Rabbit Trail
« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2016, 12:06:17 AM »
I've heard two Orthodox answers:

1) He could've gotten married but didn't due to His calling and  mission, it wouldn't have been right to put a wife and family through that.

2) The Church is the Bride, so no.

Either way, it tends not to be the same arguments for or against marriage a Catholic or Protestant would give.  I'll try to dig up the sources if you want me to expound more on these lines of thought.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 12:07:02 AM by William T »
Holy Toledo!