Author Topic: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?  (Read 12984 times)

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Offline wgw

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The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« on: March 28, 2016, 02:24:48 AM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 02:25:06 AM by wgw »
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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2016, 02:48:11 AM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?
Just about every major feast of our Lord, the Theotokos, and the saints has its own set of three antiphons, and they vary from feast to feast.

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.
Why do you need them? AFAIK, they're prescribed only for the Divine Liturgy, which you can't celebrate without a priest.
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Offline wgw

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2016, 11:58:31 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?
Just about every major feast of our Lord, the Theotokos, and the saints has its own set of three antiphons, and they vary from feast to feast.

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.
Why do you need them? AFAIK, they're prescribed only for the Divine Liturgy, which you can't celebrate without a priest.

Well, in part because I am curious to read what they are, and in part, when I listen to recordings of the Byzantine liturgy or visit a Byzantine parish, I would like to be able tomfollow along.  I think St. Anthony's in Florence is on the New Typikon; I know they are on the New Calendar.  There is an OCA liturgy served before my local Syriac Orthodox parish befins, but they use the Russian tradition.  I have recordings of Michaelides and the Byzantine Chant in English from Capella Eomana and would like to read the source text.  I figured it would be in the Octoechos, but apparently it isn't.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 12:00:15 AM by wgw »
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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 12:13:57 AM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?
Just about every major feast of our Lord, the Theotokos, and the saints has its own set of three antiphons, and they vary from feast to feast.

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.
Why do you need them? AFAIK, they're prescribed only for the Divine Liturgy, which you can't celebrate without a priest.

They're also used in the typika reader's service prescribed for when there's no priest to celebrate the Divine Liturgy, as seen here.
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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 02:08:19 AM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 02:09:10 AM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 04:18:52 AM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?
Just about every major feast of our Lord, the Theotokos, and the saints has its own set of three antiphons, and they vary from feast to feast.

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.
Why do you need them? AFAIK, they're prescribed only for the Divine Liturgy, which you can't celebrate without a priest.

They're also used in the typika reader's service prescribed for when there's no priest to celebrate the Divine Liturgy, as seen here.

Note that's the Russian version; Fr. John Whiteford is ROCOR.  I have the Greek and English versions on my chant stand at my parish; I am still in Wichita but am flying home tomorrow night, so if no one else has responded with a link to the full versions  by Friday, when I am going to the parish to chant for the first time since my two week business trip, I will copy them down and post them here.

I agree that it is weird that Fr. Seraphim Nassar's book (I have a copy at home for reference purposes, but don't use it in the parish, as the wording is not standard and I don't think it is approved in our diocese) follows the Violakis Typikon for Matins but apparently follows the Sabaite Typikon for the liturgy.

Maybe  at that time (1948 or so) the Antiochians were still transitioning, or were still using the Typical Psalms in the liturgy.  I know they use the Violakis antiphons now.

By the way, you told me you have a Festal Menaion from Kallistos Ware.  That, and your Fr. Seraphim prayer book should have the most important festal antiphons.   
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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 12:03:23 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 01:40:47 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 01:41:03 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline wgw

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 02:04:47 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

Indeed, Antonis is one of the more expert members of the forum, and I really appreciate his post.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 02:19:31 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?
Just about every major feast of our Lord, the Theotokos, and the saints has its own set of three antiphons, and they vary from feast to feast.

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.
Why do you need them? AFAIK, they're prescribed only for the Divine Liturgy, which you can't celebrate without a priest.

They're also used in the typika reader's service prescribed for when there's no priest to celebrate the Divine Liturgy, as seen here.

Note that's the Russian version; Fr. John Whiteford is ROCOR.  I have the Greek and English versions on my chant stand at my parish; I am still in Wichita but am flying home tomorrow night, so if no one else has responded with a link to the full versions  by Friday, when I am going to the parish to chant for the first time since my two week business trip, I will copy them down and post them here.

I agree that it is weird that Fr. Seraphim Nassar's book (I have a copy at home for reference purposes, but don't use it in the parish, as the wording is not standard and I don't think it is approved in our diocese) follows the Violakis Typikon for Matins but apparently follows the Sabaite Typikon for the liturgy.

Maybe  at that time (1948 or so) the Antiochians were still transitioning, or were still using the Typical Psalms in the liturgy.  I know they use the Violakis antiphons now.

By the way, you told me you have a Festal Menaion from Kallistos Ware.  That, and your Fr. Seraphim prayer book should have the most important festal antiphons.

Hey CX, I found the alternate antiphons in the Festal Menaion.  I also found them in the "Nassar Five Pounder" according to the Violakis style; I simply misread page 123, and looked for the Violakis antiphons in the Octoechos section, rather than the Menaion and the Horologion portions of the book.

So Fr. Seraphim Nassar was, as far as I can tell, followimg the Violakis typikon precisely.

I have to confess, I actually prefer the Violakis antiphons to the Sabaite approach.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 02:25:52 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.

I have read that they codified practices already in use, but not that these were a continuation of the lost Cathedral Rite. 

I have to confess, if they are a continuation of the Cathedral Rite, that would actually on one level confuse me, because my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Cathedral Rite except in its very last years was almost exclusively comprised of Biblical hymns and canticles, and avoided hymns and so on, with rare exceptions like the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.

On the other hand, given the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change, the idea that this was a remnant of the Cathedral Rite seems wuite plausible and makes me respect the Violakis Typikon rather more.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2016, 03:09:19 PM »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

Indeed, Antonis is one of the more expert members of the forum, and I really appreciate his post.

<3
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2016, 03:16:35 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.

I have read that they codified practices already in use, but not that these were a continuation of the lost Cathedral Rite. 

I have to confess, if they are a continuation of the Cathedral Rite, that would actually on one level confuse me, because my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Cathedral Rite except in its very last years was almost exclusively comprised of Biblical hymns and canticles, and avoided hymns and so on, with rare exceptions like the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.

The bulk of the Violakis typikon is the monastic rite; it's only a few small places where traces of the cathedral rite persist.

Quote
On the other hand, given the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change, the idea that this was a remnant of the Cathedral Rite seems wuite plausible and makes me respect the Violakis Typikon rather more.

Obviously, "the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change" is a modern fable, since changes, minor and major, have been accruing for centuries. Outbreaks of resistance like the Old Believers or the Old Calendarists (which often end up enshrining innovations themselves) are exceptions rather than the rule.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 03:18:20 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2016, 06:10:48 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.

I have read that they codified practices already in use, but not that these were a continuation of the lost Cathedral Rite. 

I have to confess, if they are a continuation of the Cathedral Rite, that would actually on one level confuse me, because my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Cathedral Rite except in its very last years was almost exclusively comprised of Biblical hymns and canticles, and avoided hymns and so on, with rare exceptions like the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.

On the other hand, given the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change, the idea that this was a remnant of the Cathedral Rite seems wuite plausible and makes me respect the Violakis Typikon rather more.
The Antiphons are from the Cathedral Rite.  You are confusing the Monastic Rite(s) which in its early years basically rejected almost all hymnography.  The Office of Three Little Antiphons was part of the Cathedral Rite Vespers and Liturgy.  It is true the Cathedral Rite had less hymnography than we have now, which was imported from the Studite and Sabbaite Monasteries.  They had mostly short one sentence exclamations.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline wgw

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2016, 02:02:14 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.

I have read that they codified practices already in use, but not that these were a continuation of the lost Cathedral Rite. 

I have to confess, if they are a continuation of the Cathedral Rite, that would actually on one level confuse me, because my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Cathedral Rite except in its very last years was almost exclusively comprised of Biblical hymns and canticles, and avoided hymns and so on, with rare exceptions like the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.

On the other hand, given the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change, the idea that this was a remnant of the Cathedral Rite seems wuite plausible and makes me respect the Violakis Typikon rather more.
The Antiphons are from the Cathedral Rite.  You are confusing the Monastic Rite(s) which in its early years basically rejected almost all hymnography.  The Office of Three Little Antiphons was part of the Cathedral Rite Vespers and Liturgy.  It is true the Cathedral Rite had less hymnography than we have now, which was imported from the Studite and Sabbaite Monasteries.  They had mostly short one sentence exclamations.

I believe you have this backwards, or are referring to a different, disused monastic Typikon.

The Sabaite-Studite synthesis is what most parishes adopted after the fall of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusades.  Hymns like the kontakia, troparia, and the canticles based on the themes of the nine Biblical odes, mainly came from this Rite.

The Cathedral Typikon on the other hand had very few hymns, formexample, the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.  It stressed the Psalms and actual Biblical odes. 

At least, that's what the Oxford History of Christian Worship, the Blackwell Companion of Eastern Christianity, A Short History of the Byzantine Rite by Robert Taft, and if memory serves, The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia say.

Now, maybe I am misreading you and you are referring to a monastic rite other than the Studite-Sabaite synthesis.  Perhaps the primitive monastic observances under the Rule, or Typikon, if you will, of St. Pachomius?

Someone in the know on OCNet indicated the Coptic Rite also has a lost Cathedral Rite, and that the Filling of the Chalice found in the Euchologion is possibly a relic of a lost Coptic Presanctified Liturgy.  .

Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016, 03:10:44 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.

I have read that they codified practices already in use, but not that these were a continuation of the lost Cathedral Rite. 

I have to confess, if they are a continuation of the Cathedral Rite, that would actually on one level confuse me, because my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Cathedral Rite except in its very last years was almost exclusively comprised of Biblical hymns and canticles, and avoided hymns and so on, with rare exceptions like the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.

On the other hand, given the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change, the idea that this was a remnant of the Cathedral Rite seems wuite plausible and makes me respect the Violakis Typikon rather more.
The Antiphons are from the Cathedral Rite.  You are confusing the Monastic Rite(s) which in its early years basically rejected almost all hymnography.  The Office of Three Little Antiphons was part of the Cathedral Rite Vespers and Liturgy.  It is true the Cathedral Rite had less hymnography than we have now, which was imported from the Studite and Sabbaite Monasteries.  They had mostly short one sentence exclamations.

I believe you have this backwards, or are referring to a different, disused monastic Typikon.

The Sabaite-Studite synthesis is what most parishes adopted after the fall of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusades.  Hymns like the kontakia, troparia, and the canticles based on the themes of the nine Biblical odes, mainly came from this Rite.

The Cathedral Typikon on the other hand had very few hymns, formexample, the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.  It stressed the Psalms and actual Biblical odes. 

At least, that's what the Oxford History of Christian Worship, the Blackwell Companion of Eastern Christianity, A Short History of the Byzantine Rite by Robert Taft, and if memory serves, The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia say.

Now, maybe I am misreading you and you are referring to a monastic rite other than the Studite-Sabaite synthesis.  Perhaps the primitive monastic observances under the Rule, or Typikon, if you will, of St. Pachomius?

Someone in the know on OCNet indicated the Coptic Rite also has a lost Cathedral Rite, and that the Filling of the Chalice found in the Euchologion is possibly a relic of a lost Coptic Presanctified Liturgy.  .
I am aware of the Sabaite-Studite synthesis.  I am speaking of what preceded it.  Look up St John Moschus' visit to Mt Sinai.  Vespers consisted of Psalm 103, Psalm 140, Joyful Light, Vouchsafe O Lord, Canticle of Simeon, Trisagion Prayers.  No stichera, no prokimen, no aposticha, no Troparia or Theotokia.  The Horologion of St Sabbas is similar.  These preceded the explosion of monastic hymnography after the triumph of the Iconodules.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline wgw

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Re: The Three Antiphons: When do they change, other than Pascha?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016, 03:29:53 PM »
In the Byzantine Rite, aside from the Paschal liturgy, when are antiphons other than the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes used?  And what are these alternate antiphons?

Also, the Octoechos contains the antiphonal text that is interpolated with the Beatitudes for each of the Eight Tones.  In the Greek parish typikon, however, I understand that the Typical Psalms are usually highly abbrviated or replaced with other brief verses.  Where can I find these?  I looked in the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nassar, which tends to follow the Greek parish Typikon rather than the Sabaite, but I could find no information on the shortened antiphons now predominant in the Greek tradition, or where they would be found.

Lastly, a question for Salpy, Aram and my other Armenian friends: Given that the Armenian Rite uses basically the same three Antiphons as the Byzantine Rite, even the same prayers, does it also substitute alternate antiphons, for example, on Pascha, and if so, when, and what antiphons does it substitute?
The following information is standard Greek practice:

Almost uniformly, Greek churches utilize the Violakis Typikon, a revised Sabaite Typikon. Some churches (I was a chanter at one such church) and monasteries find occasion to utilize the Sabaite Typikon, though this is uncommon at best.

For the Violakis Typikon:

The first antiphonal hymn is "By the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us." This is chanted at least three times with short, variable, psalm verses in-between each repetition. The antiphon itself does not change according to season.

The second antiphonal hymn is "Save us O Son of God, __________ , who sing to you alleluia." The typical "fill-in" for the blank is "who art wondrous in Your saints," for weekdays and "who did rise from the dead" for Sundays and several other select occasions. There are also feast-specific fill-ins, such as "who wast baptized in the Jordan by John" for Epiphany, and "who wast transfigured in glory on Mt Thabor" for Transfiguration, as well as a good deal of others. Like the first antiphon, the psalm verses in between the 3 or more repititions are variable. This set leads into the hymn "o Monogenes" after a "Glory... Both now...."

The third antiphon for the small entrance is, theoretically, the top apolytikion for the day with psalms verses in between its repitition. However, these verses are generally omitted and the apolytikion is only sung once as it generally lasts long enough on its own for the small entrance to take place in full.

I believe all the monasteries on Athos use the Sabaite typicon.

My understanding is that the Violakis typicon codified some longstanding parish practices. The use of antiphons instead of the typical psalms seems to be a survival from the Cathedral rite.

I have read that they codified practices already in use, but not that these were a continuation of the lost Cathedral Rite. 

I have to confess, if they are a continuation of the Cathedral Rite, that would actually on one level confuse me, because my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Cathedral Rite except in its very last years was almost exclusively comprised of Biblical hymns and canticles, and avoided hymns and so on, with rare exceptions like the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.

On the other hand, given the resistance of Orthodox to even minor change, the idea that this was a remnant of the Cathedral Rite seems wuite plausible and makes me respect the Violakis Typikon rather more.
The Antiphons are from the Cathedral Rite.  You are confusing the Monastic Rite(s) which in its early years basically rejected almost all hymnography.  The Office of Three Little Antiphons was part of the Cathedral Rite Vespers and Liturgy.  It is true the Cathedral Rite had less hymnography than we have now, which was imported from the Studite and Sabbaite Monasteries.  They had mostly short one sentence exclamations.

I believe you have this backwards, or are referring to a different, disused monastic Typikon.

The Sabaite-Studite synthesis is what most parishes adopted after the fall of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusades.  Hymns like the kontakia, troparia, and the canticles based on the themes of the nine Biblical odes, mainly came from this Rite.

The Cathedral Typikon on the other hand had very few hymns, formexample, the Trisagion, Ho Monogenes, and so on.  It stressed the Psalms and actual Biblical odes. 

At least, that's what the Oxford History of Christian Worship, the Blackwell Companion of Eastern Christianity, A Short History of the Byzantine Rite by Robert Taft, and if memory serves, The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware of Diokleia say.

Now, maybe I am misreading you and you are referring to a monastic rite other than the Studite-Sabaite synthesis.  Perhaps the primitive monastic observances under the Rule, or Typikon, if you will, of St. Pachomius?

Someone in the know on OCNet indicated the Coptic Rite also has a lost Cathedral Rite, and that the Filling of the Chalice found in the Euchologion is possibly a relic of a lost Coptic Presanctified Liturgy.  .
I am aware of the Sabaite-Studite synthesis.  I am speaking of what preceded it.  Look up St John Moschus' visit to Mt Sinai.  Vespers consisted of Psalm 103, Psalm 140, Joyful Light, Vouchsafe O Lord, Canticle of Simeon, Trisagion Prayers.  No stichera, no prokimen, no aposticha, no Troparia or Theotokia.  The Horologion of St Sabbas is similar.  These preceded the explosion of monastic hymnography after the triumph of the Iconodules.

Ah, very good then.  You are talking not about the Studite-Sabaite Typikon, but the practices of the monasteries before the Iconoclast controversy.     I've been reading Taft's Short History of the Byzantine Rite.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!