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zebu
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« on: August 13, 2005, 10:49:01 PM »

I want to quit going to my Episcopal Church permanently and convert to Orthodoxy. I have only been to two Divine Liturgies so far(going to my 3rd tomorrow!), but I have been reading about Orthodoxy since last October and decided that the Episcopal Church was not for me about a year and a half ago.ÂÂ  I know that I haven't been to the Orthodox Church very much, but the thing is, I am quite involved at the Episcopal Church and all the ministries will be starting up again soon, so basically, my choice is either leave within four weeks or unwillingly stay ANOTHER year in the Episcopal Church.ÂÂ  I did that last year, to sum it up in one word, it was awful.ÂÂ  So even if for some reason I decide not to be Orthodox, I know I won't stay Episcopalian.ÂÂ  Too much pain, and there is just nothing really there anymore.ÂÂ  But that is another story.ÂÂ  Anyways, what I need all y'alls help with is how to leave the Episcopal Church.ÂÂ  As I said before, I'm involed with some ministries, so it's not like I can just slip away unnoticed.ÂÂ  What is the best way to do this? E-mail? The phone? In person? I am worried that if I do it in person, they will think I am open to discussion about this choice, which I'm really not.ÂÂ  And I'm afraid what they'll say.ÂÂ  Contrary to what liberals would have you believe, "progressive Christians" are just as intolerant as many Fundamentalist Protestants.ÂÂ  I know many of y'all are converts, so what worked or didn't work for you when you left your old church?ÂÂ  ANY advice or stories about this type of thing would really help...
« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 10:51:23 PM by zebu » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2005, 11:26:47 PM »

I think the best thing is to resign from any commitees you are on and then just start attending the Orthodox Church and explain it to people who ask when they run in to you at the grocery store and immediately to any close friends, maybe telling your priest why you are leaving as well.
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2005, 11:45:43 PM »

As I said before, I'm involed with some ministries, so it's not like I can just slip away unnoticed.  What is the best way to do this?...I know many of y'all are converts, so what worked or didn't work for you when you left your old church?

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6865.msg90319#msg90319 date=1123990007]
I think the best thing is to resign from any commitees you are on and then just start attending the Orthodox Church and explain it to people who ask when they run in to you at the grocery store and immediately to any close friends, maybe telling your priest why you are leaving as well.[/quote]

Definitely tell your priest; you owe him that much as he is your current spiritual father.  Also, be prepared to give an answer as to why you're leaving.  Make it short and sweet; avoid too many details and be sure to keep it about what you see in Orthodoxy, not what you don't see in your current confession.

I was a Southern Baptist who was the music minister in our congregation.  I was also the church's secretary for a while, and I taught a Spanish-language Sunday School class along with an ESL class during the week.  I sat down with my pastor and told him I couldn't stay here because I had realized I believed what the Orthodox Church was teaching and that I couldn't stay on staff at Parkview Baptist and be honest with myself and those in the congregation at the same time.  I thanked him for all the opportunities he had given me and told him I prayed that God would continue to bless him and the congregation.  He, in turn, asked if I was sure that I had had a salvation experience.  I thought to myself, "well, I was baptized when I was nine, so that's as good a start as I can think of," so I said, "Yes, I'm sure," and left it at that, knowing that that was not the time to go into the fact that I now believed that that salvation could be lost.  I left it on a good note and never looked back.

Same story for the non-denominational Christian summer camp at which I was a counselor.  That place, in many ways, was as hard to leave behind (if not more so) than Iglesia Bautista Parkview.

Prayers for you on this difficult step.
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2005, 11:56:10 PM »

Zebu,

I am a convert from Protestantism.  I also spent some time in the Episcopal Church. These things can be difficult.  Almost as difficult as breaking up with someone.  This is because most people feel their faith rather deeply, and they see a rejection of their faith as a rejection of them.  They take it personally.

Have you considered writing a letter?  I mean an old-fashioned, snail-mail, paper letter.  The advantages of writing what you need to say is that you can really think about what you want to convey and get it all out without any interruptions, or other difficulties involved in a face-to-face encounter.  A letter is better than email because email can seem very impersonal.
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 12:21:11 AM »

God first and last

Beloved zebu

God bless your heart

I think it better if you can to leave the church you are leaving and still love the people as friends

I left the First Christian Church years ago but I still Email the church from time to time and say to all I see part of it  I may even visit a Sunday every year or so

I left the Way Ministry which I believe is a cult but I am still praying for the ones in and have visit the ones I could and I still write them

I left a few off shots of The Way too but I still say Hi if I see them

I guess I visit many churches over the years my dad was raised in the Orthodox church and my mother in the First Christian Church of Glendale

So I been water batize as a baby in the Orthodox Church and water batize in the First Christian Church then later I was Batize with fire from the holy spirit

So I say leave with love in your heart for were you were and love in your heart for were you are going

with Godly love and a holy Godly kiss blowing your way Roy
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2005, 12:26:08 AM »

Is your priest a member of Forward in Faith or other reasserting organisations? If so, he'll probably be thrilled and more than a little envious that you are leaving the sinking ship of ECUSA and headed somewhere with disciple and sincerity.
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 02:49:27 AM »

Zebu,

What Pedro said!

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Jeg liker å skrive på norsk førdi ingen forstår!

Uhm,.. some of us,.. who are in the habit of frequenting Norway and Sweden do understand! Wink It also helps to have a sister who is fluent in Norsk (Bokmal). I can't write Norwegian symbols since my lap-top doesn't have a Norwegian keyboard (I have one elsewhere tho) and I don't know the codes for the symbols (and I'm lazy lol ).

S_N_B
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2005, 10:09:17 AM »

Is your priest a member of Forward in Faith or other reasserting organisations? If so, he'll probably be thrilled and more than a little envious that you are leaving the sinking ship of ECUSA and headed somewhere with disciple and sincerity.

More likely he'll be banging his head on the wall at the lost of another faithful member. But somehow I don't think that's the situation here.

I largely agree with Pedro: you have an obligation to tell your priest the truth.
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2005, 10:07:07 AM »

Hi Zebu, Peace to you,

I know an Orthodox preist who was an Anglican preist before converting to Orthodoxy. While he was still in the Anglican church he started teaching according to the teachings of the early Eastern Fathers and Orthodox teachers. His Bishop one day came and kicked him out! Defrocked him on the spot because he said he was too "Orthodox".

But that's a special case I guess. I suppose the Christian thing to do would be to gently go face to face and explain to those concerned what you are thinking and try to leave them in in a peaceful way. Hopeful they wouldn't try to argue or convince you otherwise, but they might. I guess we can't always avoid conflict in this fallen world, and I can think of many Christian martyrs who had more than a disagreement with those of their former faiths. Good luck to you. I hope it works out. Pray for guidance and direction.

Patrick Anthony.
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2005, 12:35:39 PM »

Hi Zebu, Peace to you,

I know an Orthodox preist who was an Anglican preist before converting to Orthodoxy. While he was still in the Anglican church he started teaching according to the teachings of the early Eastern Fathers and Orthodox teachers. His Bishop one day came and kicked him out! Defrocked him on the spot because he said he was too "Orthodox".

But that's a special case I guess. I suppose the Christian thing to do would be to gently go face to face and explain to those concerned what you are thinking and try to leave them in in a peaceful way. Hopeful they wouldn't try to argue or convince you otherwise, but they might. I guess we can't always avoid conflict in this fallen world, and I can think of many Christian martyrs who had more than a disagreement with those of their former faiths. Good luck to you. I hope it works out. Pray for guidance and direction.

Patrick Anthony.

You know, I didn't know the ECUS still had that in them; I had always taken Bishop Spong as evidence that the procedure to defrock someone had been lost, and they were simply unable to do it anymore...lol; I guess when they come across a conservative these procedures are magically found.
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2005, 12:40:36 PM »

I know how it feels... I still remember hearing the priest that baptised my mum Eastern Orthodox, that he found out that I am attending the Catholic mass (the RC church is very, very close to the Orthodox church of St. Titus in Iraklio).
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2005, 12:43:30 PM »

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don’t need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don’t need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2005, 12:55:43 PM »

 Grin  TomS,

I guess this works if you want to call it "Fifty ways to leave your Church"! 
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 12:31:47 AM »

You know, I didn't know the ECUS still had that in them; I had always taken Bishop Spong as evidence that the procedure to defrock someone had been lost, and they were simply unable to do it anymore...lol; I guess when they come across a conservative these procedures are magically found.

You don't "defrock" a bishop; you "depose" them. And it is monumentally difficult to do so, which is why nobody is going to bother applying it to a retired bishop. Now, back when Spong was bishop, he had his assistant bishop (Righter) ordain Robert WIlliams (the gay priest), so it was Righter who was tried for that.

THe only bishop who was deposed of late was Jones of Montana, for adultery.
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 12:32:44 AM »

I know an Orthodox preist who was an Anglican preist before converting to Orthodoxy. While he was still in the Anglican church he started teaching according to the teachings of the early Eastern Fathers and Orthodox teachers. His Bishop one day came and kicked him out! Defrocked him on the spot because he said he was too "Orthodox".

Names please.
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2005, 01:43:00 AM »

Zebu, I know how you feel. I was, up until last January, a very active Episcopalian. I was a Layreader, a Lay Eucharistic Minister (I conducted services in the absence of a priest) and would conduct a monthly Reserved Sacrament Communion at a local nursing home, served on the altar guild, worship committee, was an oblate of an Anglican religious order and having serious discussions w/ my rector re: the Diaconate.

As I found myself drawn to Orthodoxy, I had a couple of discussions w/ my rector. I also cut back drastically on the amount of activities I was involved in. When I made a decision to become a catechumen, I sent an email to everyone I worked w/ in various committees and ministries explaining that after much prayer, discernment and disscusion, I had decided to join the Orthodox Church.

Since my chrismation, I've only been in contact w/ 3 members of my former parish. Thier reactions have been:
1. "It seems like a natural fit for you"
2. "You can't go wrong, after all Orhtodoxy has preserved the original Faith"
3. "Orthodox worship is probably closer to the worship of the early church then any other"

Even my former rector said that Orthodoxy would be her choice, if they would allow for women to be ordained!
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 11:25:09 PM »

More likely he'll be banging his head on the wall at the lost of another faithful member. But somehow I don't think that's the situation here.

No way. Most conservative Anglicans have already told their flocks that ECUSA is not an option anymore, and that one of the continuing churches, Rome, or Orthodoxy is where they should be.
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2005, 12:16:20 AM »

You should start communicating with the Orthodox Priest.  Follow what he tells you to do. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2005, 01:15:53 AM »

This is my first posting to the list. A dear friend converted to Orthodoxy a number of years ago, and my advice to her was to complete her commitments to the Parish,
to tell no one, and when all was done to have a friendly chat with the Rector to thank him for his pastoral welcome and guidance and to ask his blessing for the new
path to which the Holy Spirit was calling her. She did this and no feathers were ruffled in the process. She had, after all, been greatly nurtured in the Anglican tradition
and it was now time for her to move on. She received the Rector's blessing to do exactly that.

My advice to tell no one was to avert the inevitable dialogue which assumes that one renounces as one leaves. My advice is to renounce no one, but to love those you
leave and wish them well in the discernment of God's will for them; but to also be unafraid to move on and not look back, for God's will will for you is now something
other than what it was.

I will be baptized into the Orthodox tradition (I did not originate in a Trinitarian tradition), on November 9, 2005, at a Byzantine Monastery in California. I loved the Anglo-
Catholic parish from which I came. I was on Vestry, served more masses than I could count and was Senior Warden, confidant to the Rector; but I knew that I was
called to the Orthodox tradition, and I also knew I had to answer that call and allow myself to be transformed accoring to God's will. I did as I had instructed my friend,
now reposed, and I renounced no one. I love the Episcopal Church, and I pray that their discernment for God's will for them will be fulfilled. It is not for me to make any
judgements, only to love and to be open to what God calls me to do.

I pray that you will not look back, but that you will look forward to what God is obviously calling you to. Don't yield to the controversies and judgements of the converts
on this list; love those whom you have left but do not separate yourself. God has called us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Philoxenia (soon to be Nektarios), pray for me a sinner and a beginner
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 07:16:14 AM by philoxenia » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2005, 01:29:42 AM »

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Δοξα τω Θεω! Glory to God!

And BTW you picked a wonderful saint, couldn't think of a better one myself. 
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2005, 09:39:40 PM »

Quote
Even my former rector said that Orthodoxy would be her choice, if they would allow for women to be ordained!

...and if they ordained gays; and if they blessed same-sex marriages; and if....

Sounds like a typically Episcopalian thing to say.
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 11:08:18 PM »

Quote from Keble: "You don`t" defrock" a bishop; you "depose them"

      Man , you are a freakin` Snob! And this goes for all you other posters who insist on proper terms and proper english: You knew what he meant so, LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!! BUMBACLOT BWOY YU!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote from Keble " Names please"

      Again...you have such a snobby tone about you . I bet you used to get beat up a lot as a child.
  Keble...my brother Anthony has no obilgations to reveal names to you . You think he`s going to give out that info to a Protestant? The person he is talking about happens to be my priest and what Anthony says is true. That`s it .That`s all you need to know.
  Go ahead , say something about my sentence structure....I dare you.
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2005, 11:30:53 PM »

No way. Most conservative Anglicans have already told their flocks that ECUSA is not an option anymore, and that one of the continuing churches, Rome, or Orthodoxy is where they should be.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Exactly who told you this?
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 11:42:12 PM »

Quote from Keble: "You don`t" defrock" a bishop; you "depose them"

      Man , you are a freakin` Snob! And this goes for all you other posters who insist on proper terms and proper english: You knew what he meant so, LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!! BUMBACLOT BWOY YU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I did, and maybe I didn't. Either way I'm confident that he didn't (and for that matter maybe still doesn't) know what the difference entails. It's trivial for a bishop to defrock a priest. Unlike in Orthodoxy, you can't create an instant schism between two bishops with the same ease. Getting rid of a bad bishop is HARD.

Quote
Quote from Keble " Names please"

      Again...you have such a snobby tone about you . I bet you used to get beat up a lot as a child.

Love it or leave it, that's what I say.

Quote
Keble...my brother Anthony has no obilgations to reveal names to you . You think he`s going to give out that info to a Protestant? The person he is talking about happens to be my priest and what Anthony says is true. That`s it .That`s all you need to know.

Says you. I'm under no obligation to take your obnoxiously revealed word. Name the priest, and name the bishop. Until then, it's just an empty allegation. ANd about me being a Protestant: If you can't convince me, you can't convert me. And right now what I read is that you don't care if you convert me, that you've as much as consigned me to Hell.

Quote
Go ahead , say something about my sentence structure....I dare you.

OK, I will. You should have said, "You knew what he meant, so LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 11:45:13 PM by Keble » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2005, 12:54:03 AM »

I still find it curious that a Protestant lurks around an Orthodox convert board and is allowed to harshly criticize Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups. 
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2005, 08:27:00 AM »

I still find it curious that a Protestant lurks around an Orthodox convert board and is allowed to harshly criticize Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups. 

It is OK that you find my presence here curious. My permission to criticize them arises from the thus far unfounded allegations they make. Membership in Orthodoxy isn't a blank check to cast aspersions on others. But you were taught that in church-- right?

People are saying things that I don't find very credible. Why would someone who is a member of an organization committed to an orthodox Anglicanism encourage its members to vacate that orthodoxy by fleeing? It's illogical. Why should I believe what is now nothing more than a traveller's tale about the actions of a bishop? I follow the news in ECUSA and I think I would have heard of such a thing if it happened. Orthodoxy being the truth means that Orthodox are obliged to tell the truth and to submit to having their tales examined, and to abandon those tales if they don't pan out.
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2005, 09:04:13 AM »

To ask for some kind of corroboration is "harsh"?ÂÂ  To disagree with someone's assertion about one's own Church is to "criticize"?ÂÂ  

I submit that if the table was turned, and such remarks were made about EO by Anglicans or an unsubstantiated statement about a "former EO priest who became Anglican" were made, that there would be some kind ofÂÂ  vigourous objection and request for supporting information.

Ebor

« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 09:04:58 AM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2005, 09:07:58 AM »

Crucifer,

You handled things well, it seems to me.  Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 11:01:41 AM »

Quote from Keble: "You don`t" defrock" a bishop; you "depose them"

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Man , you are a freakin` Snob! And this goes for all you other posters who insist on proper terms and proper english: You knew what he meant so, LIGHTEN UP HOMIES!!!!!! BUMBACLOT BWOY YU!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote from Keble " Names please"

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Again...you have such a snobby tone about you . I bet you used to get beat up a lot as a child.
ÂÂ  Keble...my brother Anthony has no obilgations to reveal names to you . You think he`s going to give out that info to a Protestant? The person he is talking about happens to be my priest and what Anthony says is true. That`s it .That`s all you need to know.
ÂÂ  Go ahead , say something about my sentence structure....I dare you.

1) Keble's post was pedantic in tone so I can see why you are upset
2) That being said, it's not too much to expect people to use correct English; after all, the mode of communication is often as important as the message
3) Please don't respond to Keble with such personal attacks; if he angered you that much perhaps a private message would be a better way for you to express that.

Anastasios
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 11:09:06 AM by Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 11:05:00 AM »

I still find it curious that a Protestant lurks around an Orthodox convert board and is allowed to harshly criticize Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups.ÂÂ  

Part of me finds it curious that he is still interested in discussing things with us when it seems that he has no interest in becoming Orthodox but then again I still enjoy chatting on the Catholic message boards for the sake of discussion.  At the same time I don't think it's curious that we let him stay given that this is a discussion forum and it is also not an official representative of Orthodoxy (how could it be? it's a website!).ÂÂ  If we stifle debate, things will get boring fast.ÂÂ  Besides, if Orthodoxy is true (which I certainly believe it is!) then what do we have to worry about??ÂÂ  Also, sometimes it helps to have an outside party challenge us; it helps us refine our arguments.

Anastasios
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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2005, 11:20:43 AM »

2) That being said, it's not too much to expect people to use correct English; after all, the mode of communication is often as important as the message
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Somehow, using "improper terms" for things would lead to confusion and not getting one's ideas across, it seems to me.  Since all we can see here are the words, and not the other person, what we write and how we write it carefully is, I think, very important.

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2005, 12:15:49 PM »

1) Keble's post was pedantic in tone so I can see why you are upset

I have to wonder how any Orthodox forum would survive were pedantry outlawed!  Grin Wink
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2005, 01:04:42 PM »

Quote
Membership in Orthodoxy isn't a blank check to cast aspersions on others. But you were taught that in church-- right?

Just because you are Professor W doesn't mean you are intellectually supior either to everyone else, nor give you the right to speak down to other people.  As to Orthodoxy not being a blank check to cast aspersions, I would agree.  But I never said you didn't have that right.  I simply said it was curious that you are here, expressing doutb about you having a positive agenda in your continued presence here. 
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2005, 02:34:27 PM »

Just because you are Professor W doesn't mean you are intellectually supior either to everyone else, nor give you the right to speak down to other people.

Since you are speaking down to me now, where does that put us?

Intellectual superiority can be taken as manifested, and ignored if not. As far as being informed about ECUSA: I keep track of these things, and I not only know where to find the Constitutions and Canons, I've read them. This does give me the right to speak in a professorial tone about their contents, thankyouverymuch, especially when people who it appears haven't read them dare to tell me what they say.

Quote
ÂÂ  As to Orthodoxy not being a blank check to cast aspersions, I would agree.ÂÂ  But I never said you didn't have that right.ÂÂ  I simply said it was curious that you are here, expressing doutb about you having a positive agenda in your continued presence here.ÂÂ  

Perhaps I am reading more into your words than I should, but it seems to me that your comment about criticizing "Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups" was meant to be understood that I criticized them because the converted. I have my opinions about that, but I've never discussed them here, and besides being inappropriate to the forum, they also would start a Vesuvian flame fest. But never mind that. You've now moved into arguing, by inference, that it's OK for Orthodox people to sit around telling untruths about other churches and in general indulging in the telling of tales without fear of being put to the test of truth. I don't just spend my time here correcting errors, but it is (IMHO) a positive to have those errors corrected.
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2005, 03:09:47 PM »

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Since you are speaking down to me now, where does that put us?

Calling your tone for what it is is speaking down to you?ÂÂ  

Quote
Perhaps I am reading more into your words than I should, but it seems to me that your comment about criticizing "Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups" was meant to be understood that I criticized them because the converted. I have my opinions about that, but I've never discussed them here, and besides being inappropriate to the forum, they also would start a Vesuvian flame fest.

But the problem is that from the tone of past posts it does come across that you do have serious issues with people converting to Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  But I think in reality we would find we do agree on a lot more than it seems from our various postings.ÂÂ  I would agree it is not healthy to convert to Orthodoxy as a negative thing - i.e running from the liberalism that is attacking mainline protestantism (and the RCC as well).ÂÂ  People should convert to Orthodoxy because they want to embrace what Orthodoxy has to offer.ÂÂ  

Quote
You've now moved into arguing, by inference, that it's OK for Orthodox people to sit around telling untruths about other churches and in general indulging in the telling of tales without fear of being put to the test of truth.


No I don't think it is a good thing.ÂÂ  I think the example of Lot's wife is enough to prove that.ÂÂ  I don't really have any objection to the administrators making a board policy to the effect that people should not relentlessly bash other groups.ÂÂ  Afterall when I was still a moderator here I posted this http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6179.msg79909#msg79909 in response to an email from another poster.ÂÂ  

Quote
I don't just spend my time here correcting errors, but it is (IMHO) a positive to have those errors corrected.

And that is the crux of my concern - you spend your time her doing something.ÂÂ  You do have an agenda (we all do).ÂÂ  I'm only pointing out that Orthodox posters here should be cautious of your agenda.ÂÂ  

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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2005, 03:39:22 PM »

Perhaps I am reading more into your words than I should, but it seems to me that your comment about criticizing "Orthodox posters who have left the errors of their protestant groups" was meant to be understood that I criticized them because the converted. I have my opinions about that, but I've never discussed them here, and besides being inappropriate to the forum, they also would start a Vesuvian flame fest. But never mind that. You've now moved into arguing, by inference, that it's OK for Orthodox people to sit around telling untruths about other churches and in general indulging in the telling of tales without fear of being put to the test of truth. I don't just spend my time here correcting errors, but it is (IMHO) a positive to have those errors corrected.

Sometime we should discuss the issue of Converts from Protestantism or Orthodoxy; as a former Calvinist I am certain that I would quite enjoy the discussion, which, rest assured, I would centre on ecclesiology. But then again, I even enjoyed our Discussion on the Virtues of the Particular Institution, save your refusal to actually debate the issue and try to defend the indefensible.

Concerning the distinction between 'deposing' and 'defrocking,' technically speaking the former refers to depriving one of a posistion while the latter refers to depriving one of a garb, originally a type of Monastic Habit but eventually it came to refer to the Cassock of an Anglican Clergyman, which is where the term 'defrock' came from. Thus, either word could technically be used in reference to a priest or a bishop as a depriving of clerical garb would be the act of removing them from their posistion. Deposed became more common for Bishops because they are clearly installed in a given see, but technically a Priest is installed in a given Parish or Monastery; however, since the established posistion of a priest is less defined than that of a bishop, it is clear why the more general term of 'defrocked' became more popular. And while there may be a distinction made in Anglican Canon Law, I am not an Anglican Canonist and have nominal concern for their conventions.

With that said, I did make an error in the wording of my initial statement during my rush to play on the irony of the referenced situation; a simple deposing or defrocking of Bishop Spong would not be adequate to demonstrate that the ECUS was even somewhat serious about Christianity, an Anathema, a complete separation from him and the forbiding of public prayer on his behalf, would be the minimum action necessary to demonstrate even the lest concern for the Christian Faith.
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2005, 04:20:59 PM »

Calling your tone for what it is is speaking down to you?

No-- what you said was talking down to me, at least as much as anything I ever said in this thread. "Professor W"? Those are words of condescension, and they are your words.

Quote
But the problem is that from the tone of past posts it does come across that you do have serious issues with people converting to Orthodoxy.

That has nothing at all to do with this thread. I object to statements about actions and events in ECUSA which I don't believe are true. I think anyone has a right to expect more corroboration for these statements than what has been offered, but in my case we're talking, after all, about issues of immediate interest to me (and while I'm at it-- NOT of immediate interest to most Orthodox members of this group). I've never seen any news of someone being defrocked because they were "too Orthodox", and I read the sources in which news of such a defrocking would be expected to appear. I've already expressed my doubts about the FiF assertions.

Obviously I have a vested interest in seeing that Anglicans who are orthodox remain Anglicans. Nonetheless, I do not see how this figures in what, when all is said and done, are matters not of opinion nor of interests, but of simple fact. I believe that if the situation were reversed, your expressions of high dudgeon would greatly exceed what I have said here.
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2005, 04:41:13 PM »

OK!  Sooo...how...to...leave....

(Y'all, seriously, if you wanna do this, take it to PM's, all right?  Thanks.)
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 04:44:52 PM »

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I've never seen any news of someone being defrocked because they were "too Orthodox", and I read the sources in which news of such a defrocking would be expected to appear.

Here's some:

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2849

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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 05:26:24 PM »

I was not familiar with the Geromel case, because it has been overshadowed by the "Connecticut Six" antics (summary: bishop shows up at parish with locksmith and computer hacker). However, the details in the cases are essentially the same.

Fr. G. wasn't deposed/defrocked simply for being orthodox. The specific charge was violation of Canon IV.10 (Of Abandonment of the communion by a priest or deacon). This canon is specifically aimed at priests who join other denominations (typically RC, but also Orthodox) to prevent them from continue to practice as Anglicans. What is happening at the moment is that it is being used against priests in parishes which attempt to seek "alternative oversight" (that is, a bishop from a different diocese whose views are more theologically acceptable). In practice the system set up for doing so (DEPO) has been a failure. I haven't followed the details of how the process is supposed to work, but it has been clear that there are major jurisdictional and disciplinary issues involved and that the result tends to be a urge on the part of the parish to get away from the bishop. The interpreting of this as "abandonment of the communion" is hotly disputed, and in each case statements have been issued by groups of bishops that they do not recognize the judgements made by the deposing bishop.

And I don't accept them either; the abuse of the canon is obvious. That said, these are not simply cases of priests being defrocked for expressing orthodox views. They are the outcome (hopefully temporary) of power struggles between parishes and bishops. It should also be noted that these are new tactics, attempted (with the exception of Moyer, and I think in his case the action could be justified) only within the last month.
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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 06:55:07 PM »

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No-- what you said was talking down to me, at least as much as anything I ever said in this thread. "Professor W"? Those are words of condescension, and they are your words.

Well if you don't like Professor W, I can settle for Charlie. 

And I still find it curious that you do spend so much time here with your agenda being so obvious, and not many openly say anything.  Could there be more than meets the eye?


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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2005, 10:28:39 AM »

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That said, these are not simply cases of priests being defrocked for expressing orthodox views.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2005, 11:04:18 AM »

OK, then: if an Orthodox priest/parish made noises that they were going to leave their current jurisdiction and find another, more theologically acceptable bishop, what would happen?
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2005, 11:34:13 AM »

OK, then: if an Orthodox priest/parish made noises that they were going to leave their current jurisdiction and find another, more theologically acceptable bishop, what would happen?


I think Ben Lomond in 1998 shows what would happen.

Anastasios
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2005, 01:51:40 PM »

I think Ben Lomond in 1998 shows what would happen.

Anastasios

...which is an excellent example!

But that is also that case of a whole group/parish being waaaaaay to close knit and losing perspective (well, they didn't really have it to begin with).

I think there may be an author of a few Orthodox books who has now changed jurisdictions twice I heard from AOA -> OCA -> Bulgarians.  I hope he's not trying to be overly "correct" in praxis/mentality.  This is just speculation, so I don't want to say anything more...and I could be wrong too.
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