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Author Topic: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.  (Read 7524 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2010, 06:16:26 AM »


Well, the COE believes that the language of the OO and Copts beliefs is pretty bad, however I don't think Copts and OO REALLY believe that God changed, that spirits have blood, and that Jesus is a half God, half human fusion being who could not offer his humanity as a sacrifice in the cross (thus dooming everybody).

Well, you may or may not be right:

1. The Logos "changed", in so far as He assumed an instance of humanity as His. But the two enhypostatic elements did not mix or convert in their essence.
2. We believe that the Logos has blood, yes.
3. We believe that Jesus is the Logos. The Logos is both fully divine and fully human, after the union.

Where did you get your conception of what Monophysitism is?

Ok, all I care about is the divine Kyana not changing. The Person of Christ had blood, his humanity had blood, but the humanity and divinity remained separate with no intermingling, or else God changed. This is the view of the COE. The Divine Qnome had no blood, the human qnome did.

I still don't think we're on the same page. You are saying that "Christ", the parsopic product of the union, had blood. I am saying that the eternal Logos had blood. They appear to be very different claims.
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« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2010, 07:07:44 AM »

I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

Well please inform your Priest that OT Scriptures need to be removed from the Liturgy.

Selam

Well, I don't think there is any reason to get so snippy; people have different ways of seeing things, Gebre - and I wasn't intending to be an oracle, but merely someone working through some issues just like any other member on this thread. But as you have descended to sarcasm, I guess that ends any hope of convivial discussion between you and I. Forgive me, if I have offended you.
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« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2010, 02:23:19 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.
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« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2010, 05:17:56 PM »

Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

I wouldn't call it a "doctrine" in the sense that it's dogmatically binding and the exclusive way to understand the mystery of our salvation.  It's just an illustration; a way to understand what Christ accomplished on the cross.  Anyway, the non-Chalcedonians don't have some huge problem with Penal Satisfaction.  The EO are the ones who get all wound up about it because they like to define everything contra-Old Rome/demonic West.
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« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2010, 05:34:35 PM »

Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

The EO are the ones who get all wound up about it because they like to define everything contra-Old Rome/demonic West.

Are you sure that is the case, or is it merely another instance where people honestly disagree on a point that seems to one side not as important as it is to the other? It is only when the side who sees it as under-emphasised decides to push for the other to concede that it really becomes a bone of contention. If the penal satisfaction doctrine hasn't become the issue within Eastern Orthodoxy that it has with the West, why would we feel any special need to embrace it wholeheartedly?
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« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2010, 05:53:16 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam
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« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2010, 05:54:23 PM »

I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

Well please inform your Priest that OT Scriptures need to be removed from the Liturgy.

Selam

Well, I don't think there is any reason to get so snippy; people have different ways of seeing things, Gebre - and I wasn't intending to be an oracle, but merely someone working through some issues just like any other member on this thread. But as you have descended to sarcasm, I guess that ends any hope of convivial discussion between you and I. Forgive me, if I have offended you.

Not being "snippy," just trying to make a point. You haven't offended me.

Selam
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« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2010, 06:33:05 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.
What do you mean Gebre? Does your Tewahedo Church consider the OT to be complete in itself unlike Riddikulus'? I know your church places great emphasis on tablets of the Law (Ten Commandments) and  on the Ark of the Covenant. It seems the Old Testament is very important to you.
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« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2010, 06:59:37 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.
What do you mean Gebre? Does your Tewahedo Church consider the OT to be complete in itself unlike Riddikulus'? I know your church places great emphasis on tablets of the Law (Ten Commandments) and  on the Ark of the Covenant. It seems the Old Testament is very important to you.

No. Our Church does not consider the OT to be complete in itself. But yes, the OT is very important to us.

The main points I wanted to make were posted earlier on this thread, but I'll state them again here:

If Protestant "Sola Scripturists" view the Bible as a literal dictatorial message from God, let us (Orthodox) not be guilty of trying to overcompensate by demoting the OT as merely a collection of uninformed stabs at expressing truths about God. I mean, the Prophets and the Psamists weren't merely stating blind subjective opinions about divine truth; they were in fact revealing divine Truth, even if not in its fullness. So let's be careful about how we view and characterize the Scriptures- be they OT or NT.

The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete.

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?


Selam
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« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2010, 07:04:04 PM »

The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete.

Amen!

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2010, 07:28:28 PM »

Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

I wouldn't call it a "doctrine" in the sense that it's dogmatically binding and the exclusive way to understand the mystery of our salvation.  It's just an illustration; a way to understand what Christ accomplished on the cross.  Anyway, the non-Chalcedonians don't have some huge problem with Penal Satisfaction.  The EO are the ones who get all wound up about it because they like to define everything contra-Old Rome/demonic West.

The OO probably don't even have the same experience of the Penal Substitution of the West.

So now you're saying it's not really part of the Eastern tradition? You seemed to be suggesting early that it was. And you seemed disturbed by the idea of it being "thrown out".
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« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2010, 07:30:14 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.
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« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2010, 07:47:49 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam
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« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2010, 07:50:00 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam

I think numerous depictions of the nature of God in the OT were deficient and can only be interpreted in an acceptable manner in light of the Gospel.
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« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2010, 08:47:31 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam

I think numerous depictions of the nature of God in the OT were deficient and can only be interpreted in an acceptable manner in light of the Gospel.

Again I would argue that these depictions are not incorrect or deficient, but rather incomplete. And I would say the same thing for the New Testament. We know more about God through the Gospels, explanatory epistles, and the Apocalypse; but as St. Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." [I Corinthians 13:12]

Selam
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« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2010, 08:49:11 PM »

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.
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« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2010, 08:54:01 PM »

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Thanks for making my point. Just I have said all along, the NT is the culmination, clarification, and fulfillment of the OT.

Selam
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« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2010, 08:58:41 PM »

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Thanks for making my point. Just I have said all along, the NT is the culmination, clarification, and fulfillment of the OT.

Oh, that was your point was it? So how come, when Riddikulus said exactly the same thing you sarcastically told her to tell her priest to remove any references to the OT in the Liturgy?
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« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2010, 09:26:11 PM »

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Thanks for making my point. Just I have said all along, the NT is the culmination, clarification, and fulfillment of the OT.

Oh, that was your point was it? So how come, when Riddikulus said exactly the same thing you sarcastically told her to tell her priest to remove any references to the OT in the Liturgy?

I've explained that already. My points have been made clearly. Not much more to add. You will try to find fault with anything I say, so I won't waste time trying to explain myself to you. I state things clearly and unequivocally.

Just as an aside, let me encourage you to seek the positive my brother. There is a lot of light to be enjoyed if you would choose to look for it. But if you keep looking for errors, for wrongs, for negativity and darkness, then you will surely find it. But you'll miss out on lot of positive things. We all find what we look for really.

Selam
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« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2010, 09:33:50 PM »


Gebre, do you know what "projection" is in psychology? Its when you project on to others something which you cannot face about yourself. For example:

You will try to find fault with anything I say, so I won't waste time trying to explain myself to you. I state things clearly and unequivocally.
Well Riddikulus said exactly what you said, but you told her to correct her Priest. Is that because you try to find fault with anything she says, even though she states it clearly and unequivocally?

Just as an aside, let me encourage you to seek the positive my brother. There is a lot of light to be enjoyed if you would choose to look for it. But if you keep looking for errors, for wrongs, for negativity and darkness, then you will surely find it. But you'll miss out on lot of positive things. We all find what we look for really.
Follow this advice and you are sure to find peace. But keep pontificating and rolling your eyes at us, and it will elude you forever.
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« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2010, 09:37:26 PM »

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Certain terms in the law expand or contract, it happened before Sinai, it happened after Christ. Beware though: much of what is claimed to be change in the OT instruction in the New Testament is actually concerned with the oral torah practices of the Jews.
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« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2010, 09:52:44 PM »

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Certain terms in the law expand or contract, it happened before Sinai, it happened after Christ. Beware though: much of what is claimed to be change in the OT instruction in the New Testament is actually concerned with the oral torah practices of the Jews.
Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21 are not "oral torah practices of the Jews", they are the Torah.
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« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2010, 10:10:53 PM »


Just as an aside, let me encourage you to seek the positive my brother. There is a lot of light to be enjoyed if you would choose to look for it. But if you keep looking for errors, for wrongs, for negativity and darkness, then you will surely find it. But you'll miss out on lot of positive things. We all find what we look for really.
Follow this advice and you are sure to find peace. But keep pontificating and rolling your eyes at us, and it will elude you forever.

This advice is indeed applicable to all of us. Pray for me to practice what I preach.

Selam
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"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
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« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2010, 10:31:01 PM »

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam

I think numerous depictions of the nature of God in the OT were deficient and can only be interpreted in an acceptable manner in light of the Gospel.

Again I would argue that these depictions are not incorrect or deficient, but rather incomplete. And I would say the same thing for the New Testament. We know more about God through the Gospels, explanatory epistles, and the Apocalypse; but as St. Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." [I Corinthians 13:12]

Selam

So you think God creating a worldwide flood that killed every last man, woman, child, and animal, while leaving only one family of each to live was a sufficient representation of God's actual being?
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« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2010, 10:53:34 PM »

I'm not trying to take sides in a debate here so as to thereby fuel further contention; just trying to help clear up what seems to be an honest misunderstanding between good persons:

It does not seem to me that GMK in any way contradicted himself. Riddikulus’ comment regarding the NT 'trumping' the OT was made in a context which clearly suggested that she believes it did so in the sense of 'correction'. GMK has clearly, and, in my opinion, rightfully, opposed the idea that the OT was corrected by the NT. He ascents to the vague assertion that the NT 'trumped' the OT insofar, and only insofar, as that means that the OT was fulfilled/completed/perfected by the NT—which is no doubt the sense that the Lord Christ intended his comments relevant to the relationship between the two Covenants, as a patristic and academic analysis of those comments would elucidate.

I think that by suggesting to Riddikulus that use of the OT by the NT Church makes no sense if one were to assume that the OT was false in its presentation of God, GMK was trying to make a valid point. It would certainly make sense for me to publish the Prologue of a certain work upon the completion of that work, but it would be silly for me to publish the rough draft, replete as it is with errors, along with that completed work.
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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
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