Author Topic: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread  (Read 29195 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #270 on: April 06, 2016, 04:14:43 PM »
It depends on what a nature is.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #271 on: April 06, 2016, 04:16:07 PM »
It depends on what a nature is.
I know that by using the word nature in my paragraph, it may muddy the waters. That was not my intent. That nature is different than the meaning we use when speaking of Christ, but I didn't know how else to explain the comparison.
To do something by nature, do you mean "by second nature" as we say?
Yes, something like that. Although, I suppose it would be even more automatic than that. Something that we really can't help but do because it is a part of our functionality. Something that is second nature to us can be overridden. If riding a bike is second nature, I can still intentionally do poorly at it and crash my bike. Stuff like reflexes is something you can't stop doing even if you tried.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #272 on: April 06, 2016, 04:18:03 PM »
mmm...not quite.  I want to be honest, not make claims.  Even Grillmeier and Torrance, two of the greatest Christological theologians can't agree on interpreting Athanasius.  Can't claim I know better than them about the gospel on this issue.
Mina, you can't honestly say you've made no claims in this thread. None of this would be possible without claims.

I can say that I know that what Christ did, He did for me to partake of His glory.  But to what extent can I claim to know how to interpret His "ignorance" that I still am working my head around.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #273 on: April 06, 2016, 04:22:33 PM »
But to what extent can I claim to know how to interpret His "ignorance" that I still am working my head around.
As am I, but we must speak out against heretical formulations. You don't have to totally understand the Trinity to rule out Arianism.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #274 on: April 06, 2016, 04:27:30 PM »
I think Mina's point is that, if we're not really sure how to think about this, we should be a little more circumspect in labeling someone else's explanation as crypto-Eutychian.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #275 on: April 06, 2016, 04:30:52 PM »
Well I'm not sure how it all works out in the hypostatic union or whatever term you would prefer to use, but this is how I've understood the omniscience of God for a while. God knows everything including the knowledge of various experiences. However, experience itself is not a form of knowledge, which is why God decided to go through with creation despite knowing everything far in advanced. He wanted to experience it because it is in his nature to desire such. Been mulling this one over for a while. Not sure how coherent it is because by necessity it dictates that God's mind does not work like ours although I'm sure similarities abound, which I have no problem with. How Christ's mind interacted with his body and hence physical brain is impossible to know. I prefer this sort of framework, however, because it saves me the trouble of Jesus just going around and doing things and feeling things so he could just condescend us. I don't pretend to judge God, but such a position seems to depict him more as a some sort of a jerk. God didn't create us just to look down on us. Obviously, or so it seems to me, he wanted and wants some sort of intimacy.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 04:33:17 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #276 on: April 06, 2016, 04:32:41 PM »
It would seem problematic to me to say that God became man so He could experience it. That kind of sounds like someone going on an adventure vacation.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #277 on: April 06, 2016, 04:35:13 PM »
It would seem problematic to me to say that God became man so He could experience it. That kind of sounds like someone going on an adventure vacation.

It's mischievous sounding I know. But I still can't shake myself from the idea because it embodies the very creative nature of God unto which we all reflect.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #278 on: April 06, 2016, 04:46:35 PM »
I think Mina's point is that, if we're not really sure how to think about this, we should be a little more circumspect in labeling someone else's explanation as crypto-Eutychian.

Yes, exactly.

But to what extent can I claim to know how to interpret His "ignorance" that I still am working my head around.
As am I, but we must speak out against heretical formulations. You don't have to totally understand the Trinity to rule out Arianism.

I'm with you, but in this issue, there is a very narrow focus, and it needs to be taken with every care there is.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #279 on: April 06, 2016, 04:46:46 PM »
I think Mina's point is that, if we're not really sure how to think about this, we should be a little more circumspect in labeling someone else's explanation as crypto-Eutychian.
Iconodule, the faction I'm referring to makes very clear-cut, exclusive claims about how we have to understand Christ. In that case, it seems appropriate to call it out for what it is so that it doesn't spread around. I'm pointing out that such claims, if taken in the manner offered, really undermine Christianity in a way we can't accept.

One of them messaged me (an authority, not some random poster) when I was a catechumen asking if my priest had heard my Christology before my baptism, insinuating that it would prevent me from entering the Church. I'm not bringing this up to say we should be tit for tat or something, I'm saying that this isn't an agree to disagree issue.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 04:51:17 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Keble

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #280 on: April 06, 2016, 05:41:06 PM »
Quote
That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

Seeing as how the female "seal of virginity" is a myth, I'll side with Fr. Hopko on that one. She must have been ever-virgin in some other sense.

Like, in the sense that one actually uses the word "virgin". The whole "during" thing is particularly bizarre: to put it a bit bluntly, isn't someone coming out going to keep anything from going in?? Everything about the way perpetual virginity is talked about suggests that it's the idea of people who were grossed out by imagining sex and childbirth, much less doing it.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #281 on: April 06, 2016, 05:52:58 PM »
The whole "during" thing is particularly bizarre: to put it a bit bluntly, isn't someone coming out going to keep anything from going in??

lol
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Offline Remnkemi

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #282 on: April 06, 2016, 06:40:42 PM »
Quote
Christ did know when the second coming is. He specifically said, "the end is still to come" and "the end is near, right at the door". In fact, he told us that we will know too because there will be sign
Thats not really a good argument. Christ did actually specifically say that only the Father knew WHEN it would be. That is specifics. Christ saying it was going to happen is not specifics. Thats like me saying that I am going to buy a home one day. I will. I know I will. However I dont know WHEN it is going to happen. Ergo, you cant say I know when it will happen.

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Your example doesn't match. Christ didn't say the end is going to happen one day. He said when X happens, the end is not yet here; when Y happens, the end is right at the door. That is specifics. Just because he didn't give the answer we are looking for, i.e., a specific date or time, doesn't mean he doesn't know especially since he gives very specific details.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #283 on: April 06, 2016, 06:47:05 PM »
Quote
Christ did know when the second coming is. He specifically said, "the end is still to come" and "the end is near, right at the door". In fact, he told us that we will know too because there will be sign
Thats not really a good argument. Christ did actually specifically say that only the Father knew WHEN it would be. That is specifics. Christ saying it was going to happen is not specifics. Thats like me saying that I am going to buy a home one day. I will. I know I will. However I dont know WHEN it is going to happen. Ergo, you cant say I know when it will happen.

PP
Your example doesn't match. Christ didn't say the end is going to happen one day. He said when X happens, the end is not yet here; when Y happens, the end is right at the door. That is specifics. Just because he didn't give the answer we are looking for, i.e., a specific date or time, doesn't mean he doesn't know especially since he gives very specific details.

But He also straight up said that the Son of Man doesn't know. That's pretty specific too.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #284 on: April 06, 2016, 07:02:06 PM »
It doesn't say "Son of Man".  It says "Son" in both gospels, and some fathers assumed "Son of Man" (in some manuscripts, Matthew removes this part).  Luke on the other hand never mentions that "only the Father knows", but actually in continuation in the book of Acts makes it well known that Christ rebuked His disciples for wanting to know something that He Himself knows.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 07:02:24 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #285 on: April 06, 2016, 07:22:44 PM »
Oh, sorry. I missremembered that wording.

But I'm not sure what you're referring to in Acts. All I see is:

Quote
So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #286 on: April 06, 2016, 07:36:36 PM »
Ah, yes, this is the part, but the idea that the Son does know has been implied from this passage as well, even though it doesn't clearly say it.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Remnkemi

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #287 on: April 06, 2016, 07:39:22 PM »
Quote
Christ did know when the second coming is. He specifically said, "the end is still to come" and "the end is near, right at the door". In fact, he told us that we will know too because there will be sign
Thats not really a good argument. Christ did actually specifically say that only the Father knew WHEN it would be. That is specifics. Christ saying it was going to happen is not specifics. Thats like me saying that I am going to buy a home one day. I will. I know I will. However I dont know WHEN it is going to happen. Ergo, you cant say I know when it will happen.

PP
Your example doesn't match. Christ didn't say the end is going to happen one day. He said when X happens, the end is not yet here; when Y happens, the end is right at the door. That is specifics. Just because he didn't give the answer we are looking for, i.e., a specific date or time, doesn't mean he doesn't know especially since he gives very specific details.

But He also straight up said that the Son of Man doesn't know. That's pretty specific too.
Yes, of course. I was merely showing the gospels does say Christ does know when the end will be and Primuspilus' example doesn't apply. The point here, as Mina stated, is the gospels are confusing on this point. The next best thing is to research the fathers and the liturgical evidence. And when one of the most trusted fathers says the Christ does know but said "The Son doesn't know" so people will not fall prey to the antichrist, as well as many other EO and OO fathers that say the Christ does know, then I think we can safely conclude the original point that Christ does know when the end will be.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #288 on: April 06, 2016, 07:52:19 PM »
Ah, yes, this is the part, but the idea that the Son does know has been implied from this passage as well, even though it doesn't clearly say it.

How? That sounds like eisegesis? All it says is that the Father knows. It says nothing about what the Son knows or doesn't.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #289 on: April 06, 2016, 07:54:31 PM »
The whole "during" thing is particularly bizarre: to put it a bit bluntly, isn't someone coming out going to keep anything from going in??

lol

There was some televangelist who said that homosexuality was wrong because "you can't enter through an exit"!

The other thing Keble's comment reminded me of is a type of event horizon, which allows exit, but not entry.
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #290 on: April 06, 2016, 08:03:25 PM »
The whole "during" thing is particularly bizarre: to put it a bit bluntly, isn't someone coming out going to keep anything from going in??

lol

There was some televangelist who said that homosexuality was wrong because "you can't enter through an exit"!

The other thing Keble's comment reminded me of is a type of event horizon, which allows exit, but not entry.

Well, I certainly wasn't reminded of any of those things.  The comment sounded like that of someone who was confused on the teaching or simply didn't care, or perhaps preferred to caricature it. 
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #291 on: April 06, 2016, 08:06:09 PM »
Ah, yes, this is the part, but the idea that the Son does know has been implied from this passage as well, even though it doesn't clearly say it.

How? That sounds like eisegesis? All it says is that the Father knows. It says nothing about what the Son knows or doesn't.

The passage has been used, most famously by St. Athanasius as a contrast to the passages of "only the Father knows" to reveal that the Son really does know, but uses His humanity economically.  St. John Chrysostom also uses this passage to reveal the real reason why "the Son doesn't know" and to say that the Son really does know, but that He hides this information from all humanity.  "It is not for us to know" what the Father has assigned in His authority.

Just as the passage never says "Son of Man" even though this was implied by some Fathers.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 08:06:42 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #292 on: April 06, 2016, 08:10:44 PM »
Quote
That the Christ child opened the Virgin’s womb and broke the seal of her virginity (which, for the record, is refuted even by the most basic icon by depicting the three stars on the Virgin’s garment which represent her ever-virginity: before, during and after childbirth);

Seeing as how the female "seal of virginity" is a myth, I'll side with Fr. Hopko on that one. She must have been ever-virgin in some other sense.

Like, in the sense that one actually uses the word "virgin". The whole "during" thing is particularly bizarre: to put it a bit bluntly, isn't someone coming out going to keep anything from going in?? Everything about the way perpetual virginity is talked about suggests that it's the idea of people who were grossed out by imagining sex and childbirth, much less doing it.

"During" would refer to the idea that Christ passing through broke her hymen. We know now that hymens can break during nonsexual activity and that sometimes they don't even break during sex, but the ancients seem not to have realized this.

The more I think about it, I guess I'm ok with the idea that God preserved her hymen as a condescension to the ignorance of the day- though the fact that the belief that virginity has some absolute biological sign has caused a lot of suffering in patriarchal societies does give me difficulty to imagine that God would prop this belief up.

I guess it's just one more for the theodicy pile, though...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 08:12:38 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #293 on: April 07, 2016, 09:06:21 AM »
There is no reason to imply anything when Christ clearly says that only the Father knows. If the Father "informed" Christ after the fact, it still means that Christ, at some point did NOT know. If He did know, and said only The Father knows, either Christ would be lying, or the Sebellianists were right. Ill just take Christ at his words.

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"you can't enter through an exit"
I sure as hell can if it means I get a front parking space at Wal-Mart.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #294 on: April 07, 2016, 09:15:20 AM »
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #295 on: April 07, 2016, 09:59:03 AM »
There is no reason to imply anything when Christ clearly says that only the Father knows. If the Father "informed" Christ after the fact, it still means that Christ, at some point did NOT know. If He did know, and said only The Father knows, either Christ would be lying, or the Sebellianists were right. Ill just take Christ at his words.

Quote
"you can't enter through an exit"
I sure as hell can if it means I get a front parking space at Wal-Mart.

PP

That's not really a good argument.  If Christ on the Cross said "Why have you forsaken me", should we take that literally to mean that the Father became separate from the Son?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #296 on: April 07, 2016, 11:14:46 AM »
There is no reason to imply anything when Christ clearly says that only the Father knows. If the Father "informed" Christ after the fact, it still means that Christ, at some point did NOT know. If He did know, and said only The Father knows, either Christ would be lying, or the Sebellianists were right. Ill just take Christ at his words.

Quote
"you can't enter through an exit"
I sure as hell can if it means I get a front parking space at Wal-Mart.

PP

That's not really a good argument.  If Christ on the Cross said "Why have you forsaken me", should we take that literally to mean that the Father became separate from the Son?

Slightly off topic, but aside from fulfilling a prophecy in the OT, what exactly is the meaning of Christ's final words before death? I've never quite found an answer to this in any denomination that I have belonged to before.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:15:11 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #297 on: April 07, 2016, 11:47:55 AM »
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.

Same arg't used by Protestants to deny the real presence.

What makes better sense of the saying?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:52:09 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #298 on: April 07, 2016, 11:48:36 AM »
There is no reason to imply anything when Christ clearly says that only the Father knows. If the Father "informed" Christ after the fact, it still means that Christ, at some point did NOT know. If He did know, and said only The Father knows, either Christ would be lying, or the Sebellianists were right. Ill just take Christ at his words.
preach it
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #299 on: April 07, 2016, 11:54:27 AM »
There is no reason to imply anything when Christ clearly says that only the Father knows. If the Father "informed" Christ after the fact, it still means that Christ, at some point did NOT know. If He did know, and said only The Father knows, either Christ would be lying, or the Sebellianists were right. Ill just take Christ at his words.

Quote
"you can't enter through an exit"
I sure as hell can if it means I get a front parking space at Wal-Mart.

PP

That's not really a good argument.  If Christ on the Cross said "Why have you forsaken me", should we take that literally to mean that the Father became separate from the Son?

Slightly off topic, but aside from fulfilling a prophecy in the OT, what exactly is the meaning of Christ's final words before death? I've never quite found an answer to this in any denomination that I have belonged to before.
He fully identifies and enters into our estrangement from God while not forsaking communion with God.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #300 on: April 07, 2016, 11:55:07 AM »
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.

Same arg't used by Protestants to deny the real presence.

"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:55:48 AM by Iconodule »
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #301 on: April 07, 2016, 12:02:47 PM »
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.

Same arg't used by Protestants to deny the real presence.

"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.

Yeah I don't think anyone here is advocating the dichotomy of initial sense vs. Lie/metaphor/bad thing.

Christ saying he doesn't know the hour makes sense against his whole kenosis, both in time and in his perichoresis before the incarnation. Whatever asterisks we throw on can't totally gut the passage of its place within the whole sense we have of God and the incarnation.

We fudge things to fit the Gospel, we don't fudge the Gospel to fit things. That's the Orthodox ταξις after all.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 12:04:36 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #302 on: April 07, 2016, 12:06:09 PM »
Yeah I don't think anyone here is advocating the dichotomy of initial sense vs. Lie/metaphor/bad thing.

PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.

Quote
Christ saying he doesn't know the hour makes sense against his whole kenosis, both in time and in his perichoresis before the incarnation.

That's one way to make sense of it but I don't think it's the only (orthodox) one.

“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #303 on: April 07, 2016, 12:09:58 PM »
Yeah I don't think anyone here is advocating the dichotomy of initial sense vs. Lie/metaphor/bad thing.

PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.

Quote
Christ saying he doesn't know the hour makes sense against his whole kenosis, both in time and in his perichoresis before the incarnation.

That's one way to make sense of it but I don't think it's the only (orthodox) one.
Nor do I, but there are definitely some unorthodox ones.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #304 on: April 07, 2016, 12:17:02 PM »
I think St. John Chrysostom was of the opinion that this phrase "neither the Son" was one of many of Christ's hyperbolic phrases to not excuse the Apostles from knowing.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #305 on: April 08, 2016, 08:07:33 AM »
Quote
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.
Oh come on now. You know that is not what Im meaning.

Quote
"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.
Everything has context.

Quote
PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.
Im saying that Christ, in His two natures, could use which ever He wished as the need arose.

PP
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #306 on: April 08, 2016, 09:34:13 AM »
There is no reason to imply anything when Christ clearly says that only the Father knows. If the Father "informed" Christ after the fact, it still means that Christ, at some point did NOT know. If He did know, and said only The Father knows, either Christ would be lying, or the Sebellianists were right. Ill just take Christ at his words.

Quote
"you can't enter through an exit"
I sure as hell can if it means I get a front parking space at Wal-Mart.

PP

That's not really a good argument.  If Christ on the Cross said "Why have you forsaken me", should we take that literally to mean that the Father became separate from the Son?

Slightly off topic, but aside from fulfilling a prophecy in the OT, what exactly is the meaning of Christ's final words before death? I've never quite found an answer to this in any denomination that I have belonged to before.
Reference to Psalm 22 as a way to draw the minds of His hearers to what the Psalm says about Him?
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #307 on: April 08, 2016, 03:08:53 PM »
Quote
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.
Oh come on now. You know that is not what Im meaning.

Quote
"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.
Everything has context.

Quote
PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.
Im saying that Christ, in His two natures, could use which ever He wished as the need arose.

PP

Whichever of what?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #308 on: April 09, 2016, 02:54:34 AM »
Natural state and operation, I assume.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 02:54:53 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #309 on: April 11, 2016, 08:46:33 AM »
Quote
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.
Oh come on now. You know that is not what Im meaning.

Quote
"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.
Everything has context.

Quote
PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.
Im saying that Christ, in His two natures, could use which ever He wished as the need arose.

PP

Whichever of what?
His natures. Just like I have a left arm, and a right arm. They are in my one person. I cant decide that my left or right arm is a separate entitity, they are in my one personhood. However, I can use whichever I wish, when I wish.

Again, I could totally be off base here.

PP
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #310 on: April 11, 2016, 11:22:36 AM »
Quote
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.
Oh come on now. You know that is not what Im meaning.

Quote
"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.
Everything has context.

Quote
PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.
Im saying that Christ, in His two natures, could use which ever He wished as the need arose.

PP

Whichever of what?
His natures. Just like I have a left arm, and a right arm. They are in my one person. I cant decide that my left or right arm is a separate entitity, they are in my one personhood. However, I can use whichever I wish, when I wish.

Again, I could totally be off base here.

PP

I disagree with the analogy.  The two natures are not like two arms.  Rather I would say a better analogy would be blood vessels clothed with an arm akin to divinity clothed with humanity.  There is no choosing to use one or the other.  Both are always used.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #311 on: April 11, 2016, 11:39:44 AM »
There really are no good analogies for the incarnation.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

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Come look at my lame blog

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #312 on: April 11, 2016, 11:41:00 AM »
There really are no good analogies for the incarnation.
Totally agree.

PP
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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #313 on: April 11, 2016, 11:41:45 AM »
Quote
He also said "I am the true vine." Either he's lying or he is really some sort of vegetable/ human hybrid.
Oh come on now. You know that is not what Im meaning.

Quote
"I'll just take Christ at his words"- same arg't used by Protestants for, well, everything. "Call no man Father," 2nd commandment, etc.
Everything has context.

Quote
PP's dichotomy seems to be initial sense vs. lie/ sabellianism.
Im saying that Christ, in His two natures, could use which ever He wished as the need arose.

PP

Whichever of what?
His natures. Just like I have a left arm, and a right arm. They are in my one person. I cant decide that my left or right arm is a separate entitity, they are in my one personhood. However, I can use whichever I wish, when I wish.

Again, I could totally be off base here.

PP

I disagree with the analogy.  The two natures are not like two arms.  Rather I would say a better analogy would be blood vessels clothed with an arm akin to divinity clothed with humanity.  There is no choosing to use one or the other.  Both are always used.
As I said, I can be totally off base.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The Official Post-Mortem Hopko Disagreement Thread
« Reply #314 on: April 11, 2016, 01:54:44 PM »
Why I used the analogy is that no matter what happens, even when Christ does a human action, the divinity penetrates into that "mundane" action and deifies it.  Even if we can say Christ performed a divine action like a miracle, He still used a human touch or human speech to perform it.  Even if we were to stay Christ emptied Himself, the self-emptying is still filled with divine fullness.  Christ chooses the action, but any action He chooses to do is ALWAYS theandric.  This is also why our OO tradition have been so adamant about the principle of "one nature".
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.