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Keble
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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2005, 04:16:02 PM »

I think Ben Lomond in 1998 shows what would happen.

Well, what seems to have happened is that, modulo arguments over who got to keep the property, they succeeded. I say "seems" because I don't know the details of of the crisis and haven't found any particularly good source for such info.
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« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2005, 04:45:40 PM »

Well, what seems to have happened is that, modulo arguments over who got to keep the property, they succeeded. I say "seems" because I don't know the details of of the crisis and haven't found any particularly good source for such info.


Keble,
In the end, yes, but procedurally, they did everything all wrong, they had an improper understanding of obedience, and no, they lost the property dispute.  They also ended up in a different jurisdiction then they originally intended (JP rather than OCA).  Now, the Antiochian group (Sts. Peter & Paul) is only half the size as the slocc group and is saddled with a comparitvely opressing mortgage to pay off.  Kinda a lose-lose situation.  Fortunately, relations seem to finally be thawing.  From what I understand, the <30 crowd wants everyone to kiss and make up and the older crowd is more stubborn (in a strict forgiveness/corgial relations sense, not as in the parishes reuniting or anything).
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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2005, 11:35:20 PM »

Sorry, I don't buy it. Exactly who told you this?


Read the conservative Anglican blogosphere. catholica.pontifications.net is a good resource, Rev Al Kimel left Anglicanism for Rome a couple of months ago, after he had been telling his parishioners for years to do the same.
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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2005, 01:54:33 PM »

When my wife and I were in conflict about the Episcopal Church, we went to our local parish priest who said that he understood our quandary and noted that all Episcopalians would soon have to decide to stay in a modernist church that was evolving away from the Bible and the Teachings of Christ as understood by Anglicans for hundreds of years or return to either the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Churchs with their more BASIC patristic understandings and stands.  My wife and I chose to go the the Eastern Orthodox Church, and our Episcopal Priest gave us his blessing even writting a letter of introduction to the Orthodox Priest letting him know that we were honest and good Christians seeking to return home to the Orthodox Church.  It greatly helped us in making the acquaintance of the local Orthodox Pyrites and avoided those questions, I have heard others say they were told "You're not Greek (Russian, Ukrainian, Arabic, etc) Why would you want to become Orthodox?"

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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2005, 02:45:27 PM »

Sorry, I don't buy it. Exactly who told you this?


AN anecdote (FWIW):
There is a small (rather conservative) ECUSA chapel in NorCal that is friends with a nearby OCA monaster. This ECUSA chapel is in a retreat center that has a bookstore with more Orthodox than non-Orthodox books.  I've been told that the priest would like to become Orthodox, but doesn't want to have to give up his pension.
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2005, 04:46:59 PM »

Read the conservative Anglican blogosphere. catholica.pontifications.net is a good resource, Rev Al Kimel left Anglicanism for Rome a couple of months ago, after he had been telling his parishioners for years to do the same.

Oh, come on. Surely you are aware by now that Al Kimel is no longer an Anglican.

I follow anglo-doings through Kendal Harmon's titusonenine, which, with the waning of David Virtue's site, has become the standard source of links to Anglican happenings. Al's blog has always been dominated by sermons and expressions of personal opinion rather than news.

And then there is the Person of Alvin F Kimel himself... Folks, better go to DEFCON 4. I knew AL personally; he was my rector for something like a decade. He married me, and he baptized my first-born. He gave me communion on the order of five hundred times. When he and the other wrote the Baltimore Declaration, mine were among the hands that folded and stuffed envelopes to send it to every Episcopal cleric in the nation.

We he posted his Fly, You Fools article, I was greatly disturbed and annoyed. Annoyed, because the last thing I thought ECUSA needed was someone telling the orthodox to throw in the towel, and prematurely at that (the Windsor Report had been released within the week). Disturbed, because I found his advice deeply compromised by his position. A priest in one church has no business telling his charges to abandon it; if I had been Duncan (his bishop), he would have been inhibited that very day. As it was, I sent him an e-mail which (I thought) somewhat tentatively expressed my reservations at what he was saying. I got a condescending and dismissive reply, and I never really communicated with him on a personal basis again. It was just a matter of time before he forswore his old orders and headed off toward RC ordination. And anyway, there was no place to fly to. The RC churches around us are awful, except maybe the church on Arcola which was a hideous building but which might be OK if the priest I remember from years back were still there.

About a month later, he picked on me for complaining about the uses of infallibility. I largely turned away after that because I don't much care to read online sermons (of which he posted a lot) and because his Romophilia was obvious and irrelevant to my situation. And finally, in mid-May, he announced that he was converting, to become an RC priest. It hurt me. I wrote of his announcement as giving me "a sense of betrayal". SInce then his blog has become a cheering section for Roman triumphalism. It makes me sick to read it.

But dont let me stop you. Just don't suffer any delusion that you are getting some sort of Anglican account, because you haven't been-- not for at least a year. And of all the ways to leave, I hold Al''s way to have been among the worst.
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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2005, 08:48:57 PM »

One of our parishoners is an ex-Anglican.  He's probably one of the best things that happened to our little church.  He's from England and is an unbelievably efficient organizer.  I'm not saying that the two are necessarily linked.  Well.  Maybe. 

At any rate, he left Anglicanism because he disagrees with it, in both its conservative and liberal flavors.  I don't suggest anyone stop being an Anglican because they want to be more conservative but agree with all theology Anglican.
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« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2005, 01:11:25 AM »

Quote
He's from England and is an unbelievably efficient organizer.  I'm not saying that the two are necessarily linked.  Well.  Maybe.

Then how does one explain Heathrow Airport if the traits are linked?  Besides being a nightmare, England is bloody expensive. 
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2005, 09:07:23 PM »

Because Heathrow has a lot of Irish working in it.   Grin
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2005, 11:21:41 PM »

My problem was all the non-Brits working there (I think Indians, some Arabs and some other Asians mostly).  When you have a foriegn accent, plus a british accent....well I just simply couldn't understand them.  I got some funny looks when I asked people if they spoke American.  I can almost say it was easier to communicate when I was in Germany and Greece.   
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2005, 08:04:54 PM »

So, I am really sorry that I have not replied to my own thread in so long, but my internet was not working.  So sorry.

But thank you all for your replies, they were helpful(I got to read 4 of them before the internet quit on me). And I can still use them since I have not completely told everyone who needs to be told.

So here is an update:
Last Sunday I went to the Episcopal Church and I told the Sunday School Director, and we didn't have much time to talk then.  So, we arranged to have coffee today, which we did.  We had a nice, long, two hour conversation that went pretty well. Basically, I told her what Orthodoxy teaches and answered her questions and told her what I didn't like about the Episcopal Church(though this was only because she asked me).  She actually is very supportive and shares many opinions with me in regards to the Episcopal Church.  She said that she wanted to talk to me because she wanted to know that I was converting to Orthodoxy because I wanted to get closer to God, not because I was rebelling or something.  She was actually really happy that I had decided to commit my life to God.  So actually it was quite nice, to know that she cared that much. We actually will have coffee again in a few weeks and I'll tell her how things are going at the Orthodox church.  She even wants to know when I'll be chrismated so that she can come see.  As for telling the priest, I haven't done that yet, though I have tried.  But everytime I try to talk to him, he is too busy.  Though that has pretty much been the story of my entire relationship with him, he's "too busy".  So I will try to tell him ASAP and the Christian Education Director has said that she won't say anything to him, though he'll know by next Sunday since she will tell my Sunday School class that I am converting to Orthodoxy.

Oh, and as for where my Episcopal priest stands doctrinally, I think he is middle-of-the road.  He isn't conservative, but he isn't a huge liberal either.  I am anticipating that he will be mildly opposed to my conversion and might try to talk me out of it.  He probably has experience with Orthodoxy too, since he lived in Alaska a long time and speaks fluent Russian(as well as Yup'ik, Inupiaq, German, and some biblical Greek)...

Things at the Orthodox Church are going great.  I have since started going to the Inquirer's class and I've talked to the priest a bit about where I'm coming from and how I want to become Orthodox, though we need to talk more.  Interestingly enough, the Orthodox priest at the church I go to is himself a convert from the Episcopal Church, as are many at that church.  It's a cool place. 

One thing I am mildly concerned about though is toll houses.  The priest in the Orthodox Church said that they are real and that most Orthodox believe in them and that all the Church Fathers believe in them.  And he recommended Seraphim Rose's book "Life After Death" as a good book to find out what the Orthodox church believes regarding what happens after we die.  I could be wrong, but I thought toll houses were not mainstream Orthodoxy and that most Orthodox consider "Life After Death" to have a lot of errors in it...Could someone clear this up?

Thanks!
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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2005, 10:22:31 PM »

One thing I am mildly concerned about though is toll houses.ÂÂ  The priest in the Orthodox Church said that they are real and that most Orthodox believe in them and that all the Church Fathers believe in them.ÂÂ  

This is incorrect. Most Orthodox Clergy reject the strict idea of "toll houses"
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2005, 10:32:34 PM »

There's an idea of some sort of trials of the soul after death, wherein the soul experiences some sort of "reaction," as it were, to its state at death once it's separated from its body.

Some Fathers wrote of this as toll houses the soul passes through as it ascends through the air; others (earlier Fathers like St. Irenaeus) wrote of an intermediate place of the dead wherein the righteous are purified in preparation for the Judgement and entrance into Heaven, while the unrighteous experience some torment as their unrepented-of sins condemn them.

Either way, it seems different metaphors are used to describe the period between the departure of the soul from the body and the General Resurrection of the Dead.  Your priest is right about the idea of a purgatorial trial after death, but incorrect in insisting that all or even most Orthodox take Fr. Seraphim at face value.  The Fathers are clear, however, that there is a trial of some sort, where the soul is brought into contact with its true state.

This, at least, is my understanding.
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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2005, 10:57:34 PM »

This is incorrect. Most Orthodox Clergy reject the strict idea of "toll houses"
Could you please cite your source of this statistic?
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« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2005, 11:40:48 PM »

There's an idea of some sort of trials of the soul after death, wherein the soul experiences some sort of "reaction," as it were, to its state at death once it's separated from its body.

Some Fathers wrote of this as toll houses the soul passes through as it ascends through the air; others (earlier Fathers like St. Irenaeus) wrote of an intermediate place of the dead wherein the righteous are purified in preparation for the Judgement and entrance into Heaven, while the unrighteous experience some torment as their unrepented-of sins condemn them.

And some of our Fathers are Universalists; you are trying to make the Soteriology of the Antiochian School of Thought out to be the posistion of the Fathers, when both the Alexandrian and Cappadocian Schools of thought would have favoured a far more liberal view of salvation. But the concept of 'Toll Houses' as it is presented today would have probably even been a bit extreme and draconian for the Antiochian Fathers. Though we cannot say for certain what the 'patristic view' of soteriology was, we can certainly say that there was not unanimity on the subject.
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« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2005, 12:00:56 AM »

One would think that the controversy inevitably engendered by bringing up the subject of "toll houses" is sufficient demonstration that they are not universally accepted in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2005, 12:06:20 AM »

One would think that the controversy inevtiably engendered by bringing up the subject of "toll houses" is sufficient demonstration that they are not universally accepted in Orthodoxy.

Touché.  Cool 

Good point Keble.
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2005, 12:11:55 AM »

One would think that the controversy inevtiably engendered by bringing up the subject of "toll houses" is sufficient demonstration that they are not universally accepted in Orthodoxy.

If we take this as the "source" of our statistics, then what do the recent posts about Blacks in New Orleans say about the Christian view on racism?  Forget 'netodoxy' Keble- too many nutters with too many agendas.
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« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2005, 11:55:49 PM »

Could you please cite your source of this statistic?

GOA does not promote the teaching of Toll Houses
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« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2005, 06:58:00 PM »

Some in the GOA do not promote the teaching of tollhouses, that is.

IME the majority of GOA priests don't really delve into the issue so don't really support either side in the "debate."  There is a fairly small group that is radically anti-toll house.  Also among the philomonastic clergy of the GOA tollhouses are accepted, but IME are taught in primarily a pastoral rather than dogmatic context (i.e in confession the priest will suggest thinking of the toll houses to help avoid temptations). 

In the actual Greek Church the most widely respected opinion on the matter is Metr. Hierotheos Vlachos.
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« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2005, 09:09:24 PM »

Thanks again for your responses.  They really helped.  I guess I am the one who needs to rethink my position on toll houses as now that I think about it I really didn't know a lot about them and just made the rash judgement that they aren't real because, honestly, they scare the crap out of me.  But that is stupid of me, just because something scares me doesn't mean it isn't real and it definitely is not helpful to pretend they don't exist just because they scare me.  Heck, if I just ignored things that scared me, I would have stopped looking at Orthodoxy long ago.  Just out of curiosity, was anyone else scared by Orthodoxy in general before you became Orthodox?  Maybe that is just because of the liberal Episcopal background that I am coming from, where nobody has to do anything to be saved...

 
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« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2005, 10:17:13 PM »

GOA does not promote the teaching of Toll Houses

That's not really a statistic now, is it TomS?
And the GOA of America doesn't "promote" weekday Vespers in it's parishes either- does this make it a practice not universally held to be Orthodox?
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« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2005, 10:42:51 PM »

That's not really a statistic now, is it TomS?
And the GOA of America doesn't "promote" weekday Vespers in it's parishes either- does this make it a practice not universally held to be Orthodox?

We all know about Statistics, don't we?

Re: Vespers. If the GOA does not think they are important, then they must not be. Because Greek IS Orthodoxy - all others are simply followers.
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« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2005, 10:59:15 PM »

We all know about Statistics, don't we?

Re: Vespers. If the GOA does not think they are important, then they must not be. Because Greek IS Orthodoxy - all others are simply followers.

A fascinating thesis you have there....but I dare say you may lose points for plagiarism Wink
When do you intend to publish the full results of your survey of all Orthodox Clergy which shows that:
This is incorrect. Most Orthodox Clergy reject the strict idea of "toll houses"
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« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2005, 11:01:50 PM »

And could you explain the difference between the "strict idea" and "non-strict idea" of the toll houses, and how you worded this as a survey question?
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« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2005, 11:20:19 PM »

And could you explain the difference between the "strict idea" and "non-strict idea" of the toll houses, and how you worded this as a survey question?

But why bother? I have no need to try to convince anyone. I was simply stating my belief. If you want to know your truth - search for it on your own. Or, you could continue to merrily skip down the path while hoping no one hands you the dixie-cup of Kool-aid.

Remember, I am an "OC .NET GURU", while you are simply a "Sr. Member". Wisdom does not come cheap.
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« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2005, 11:31:32 PM »

But why bother? I have no need to try to convince anyone. I was simply stating my belief. If you want to know your truth - search for it on your own.
Oh, so it was just "your truth"? I guess I must have got a bit confused when you presented it as objective reality and gave me no choice but to believe it. I have a name for these, they're called "TomS-facts".

Or, you could continue to merrily skip down the path while hoping no one hands you the dixie-cup of Kool-aid.
You mean, like non-existent survey results? Wink

Remember, I am an "OC .NET GURU", while you are simply a "Sr. Member". Wisdom does not come cheap.
As far as I know, this is just based on how many posts we write.....so it could just be a reflection of who is the biggest windbag. Wink
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« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2005, 03:45:22 AM »

Quote
Wisdom does not come cheap.

Nor apparently does being able to say whatever one pleases without providing any supporting evidence. 

As for the the GOA being Greek, that is dabatable.  The practice of the Church of greece is far different from the GOA as are other diaspora communities (Western Europe and Australia). 
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« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2005, 10:11:25 AM »

And here's an interesting little tidbit:
If the GOA of America "doesn't promote" the theologumen of the Toll Houses, why is the Annunciation GOA Church in Ohio (which also provides the "Orthodox Word Podcasts") selling Fr. Seraphim Rose's book "The Soul After Death" on their website?
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« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2005, 10:36:54 AM »

Oh, so it was just "your truth"? I guess I must have got a bit confused when you presented it as objective reality and gave me no choice but to believe it.

You ALWAYS have a choice! But, sometimes we just choose the ones that are easier.

You mean, like non-existent survey results? Wink

Sure there was a survey result. But I didn't say how large the sample was, did I?

As far as I know, this is just based on how many posts we write.....so it could just be a reflection of who is the biggest windbag. Wink

Sometimes that is true. However, in my instance a formal ceremony was held and I was crowned king GURU. Sorry you missed it.

And here's an interesting little tidbit:
If the GOA of America "doesn't promote" the theologumen of the Toll Houses, why is the Annunciation GOA Church in Ohio (which also provides the "Orthodox Word Podcasts") selling Fr. Seraphim Rose's book "The Soul After Death" on their website?

Cause it's a "MYSTERY!"ÂÂ  Cheesy

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« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2005, 10:42:21 AM »

Cause it's a "MYSTERY!"ÂÂ  Cheesy

 Cheesy LOL
C'mon Tom, you can do better than that! How about: "In the interest of open discussion about a theologumen which the GOA rejects......."
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« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2005, 10:52:40 AM »

Cheesy LOL
C'mon Tom, you can do better than that! How about: "In the interest of open discussion about a theologumen which the GOA rejects......."

No, No, No - we are Eastern Orthodox - it'a SUPPOSED to be a mystery  Wink
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« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2005, 11:09:15 AM »

No, No, No - we are Eastern Orthodox - it'a SUPPOSED to be a mysteryÂÂ  Wink


I was trying to stop you from painting yourself in a corner here....
"Mysterion" ("Mystery") refers to a sacred truth which is known only to the initiated. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mystery
You will keep rejecting the hand stretched out to save you! Wink
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« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2005, 11:14:52 AM »

I was trying to stop you from painting yourself in a corner here....
"Mysterion" ("Mystery") refers to a sacred truth which is known only to the initiated. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mystery

Exactly. "Toll Houses" are not a "sacred truth". Otherwise the Church would be in agreement on the issue - and we both agree that it is not.

You will keep rejecting the hand stretched out to save you! Wink

I don't really think that I am. I believe that I accept the "core" teachings of the Church. But many that used to be "core" are not anymore.


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« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2005, 11:22:59 AM »

Sometimes that is true. However, in my instance a formal ceremony was held and I was crowned king GURU. Sorry you missed it.

Oh, man!  There must have been another coronation just now!  He's no longer a mere GURU...he's the BIG KAHUNA!

Linus7, move over...
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« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2005, 11:25:21 AM »

Just out of curiosity, was anyone else scared by Orthodoxy in general before you became Orthodox?

Yeah. The idea of no eternal security got to me for a while.  Got over it, though.
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« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2005, 11:28:18 AM »

Oh, man!ÂÂ  There must have been another coronation just now!ÂÂ  He's no longer a mere GURU...he's the BIG KAHUNA!

Linus7, move over...

Wooooo Hoooooo!!!

Main Entry: ka·hu·na
Pronunciation: k&-'hü-n&
Function: noun
Etymology: Hawaiian

: a Hawaiian witch doctor

(Might want to rethink this designation)

You could always just creat a special one for me called "The Big Dumbass"   Cheesy
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« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2005, 11:30:40 AM »

Yeah. The idea of no eternal security got to me for a while.ÂÂ  Got over it, though.

Really? This is one that made PERFECT sense to me. The whole OSAS is like 180 degrees from Luke 8.
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« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2005, 11:41:40 AM »

Really? This is one that made PERFECT sense to me. The whole OSAS is like 180 degrees from Luke 8.

Yeah, I know, but try turning your back on it after 20 years of feeling safe...many times there's a difference between what we know and what we feel.
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« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2005, 11:50:17 AM »

Yeah, I know, but try turning your back on it after 20 years of feeling safe...many times there's a difference between what we know and what we feel.

Word!
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« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2005, 12:55:52 PM »

Yeah. The idea of no eternal security got to me for a while.ÂÂ  Got over it, though.

I have heard this notion of eternal security for an individual a few times, yet I never acutally directly encountered it within protestantism, and I was a staunch calvinist before I became Orthodox. According to calvinist soteriology, salvation is assured for the elect. Who are the Elect? Those Chosen by God. How do we here on earth know who the elect are? They are the ones who persevere until the end. So while calvinist soteriology maintains the concept of the eternal security of the elect from an academic point of view, in regard to the individual, the wisdom of Solon, 'In truth, I count no man happy until his death, for no man can know what the gods may have in store for him,' still applies; for, obviously, if one did not persevere until the end, he was not numbered amongst the 'elect.'

Now while Calvinistic theology may have false presuppositions, and hence be bad theology, it is, at least, a logical and consistant system of thought. I am quite curious about the theological foundation of the concept of eternal security of an individual, even in the event of apostasy or heresy. Who was the person who developed this variation on Calvinist theology? What were the first theological works published along that advocated this variation? When were they published? And what are the philosophical and soteriological axiomatic presuppositions? While I have always been quite familiar with calvinistic thought, in my many readings on the subject from the past 500 years, I have not actually seen this variation, and while I've heard of it, never in the context of a serious theological work.
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« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2005, 04:26:54 PM »

UPDATE:
So, yesterday I talked to the priest from my old Episcopal Church.  It didn't go as well as the meeting with the Christian Education Director did.  I was really quite confused about what the priest actually thought of it all.  He said that he thought it was great that I was converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and that I probably need "an authoratative and spiritually rich tradition like Eastern Orthodoxy". He was VERY familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy, and said that he himself had been to many Orthodox services and loved the faith and traditions of the church.  He then started talking about how the Episcopal Church is spiritually bankrupt and how there is nothing left in the Episcopal Church of today, and how our diocese is very hostile towards him because he is "too conservative".  In fact, he told me that out of the 150 priests in the diocese, only three believe in the bodily ressurection of Jesus Christ.  He also called the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Olympia a pig and a coward(and with what he told me about the bishop, I'd say he was kind in calling the guy a pig) and essentially said he is leading people into hell.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Then I asked him why he stayed if he believed all that, and he basically said it was because he needs to support his family(he called them "the golden handcuffs", lol).  So in a sense, it seemed he was envious that I was converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and wished he could do the same, but of course he didn't say it that explicitly.  Sounds like he's supportive so far, right? Well, then he started talking about how messed up MY life is, and how my family is disfunctional, and how most familes don't scream at each other, how most kids don't grow up with sisters who are drug addicts and who beat the crap out of them when they are high on meth.  Which is true, but he said a lot of things about my parents that just aren't true and were really really mean.  So then he started saying that he thinks the only reason I am becoming Orthodox is that I have no anchor in my life and that I feel like nobody loves me and that I don't want to think for myself....Ya....suuuuuuure....So now that all is said and done, I am happier than ever to be leaving that awful church and joining Christ's one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
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« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2005, 07:11:28 PM »

he basically said it was because he needs to support his family(he called them "the golden handcuffs", lol).ÂÂ  So in a sense, it seemed he was envious that I was converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and wished he could do the same, but of course he didn't say it that explicitly.ÂÂ  Sounds like he's supportive so far, right? Well, then he started talking about how messed up MY life is, and how my family is disfunctional,

Sounds to me like a bad case of sour grapes: "If I won't be free to live according to the Truth that I recognise, then no one else can!"
And what difference does it make how dysfunctional a family is? St. Phanourious was the illegitimate son of a prostitute. St. Markella was murdered by her father as she escaped from his attempt to commit incest with her. St. Barbara's father killed her for not marrying according to his wishes....the list goes on. We can have the most dysfunctional family in the world and yet still live according to the Truth and become a Saint.
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« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2005, 09:38:47 PM »

Who was the person who developed this variation on Calvinist theology? What were the first theological works published along that advocated this variation? When were they published? And what are the philosophical and soteriological axiomatic presuppositions? While I have always been quite familiar with calvinistic thought, in my many readings on the subject from the past 500 years, I have not actually seen this variation, and while I've heard of it, never in the context of a serious theological work.

Couldn't tell you.  And you're right, it's definitely not logically (or theologically) consistent.  They are adamant that man MUST choose to follow Christ, that God will NOT override man's free will.  Nevertheless, they are ALSO adamant that no sin of man's is sufficient to override the saving power God exhibits once man has sufficiently professed his faith in Christ.  So we choose to get in, and once we do that, if we REALLY did it, we'll never choose to get out, 'cause God will take care of that.  He'll also take care of our sanctification, as if we REALLY chose Christ, He'll make it to where we'll WANT to serve Him...

Like you said...not feasible.  But attractive...and very "drive-through American"-ish...

So, yesterday I talked to the priest from my old Episcopal Church.  It didn't go as well as the meeting with the Christian Education Director did....

I'll say.  Man, prayers for that guy.  Sounds like he's in a bad place and is not at all dealing with it well.  Welcome to your journey home, brother.
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« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2005, 09:30:37 PM »

Quote
Man, prayers for that guy.ÂÂ  Sounds like he's in a bad place and is not at all dealing with it well.ÂÂ  Welcome to your journey home, brother.
Quote
Sounds to me like a bad case of sour grapes: "If I won't be free to live according to the Truth that I recognise, then no one else can!"

Yes, well, I guess I feel bad for the Episcopal priest too, it's really a very bad sitaution for him.  If he truly cares about the souls of his congregation, then really he should hope that they will leave for more conservative denominations, but then if that happens, he's out of a job! But really, I can understand why he reacted as he did.  His parish is basically bleeding members like a hemopheliac with a stab wound!  And most of the people who have left are those really committed Christians, the types who keep a parish going in bad times.  ÃƒÆ’‚ In just the last two years,  a lot of the youth leaders have left, vestry members, Sunday School teachers, and just average parishioners too. Attendence is declining just from people quitting church altogether too, actually this year there won't be any senior high youth group.  There would have only been two people left who actually come to youth group, so they just quit having it.  Heck, even my leaving caused problems  since now there is nobody to teach the 5th and 6th grade Sunday School class and they have to train someone else to be head acolyte.  It's really a dying parish, and it's only going to get worse because the majority of people who are there on an average Sunday are over 50, and at the 8 o'clock service the youngest person there, besides the priest, is probably still over 65...
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