OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 17, 2014, 07:15:36 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How to leave  (Read 9070 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« on: August 13, 2005, 10:49:01 PM »

I want to quit going to my Episcopal Church permanently and convert to Orthodoxy. I have only been to two Divine Liturgies so far(going to my 3rd tomorrow!), but I have been reading about Orthodoxy since last October and decided that the Episcopal Church was not for me about a year and a half ago.ÂÂ  I know that I haven't been to the Orthodox Church very much, but the thing is, I am quite involved at the Episcopal Church and all the ministries will be starting up again soon, so basically, my choice is either leave within four weeks or unwillingly stay ANOTHER year in the Episcopal Church.ÂÂ  I did that last year, to sum it up in one word, it was awful.ÂÂ  So even if for some reason I decide not to be Orthodox, I know I won't stay Episcopalian.ÂÂ  Too much pain, and there is just nothing really there anymore.ÂÂ  But that is another story.ÂÂ  Anyways, what I need all y'alls help with is how to leave the Episcopal Church.ÂÂ  As I said before, I'm involed with some ministries, so it's not like I can just slip away unnoticed.ÂÂ  What is the best way to do this? E-mail? The phone? In person? I am worried that if I do it in person, they will think I am open to discussion about this choice, which I'm really not.ÂÂ  And I'm afraid what they'll say.ÂÂ  Contrary to what liberals would have you believe, "progressive Christians" are just as intolerant as many Fundamentalist Protestants.ÂÂ  I know many of y'all are converts, so what worked or didn't work for you when you left your old church?ÂÂ  ANY advice or stories about this type of thing would really help...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 10:51:23 PM by zebu » Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2005, 11:26:47 PM »

I think the best thing is to resign from any commitees you are on and then just start attending the Orthodox Church and explain it to people who ask when they run in to you at the grocery store and immediately to any close friends, maybe telling your priest why you are leaving as well.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2005, 11:45:43 PM »

As I said before, I'm involed with some ministries, so it's not like I can just slip away unnoticed.  What is the best way to do this?...I know many of y'all are converts, so what worked or didn't work for you when you left your old church?

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6865.msg90319#msg90319 date=1123990007]
I think the best thing is to resign from any commitees you are on and then just start attending the Orthodox Church and explain it to people who ask when they run in to you at the grocery store and immediately to any close friends, maybe telling your priest why you are leaving as well.[/quote]

Definitely tell your priest; you owe him that much as he is your current spiritual father.  Also, be prepared to give an answer as to why you're leaving.  Make it short and sweet; avoid too many details and be sure to keep it about what you see in Orthodoxy, not what you don't see in your current confession.

I was a Southern Baptist who was the music minister in our congregation.  I was also the church's secretary for a while, and I taught a Spanish-language Sunday School class along with an ESL class during the week.  I sat down with my pastor and told him I couldn't stay here because I had realized I believed what the Orthodox Church was teaching and that I couldn't stay on staff at Parkview Baptist and be honest with myself and those in the congregation at the same time.  I thanked him for all the opportunities he had given me and told him I prayed that God would continue to bless him and the congregation.  He, in turn, asked if I was sure that I had had a salvation experience.  I thought to myself, "well, I was baptized when I was nine, so that's as good a start as I can think of," so I said, "Yes, I'm sure," and left it at that, knowing that that was not the time to go into the fact that I now believed that that salvation could be lost.  I left it on a good note and never looked back.

Same story for the non-denominational Christian summer camp at which I was a counselor.  That place, in many ways, was as hard to leave behind (if not more so) than Iglesia Bautista Parkview.

Prayers for you on this difficult step.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
donkeyhotay
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 106

"God, Who provides for all, will not desert us"


« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2005, 11:56:10 PM »

Zebu,

I am a convert from Protestantism.  I also spent some time in the Episcopal Church. These things can be difficult.  Almost as difficult as breaking up with someone.  This is because most people feel their faith rather deeply, and they see a rejection of their faith as a rejection of them.  They take it personally.

Have you considered writing a letter?  I mean an old-fashioned, snail-mail, paper letter.  The advantages of writing what you need to say is that you can really think about what you want to convey and get it all out without any interruptions, or other difficulties involved in a face-to-face encounter.  A letter is better than email because email can seem very impersonal.
Logged

A dog is better than I am, for he has love and does not judge.
-Abba Xanthias
year2027
Banned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 89


« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 12:21:11 AM »

God first and last

Beloved zebu

God bless your heart

I think it better if you can to leave the church you are leaving and still love the people as friends

I left the First Christian Church years ago but I still Email the church from time to time and say to all I see part of it  I may even visit a Sunday every year or so

I left the Way Ministry which I believe is a cult but I am still praying for the ones in and have visit the ones I could and I still write them

I left a few off shots of The Way too but I still say Hi if I see them

I guess I visit many churches over the years my dad was raised in the Orthodox church and my mother in the First Christian Church of Glendale

So I been water batize as a baby in the Orthodox Church and water batize in the First Christian Church then later I was Batize with fire from the holy spirit

So I say leave with love in your heart for were you were and love in your heart for were you are going

with Godly love and a holy Godly kiss blowing your way Roy
Logged

NULL
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2005, 12:26:08 AM »

Is your priest a member of Forward in Faith or other reasserting organisations? If so, he'll probably be thrilled and more than a little envious that you are leaving the sinking ship of ECUSA and headed somewhere with disciple and sincerity.
Logged
S_N_Bulgakov
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 89



« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 02:49:27 AM »

Zebu,

What Pedro said!

Quote
Jeg liker å skrive på norsk førdi ingen forstår!

Uhm,.. some of us,.. who are in the habit of frequenting Norway and Sweden do understand! Wink It also helps to have a sister who is fluent in Norsk (Bokmal). I can't write Norwegian symbols since my lap-top doesn't have a Norwegian keyboard (I have one elsewhere tho) and I don't know the codes for the symbols (and I'm lazy lol ).

S_N_B
Logged

For scripture says, God is seated where He is known  (Pr 11 :16) ; and thus the pure nous is said to be a throne of God.

[Evagrios the Solitary, Peri Logismoi 41
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2005, 10:09:17 AM »

Is your priest a member of Forward in Faith or other reasserting organisations? If so, he'll probably be thrilled and more than a little envious that you are leaving the sinking ship of ECUSA and headed somewhere with disciple and sincerity.

More likely he'll be banging his head on the wall at the lost of another faithful member. But somehow I don't think that's the situation here.

I largely agree with Pedro: you have an obligation to tell your priest the truth.
Logged
greatanthony
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 5


« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2005, 10:07:07 AM »

Hi Zebu, Peace to you,

I know an Orthodox preist who was an Anglican preist before converting to Orthodoxy. While he was still in the Anglican church he started teaching according to the teachings of the early Eastern Fathers and Orthodox teachers. His Bishop one day came and kicked him out! Defrocked him on the spot because he said he was too "Orthodox".

But that's a special case I guess. I suppose the Christian thing to do would be to gently go face to face and explain to those concerned what you are thinking and try to leave them in in a peaceful way. Hopeful they wouldn't try to argue or convince you otherwise, but they might. I guess we can't always avoid conflict in this fallen world, and I can think of many Christian martyrs who had more than a disagreement with those of their former faiths. Good luck to you. I hope it works out. Pray for guidance and direction.

Patrick Anthony.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2005, 12:35:39 PM »

Hi Zebu, Peace to you,

I know an Orthodox preist who was an Anglican preist before converting to Orthodoxy. While he was still in the Anglican church he started teaching according to the teachings of the early Eastern Fathers and Orthodox teachers. His Bishop one day came and kicked him out! Defrocked him on the spot because he said he was too "Orthodox".

But that's a special case I guess. I suppose the Christian thing to do would be to gently go face to face and explain to those concerned what you are thinking and try to leave them in in a peaceful way. Hopeful they wouldn't try to argue or convince you otherwise, but they might. I guess we can't always avoid conflict in this fallen world, and I can think of many Christian martyrs who had more than a disagreement with those of their former faiths. Good luck to you. I hope it works out. Pray for guidance and direction.

Patrick Anthony.

You know, I didn't know the ECUS still had that in them; I had always taken Bishop Spong as evidence that the procedure to defrock someone had been lost, and they were simply unable to do it anymore...lol; I guess when they come across a conservative these procedures are magically found.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Armando
Dead among the living
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 187

I gave up dreaming a long time ago...


« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2005, 12:40:36 PM »

I know how it feels... I still remember hearing the priest that baptised my mum Eastern Orthodox, that he found out that I am attending the Catholic mass (the RC church is very, very close to the Orthodox church of St. Titus in Iraklio).
Logged

Ten years have passed, the girl I loved
is now a woman, but I am still a child...
-Sad-ending fairytale, Miltos Paschalidis
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2005, 12:43:30 PM »

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don’t need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don’t need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free
Logged
jlerms
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 826


O sweet Jesus, cleanse my soul.


« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2005, 12:55:43 PM »

 Grin  TomS,

I guess this works if you want to call it "Fifty ways to leave your Church"! 
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 12:31:47 AM »

You know, I didn't know the ECUS still had that in them; I had always taken Bishop Spong as evidence that the procedure to defrock someone had been lost, and they were simply unable to do it anymore...lol; I guess when they come across a conservative these procedures are magically found.

You don't "defrock" a bishop; you "depose" them. And it is monumentally difficult to do so, which is why nobody is going to bother applying it to a retired bishop. Now, back when Spong was bishop, he had his assistant bishop (Righter) ordain Robert WIlliams (the gay priest), so it was Righter who was tried for that.

THe only bishop who was deposed of late was Jones of Montana, for adultery.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 12:32:44 AM »

I know an Orthodox preist who was an Anglican preist before converting to Orthodoxy. While he was still in the Anglican church he started teaching according to the teachings of the early Eastern Fathers and Orthodox teachers. His Bishop one day came and kicked him out! Defrocked him on the spot because he said he was too "Orthodox".

Names please.
Logged
Tallitot
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,658



WWW
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2005, 01:43:00 AM »

Zebu, I know how you feel. I was, up until last January, a very active Episcopalian. I was a Layreader, a Lay Eucharistic Minister (I conducted services in the absence of a priest) and would conduct a monthly Reserved Sacrament Communion at a local nursing home, served on the altar guild, worship committee, was an oblate of an Anglican religious order and having serious discussions w/ my rector re: the Diaconate.

As I found myself drawn to Orthodoxy, I had a couple of discussions w/ my rector. I also cut back drastically on the amount of activities I was involved in. When I made a decision to become a catechumen, I sent an email to everyone I worked w/ in various committees and ministries explaining that after much prayer, discernment and disscusion, I had decided to join the Orthodox Church.

Since my chrismation, I've only been in contact w/ 3 members of my former parish. Thier reactions have been:
1. "It seems like a natural fit for you"
2. "You can't go wrong, after all Orhtodoxy has preserved the original Faith"
3. "Orthodox worship is probably closer to the worship of the early church then any other"

Even my former rector said that Orthodoxy would be her choice, if they would allow for women to be ordained!
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 11:25:09 PM »

More likely he'll be banging his head on the wall at the lost of another faithful member. But somehow I don't think that's the situation here.

No way. Most conservative Anglicans have already told their flocks that ECUSA is not an option anymore, and that one of the continuing churches, Rome, or Orthodoxy is where they should be.
Logged
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,072



« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2005, 12:16:20 AM »

You should start communicating with the Orthodox Priest.  Follow what he tells you to do. 
Logged

philoxenia
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2005, 01:15:53 AM »

This is my first posting to the list. A dear friend converted to Orthodoxy a number of years ago, and my advice to her was to complete her commitments to the Parish,
to tell no one, and when all was done to have a friendly chat with the Rector to thank him for his pastoral welcome and guidance and to ask his blessing for the new
path to which the Holy Spirit was calling her. She did this and no feathers were ruffled in the process. She had, after all, been greatly nurtured in the Anglican tradition
and it was now time for her to move on. She received the Rector's blessing to do exactly that.

My advice to tell no one was to avert the inevitable dialogue which assumes that one renounces as one leaves. My advice is to renounce no one, but to love those you
leave and wish them well in the discernment of God's will for them; but to also be unafraid to move on and not look back, for God's will will for you is now something
other than what it was.

I will be baptized into the Orthodox tradition (I did not originate in a Trinitarian tradition), on November 9, 2005, at a Byzantine Monastery in California. I loved the Anglo-
Catholic parish from which I came. I was on Vestry, served more masses than I could count and was Senior Warden, confidant to the Rector; but I knew that I was
called to the Orthodox tradition, and I also knew I had to answer that call and allow myself to be transformed accoring to God's will. I did as I had instructed my friend,
now reposed, and I renounced no one. I love the Episcopal Church, and I pray that their discernment for God's will for them will be fulfilled. It is not for me to make any
judgements, only to love and to be open to what God calls me to do.

I pray that you will not look back, but that you will look forward to what God is obviously calling you to. Don't yield to the controversies and judgements of the converts
on this list; love those whom you have left but do not separate yourself. God has called us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Philoxenia (soon to be Nektarios), pray for me a sinner and a beginner
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 07:16:14 AM by philoxenia » Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2005, 01:29:42 AM »

Quote
soon to be Nektarios

Δοξα τω Θεω! Glory to God!

And BTW you picked a wonderful saint, couldn't think of a better one myself. 
Logged
donkeyhotay
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 106

"God, Who provides for all, will not desert us"


« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2005, 09:39:40 PM »

Quote
Even my former rector said that Orthodoxy would be her choice, if they would allow for women to be ordained!

...and if they ordained gays; and if they blessed same-sex marriages; and if....

Sounds like a typically Episcopalian thing to say.
Logged

A dog is better than I am, for he has love and does not judge.
-Abba Xanthias
Mo the Ethio
Proud Capitalist
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Posts: 453



« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 11:08:18 PM »

Quote from Keble: "You don`t" defrock" a bishop; you "depose them"

      Man , you are a freakin` Snob! And this goes for all you other posters who insist on proper terms and proper english: You knew what he meant so, LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!! BUMBACLOT BWOY YU!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote from Keble " Names please"

      Again...you have such a snobby tone about you . I bet you used to get beat up a lot as a child.
  Keble...my brother Anthony has no obilgations to reveal names to you . You think he`s going to give out that info to a Protestant? The person he is talking about happens to be my priest and what Anthony says is true. That`s it .That`s all you need to know.
  Go ahead , say something about my sentence structure....I dare you.
Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2005, 11:30:53 PM »

No way. Most conservative Anglicans have already told their flocks that ECUSA is not an option anymore, and that one of the continuing churches, Rome, or Orthodoxy is where they should be.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Exactly who told you this?
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 11:42:12 PM »

Quote from Keble: "You don`t" defrock" a bishop; you "depose them"

      Man , you are a freakin` Snob! And this goes for all you other posters who insist on proper terms and proper english: You knew what he meant so, LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!! BUMBACLOT BWOY YU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I did, and maybe I didn't. Either way I'm confident that he didn't (and for that matter maybe still doesn't) know what the difference entails. It's trivial for a bishop to defrock a priest. Unlike in Orthodoxy, you can't create an instant schism between two bishops with the same ease. Getting rid of a bad bishop is HARD.

Quote
Quote from Keble " Names please"

      Again...you have such a snobby tone about you . I bet you used to get beat up a lot as a child.

Love it or leave it, that's what I say.

Quote
Keble...my brother Anthony has no obilgations to reveal names to you . You think he`s going to give out that info to a Protestant? The person he is talking about happens to be my priest and what Anthony says is true. That`s it .That`s all you need to know.

Says you. I'm under no obligation to take your obnoxiously revealed word. Name the priest, and name the bishop. Until then, it's just an empty allegation. ANd about me being a Protestant: If you can't convince me, you can't convert me. And right now what I read is that you don't care if you convert me, that you've as much as consigned me to Hell.

Quote
Go ahead , say something about my sentence structure....I dare you.

OK, I will. You should have said, "You knew what he meant, so LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 11:45:13 PM by Keble » Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2005, 12:54:03 AM »

I still find it curious that a Protestant lurks around an Orthodox convert board and is allowed to harshly criticize Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups. 
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2005, 08:27:00 AM »

I still find it curious that a Protestant lurks around an Orthodox convert board and is allowed to harshly criticize Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups. 

It is OK that you find my presence here curious. My permission to criticize them arises from the thus far unfounded allegations they make. Membership in Orthodoxy isn't a blank check to cast aspersions on others. But you were taught that in church-- right?

People are saying things that I don't find very credible. Why would someone who is a member of an organization committed to an orthodox Anglicanism encourage its members to vacate that orthodoxy by fleeing? It's illogical. Why should I believe what is now nothing more than a traveller's tale about the actions of a bishop? I follow the news in ECUSA and I think I would have heard of such a thing if it happened. Orthodoxy being the truth means that Orthodox are obliged to tell the truth and to submit to having their tales examined, and to abandon those tales if they don't pan out.
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,440



« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2005, 09:04:13 AM »

To ask for some kind of corroboration is "harsh"?ÂÂ  To disagree with someone's assertion about one's own Church is to "criticize"?ÂÂ  

I submit that if the table was turned, and such remarks were made about EO by Anglicans or an unsubstantiated statement about a "former EO priest who became Anglican" were made, that there would be some kind ofÂÂ  vigourous objection and request for supporting information.

Ebor

« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 09:04:58 AM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,440



« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2005, 09:07:58 AM »

Crucifer,

You handled things well, it seems to me.  Smiley

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 11:01:41 AM »

Quote from Keble: "You don`t" defrock" a bishop; you "depose them"

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Man , you are a freakin` Snob! And this goes for all you other posters who insist on proper terms and proper english: You knew what he meant so, LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!! BUMBACLOT BWOY YU!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote from Keble " Names please"

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Again...you have such a snobby tone about you . I bet you used to get beat up a lot as a child.
ÂÂ  Keble...my brother Anthony has no obilgations to reveal names to you . You think he`s going to give out that info to a Protestant? The person he is talking about happens to be my priest and what Anthony says is true. That`s it .That`s all you need to know.
ÂÂ  Go ahead , say something about my sentence structure....I dare you.

1) Keble's post was pedantic in tone so I can see why you are upset
2) That being said, it's not too much to expect people to use correct English; after all, the mode of communication is often as important as the message
3) Please don't respond to Keble with such personal attacks; if he angered you that much perhaps a private message would be a better way for you to express that.

Anastasios
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 11:09:06 AM by Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 11:05:00 AM »

I still find it curious that a Protestant lurks around an Orthodox convert board and is allowed to harshly criticize Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups.ÂÂ  

Part of me finds it curious that he is still interested in discussing things with us when it seems that he has no interest in becoming Orthodox but then again I still enjoy chatting on the Catholic message boards for the sake of discussion.  At the same time I don't think it's curious that we let him stay given that this is a discussion forum and it is also not an official representative of Orthodoxy (how could it be? it's a website!).ÂÂ  If we stifle debate, things will get boring fast.ÂÂ  Besides, if Orthodoxy is true (which I certainly believe it is!) then what do we have to worry about??ÂÂ  Also, sometimes it helps to have an outside party challenge us; it helps us refine our arguments.

Anastasios
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 11:05:37 AM by Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,440



« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2005, 11:20:43 AM »

2) That being said, it's not too much to expect people to use correct English; after all, the mode of communication is often as important as the message
Anastasios

Somehow, using "improper terms" for things would lead to confusion and not getting one's ideas across, it seems to me.  Since all we can see here are the words, and not the other person, what we write and how we write it carefully is, I think, very important.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2005, 12:15:49 PM »

1) Keble's post was pedantic in tone so I can see why you are upset

I have to wonder how any Orthodox forum would survive were pedantry outlawed!  Grin Wink
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2005, 01:04:42 PM »

Quote
Membership in Orthodoxy isn't a blank check to cast aspersions on others. But you were taught that in church-- right?

Just because you are Professor W doesn't mean you are intellectually supior either to everyone else, nor give you the right to speak down to other people.  As to Orthodoxy not being a blank check to cast aspersions, I would agree.  But I never said you didn't have that right.  I simply said it was curious that you are here, expressing doutb about you having a positive agenda in your continued presence here. 
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2005, 02:34:27 PM »

Just because you are Professor W doesn't mean you are intellectually supior either to everyone else, nor give you the right to speak down to other people.

Since you are speaking down to me now, where does that put us?

Intellectual superiority can be taken as manifested, and ignored if not. As far as being informed about ECUSA: I keep track of these things, and I not only know where to find the Constitutions and Canons, I've read them. This does give me the right to speak in a professorial tone about their contents, thankyouverymuch, especially when people who it appears haven't read them dare to tell me what they say.

Quote
ÂÂ  As to Orthodoxy not being a blank check to cast aspersions, I would agree.ÂÂ  But I never said you didn't have that right.ÂÂ  I simply said it was curious that you are here, expressing doutb about you having a positive agenda in your continued presence here.ÂÂ  

Perhaps I am reading more into your words than I should, but it seems to me that your comment about criticizing "Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups" was meant to be understood that I criticized them because the converted. I have my opinions about that, but I've never discussed them here, and besides being inappropriate to the forum, they also would start a Vesuvian flame fest. But never mind that. You've now moved into arguing, by inference, that it's OK for Orthodox people to sit around telling untruths about other churches and in general indulging in the telling of tales without fear of being put to the test of truth. I don't just spend my time here correcting errors, but it is (IMHO) a positive to have those errors corrected.
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2005, 03:09:47 PM »

Quote
Since you are speaking down to me now, where does that put us?

Calling your tone for what it is is speaking down to you?ÂÂ  

Quote
Perhaps I am reading more into your words than I should, but it seems to me that your comment about criticizing "Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups" was meant to be understood that I criticized them because the converted. I have my opinions about that, but I've never discussed them here, and besides being inappropriate to the forum, they also would start a Vesuvian flame fest.

But the problem is that from the tone of past posts it does come across that you do have serious issues with people converting to Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  But I think in reality we would find we do agree on a lot more than it seems from our various postings.ÂÂ  I would agree it is not healthy to convert to Orthodoxy as a negative thing - i.e running from the liberalism that is attacking mainline protestantism (and the RCC as well).ÂÂ  People should convert to Orthodoxy because they want to embrace what Orthodoxy has to offer.ÂÂ  

Quote
You've now moved into arguing, by inference, that it's OK for Orthodox people to sit around telling untruths about other churches and in general indulging in the telling of tales without fear of being put to the test of truth.


No I don't think it is a good thing.ÂÂ  I think the example of Lot's wife is enough to prove that.ÂÂ  I don't really have any objection to the administrators making a board policy to the effect that people should not relentlessly bash other groups.ÂÂ  Afterall when I was still a moderator here I posted this http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6179.msg79909#msg79909 in response to an email from another poster.ÂÂ  

Quote
I don't just spend my time here correcting errors, but it is (IMHO) a positive to have those errors corrected.

And that is the crux of my concern - you spend your time her doing something.ÂÂ  You do have an agenda (we all do).ÂÂ  I'm only pointing out that Orthodox posters here should be cautious of your agenda.ÂÂ  

« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 03:51:02 PM by Silouan » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2005, 03:39:22 PM »

Perhaps I am reading more into your words than I should, but it seems to me that your comment about criticizing "Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups" was meant to be understood that I criticized them because the converted. I have my opinions about that, but I've never discussed them here, and besides being inappropriate to the forum, they also would start a Vesuvian flame fest. But never mind that. You've now moved into arguing, by inference, that it's OK for Orthodox people to sit around telling untruths about other churches and in general indulging in the telling of tales without fear of being put to the test of truth. I don't just spend my time here correcting errors, but it is (IMHO) a positive to have those errors corrected.

Sometime we should discuss the issue of Converts from Protestantism or Orthodoxy; as a former Calvinist I am certain that I would quite enjoy the discussion, which, rest assured, I would centre on ecclesiology. But then again, I even enjoyed our Discussion on the Virtues of the Particular Institution, save your refusal to actually debate the issue and try to defend the indefensible.

Concerning the distinction between 'deposing' and 'defrocking,' technically speaking the former refers to depriving one of a posistion while the latter refers to depriving one of a garb, originally a type of Monastic Habit but eventually it came to refer to the Cassock of an Anglican Clergyman, which is where the term 'defrock' came from. Thus, either word could technically be used in reference to a priest or a bishop as a depriving of clerical garb would be the act of removing them from their posistion. Deposed became more common for Bishops because they are clearly installed in a given see, but technically a Priest is installed in a given Parish or Monastery; however, since the established posistion of a priest is less defined than that of a bishop, it is clear why the more general term of 'defrocked' became more popular. And while there may be a distinction made in Anglican Canon Law, I am not an Anglican Canonist and have nominal concern for their conventions.

With that said, I did make an error in the wording of my initial statement during my rush to play on the irony of the referenced situation; a simple deposing or defrocking of Bishop Spong would not be adequate to demonstrate that the ECUS was even somewhat serious about Christianity, an Anathema, a complete separation from him and the forbiding of public prayer on his behalf, would be the minimum action necessary to demonstrate even the lest concern for the Christian Faith.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2005, 04:20:59 PM »

Calling your tone for what it is is speaking down to you?

No-- what you said was talking down to me, at least as much as anything I ever said in this thread. "Professor W"? Those are words of condescension, and they are your words.

Quote
But the problem is that from the tone of past posts it does come across that you do have serious issues with people converting to Orthodoxy.

That has nothing at all to do with this thread. I object to statements about actions and events in ECUSA which I don't believe are true. I think anyone has a right to expect more corroboration for these statements than what has been offered, but in my case we're talking, after all, about issues of immediate interest to me (and while I'm at it-- NOT of immediate interest to most Orthodox members of this group). I've never seen any news of someone being defrocked because they were "too Orthodox", and I read the sources in which news of such a defrocking would be expected to appear. I've already expressed my doubts about the FiF assertions.

Obviously I have a vested interest in seeing that Anglicans who are orthodox remain Anglicans. Nonetheless, I do not see how this figures in what, when all is said and done, are matters not of opinion nor of interests, but of simple fact. I believe that if the situation were reversed, your expressions of high dudgeon would greatly exceed what I have said here.
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2005, 04:41:13 PM »

OK!  Sooo...how...to...leave....

(Y'all, seriously, if you wanna do this, take it to PM's, all right?  Thanks.)
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
donkeyhotay
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 106

"God, Who provides for all, will not desert us"


« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 04:44:52 PM »

Quote
I've never seen any news of someone being defrocked because they were "too Orthodox", and I read the sources in which news of such a defrocking would be expected to appear.

Here's some:

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2849

Logged

A dog is better than I am, for he has love and does not judge.
-Abba Xanthias
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 05:26:24 PM »

I was not familiar with the Geromel case, because it has been overshadowed by the "Connecticut Six" antics (summary: bishop shows up at parish with locksmith and computer hacker). However, the details in the cases are essentially the same.

Fr. G. wasn't deposed/defrocked simply for being orthodox. The specific charge was violation of Canon IV.10 (Of Abandonment of the communion by a priest or deacon). This canon is specifically aimed at priests who join other denominations (typically RC, but also Orthodox) to prevent them from continue to practice as Anglicans. What is happening at the moment is that it is being used against priests in parishes which attempt to seek "alternative oversight" (that is, a bishop from a different diocese whose views are more theologically acceptable). In practice the system set up for doing so (DEPO) has been a failure. I haven't followed the details of how the process is supposed to work, but it has been clear that there are major jurisdictional and disciplinary issues involved and that the result tends to be a urge on the part of the parish to get away from the bishop. The interpreting of this as "abandonment of the communion" is hotly disputed, and in each case statements have been issued by groups of bishops that they do not recognize the judgements made by the deposing bishop.

And I don't accept them either; the abuse of the canon is obvious. That said, these are not simply cases of priests being defrocked for expressing orthodox views. They are the outcome (hopefully temporary) of power struggles between parishes and bishops. It should also be noted that these are new tactics, attempted (with the exception of Moyer, and I think in his case the action could be justified) only within the last month.
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 06:55:07 PM »

Quote
No-- what you said was talking down to me, at least as much as anything I ever said in this thread. "Professor W"? Those are words of condescension, and they are your words.

Well if you don't like Professor W, I can settle for Charlie. 

And I still find it curious that you do spend so much time here with your agenda being so obvious, and not many openly say anything.  Could there be more than meets the eye?


Logged
donkeyhotay
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 106

"God, Who provides for all, will not desert us"


« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2005, 10:28:39 AM »

Quote
That said, these are not simply cases of priests being defrocked for expressing orthodox views.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

Logged

A dog is better than I am, for he has love and does not judge.
-Abba Xanthias
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2005, 11:04:18 AM »

OK, then: if an Orthodox priest/parish made noises that they were going to leave their current jurisdiction and find another, more theologically acceptable bishop, what would happen?
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2005, 11:34:13 AM »

OK, then: if an Orthodox priest/parish made noises that they were going to leave their current jurisdiction and find another, more theologically acceptable bishop, what would happen?


I think Ben Lomond in 1998 shows what would happen.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,464


« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2005, 01:51:40 PM »

I think Ben Lomond in 1998 shows what would happen.

Anastasios

...which is an excellent example!

But that is also that case of a whole group/parish being waaaaaay to close knit and losing perspective (well, they didn't really have it to begin with).

I think there may be an author of a few Orthodox books who has now changed jurisdictions twice I heard from AOA -> OCA -> Bulgarians.  I hope he's not trying to be overly "correct" in praxis/mentality.  This is just speculation, so I don't want to say anything more...and I could be wrong too.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2005, 04:16:02 PM »

I think Ben Lomond in 1998 shows what would happen.

Well, what seems to have happened is that, modulo arguments over who got to keep the property, they succeeded. I say "seems" because I don't know the details of of the crisis and haven't found any particularly good source for such info.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,464


« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2005, 04:45:40 PM »

Well, what seems to have happened is that, modulo arguments over who got to keep the property, they succeeded. I say "seems" because I don't know the details of of the crisis and haven't found any particularly good source for such info.


Keble,
In the end, yes, but procedurally, they did everything all wrong, they had an improper understanding of obedience, and no, they lost the property dispute.  They also ended up in a different jurisdiction then they originally intended (JP rather than OCA).  Now, the Antiochian group (Sts. Peter & Paul) is only half the size as the slocc group and is saddled with a comparitvely opressing mortgage to pay off.  Kinda a lose-lose situation.  Fortunately, relations seem to finally be thawing.  From what I understand, the <30 crowd wants everyone to kiss and make up and the older crowd is more stubborn (in a strict forgiveness/corgial relations sense, not as in the parishes reuniting or anything).
Logged
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2005, 11:35:20 PM »

Sorry, I don't buy it. Exactly who told you this?


Read the conservative Anglican blogosphere. catholica.pontifications.net is a good resource, Rev Al Kimel left Anglicanism for Rome a couple of months ago, after he had been telling his parishioners for years to do the same.
Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,836



« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2005, 01:54:33 PM »

When my wife and I were in conflict about the Episcopal Church, we went to our local parish priest who said that he understood our quandary and noted that all Episcopalians would soon have to decide to stay in a modernist church that was evolving away from the Bible and the Teachings of Christ as understood by Anglicans for hundreds of years or return to either the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Churchs with their more BASIC patristic understandings and stands.  My wife and I chose to go the the Eastern Orthodox Church, and our Episcopal Priest gave us his blessing even writting a letter of introduction to the Orthodox Priest letting him know that we were honest and good Christians seeking to return home to the Orthodox Church.  It greatly helped us in making the acquaintance of the local Orthodox Pyrites and avoided those questions, I have heard others say they were told "You're not Greek (Russian, Ukrainian, Arabic, etc) Why would you want to become Orthodox?"

In Christ,
Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,464


« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2005, 02:45:27 PM »

Sorry, I don't buy it. Exactly who told you this?


AN anecdote (FWIW):
There is a small (rather conservative) ECUSA chapel in NorCal that is friends with a nearby OCA monaster. This ECUSA chapel is in a retreat center that has a bookstore with more Orthodox than non-Orthodox books.  I've been told that the priest would like to become Orthodox, but doesn't want to have to give up his pension.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2005, 04:46:59 PM »

Read the conservative Anglican blogosphere. catholica.pontifications.net is a good resource, Rev Al Kimel left Anglicanism for Rome a couple of months ago, after he had been telling his parishioners for years to do the same.

Oh, come on. Surely you are aware by now that Al Kimel is no longer an Anglican.

I follow anglo-doings through Kendal Harmon's titusonenine, which, with the waning of David Virtue's site, has become the standard source of links to Anglican happenings. Al's blog has always been dominated by sermons and expressions of personal opinion rather than news.

And then there is the Person of Alvin F Kimel himself... Folks, better go to DEFCON 4. I knew AL personally; he was my rector for something like a decade. He married me, and he baptized my first-born. He gave me communion on the order of five hundred times. When he and the other wrote the Baltimore Declaration, mine were among the hands that folded and stuffed envelopes to send it to every Episcopal cleric in the nation.

We he posted his Fly, You Fools article, I was greatly disturbed and annoyed. Annoyed, because the last thing I thought ECUSA needed was someone telling the orthodox to throw in the towel, and prematurely at that (the Windsor Report had been released within the week). Disturbed, because I found his advice deeply compromised by his position. A priest in one church has no business telling his charges to abandon it; if I had been Duncan (his bishop), he would have been inhibited that very day. As it was, I sent him an e-mail which (I thought) somewhat tentatively expressed my reservations at what he was saying. I got a condescending and dismissive reply, and I never really communicated with him on a personal basis again. It was just a matter of time before he forswore his old orders and headed off toward RC ordination. And anyway, there was no place to fly to. The RC churches around us are awful, except maybe the church on Arcola which was a hideous building but which might be OK if the priest I remember from years back were still there.

About a month later, he picked on me for complaining about the uses of infallibility. I largely turned away after that because I don't much care to read online sermons (of which he posted a lot) and because his Romophilia was obvious and irrelevant to my situation. And finally, in mid-May, he announced that he was converting, to become an RC priest. It hurt me. I wrote of his announcement as giving me "a sense of betrayal". SInce then his blog has become a cheering section for Roman triumphalism. It makes me sick to read it.

But dont let me stop you. Just don't suffer any delusion that you are getting some sort of Anglican account, because you haven't been-- not for at least a year. And of all the ways to leave, I hold Al''s way to have been among the worst.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 04:47:58 PM by Keble » Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2005, 08:48:57 PM »

One of our parishoners is an ex-Anglican.  He's probably one of the best things that happened to our little church.  He's from England and is an unbelievably efficient organizer.  I'm not saying that the two are necessarily linked.  Well.  Maybe. 

At any rate, he left Anglicanism because he disagrees with it, in both its conservative and liberal flavors.  I don't suggest anyone stop being an Anglican because they want to be more conservative but agree with all theology Anglican.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2005, 01:11:25 AM »

Quote
He's from England and is an unbelievably efficient organizer.  I'm not saying that the two are necessarily linked.  Well.  Maybe.

Then how does one explain Heathrow Airport if the traits are linked?  Besides being a nightmare, England is bloody expensive. 
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2005, 09:07:23 PM »

Because Heathrow has a lot of Irish working in it.   Grin
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2005, 11:21:41 PM »

My problem was all the non-Brits working there (I think Indians, some Arabs and some other Asians mostly).  When you have a foriegn accent, plus a british accent....well I just simply couldn't understand them.  I got some funny looks when I asked people if they spoke American.  I can almost say it was easier to communicate when I was in Germany and Greece.   
Logged
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2005, 08:04:54 PM »

So, I am really sorry that I have not replied to my own thread in so long, but my internet was not working.  So sorry.

But thank you all for your replies, they were helpful(I got to read 4 of them before the internet quit on me). And I can still use them since I have not completely told everyone who needs to be told.

So here is an update:
Last Sunday I went to the Episcopal Church and I told the Sunday School Director, and we didn't have much time to talk then.  So, we arranged to have coffee today, which we did.  We had a nice, long, two hour conversation that went pretty well. Basically, I told her what Orthodoxy teaches and answered her questions and told her what I didn't like about the Episcopal Church(though this was only because she asked me).  She actually is very supportive and shares many opinions with me in regards to the Episcopal Church.  She said that she wanted to talk to me because she wanted to know that I was converting to Orthodoxy because I wanted to get closer to God, not because I was rebelling or something.  She was actually really happy that I had decided to commit my life to God.  So actually it was quite nice, to know that she cared that much. We actually will have coffee again in a few weeks and I'll tell her how things are going at the Orthodox church.  She even wants to know when I'll be chrismated so that she can come see.  As for telling the priest, I haven't done that yet, though I have tried.  But everytime I try to talk to him, he is too busy.  Though that has pretty much been the story of my entire relationship with him, he's "too busy".  So I will try to tell him ASAP and the Christian Education Director has said that she won't say anything to him, though he'll know by next Sunday since she will tell my Sunday School class that I am converting to Orthodoxy.

Oh, and as for where my Episcopal priest stands doctrinally, I think he is middle-of-the road.  He isn't conservative, but he isn't a huge liberal either.  I am anticipating that he will be mildly opposed to my conversion and might try to talk me out of it.  He probably has experience with Orthodoxy too, since he lived in Alaska a long time and speaks fluent Russian(as well as Yup'ik, Inupiaq, German, and some biblical Greek)...

Things at the Orthodox Church are going great.  I have since started going to the Inquirer's class and I've talked to the priest a bit about where I'm coming from and how I want to become Orthodox, though we need to talk more.  Interestingly enough, the Orthodox priest at the church I go to is himself a convert from the Episcopal Church, as are many at that church.  It's a cool place. 

One thing I am mildly concerned about though is toll houses.  The priest in the Orthodox Church said that they are real and that most Orthodox believe in them and that all the Church Fathers believe in them.  And he recommended Seraphim Rose's book "Life After Death" as a good book to find out what the Orthodox church believes regarding what happens after we die.  I could be wrong, but I thought toll houses were not mainstream Orthodoxy and that most Orthodox consider "Life After Death" to have a lot of errors in it...Could someone clear this up?

Thanks!
Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2005, 10:22:31 PM »

One thing I am mildly concerned about though is toll houses.ÂÂ  The priest in the Orthodox Church said that they are real and that most Orthodox believe in them and that all the Church Fathers believe in them.ÂÂ  

This is incorrect. Most Orthodox Clergy reject the strict idea of "toll houses"
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2005, 10:32:34 PM »

There's an idea of some sort of trials of the soul after death, wherein the soul experiences some sort of "reaction," as it were, to its state at death once it's separated from its body.

Some Fathers wrote of this as toll houses the soul passes through as it ascends through the air; others (earlier Fathers like St. Irenaeus) wrote of an intermediate place of the dead wherein the righteous are purified in preparation for the Judgement and entrance into Heaven, while the unrighteous experience some torment as their unrepented-of sins condemn them.

Either way, it seems different metaphors are used to describe the period between the departure of the soul from the body and the General Resurrection of the Dead.  Your priest is right about the idea of a purgatorial trial after death, but incorrect in insisting that all or even most Orthodox take Fr. Seraphim at face value.  The Fathers are clear, however, that there is a trial of some sort, where the soul is brought into contact with its true state.

This, at least, is my understanding.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2005, 10:57:34 PM »

This is incorrect. Most Orthodox Clergy reject the strict idea of "toll houses"
Could you please cite your source of this statistic?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2005, 11:40:48 PM »

There's an idea of some sort of trials of the soul after death, wherein the soul experiences some sort of "reaction," as it were, to its state at death once it's separated from its body.

Some Fathers wrote of this as toll houses the soul passes through as it ascends through the air; others (earlier Fathers like St. Irenaeus) wrote of an intermediate place of the dead wherein the righteous are purified in preparation for the Judgement and entrance into Heaven, while the unrighteous experience some torment as their unrepented-of sins condemn them.

And some of our Fathers are Universalists; you are trying to make the Soteriology of the Antiochian School of Thought out to be the posistion of the Fathers, when both the Alexandrian and Cappadocian Schools of thought would have favoured a far more liberal view of salvation. But the concept of 'Toll Houses' as it is presented today would have probably even been a bit extreme and draconian for the Antiochian Fathers. Though we cannot say for certain what the 'patristic view' of soteriology was, we can certainly say that there was not unanimity on the subject.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2005, 12:00:56 AM »

One would think that the controversy inevitably engendered by bringing up the subject of "toll houses" is sufficient demonstration that they are not universally accepted in Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 09:40:35 AM by Keble » Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2005, 12:06:20 AM »

One would think that the controversy inevtiably engendered by bringing up the subject of "toll houses" is sufficient demonstration that they are not universally accepted in Orthodoxy.

Touché.  Cool 

Good point Keble.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2005, 12:11:55 AM »

One would think that the controversy inevtiably engendered by bringing up the subject of "toll houses" is sufficient demonstration that they are not universally accepted in Orthodoxy.

If we take this as the "source" of our statistics, then what do the recent posts about Blacks in New Orleans say about the Christian view on racism?  Forget 'netodoxy' Keble- too many nutters with too many agendas.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2005, 11:55:49 PM »

Could you please cite your source of this statistic?

GOA does not promote the teaching of Toll Houses
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 11:56:49 PM by TomS » Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2005, 06:58:00 PM »

Some in the GOA do not promote the teaching of tollhouses, that is.

IME the majority of GOA priests don't really delve into the issue so don't really support either side in the "debate."  There is a fairly small group that is radically anti-toll house.  Also among the philomonastic clergy of the GOA tollhouses are accepted, but IME are taught in primarily a pastoral rather than dogmatic context (i.e in confession the priest will suggest thinking of the toll houses to help avoid temptations). 

In the actual Greek Church the most widely respected opinion on the matter is Metr. Hierotheos Vlachos.
Logged
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2005, 09:09:24 PM »

Thanks again for your responses.  They really helped.  I guess I am the one who needs to rethink my position on toll houses as now that I think about it I really didn't know a lot about them and just made the rash judgement that they aren't real because, honestly, they scare the crap out of me.  But that is stupid of me, just because something scares me doesn't mean it isn't real and it definitely is not helpful to pretend they don't exist just because they scare me.  Heck, if I just ignored things that scared me, I would have stopped looking at Orthodoxy long ago.  Just out of curiosity, was anyone else scared by Orthodoxy in general before you became Orthodox?  Maybe that is just because of the liberal Episcopal background that I am coming from, where nobody has to do anything to be saved...

 
Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2005, 10:17:13 PM »

GOA does not promote the teaching of Toll Houses

That's not really a statistic now, is it TomS?
And the GOA of America doesn't "promote" weekday Vespers in it's parishes either- does this make it a practice not universally held to be Orthodox?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2005, 10:20:23 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2005, 10:42:51 PM »

That's not really a statistic now, is it TomS?
And the GOA of America doesn't "promote" weekday Vespers in it's parishes either- does this make it a practice not universally held to be Orthodox?

We all know about Statistics, don't we?

Re: Vespers. If the GOA does not think they are important, then they must not be. Because Greek IS Orthodoxy - all others are simply followers.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2005, 10:45:09 PM by TomS » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2005, 10:59:15 PM »

We all know about Statistics, don't we?

Re: Vespers. If the GOA does not think they are important, then they must not be. Because Greek IS Orthodoxy - all others are simply followers.

A fascinating thesis you have there....but I dare say you may lose points for plagiarism Wink
When do you intend to publish the full results of your survey of all Orthodox Clergy which shows that:
This is incorrect. Most Orthodox Clergy reject the strict idea of "toll houses"
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2005, 11:01:50 PM »

And could you explain the difference between the "strict idea" and "non-strict idea" of the toll houses, and how you worded this as a survey question?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2005, 11:20:19 PM »

And could you explain the difference between the "strict idea" and "non-strict idea" of the toll houses, and how you worded this as a survey question?

But why bother? I have no need to try to convince anyone. I was simply stating my belief. If you want to know your truth - search for it on your own. Or, you could continue to merrily skip down the path while hoping no one hands you the dixie-cup of Kool-aid.

Remember, I am an "OC .NET GURU", while you are simply a "Sr. Member". Wisdom does not come cheap.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2005, 11:23:35 PM by TomS » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2005, 11:31:32 PM »

But why bother? I have no need to try to convince anyone. I was simply stating my belief. If you want to know your truth - search for it on your own.
Oh, so it was just "your truth"? I guess I must have got a bit confused when you presented it as objective reality and gave me no choice but to believe it. I have a name for these, they're called "TomS-facts".

Or, you could continue to merrily skip down the path while hoping no one hands you the dixie-cup of Kool-aid.
You mean, like non-existent survey results? Wink

Remember, I am an "OC .NET GURU", while you are simply a "Sr. Member". Wisdom does not come cheap.
As far as I know, this is just based on how many posts we write.....so it could just be a reflection of who is the biggest windbag. Wink
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 12:04:39 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2005, 03:45:22 AM »

Quote
Wisdom does not come cheap.

Nor apparently does being able to say whatever one pleases without providing any supporting evidence. 

As for the the GOA being Greek, that is dabatable.  The practice of the Church of greece is far different from the GOA as are other diaspora communities (Western Europe and Australia). 
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2005, 10:11:25 AM »

And here's an interesting little tidbit:
If the GOA of America "doesn't promote" the theologumen of the Toll Houses, why is the Annunciation GOA Church in Ohio (which also provides the "Orthodox Word Podcasts") selling Fr. Seraphim Rose's book "The Soul After Death" on their website?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2005, 10:36:54 AM »

Oh, so it was just "your truth"? I guess I must have got a bit confused when you presented it as objective reality and gave me no choice but to believe it.

You ALWAYS have a choice! But, sometimes we just choose the ones that are easier.

You mean, like non-existent survey results? Wink

Sure there was a survey result. But I didn't say how large the sample was, did I?

As far as I know, this is just based on how many posts we write.....so it could just be a reflection of who is the biggest windbag. Wink

Sometimes that is true. However, in my instance a formal ceremony was held and I was crowned king GURU. Sorry you missed it.

And here's an interesting little tidbit:
If the GOA of America "doesn't promote" the theologumen of the Toll Houses, why is the Annunciation GOA Church in Ohio (which also provides the "Orthodox Word Podcasts") selling Fr. Seraphim Rose's book "The Soul After Death" on their website?

Cause it's a "MYSTERY!"ÂÂ  Cheesy

« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 10:41:59 AM by TomS » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2005, 10:42:21 AM »

Cause it's a "MYSTERY!"ÂÂ  Cheesy

 Cheesy LOL
C'mon Tom, you can do better than that! How about: "In the interest of open discussion about a theologumen which the GOA rejects......."
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2005, 10:52:40 AM »

Cheesy LOL
C'mon Tom, you can do better than that! How about: "In the interest of open discussion about a theologumen which the GOA rejects......."

No, No, No - we are Eastern Orthodox - it'a SUPPOSED to be a mystery  Wink
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2005, 11:09:15 AM »

No, No, No - we are Eastern Orthodox - it'a SUPPOSED to be a mysteryÂÂ  Wink


I was trying to stop you from painting yourself in a corner here....
"Mysterion" ("Mystery") refers to a sacred truth which is known only to the initiated. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mystery
You will keep rejecting the hand stretched out to save you! Wink
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2005, 11:14:52 AM »

I was trying to stop you from painting yourself in a corner here....
"Mysterion" ("Mystery") refers to a sacred truth which is known only to the initiated. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mystery

Exactly. "Toll Houses" are not a "sacred truth". Otherwise the Church would be in agreement on the issue - and we both agree that it is not.

You will keep rejecting the hand stretched out to save you! Wink

I don't really think that I am. I believe that I accept the "core" teachings of the Church. But many that used to be "core" are not anymore.


« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 11:17:08 AM by TomS » Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2005, 11:22:59 AM »

Sometimes that is true. However, in my instance a formal ceremony was held and I was crowned king GURU. Sorry you missed it.

Oh, man!  There must have been another coronation just now!  He's no longer a mere GURU...he's the BIG KAHUNA!

Linus7, move over...
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2005, 11:25:21 AM »

Just out of curiosity, was anyone else scared by Orthodoxy in general before you became Orthodox?

Yeah. The idea of no eternal security got to me for a while.  Got over it, though.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2005, 11:28:18 AM »

Oh, man!ÂÂ  There must have been another coronation just now!ÂÂ  He's no longer a mere GURU...he's the BIG KAHUNA!

Linus7, move over...

Wooooo Hoooooo!!!

Main Entry: ka·hu·na
Pronunciation: k&-'hü-n&
Function: noun
Etymology: Hawaiian

: a Hawaiian witch doctor

(Might want to rethink this designation)

You could always just creat a special one for me called "The Big Dumbass"   Cheesy
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2005, 11:30:40 AM »

Yeah. The idea of no eternal security got to me for a while.ÂÂ  Got over it, though.

Really? This is one that made PERFECT sense to me. The whole OSAS is like 180 degrees from Luke 8.
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2005, 11:41:40 AM »

Really? This is one that made PERFECT sense to me. The whole OSAS is like 180 degrees from Luke 8.

Yeah, I know, but try turning your back on it after 20 years of feeling safe...many times there's a difference between what we know and what we feel.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 11:42:03 AM by Pedro » Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2005, 11:50:17 AM »

Yeah, I know, but try turning your back on it after 20 years of feeling safe...many times there's a difference between what we know and what we feel.

Word!
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2005, 12:55:52 PM »

Yeah. The idea of no eternal security got to me for a while.ÂÂ  Got over it, though.

I have heard this notion of eternal security for an individual a few times, yet I never acutally directly encountered it within protestantism, and I was a staunch calvinist before I became Orthodox. According to calvinist soteriology, salvation is assured for the elect. Who are the Elect? Those Chosen by God. How do we here on earth know who the elect are? They are the ones who persevere until the end. So while calvinist soteriology maintains the concept of the eternal security of the elect from an academic point of view, in regard to the individual, the wisdom of Solon, 'In truth, I count no man happy until his death, for no man can know what the gods may have in store for him,' still applies; for, obviously, if one did not persevere until the end, he was not numbered amongst the 'elect.'

Now while Calvinistic theology may have false presuppositions, and hence be bad theology, it is, at least, a logical and consistant system of thought. I am quite curious about the theological foundation of the concept of eternal security of an individual, even in the event of apostasy or heresy. Who was the person who developed this variation on Calvinist theology? What were the first theological works published along that advocated this variation? When were they published? And what are the philosophical and soteriological axiomatic presuppositions? While I have always been quite familiar with calvinistic thought, in my many readings on the subject from the past 500 years, I have not actually seen this variation, and while I've heard of it, never in the context of a serious theological work.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2005, 04:26:54 PM »

UPDATE:
So, yesterday I talked to the priest from my old Episcopal Church.  It didn't go as well as the meeting with the Christian Education Director did.  I was really quite confused about what the priest actually thought of it all.  He said that he thought it was great that I was converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and that I probably need "an authoratative and spiritually rich tradition like Eastern Orthodoxy". He was VERY familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy, and said that he himself had been to many Orthodox services and loved the faith and traditions of the church.  He then started talking about how the Episcopal Church is spiritually bankrupt and how there is nothing left in the Episcopal Church of today, and how our diocese is very hostile towards him because he is "too conservative".  In fact, he told me that out of the 150 priests in the diocese, only three believe in the bodily ressurection of Jesus Christ.  He also called the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Olympia a pig and a coward(and with what he told me about the bishop, I'd say he was kind in calling the guy a pig) and essentially said he is leading people into hell.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Then I asked him why he stayed if he believed all that, and he basically said it was because he needs to support his family(he called them "the golden handcuffs", lol).  So in a sense, it seemed he was envious that I was converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and wished he could do the same, but of course he didn't say it that explicitly.  Sounds like he's supportive so far, right? Well, then he started talking about how messed up MY life is, and how my family is disfunctional, and how most familes don't scream at each other, how most kids don't grow up with sisters who are drug addicts and who beat the crap out of them when they are high on meth.  Which is true, but he said a lot of things about my parents that just aren't true and were really really mean.  So then he started saying that he thinks the only reason I am becoming Orthodox is that I have no anchor in my life and that I feel like nobody loves me and that I don't want to think for myself....Ya....suuuuuuure....So now that all is said and done, I am happier than ever to be leaving that awful church and joining Christ's one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 04:28:34 PM by zebu » Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2005, 07:11:28 PM »

he basically said it was because he needs to support his family(he called them "the golden handcuffs", lol).ÂÂ  So in a sense, it seemed he was envious that I was converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and wished he could do the same, but of course he didn't say it that explicitly.ÂÂ  Sounds like he's supportive so far, right? Well, then he started talking about how messed up MY life is, and how my family is disfunctional,

Sounds to me like a bad case of sour grapes: "If I won't be free to live according to the Truth that I recognise, then no one else can!"
And what difference does it make how dysfunctional a family is? St. Phanourious was the illegitimate son of a prostitute. St. Markella was murdered by her father as she escaped from his attempt to commit incest with her. St. Barbara's father killed her for not marrying according to his wishes....the list goes on. We can have the most dysfunctional family in the world and yet still live according to the Truth and become a Saint.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2005, 09:38:47 PM »

Who was the person who developed this variation on Calvinist theology? What were the first theological works published along that advocated this variation? When were they published? And what are the philosophical and soteriological axiomatic presuppositions? While I have always been quite familiar with calvinistic thought, in my many readings on the subject from the past 500 years, I have not actually seen this variation, and while I've heard of it, never in the context of a serious theological work.

Couldn't tell you.  And you're right, it's definitely not logically (or theologically) consistent.  They are adamant that man MUST choose to follow Christ, that God will NOT override man's free will.  Nevertheless, they are ALSO adamant that no sin of man's is sufficient to override the saving power God exhibits once man has sufficiently professed his faith in Christ.  So we choose to get in, and once we do that, if we REALLY did it, we'll never choose to get out, 'cause God will take care of that.  He'll also take care of our sanctification, as if we REALLY chose Christ, He'll make it to where we'll WANT to serve Him...

Like you said...not feasible.  But attractive...and very "drive-through American"-ish...

So, yesterday I talked to the priest from my old Episcopal Church.  It didn't go as well as the meeting with the Christian Education Director did....

I'll say.  Man, prayers for that guy.  Sounds like he's in a bad place and is not at all dealing with it well.  Welcome to your journey home, brother.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
zebu
Mot à ta mère!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 338

aimovoroi tourkoi!


« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2005, 09:30:37 PM »

Quote
Man, prayers for that guy.ÂÂ  Sounds like he's in a bad place and is not at all dealing with it well.ÂÂ  Welcome to your journey home, brother.
Quote
Sounds to me like a bad case of sour grapes: "If I won't be free to live according to the Truth that I recognise, then no one else can!"

Yes, well, I guess I feel bad for the Episcopal priest too, it's really a very bad sitaution for him.  If he truly cares about the souls of his congregation, then really he should hope that they will leave for more conservative denominations, but then if that happens, he's out of a job! But really, I can understand why he reacted as he did.  His parish is basically bleeding members like a hemopheliac with a stab wound!  And most of the people who have left are those really committed Christians, the types who keep a parish going in bad times.  ÃƒÆ’‚ In just the last two years,  a lot of the youth leaders have left, vestry members, Sunday School teachers, and just average parishioners too. Attendence is declining just from people quitting church altogether too, actually this year there won't be any senior high youth group.  There would have only been two people left who actually come to youth group, so they just quit having it.  Heck, even my leaving caused problems  since now there is nobody to teach the 5th and 6th grade Sunday School class and they have to train someone else to be head acolyte.  It's really a dying parish, and it's only going to get worse because the majority of people who are there on an average Sunday are over 50, and at the 8 o'clock service the youngest person there, besides the priest, is probably still over 65...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 09:32:35 PM by zebu » Logged

Жизнь прожить не поле перейти
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.235 seconds with 117 queries.