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Offline Daniel2:47

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Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« on: April 08, 2016, 07:43:33 AM »
Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited 256 page document on family issues after 2 years of preparation and consultation within the Roman Catholic Church.

The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of divorced and remarried Catholics and those cohabiting, but does not change the Catholic stance on gay marriage, Sky News reports.

The full document is available here.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 07:52:25 AM by Daniel2:47 »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2016, 07:54:46 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 07:55:37 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 08:10:42 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 08:13:25 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2016, 08:28:32 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Whilst this is true, the problem is that it can be misinterpreted as turning a blind eye to these and that somehow cohabitation is as equally valid as marriage. The next thing to go then is treating it as a sin at all - rather than something to be treated, it is something to be accepted or affirmed.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 09:16:43 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Whilst this is true, the problem is that it can be misinterpreted as turning a blind eye to these and that somehow cohabitation is as equally valid as marriage. The next thing to go then is treating it as a sin at all - rather than something to be treated, it is something to be accepted or affirmed.
It seems that there's a lot we don't understand about this and will never understand as long as all we have are soundbites and rumors of what the document says. Slippery slope alarmism may therefore be a very premature reaction right now. Have you ever read the papal document itself and not just the SkyNews report about said document?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 09:19:30 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 09:34:13 AM »
I don't think the Pope seriously expects anyone to slog through 250 pages. He's a soundbite pope in a soundbite world.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 09:39:35 AM »
I don't think the Pope seriously expects anyone to slog through 250 pages. He's a soundbite pope in a soundbite world.
Even so, reading all of those sections of the document that pertain to the subject of cohabitation is to be preferred to sounding the alarm when you haven't even read one paragraph of it.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2016, 11:15:53 AM »
I don't think the Pope seriously expects anyone to slog through 250 pages. He's a soundbite pope in a soundbite world.

Very true.  Which is why he has to "walk back" any number of the things he says and have them "clarified."
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 11:50:43 AM »
So I don't have to hand out a bunch of formal warnings, I've moved this topic to FFA.

Cyrillic, you should know better: asking about the Roman Catholic Pope's deposal is a fire-starter.  Please review OCNet rules for the General Fora.

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 11:56:23 AM »
So much for the collegialism.  ::)
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2016, 12:30:08 PM »
God bless the Holy Father.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2016, 02:20:18 PM »
I don't think the Pope seriously expects anyone to slog through 250 pages. He's a soundbite pope in a soundbite world.
Even so, reading all of those sections of the document that pertain to the subject of cohabitation is to be preferred to sounding the alarm when you haven't even read one paragraph of it.

For anyone who wants to give it a go, the index begins on page 257 of the English version. But it's not self-evident from the titles where cohabitation is discussed. Paragraphs in the text are numbered, so if anyone finds the key paragraphs could they be kind enough to post the numbers here?

Offline PJ26

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2016, 05:18:46 PM »
I think what you are looking for, regarding cohabitation, is to be found in Chapter 8: Accompanying, Discerning, and Integrating Weakness (Paragraphs 291-312 of the document)

For those perhaps looking for specific, noteworthy (i.e. controversial) statements:

No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and remarried, but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves (297).

Naturally, if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17). Such a person needs to listen once more to the Gospel message and its call to conversion. Yet even for that person there can be some way of taking part in the life of community, whether in social service, prayer meetings or another way that his or her own initiative, together with the discernment of the parish priest, may suggest (297).

The divorced who have entered a new union, for example, can find themselves in a variety of situations, which should not be pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no room for a suitable personal and pastoral discernment. One thing is a second union consolidated over time, with new children, proven fidelity, generous self giving, Christian commitment, a consciousness of its irregularity and of the great difficulty of going back without feeling in conscience that one would fall into new sins. The Church acknowledges situations “where, for serious reasons, such as the children’s upbringing, a man and woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate” [Footnote 329: John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (22 November 1981), 84: AAS 74 (1982), 186. In such situations, many people, knowing and accepting the possibility of living “as brothers and sisters” which the Church offers them, point out that if certain expressions of intimacy are lacking, “it often happens that faithfulness is endangered and the good of the children suffers” (Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World Gaudium et Spes, 51)] (298).

I am in agreement with the many Synod Fathers who observed that “the baptized who are divorced and civilly remarried need to be more fully integrated into Christian communities in the variety of ways possible, while avoiding any occasion of scandal. The logic of integration is the key to their pastoral care, a care which would allow them not only to realize that they belong to the Church as the body of Christ, but also to know that they can have a joyful and fruitful experience in it. They are baptized; they are brothers and sisters; the Holy Spirit pours into their hearts gifts and talents for the good of all. Their participation can be expressed in different ecclesial services, which necessarily requires discerning which of the various forms of exclusion currently practised in the liturgical, pastoral, educational and institutional framework, can be surmounted. Such persons need to feel not as excommunicated members of the Church, but instead as living members, able to live and grow in the Church and experience her as a mother who welcomes them always, who takes care of them with affection and encourages them along the path of life and the Gospel (299).

Individual conscience needs to be better incorporated into the Church’s praxis in certain situations which do not objectively embody our understanding of marriage. Naturally, every effort should be made to encourage the development of an enlightened conscience, formed and guided by the responsible and serious discernment of one’s pastor, and to encourage an ever greater trust in God’s grace. Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal (303).

For this reason, a pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in “irregular” situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings, “sitting on the chair of Moses and judging at times with superiority and superficiality difficult cases and wounded families”. Along these same lines, the International Theological Commission has noted that “natural law could not be presented as an already established set of rules that impose themselves a priori on the moral subject; rather, it is a source of objective inspiration for the deeply personal process of making decisions”. Because of forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end [Footnote 351: In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039)]. Discernment must help to find possible ways of responding to God and growing in the midst of limits. By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God. Let us remember that “a small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order, but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties”. The practical pastoral care of ministers and of communities must not fail to embrace this reality (305).

At the same time, from our awareness of the weight of mitigating circumstances – psychological, historical and even biological – it follows that “without detracting from the evangelical ideal, there is a need to accompany with mercy and patience the eventual stages of personal growth as these progressively appear”, making room for “the Lord’s mercy, which spurs us on to do our best”. I understand those who prefer a more rigorous pastoral care which leaves no room for confusion. But I sincerely believe that Jesus wants a Church attentive to the goodness which the Holy Spirit sows in the midst of human weakness, a Mother who, while clearly expressing her objective teaching, “always does what good she can, even if in the process, her shoes get soiled by the mud of the street”. The Church’s pastors, in proposing to the faithful the full ideal of the Gospel and the Church’s teaching, must also help them to treat the weak with compassion, avoiding aggravation or unduly harsh or hasty judgements. The Gospel itself tells us not to judge or condemn (cf. Mt 7:1; Lk 6:37). Jesus “expects us to stop looking for those personal or communal niches which shelter us from the maelstrom of human misfortune, and instead to enter into the reality of other people’s lives and to know the power of tenderness. Whenever we do so, our lives become wonderfully complicated” (308).

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2016, 11:40:40 PM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2016, 11:54:55 PM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?

Marriage is a gift from God, a sacrament. It is not a penance.  I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what.  My point is that those people who desire "mercy" and to be readmitted to full communion in the church of Rome can be by repenting of their wrongs and making amends.  Cohabiting couples should marry, but again to call marriage penance for one's cohabiting is incorrect.  Unless I am mistaken, even for those who desire a catholic wedding, confession and penance are expected before the nuptials take place.

What I am most distressed by is that for all the pope's talk of mercy and compassion of God, I never hear him talk of repentance. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 12:19:21 AM »
Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited 256 page document on family issues after 2 years of preparation and consultation within the Roman Catholic Church.

The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of divorced and remarried Catholics and those cohabiting, but does not change the Catholic stance on gay marriage, Sky News reports.

The full document is available here.

Will the Vatican explain what exactly is meant by "Greater Pastoral Treatment" ?  I'm quite sure a lot of stray Catholics will want to know what that means for them.


Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 12:21:06 AM »
The pope has been known to come out with controversial statements that are later qualified , this may be one of those .

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2016, 12:21:59 AM »
Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited 256 page document on family issues after 2 years of preparation and consultation within the Roman Catholic Church.

The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of divorced and remarried Catholics and those cohabiting, but does not change the Catholic stance on gay marriage, Sky News reports.

The full document is available here.

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2016, 12:52:52 AM »
#PJ26: I went to bed after posting question #12 and woke up to find reply #13. Many thanks for your careful reading of the papal document and detailed report of its contents.  :)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2016, 12:53:44 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?

Marriage is a gift from God, a sacrament. It is not a penance.  I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what.  My point is that those people who desire "mercy" and to be readmitted to full communion in the church of Rome can be by repenting of their wrongs and making amends.  Cohabiting couples should marry, but again to call marriage penance for one's cohabiting is incorrect.  Unless I am mistaken, even for those who desire a catholic wedding, confession and penance are expected before the nuptials take place.

What I am most distressed by is that for all the pope's talk of mercy and compassion of God, I never hear him talk of repentance.
Maybe you just need to open your ears.
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2016, 07:33:30 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?

Marriage is a gift from God, a sacrament. It is not a penance.  I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what.  My point is that those people who desire "mercy" and to be readmitted to full communion in the church of Rome can be by repenting of their wrongs and making amends.  Cohabiting couples should marry, but again to call marriage penance for one's cohabiting is incorrect.  Unless I am mistaken, even for those who desire a catholic wedding, confession and penance are expected before the nuptials take place.

What I am most distressed by is that for all the pope's talk of mercy and compassion of God, I never hear him talk of repentance.
Maybe you just need to open your ears.

Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2016, 08:51:08 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?

Marriage is a gift from God, a sacrament. It is not a penance.  I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what.  My point is that those people who desire "mercy" and to be readmitted to full communion in the church of Rome can be by repenting of their wrongs and making amends.  Cohabiting couples should marry, but again to call marriage penance for one's cohabiting is incorrect.  Unless I am mistaken, even for those who desire a catholic wedding, confession and penance are expected before the nuptials take place.

What I am most distressed by is that for all the pope's talk of mercy and compassion of God, I never hear him talk of repentance.
Maybe you just need to open your ears.

Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.

That's a pretty bold statement especially considering how long JPII was pope. 

Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2016, 11:27:36 AM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?

Marriage is a gift from God, a sacrament. It is not a penance.  I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what.  My point is that those people who desire "mercy" and to be readmitted to full communion in the church of Rome can be by repenting of their wrongs and making amends.  Cohabiting couples should marry, but again to call marriage penance for one's cohabiting is incorrect.  Unless I am mistaken, even for those who desire a catholic wedding, confession and penance are expected before the nuptials take place.
What I am most distressed by is that for all the pope's talk of mercy and compassion of God, I never hear him talk of repentance.

Didn't mean to get your dander up. Sorry.
I saw it as black and white. Either a cohabitation couple stop living together or get married.
Is it not that simple? Either stop sinning or change.

There is no denigration of any Sacrament and I was being "funny" in a sense of black contrasting it with white,  bringing up the tool of irony, an element of humor, but as in all humor there is an element of truthiness.  Or are there nerves being touchy here? No answer, please.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 11:31:06 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2016, 11:28:57 AM »
Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited 256 page document on family issues after 2 years of preparation and consultation within the Roman Catholic Church.

The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of divorced and remarried Catholics and those cohabiting, but does not change the Catholic stance on gay marriage, Sky News reports.

The full document is available here.

Will the Vatican explain what exactly is meant by "Greater Pastoral Treatment" ?  I'm quite sure a lot of stray Catholics will want to know what that means for them.

Ex-Catholics know what it means:
GUILT, GUILT, GUILT.
 ;)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2016, 12:29:30 PM »
The document argues for greater pastoral treatment of [...] those cohabiting

Huh?

How does one depose a Pope?

According to the SkyNews report:
Francis says couples who live together outside of marriage "need to be welcomed and guided, patiently and discreetly", and the choice to cohabit may be based on external factors such as financial difficulties or cultural situations.
Somehow welcoming and giving guidance seems more productive than the Church turning its back on cohabiting couples and leaving them to their own devices, at least to those of us who view the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a gathering of saints.

Repentance needs to be part of the equation.

Isn't that called marriage?

Marriage is a gift from God, a sacrament. It is not a penance.  I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what.  My point is that those people who desire "mercy" and to be readmitted to full communion in the church of Rome can be by repenting of their wrongs and making amends.  Cohabiting couples should marry, but again to call marriage penance for one's cohabiting is incorrect.  Unless I am mistaken, even for those who desire a catholic wedding, confession and penance are expected before the nuptials take place.

What I am most distressed by is that for all the pope's talk of mercy and compassion of God, I never hear him talk of repentance.
Maybe you just need to open your ears.

Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.

That's a pretty bold statement especially considering how long JPII was pope.
You're moving the goalposts. First you complain that you never hear Pope Francis talk of repentance. Then after Mor refutes your complaint, you complain that Mor compared Pope Francis against a Pope who served for over a quarter of a century. Maybe if you would stop analyzing the trees, you might actually see the forest. Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:31:11 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2016, 01:40:06 PM »
Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.

That's a pretty bold statement especially considering how long JPII was pope.

Whether or not it is bold makes it neither untrue nor a criticism of the current Pope's two predecessors. 
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2016, 03:52:11 PM »
Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.

I don't know that I agree that he speaks more about it, but it is certain that Pope Francis does talk about these topics. Whatever one might say of Pope Francis, he is not a systematic thinker like John Paul II or Benedict XVI, which makes trying to pin him down difficult. However, like his immediate predecessors and the most recent Vatican Council, he is given to overly long documents - papal logorrhea, I have come to think of them. Seriously, Pope Francis's two Apostolic Exhortations alone (not even counting his two encyclicals) exceed all the proceedings, decrees, and canons of the Council of Trent by well over 10,000 words - and that Council touched on virtually every disputed point between Catholicism and Protestantism. Throw in the First Vatican Council, too, and Francis's exhortations are still ahead by a few hundred words. Almost no one actually reads these tomes, and it is arguable that they do any good. Anyone of any position on family issues can find something to like and something to hate in it, and they are probably all correct.
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2016, 10:33:01 PM »
Here's an op-ed by a Traditional Catholic on the matter:

Quote
To universal fanfare from the mainstream and Catholic media, Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited document, Amoris Laetitia, "the Joy of Love," as his conclusion to the Catholic Church's two-year Synod on the Family. But to this Catholic, the pope's supposedly reformist document is a botch job.

For two years, bishops presented their respective cases for two contradicting views of marriage, re-marriage, and the Church's own sacraments. Pope Francis didn't choose between these two options. He chose them both. The pope did not effect some grand synthesis. He merely gave his imprimatur to the Church's own confused practice on these matters and, more frighteningly, to its self-doubt.

As a result, the Joy of Love reads as an admission that God, as Catholics understand him, really isn't merciful or gracious to poor sinners. So priests should try to do better from now on.

More here: The Cowardice and Hubris of Pope Francis
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2016, 10:59:47 PM »
Here's an op-ed by a Traditional Catholic on the matter:

Quote
To universal fanfare from the mainstream and Catholic media, Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited document, Amoris Laetitia, "the Joy of Love," as his conclusion to the Catholic Church's two-year Synod on the Family. But to this Catholic, the pope's supposedly reformist document is a botch job.

For two years, bishops presented their respective cases for two contradicting views of marriage, re-marriage, and the Church's own sacraments. Pope Francis didn't choose between these two options. He chose them both. The pope did not effect some grand synthesis. He merely gave his imprimatur to the Church's own confused practice on these matters and, more frighteningly, to its self-doubt.

As a result, the Joy of Love reads as an admission that God, as Catholics understand him, really isn't merciful or gracious to poor sinners. So priests should try to do better from now on.

More here: The Cowardice and Hubris of Pope Francis
What do you think?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2016, 11:41:27 PM »
Here's an op-ed by a Traditional Catholic on the matter:

Quote
To universal fanfare from the mainstream and Catholic media, Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited document, Amoris Laetitia, "the Joy of Love," as his conclusion to the Catholic Church's two-year Synod on the Family. But to this Catholic, the pope's supposedly reformist document is a botch job.

For two years, bishops presented their respective cases for two contradicting views of marriage, re-marriage, and the Church's own sacraments. Pope Francis didn't choose between these two options. He chose them both. The pope did not effect some grand synthesis. He merely gave his imprimatur to the Church's own confused practice on these matters and, more frighteningly, to its self-doubt.

As a result, the Joy of Love reads as an admission that God, as Catholics understand him, really isn't merciful or gracious to poor sinners. So priests should try to do better from now on.

More here: The Cowardice and Hubris of Pope Francis
What do you think?

At this point: not a lot. I haven't even given Amoris Laetitia a cursory glance yet, so I can't really opine on it. As for this op-ed, I can only speak generally: I'm not a Traditionalist Catholic, and find myself at odds with the RCC's practical approach to dealing with its divorced and remarried faithful (namely: annulments). I would tend to view taking a more pastoral approach to these faithful as a positive step (at least in theory), but again, without delving into the details of the Pope's document I don't have a lot to add to the conversation.

I posted it because I was mostly curious to hear what our resident Catholics thought about it.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2016, 12:12:45 AM »
Here's an op-ed by a Traditional Catholic on the matter:

Quote
To universal fanfare from the mainstream and Catholic media, Pope Francis has issued a long-awaited document, Amoris Laetitia, "the Joy of Love," as his conclusion to the Catholic Church's two-year Synod on the Family. But to this Catholic, the pope's supposedly reformist document is a botch job.

For two years, bishops presented their respective cases for two contradicting views of marriage, re-marriage, and the Church's own sacraments. Pope Francis didn't choose between these two options. He chose them both. The pope did not effect some grand synthesis. He merely gave his imprimatur to the Church's own confused practice on these matters and, more frighteningly, to its self-doubt.

As a result, the Joy of Love reads as an admission that God, as Catholics understand him, really isn't merciful or gracious to poor sinners. So priests should try to do better from now on.

More here: The Cowardice and Hubris of Pope Francis
What do you think?

The opinion piece writer seems to be a punk, and since he has to make a living writes this article simply to stir the pot.
Seems that he wants "the answer" to his setup in what he attempts to create for the reader, while The Pope takes 250 pages to articulate what needs to be addressed, while the writer synthesizes it in his light, then characterizes & denigrates The Pope to make his word count.
The synthesis seems to direct pastors to find a way for the mired marriages that this world seems to produce. The opinion writer wanted a definitive answer to his paradigm, thus being able to make more strongly worded opinions and more money, not to help those suffering from difficult and troublesome marriages.
meh.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 12:14:27 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2016, 11:45:59 AM »
The opinion piece writer seems to be a punk, and since he has to make a living writes this article simply to stir the pot.
Seems that he wants "the answer" to his setup in what he attempts to create for the reader, while The Pope takes 250 pages to articulate what needs to be addressed, while the writer synthesizes it in his light, then characterizes & denigrates The Pope to make his word count.

LOL, you think the Pope wrote all that.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2016, 12:01:49 PM »
Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.

That's a pretty bold statement especially considering how long JPII was pope.

Whether or not it is bold makes it neither untrue nor a criticism of the current Pope's two predecessors.

YOu have yet to prove by way of any concrete statistics that Francis speaks quantitatively or even qualitatively more about repentance than one or both of his illustrious predecessors.

Also, having had a chance to examine some sections of the document, it seems to me that the existence of problems within families, marriages and relationships according to this document is not due to sin so much as it is due to other "mitigating" factors.  Everything is excusable, even abortion (despite condemnation within Amoris Laetitia) is not condemned as a sin but justification is made for its existence.  Cohabitation of unmarried persons is not decried as sinful but labeled as justified because of external factors such as economics or ignorance or confusion about what the church teaches.  If there is no sin, then there is no need of repentance.  There would not be any need of mercy then since sin is not in the equation. 

This document appears to go to great lengths to tell people that all the admonitions of Jesus and St. Paul don't amount to much.  Everything has an underlying cause and you're just a victim of those causes.  Sin has been removed from the equations.

Now, the pope has talked about repentance and sin and the devil.  I have read that several times.  But I cannot square those little soundbites with what is written here and maybe I am not supposed to.  This pope though does have a horrendous track record of speaking off the cuff and then being forced to walk back the statement or "clarify" it.  If this document is to represent his full thinking on the subjects, then it shows someone who is not theologically oriented in the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church but someone who sees that mere bureaucratic reforms and simply being nice are the panacea as to why people are not living by the dictates of the Church and are separated from her.  If this is considered a "pastoral" document, then it is insulting to what it really means to be a pastor.  A pastoral approach does not mean throwing out doctrine.  St. Paul and Jesus would have facepalmed at such a dichotomy.  Again,  this pope shows that he really is an intellectual featherweight compared to JPII and BXVI.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2016, 12:26:34 PM »
The opinion piece writer seems to be a punk, and since he has to make a living writes this article simply to stir the pot.
Seems that he wants "the answer" to his setup in what he attempts to create for the reader, while The Pope takes 250 pages to articulate what needs to be addressed, while the writer synthesizes it in his light, then characterizes & denigrates The Pope to make his word count.

LOL, you think the Pope wrote all that.

Good point.
It matters little what I think. He signed off on it.
Wonder if every Bible Book was written by the name on the Page? Sorry,for the micro-aggression; that's the old Protestant coming out ???
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2016, 02:10:55 PM »
Cardinal Burke speaks on Amoris Laetitia;

‘Amoris Laetitia’ and the Constant Teaching and Practice of the Church

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/amoris-laetitia-and-the-constant-teaching-and-practice-of-the-church/#ixzz45dYO8R2T


REGISTER EXCLUSIVE: Cardinal Burke says a post-synodal apostolic exhortation, ‘by its very nature, does not propose new doctrine and discipline but applies the perennial doctrine and discipline to the situation of the world at the time.’

The only key to the correct interpretation of Amoris Laetitia is the constant teaching of the Church and her discipline that safeguards and fosters this teaching. Pope Francis makes clear, from the beginning, that the post-synodal apostolic exhortation is not an act of the magisterium (No. 3). The very form of the document confirms the same. It is written as a reflection of the Holy Father on the work of the last two sessions of the Synod of Bishops. For instance, in Chapter Eight, which some wish to interpret as the proposal of a new discipline with obvious implications for the Church’s doctrine, Pope Francis, citing his post-synodal apostolic exhortation Evangelii Gaudium, declares:
I understand those who prefer a more rigorous pastoral care which leaves no room for confusion. But I sincerely believe that Jesus wants a Church attentive to the goodness which the Holy Spirit sows in the midst of human weakness, a Mother who, while clearly expressing her objective teaching, “always does what good she can, even if in the process, her shoes get soiled by the mud of the street” (No. 308).


Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/amoris-laetitia-and-the-constant-teaching-and-practice-of-the-church/#ixzz45dYyhwcV

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Offline Irish45

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2016, 06:16:48 PM »
Profound incite on the method of the Pope's thinking.  I know I can't figure him out.  If you read some of his commentary on scripture, you feel that he is an outstanding theologian yet when you read some of his thoughts on contemporary issues, you feel "is this the same man I credited with outstanding commentary?" The only way to reconcile his polarization is to realize he doesn't think systematically. 

Seriously.  That man speaks publicly about temptations from the devil, sin, repentance, and the need for the sacrament of confession more than the last two Popes ever did.

I don't know that I agree that he speaks more about it, but it is certain that Pope Francis does talk about these topics. Whatever one might say of Pope Francis, he is not a systematic thinker like John Paul II or Benedict XVI, which makes trying to pin him down difficult. However, like his immediate predecessors and the most recent Vatican Council, he is given to overly long documents - papal logorrhea, I have come to think of them. Seriously, Pope Francis's two Apostolic Exhortations alone (not even counting his two encyclicals) exceed all the proceedings, decrees, and canons of the Council of Trent by well over 10,000 words - and that Council touched on virtually every disputed point between Catholicism and Protestantism. Throw in the First Vatican Council, too, and Francis's exhortations are still ahead by a few hundred words. Almost no one actually reads these tomes, and it is arguable that they do any good. Anyone of any position on family issues can find something to like and something to hate in it, and they are probably all correct.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2016, 09:52:42 PM »
In my experience, Orthodox Christians seem to have as many issues with cohabitation as Roman Catholics do, and don't seem to handle them any more realistically.

 There's a lot of reasons for people, especially the elderly or the disabled, have to cohabit without marriage.  Some of them are economic reasons of course but they aren't trivial. 
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2016, 02:24:22 AM »
There's a lot of reasons for people, especially the elderly or the disabled, have to cohabit without marriage.  Some of them are economic reasons of course but they aren't trivial.
Middle-class Americans in general are suspicious of any cohabitation that isn't nuclear family, a casual common law marriage (boyfriend and girlfriend), a nursing home, or college roommates.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 02:25:31 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 10:19:18 AM »
I dunno. I see what the Pope is trying to do, but I also see aot of mercy, but not alot of repenting, repairing, and replacing sin.

It seems that more and more of his statements tend to allow people to do what they want, as long as they want to remain nominally Catholic while doing it.

PP
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 10:19:28 AM by primuspilus »
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2016, 10:36:27 AM »
I dunno. I see what the Pope is trying to do, but I also see aot of mercy, but not alot of repenting, repairing, and replacing sin.

It seems that more and more of his statements tend to allow people to do what they want, as long as they want to remain nominally Catholic while doing it.

PP
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2016, 10:45:02 AM »
The one without sin, should throw the first stone, John 8:7.

All you who are perfect please show no mercy to anyone else.
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2016, 10:52:12 AM »
The one without sin, should throw the first stone, John 8:7.

All you who are perfect please show no mercy to anyone else.

"Go and sin no more."
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2016, 11:17:41 AM »
The one without sin, should throw the first stone, John 8:7.

All you who are perfect please show no mercy to anyone else.
All of the sudden someone hurls a rock at Mary Magdalene and smacks her in the head...."bang"!

Jesus turns around and says.." Ma, you really piss me off sometimes!" ;D

Old Catholic joke.  ;)
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Re: Pope issues new guidance to Catholics on family issues
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2016, 11:28:55 AM »
The one without sin, should throw the first stone, John 8:7.

All you who are perfect please show no mercy to anyone else.
All of the sudden someone hurls a rock at Mary Magdalene and smacks her in the head...."bang"!

Jesus turns around and says.." Ma, you really piss me off sometimes!" ;D

Old Catholic joke.  ;)

We should also remember that Christ himself said that only God is good. Mark 10:18.
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

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