Author Topic: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread  (Read 23709 times)

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2016, 01:20:14 PM »
A lot of implications, but no substance.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2016, 03:25:19 PM »

The way you describe your seminary experience it sounds more like high school than college.  What would lead to such disagreements?  It is sad when one hears of bad interactions at any level of education.  Maybe sometimes the teacher is on a power-trip.  Not saying this is the case.

Actually, if you talk to most academics, you can hear similar stories going on in completely secular educational institutions.  Greater intellectual capacity does little to stem the tide of human desires and their distortion.

Were both parties able to set aside differences in Theology outside of the classroom and "agree to disagree"?

At about the same frequency as you see here at the OCNet.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2016, 03:58:48 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Elisha

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2016, 04:18:20 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

1) This is the "Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread", so one is free to disagree.  Why would one be interested in even reading anything in this thread if one doesn't have any disagreements with Fr. Hopko of blessed memory?  Sensitive are we?

2) While I don't know specifics either, I don't see it "casting a shade" anymore than starting the thread to begin with or being sanctimonious.


Additionally, there are notable clergy who have died recently who many thought "could do no wrong" per se and many of us know they sure did a whole lot of wrong (or wrong by inaction/silence/indifference)!  They were still clergy in "good standing" and thus we still say Memory Eternal.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 04:23:12 PM by Elisha »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2016, 04:21:37 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

You should be scandalized less.  I like what Fr. Giryus said earlier about idolizing anyone.  What occurs here is no different than what occurs in the Coptic Church. Casting shade occurs even between bishops against other clergy post-mortem.

There comes a time where we can air disagreements on a departed person hopefully without any anathemas.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2016, 04:29:40 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

I don't think that I'm in any way able to 'cast a shade' on anyone's legacy, particularly his.  I think you are attributing too much to me.  And, I think that is largely why I don't believe that my remarks are all that important at all in the grand scheme of things.  Those who revere him will revere him no matter what I say, and those who don't won't be swayed either.

I'm not going to dump out a whole rather unfortunate history on the internet just to sate the curiosity of those who need specifics to feel better.  Frankly, it wouldn't help.  And, it would play into your first accusation all the more.

As for getting 'sanctimonious,' I'm not sure how I did that, when all I was trying to do was explain to Raylight what the historical circumstances were surrounding Archbishop Valerian, the OCA, and the Romanian Orthodox Church.  I did not characterize anyone as being 'impious,' and I thought I had done an OK job of avoiding both praising or condemning all those involved.  If that's being 'sanctimonious,' well, then I guess you are going to always be disappointed with my responses.

If you really, really want to know the details, I invite you to PM and we can have a discussion off-line.  Members here can do that.  This way, you can't accuse me of casting a shade while getting all the gory details of what was a complicated time.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2016, 06:01:02 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

You should be scandalized less. 

Yes.  It shouldn't be a professional occupation. 

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2016, 06:11:45 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

You should be scandalized less.  I like what Fr. Giryus said earlier about idolizing anyone.  What occurs here is no different than what occurs in the Coptic Church. Casting shade occurs even between bishops against other clergy post-mortem.

There comes a time where we can air disagreements on a departed person hopefully without any anathemas.

I had no problem with any poster except for one: tcolon90. What he wrote, in a drive-by-shooting manner, was unseemly both in substance and timing. That said, I do not wish to remain in this discussion until after Pascha. I will forgive tcolon90, but I need a bit of time and certainly do not need to revisit his columny.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2016, 06:20:52 PM »
I had a bad experience with Mor Ephrem. He hurt me deeply and displayed his true character. It haunts me to this day. No need to bring up old hurts by mentioning details, though, but PM me if you want them.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2016, 06:35:00 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

I don't think that I'm in any way able to 'cast a shade' on anyone's legacy, particularly his.  I think you are attributing too much to me.  And, I think that is largely why I don't believe that my remarks are all that important at all in the grand scheme of things.  Those who revere him will revere him no matter what I say, and those who don't won't be swayed either.

I'm not going to dump out a whole rather unfortunate history on the internet just to sate the curiosity of those who need specifics to feel better.  Frankly, it wouldn't help.  And, it would play into your first accusation all the more.

As for getting 'sanctimonious,' I'm not sure how I did that, when all I was trying to do was explain to Raylight what the historical circumstances were surrounding Archbishop Valerian, the OCA, and the Romanian Orthodox Church.  I did not characterize anyone as being 'impious,' and I thought I had done an OK job of avoiding both praising or condemning all those involved.  If that's being 'sanctimonious,' well, then I guess you are going to always be disappointed with my responses.

If you really, really want to know the details, I invite you to PM and we can have a discussion off-line.  Members here can do that.  This way, you can't accuse me of casting a shade while getting all the gory details of what was a complicated time.


I don't really care what he did and didn't do. He was a fallible person like any other and I was never under any impression to the contrary.  What I care about are your vague insinuations that just seem calculated to make people feel sorry for you at the expense of somebody who can't defend themselves much less anybody else being able to analyze your claims. It's nothing but cowardice. If you have a grievance, ether go all out in public or keep your mouth shut entirely.

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2016, 06:44:09 PM »

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.

I've gone through my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I told people they should be 'ashamed'.  Could you point that out to me?
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2016, 06:49:13 PM »
In the interest of the peace of the OCNet, and even my own salvation, I do wish apologize for my comments about Fr. Thomas, particularly to those here whose feelings I have hurt.

I suppose that I have not entirely resolved my experiences with him, and I should have just kept my feelings to myself. 

Thank you all for your kindness and understanding.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2016, 08:27:40 PM »

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.

I've gone through my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I told people they should be 'ashamed'.  Could you point that out to me?

It seems that my memory was faulty and I got you mixed up with Carl Kraeff. My apologies for the misatribution.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2016, 08:32:57 PM »

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.

I've gone through my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I told people they should be 'ashamed'.  Could you point that out to me?

It seems that my memory was faulty and I got you mixed up with Carl Kraeff. My apologies for the misatribution.

Let that never happen again: Carl is much better looking, and would be insulted by such confusion.  ;)

No worries.  Though, I must say, you had me concerned there for a moment.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 08:33:38 PM by FatherGiryus »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2016, 09:11:56 PM »
Why do you continue to cast shade on a dead priest's legacy (not to mention possibly troubling his children and grandchildren) without accusing him of anything specific (and seemingly just so you can humblebrag about how hurt you were by him, again without specifics) and then get all sanctimonious about discussing the long dead Bishop Valerian Trifa during Clean Weak?

You should be scandalized less.  I like what Fr. Giryus said earlier about idolizing anyone.  What occurs here is no different than what occurs in the Coptic Church. Casting shade occurs even between bishops against other clergy post-mortem.

There comes a time where we can air disagreements on a departed person hopefully without any anathemas.

I had no problem with any poster except for one: tcolon90. What he wrote, in a drive-by-shooting manner, was unseemly both in substance and timing. That said, I do not wish to remain in this discussion until after Pascha. I will forgive tcolon90, but I need a bit of time and certainly do not need to revisit his columny.
Agreed. I have no problem with anyone voicing disagreement with anything Fr. Hopko taught or argued, for disagreement in itself is not disrespectful. I also have no problem with anyone sharing a less-than-perfect anecdote of one's own personal dealings with Fr. Hopko. I have a problem only with tcolon, who went one (or several) steps farther by accusing Fr. Hopko of heresy and posting disparaging conjecture of Fr. Hopko's motives, both without yet offering any proof, even when such proof was requested. That is calumny unbefitting anyone who wishes to be seen as a decent person, IMO.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2016, 02:59:01 PM »

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.

I've gone through my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I told people they should be 'ashamed'.  Could you point that out to me?

It seems that my memory was faulty and I got you mixed up with Carl Kraeff. My apologies for the misatribution.

I may be having a senior moment but I do not remember posting on the "Bishop Trifa thread." I would appreciate a reference and I thank you in advance. That said, I do not think that I could be accused of anything more tan consistency for I have in effect criticized tcolon90 for unwarranted and slanderous attacks on Father Hopko of blessed memory, especially during this time of the year. 

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2016, 03:02:24 PM »

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.

I've gone through my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I told people they should be 'ashamed'.  Could you point that out to me?

It seems that my memory was faulty and I got you mixed up with Carl Kraeff. My apologies for the misatribution.

Let that never happen again: Carl is much better looking, and would be insulted by such confusion.  ;)

No worries.  Though, I must say, you had me concerned there for a moment.


Dear Father Giryus--I will have to take your word it. However, I have a feeling that the adage "beauty before age" would not be contradicted in the opinion of objective persons if they were to compare our pictures side by side.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2016, 03:30:28 PM »
A little Googling produced the following:

http://lessonsfromamonastery.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/critique-of-fr-thomas-hopkos-theology/
http://panagiaquicktohear.com/2014/01/20/the-theology-of-protopresbyter-thomas-hopko-orthodox-or-opinion/
http://panagiaquicktohear.com/2014/01/28/the-theology-of-protopresbyter-thomas-hopko-orthodox-or-opinion-2/
http://panagiaquicktohear.com/2014/02/08/the-theology-of-protopresbyter-thomas-hopko-orthodox-or-opinion-part-ii/
http://panagiaquicktohear.com/2014/02/18/the-theology-of-protopresbyter-thomas-hopko-orthodox-or-opinion-part-ii-2/

The first link summarizes the remaining four as follows:

Quote
Here is a list of Fr. Hopko’s teachings (not necessarily in order) which Fr. Gregory addresses...

1. That the Virgin required Purification;

2. That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

3. That the human soul is not eternal but dies when the body dies;

4. That Christ’s divinity is circumscribed by His humanity, rendering Him not omnipresent;

5. That Christ was ignorant of “many things”.

Please note that I am not the author of anything linked or quoted here, so don't expect me to defend any of it. Nor am I attempting to bail out tcolon90. I'd just like to see this thread continue with a little more substance. Have at it.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2016, 06:10:26 PM »
Quote
That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

Seeing as how the female "seal of virginity" is a myth, I'll side with Fr. Hopko on that one. She must have been ever-virgin in some other sense.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 06:11:39 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2016, 06:15:17 PM »

If you can say that the people in the Bishop Trifa thread should be "ashamed" of themselves (which apparently doesn't include you) then I'll say that you should be ashamed of yourself here.

I've gone through my posts, and I can't seem to find anywhere where I told people they should be 'ashamed'.  Could you point that out to me?

It seems that my memory was faulty and I got you mixed up with Carl Kraeff. My apologies for the misatribution.

I may be having a senior moment but I do not remember posting on the "Bishop Trifa thread." I would appreciate a reference and I thank you in advance. That said, I do not think that I could be accused of anything more tan consistency for I have in effect criticized tcolon90 for unwarranted and slanderous attacks on Father Hopko of blessed memory, especially during this time of the year.

No problem.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68505.msg1387084.html#msg1387084
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2016, 06:26:10 PM »
Quote
That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

Seeing as how the female "seal of virginity" is a myth, I'll side with Fr. Hopko on that one. She must have been ever-virgin in some other sense.

What do you mean by "some other sense"?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2016, 06:31:19 PM »
Quote
That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

Seeing as how the female "seal of virginity" is a myth, I'll side with Fr. Hopko on that one. She must have been ever-virgin in some other sense.

What do you mean by "some other sense"?

In whatever sense somebody is a virgin without their hymen. The fact that she never had sex is a good start. Spiritual purity is likely also in there.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Theophania

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2016, 06:33:01 PM »
This is way too complicated for me. To me, Mary never had sex so she's rightfully called Ever-Virgin. Whether her hymen was broken during labor or some other innocent exercise is totally immaterial IMO.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2016, 06:34:43 PM »
Quote
That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

Seeing as how the female "seal of virginity" is a myth, I'll side with Fr. Hopko on that one. She must have been ever-virgin in some other sense.

What do you mean by "some other sense"?

In whatever sense somebody is a virgin without their hymen. The fact that she never had sex is a good start. Spiritual purity is likely also in there.

Redefinitions of "never", "to have", and "sex" are sure to follow.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2016, 06:36:45 PM »
This is way too complicated for me. To me, Mary never had sex so she's rightfully called Ever-Virgin. Whether her hymen was broken during labor or some other innocent exercise is totally immaterial IMO.

I agree. Some don't seem to, though.

I don't blame the author of the Protoevangelium or whatever other ancient source for this. They were just going off the limited medical knowledge of their day. But people nowadays should know better. This isn't some argument about psychology or the morality of gay marriage or whatever, it's basic medicine.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2016, 06:37:39 PM »
I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2016, 06:41:26 PM »
I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2016, 06:54:16 PM »
I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.

Quote
The Holy Virgin called me today that I should speak of her.  Let us purge our hearing that her fair story may not be dishonoured.  Second heaven, in whose bosom rested the Lord of the heights and (he) came forth to drive away the darkness from the face of the earth.

Blessed among women, by whom the curse upon the earth was uprooted and the sentence of judgement came to an end.  Mystery of purity, full of the beauty of holiness, my mouth is too little to tell your story. 

Daughter of the poor, who were the Mother of the Son of God, and gave wealth to the world in need that it might live from it.  Ship, who carried the blessings and the treasures of the house of the Father, and came and poured out your wealth on our barren earth.

Glory to the Father who chose Mary in her humility.  Worship to the Son who in humility descended and dwelt in her.  Thanksgiving to the Spirit who likes to make his dwelling in the humble.  One nature, three persons, to him be glory. 

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2016, 07:23:59 PM »
I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

Quote
As the fire rested on the bush and the bush was not burnt, so God descended and rested on the Virgin.  He was pleased to take flesh from her and he did not break the seal of her virginity.

"What have I to do with you, O Jews?" Mary answered and said.  "I am kept sealed and I am no adulteress.  My Lord was pleased with me and I became his mother, and he sucked milk like an infant."

May all generations among all peoples call Mary blessed, who was worthy to become Mother to the Son of God.  He came forth from her while the seals of her virginity were kept unbroken.  Behold, the day of her remembrance is honoured in heaven and on earth. 

Like a flawless pearl, set in the crown of the king, is the Holy Virgin Theotokos: it is turned to all sides and its brightness shines like the sun.  Behold, the day of her remembrance is honoured in heaven and on earth. 

Qolo, Matins, Monday

Quote
Glory to the Son of God, who was pleased to come forth from the Blessed Holy Virgin.  By her ear she received him and she bore him in her womb.  He came forth from her womb and it remained sealed, confounding the unbelievers.  Glory to him who so humbled himself, glory to him who became a son of man, glory to him who saved his Church and, behold, she sings praise.

Qolo, Vespers, Wednesday

The just of old gave fair and lovely names to Mary, the Daughter of David, the Holy Virgin: Ezekiel the exile called her the Closed Door, Solomon (called her) the Garden Enclosed and the Sealed Fountain, David named her a City and Christ the Blade which shot up within it without seed.  He has become the Food of the nations and he has exalted her memory in heaven and on earth. 

Qolo, First Nocturn, Midnight Vigil, Wednesday

Glory to him who rested in the womb and dwelt there as he willed in his mercy.  Glory to him who came forth from the womb and its virginal condition was not corrupted.  Glory to him and to him who sent him, (glory to him) who humbled himself for our salvation and became man of his own will, that he might make us sons of his Father and partakers of his Holy Spirit.

Blessed are you, Mary, who gave birth to the living Son of God.  Blessed are you, Precious Vessel, in whom the Merchant descended and dwelt.  Blessed are you, Palace of Perfection, who received the Architect of the heights.  You bore him and your virginity was preserved, you brought him forth and remained pure.  Blessed is the Lord who came forth from you.

Qolo, Matins, Wednesday

Quote
O Solomon, fair child, what is that garden of which you sang, which was closed and sealed in its virginity?  "It is Mary from whom came forth the Gardener who planted Paradise."

Qolo, Matins, Thursday

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2016, 07:29:11 PM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 07:31:31 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2016, 08:00:01 PM »
Still waiting for evidence that Fr. Hopko said anything about the Thetokos's "seal".

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2016, 08:03:59 PM »
1. That the Virgin required Purification;

3. That the human soul is not eternal but dies when the body dies;

4. That Christ’s divinity is circumscribed by His humanity, rendering Him not omnipresent;

5. That Christ was ignorant of “many things”.

(1) is Orthodox.

(3) is Orthodox.

(4) probably takes "rendering Him not omnipresent" as implied by "divinity is circumscribed by His humanity." This does not follow in Orthodox Dyophysite Christology.

(5) is Orthodox, when completed with "while being omniscient", which Fr. Hopko did.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 08:04:18 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2016, 08:09:14 PM »
I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.
+ a million.
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2016, 11:49:35 PM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

For a pseudo-Christian, you sure make more than your fair share of ex cathedra declarations on faith and morals. 

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2016, 11:51:43 PM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2016, 12:07:22 AM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

For a pseudo-Christian, you sure make more than your fair share of ex cathedra declarations on faith and morals.

Yes I do. I believe in right and wrong and if I think something is wrong I'll say it. I'm not so nihilistic as to think that the earth is flat just because me service book says so.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 12:11:14 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2016, 12:08:08 AM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

EO Liturgy. I'm no longer convinced you OOs aren't heretics.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2016, 12:09:41 AM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

EO Liturgy. I'm no longer convinced you OOs aren't heretics.

I could make a similar list from "EO Liturgy", but keep moving those goalposts. 

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2016, 12:10:31 AM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

For a pseudo-Christian, you sure make more than your fair share of ex cathedra declarations on faith and morals.

Yes I do. I believe in right and wrong and if I think something is wrong I'll say it.
At least you've stopped purporting to teach Orthodoxy to the Orthodox. :P
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #84 on: March 24, 2016, 12:12:18 AM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

EO Liturgy. I'm no longer convinced you OOs aren't heretics.

I could make a similar list from "EO Liturgy", but keep moving those goalposts.

Well, then I guess I'm done with this cult.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #85 on: March 24, 2016, 12:19:29 AM »
I have no problem calling her "Unsealed" if that somehow means something other than an unbroken hymen. But if the Qolo means that, then I'm sorry but the Qolo is plainly wrong. This is getting into flat earth territory.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

EO Liturgy. I'm no longer convinced you OOs aren't heretics.

I could make a similar list from "EO Liturgy", but keep moving those goalposts.

Well, then I guess I'm done with this cult.

lol

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #86 on: March 24, 2016, 12:30:14 AM »
Ah, a ninja edit.

I'm not so nihilistic as to think that the earth is flat just because me service book says so.

You were the one who accepted "Liturgy" as an authoritative source of theology and promoted it over non-canonical texts, that is, until you didn't. 

Maybe your flat earth quip makes you feel enlightened compared to us, but it's rather silly.  Who is more of a fundamentalist on this question than you, who will apparently only accept one of two and only two answers when other, more nuanced possibilities exist that make sense of a tradition that's about a hundred times older than you are? 

But you go ahead and be done with a religion you never began.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #87 on: March 24, 2016, 12:45:27 AM »
Ah, a ninja edit.

I'm not so nihilistic as to think that the earth is flat just because me service book says so.

You were the one who accepted "Liturgy" as an authoritative source of theology and promoted it over non-canonical texts, that is, until you didn't. 

Maybe your flat earth quip makes you feel enlightened compared to us, but it's rather silly.  Who is more of a fundamentalist on this question than you, who will apparently only accept one of two and only two answers when other, more nuanced possibilities exist that make sense of a tradition that's about a hundred times older than you are? 

But you go ahead and be done with a religion you never began.

I was prepared to look for a nuanced answer, I've been saying that all along in this thread. Then you came along with your usual commentaryless quotes carrying the implication that an unbroken hymen was the only answer.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 12:48:02 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #88 on: March 24, 2016, 01:03:57 AM »
I was prepared to look for a nuanced answer, I've been saying that all along in this thread. Then you came along with your usual commentaryless quotes carrying the implication that an unbroken hymen was the only answer.

Not exactly.  You're comfortable with nuance as long as it meets your standards for what is acceptable and what is ignorant, flat earth cult fetishism.  IOW, you're not interested in learning from the Church on its terms, you're interested in validating yourself.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #89 on: March 24, 2016, 01:09:35 AM »
I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.

You should read what Symeon the Theologian says about Jesus.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.