Author Topic: Western-Rite Orthodox?!  (Read 2572 times)

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Offline Armando

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Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« on: August 15, 2005, 05:00:46 AM »
First of all:

Are Western-rite Orthodox Christians in union with the Eastern Orthodox?
Because many priests and theologists in Greece that I've spoken too condemned anything
related to the western rite!

B:

Are there any Western-rite churches in Crete, Greece? I would even consider becoming a western rite orthodox priest
if it would be possible in Greece. Not that I hate the Eastern rite, I just dislike it, that's all....ÂÂ  ;D just kidding,
I admire the eastern rite but preffer the western.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 07:06:48 AM by Armando »
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Offline S_N_Bulgakov

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2005, 07:07:32 AM »
That must be answered in the affirmative if we're referring to the Antiochians who use the Liturgy approved by St. Tikhon, I think. There are other Orthodox celebrating a Western Rite Liturgy such as the Synod of Milan, but they are somewhat controversial due to Old Calendarist ties. Though, personally, I have no problem with either Old Calendarists or the Synod of Milan. Than again I am not a canonist and the niceties of canonical-ness might entirely escape my untrained mind.


Question B,.. I don't know.

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« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 07:08:44 AM by S_N_Bulgakov »
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Offline Armando

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2005, 07:12:22 AM »
It looks like I still have loads to learn about EO...
Who are the Antiochians?
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 07:46:09 AM »
It looks like I still have loads to learn about EO...
Who are the Antiochians?

The Church of Antioch. Those under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch, one of the original pentarchy, but now resident in Damascus. (They have a lot of missions in the west).

James
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Offline Antiochian

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 08:57:46 AM »
Armando,

As James already divulged, we are the Orthodox Church of Antioch, which oversees all the east.

Antioch is located on the coast of Syria, but is currently occupied by Turkey (given to them by France in the 1930s, a nice Catholic-Muslim deal to undermine the Orthodox), so our head is located in Damascus.

Antioch was originally a Greek city, built by Alexander the Great, and thus the Antiochian Church began as a predominantly Greek church. However, over time, the locals (once Canaanites now Arabs) became more populous in the congregation and now Antioch, as well as its church, maintains an Arabic tone.

Lebanese and Syrian Orthodox Christians pertain to the Antioch Patriarchate. Most Lebanese Christians are Catholics however, whilst the majority of Syrian Christians are Antiochian Orthodox.

The first ever church was founded in Antioch.


We do have a lot of missionaries in the West, mainly due to the fact that a great number of Syrian and Lebanese Christians have emigrated in the millions all over the world over the past century. And wherever we go, we try to preach the word. The Western-rite in the US is one of many attempts by the Antiochians to lure in Protestants to our faith. Whilst certain traditionalists in Greece would reject such liberal methods to spread the word, the Antiochians have realised the world today is quite different from the world where Constantinople reigned 1500 years ago and as such have adapted to current circumstances. Our faith is not being compromised at all by extending an arm to non-Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters.

We have also embarked on other initiatives in the US, including opening a museum in Pennsylvania.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 09:00:02 AM by Antiochian »

Offline Michael

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 10:03:01 AM »
As with the Eastern Rite Orthodox, there are churches that use the Western Rite which are and which are not canonical.

Here is a directory of the canonical Orthodox communities.

My signature is a quote from the collects from one of the Masses in the Sarum Rite, which is one of the rites used by ROCOR, and which may be found here

There is a fair amount of information on the website of The Saint Petroc Monastery and on this site.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 10:09:27 AM by Michael »

Offline Eugenio

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2005, 02:38:42 PM »
Here is the Antiochian Archdiocese's web page on the Western Rite:

http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite

Offline Mexican

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2005, 02:32:59 PM »
Dear Armando

There are many groups that call themselves "Orthodox" offering "Western Rites" (there are dozns of these sects on the net) but most of them are not Orthodox, they're not in communion with anyone and are false sects.

Western Rites have been subject of a lot of speculation (the French Orthodox wish to restore the Galiican Rite for example, some Brits tried to do so with the Sarum or even older liturgies from manuscripts) and the result is never authentic but artificial.

As Eugenio and the others have told you, the only canonical Orthodox Church which has approved Western Rites is the Antiochian Patriarchate (only in the United States). It was their wish to avoid speculation by approving living rites:

- Rite of St. Tychon (a reverent, corrected form of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer named after the Russian Patriarch who approved the corrections).
- Rite of St. Gregory (the 1965 Roman Missal in reverent English with the reformed rubrics)

Most of the members are former episcopalians and they're very few. Even when I do not have anything against the Western Rite itself (nd it's good to know how a united christianity would look like), the presence of an Anglican Rite seems disturbing to me.

Cranmer conceived this rite with evil purposes, to destroy British Christianity and impose his false political religion persecuting others and cheating the faithful. The Anglicans, knowing that their orders are invalid always tried to cheat Eastern Christians to get orders from them (that's what they did with some Indian Orthodox and Armenians). At some point the Rusian Church was led to think that the Anglicans were a kind of separated Catholic or something lik that.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 02:48:07 PM by Mexican »

Offline Keble

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2005, 03:26:45 PM »
Cranmer conceived this rite with evil purposes, to destroy British Christianity and impose his false political religion persecuting others and cheating the faithful. The Anglicans, knowing that their orders are invalid always tried to cheat Eastern Christians to get orders from them (that's what they did with some Indian Orthodox and Armenians). At some point the Rusian Church was led to think that the Anglicans were a kind of separated Catholic or something lik that.

See here: it is disingenuous to claim this sort of malice. The Anglican fathers "knew" their orders to be valid as much as anyone can. At most it might be said that Anglican clerics misled Russian clerics by implying a breadth of approval that did not actually obtain, and by playing down the theological differences that existed. This is no concession of legitimacy.

Offline Michael

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2005, 03:43:15 PM »
As Eugenio and the others have told you, the only canonical Orthodox Church which has approved Western Rites is the Antiochian Patriarchate (only in the United States).

Would it have been too charitable to mention ROCOR as at least being "semi-canonical"?  It's rather hurtful and disheartening to come to Orthodoxy and see this sort of thing going on here as well.

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2005, 03:54:09 PM »
Would it have been too charitable to mention ROCOR as at least being "semi-canonical"?ÂÂ  It's rather hurtful and disheartening to come to Orthodoxy and see this sort of thing going on here as well.

ROCOR is 100% canonical. Sheesh.

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Offline Michael

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2005, 05:16:52 PM »
Thank you for that, Anastasios.  In my early days of seeking, when no other priests could even be bothered replying to my correspondence, it was priests of ROCOR who made the effort to answer my questions, to comfort me whe I was feeling lost and to just make sure that I was okay in life generally.  They are in full communion with the Serbs and with Jerusalem, and there is every reason to believe that Moscow will be added to that list soon.  It is in the ROCOR jurisdiction that I am to be received into Orthodoxy next year, and their western rite parishes and monasteries are just as canonical as those of Antioch.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 05:17:34 PM by Michael »

Offline Elisha

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2005, 05:22:15 PM »
Thank you for that, Anastasios.ÂÂ  In my early days of seeking, when no other priests could even be bothered replying to my correspondence, it was priests of ROCOR who made the effort to answer my questions, to comfort me whe I was feeling lost and to just make sure that I was okay in life generally.ÂÂ  They are in full communion with the Serbs and with Jerusalem, and there is every reason to believe that Moscow will be added to that list soon.ÂÂ  It is in the ROCOR jurisdiction that I am to be received into Orthodoxy next year, and their western rite parishes and monasteries are just as canonical as those of Antioch.

I'm curious.  Do they have a website with a list of those western Rite parishes?  Thanks.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2005, 05:27:47 PM »
I'm curious.ÂÂ  Do they have a website with a list of those western Rite parishes?ÂÂ  Thanks.

Michael posted the link on this thread above. Here it is again.
http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/directory
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2005, 05:35:22 PM »
Michael posted the link on this thread above. Here it is again.
http://www.occidentalorthodox.org.uk/directory

Thanks for being all too gracious to my blindness.

Offline Eugenio

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2005, 06:02:19 PM »
IMH and not always well-informed Opinion, the status of "Western-Rite Orthodoxy"ÂÂ  is one of the issues that would probably have to be hashed out at a hypothetical Eighth Ecumenical Council (Along with the status of Orthodox churches in the Americas, the status of new national churches in the Balkans, Ukraine and the Baltic countries, an official pronouncement on the right and proper role of the Bishop of "Old" Rome in a possible Orthodoxy which would include the West, relations with the non-Chalcedonian churches, the permissibility or impermissibility of birth control, and reviving the female diaconate).

All of these red-hot issues have various proponents and opponents in Orthodox churches in many countries; and all have the potential to bring about schism from well-meaning people on opposing sides of these issues. Speaking only for myself, I think that the Orthodox hierarchs in many countries should come together and let the Holy Spirit guide them to make the right decisions on these issues. The alternative they face is to sit and let their flocks debate about them for decades, or for the national churches to each make decisions on their own, without consulting each other.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 06:03:10 PM by Eugenio »

Offline Elisha

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2005, 06:43:12 PM »
IMH and not always well-informed Opinion, the status of "Western-Rite Orthodoxy"ÂÂ  is one of the issues that would probably have to be hashed out at a hypothetical Eighth Ecumenical Council (Along with the status of Orthodox churches in the Americas, the status of new national churches in the Balkans, Ukraine and the Baltic countries, an official pronouncement on the right and proper role of the Bishop of "Old" Rome in a possible Orthodoxy which would include the West, relations with the non-Chalcedonian churches, the permissibility or impermissibility of birth control, and reviving the female diaconate).

All of these red-hot issues have various proponents and opponents in Orthodox churches in many countries; and all have the potential to bring about schism from well-meaning people on opposing sides of these issues. Speaking only for myself, I think that the Orthodox hierarchs in many countries should come together and let the Holy Spirit guide them to make the right decisions on these issues. The alternative they face is to sit and let their flocks debate about them for decades, or for the national churches to each make decisions on their own, without consulting each other.

Eugenio,
I realize you are somewhat new here, but this post is WAY too general for this thread, or frankly almost any thread here.  Try using the search function and focusing on one of these topics.

Offline Michael

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Re: Western-Rite Orthodox?!
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2005, 09:33:08 AM »
I have recently come across this article, which contains a wealth of information.