Author Topic: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese  (Read 5275 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
Staggering' abuse cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic diocese, grand jury says

Hundreds of children were molested, raped and destined to lasting psychological trauma by at least 50 priests and others associated with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Altoona-Johnstown across half a century, a state grand jury has found in denouncing coverups orchestrated by two bishops and enabled by the law enforcement officials they controlled...

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 04:10:39 PM »
The scope of this is mind-boggling to me. I grew up in the Johnstown/Altoona area, which perhaps makes it more difficult to process; the people who live there are just 'normal people' to me--old fashioned, decent, small-town folk and all that. And there just aren't a lot of people there. Most of the counties are rural, with mostly little towns, and a small handful of cities--the largest city being about 45,000 people.  Hundreds of victims because of 50+ priests? There are only like 88 parishes in the entire diocese! (though probably over 100 before consolidation in recent years)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 04:11:16 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 04:19:41 PM »
I was going to say finally Kathleen Kane is doing something useful, but then I saw no charges are going to be filed, so...  >:(
God bless!

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 04:32:19 PM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable.
God bless!

Offline Tallitot

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,018
    • USCJ
  • Faith: Jewish(Conservative)
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 05:44:05 PM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable. Believable.
fixed it for you.
now i'll sit back and wait for the usual gang of apologists to come tell us that it isn't so bad, that it happens in other religious groups and that makes it ok.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,888
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 05:45:50 PM »
I grew up there as well.  I went to Bishop Carroll HS with some of the victims.  Priests that raised there voices were silenced, others left in disgust.  Bishops Hogan and Adamec really deserved/deserve jail.  I think Bishop Mark has been trying to make things right and he accepted appointment to this diocese knowing what would be coming.  Pray for all involved.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,370
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2016, 05:52:40 PM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable. Believable.
fixed it for you.
now i'll sit back and wait for the usual gang of apologists to come tell us that it isn't so bad, that it happens in other religious groups and that makes it ok.

Is this more vindication for your conversion to Judaism?
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Online rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,742
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2016, 07:38:50 PM »
The scope of this is mind-boggling to me. I grew up in the Johnstown/Altoona area, which perhaps makes it more difficult to process; the people who live there are just 'normal people' to me--old fashioned, decent, small-town folk and all that. And there just aren't a lot of people there. Most of the counties are rural, with mostly little towns, and a small handful of cities--the largest city being about 45,000 people.  Hundreds of victims because of 50+ priests? There are only like 88 parishes in the entire diocese! (though probably over 100 before consolidation in recent years)
In fifty years how many pastors did a parish have?
5? 10?
7 X 120= 840
So you are looking at maybe 60 priests out of 840, maybe under 1 in 10.
It's a significant figure, but not most of the priests.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2016, 09:16:58 PM »
The scope of this is mind-boggling to me. I grew up in the Johnstown/Altoona area, which perhaps makes it more difficult to process; the people who live there are just 'normal people' to me--old fashioned, decent, small-town folk and all that. And there just aren't a lot of people there. Most of the counties are rural, with mostly little towns, and a small handful of cities--the largest city being about 45,000 people.  Hundreds of victims because of 50+ priests? There are only like 88 parishes in the entire diocese! (though probably over 100 before consolidation in recent years)
In fifty years how many pastors did a parish have?
5? 10?
7 X 120= 840
So you are looking at maybe 60 priests out of 840, maybe under 1 in 10.
It's a significant figure, but not most of the priests.
There may have been 840 assignments, but not 840 priests. From what it sounds like, these priests were rotated around to a number of different parishes to keep their "indiscretions" a secret. If the average priest serves for say 30 years, that puts the number of priests at 200-300. That means at best, 1 in 6 priests were molesting children. I know I wouldn't be sending my kids to any church or organization where there was a 1 in 6 chance that the guy running it was a pedophile.
God bless!

Offline Tallitot

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,018
    • USCJ
  • Faith: Jewish(Conservative)
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2016, 12:37:41 AM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable. Believable.
fixed it for you.
now i'll sit back and wait for the usual gang of apologists to come tell us that it isn't so bad, that it happens in other religious groups and that makes it ok.

Is this more vindication for your conversion to Judaism?
I could practice Shinto, Hinduism, or convert to Christianity; my religious affiliation would have no bearing on the number of victims or the number of perpetrators.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2016, 01:18:06 AM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable. Believable.
fixed it for you.
now i'll sit back and wait for the usual gang of apologists to come tell us that it isn't so bad, that it happens in other religious groups and that makes it ok.

Is this more vindication for your conversion to Judaism?
I could practice Shinto, Hinduism, or convert to Christianity; my religious affiliation would have no bearing on the number of victims or the number of perpetrators.

Why do you make so much hay about these topics unless it's to tweak the noses of Christians for being Christians, though? I mean, I agree that the Roman Catholic hierarchy is likely broken beyond repair, but what does that say about Christianity itself? If you just want to make Catholics specifically feel bad, then why not do this on CAF or something instead of on an Orthodox site?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 01:18:40 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tallitot

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,018
    • USCJ
  • Faith: Jewish(Conservative)
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2016, 02:45:15 AM »
I didn't post this story, Asteriktos did.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2016, 02:47:11 AM »
I didn't post this story, Asteriktos did.

I know. You jumped on it, though.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 02:47:30 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tallitot

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,018
    • USCJ
  • Faith: Jewish(Conservative)
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2016, 02:49:53 AM »
So did you.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2016, 03:15:58 AM »
So did you.

Only to point out what you were doing.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2016, 09:42:21 AM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.
God bless!

Offline Adela

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,095
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2016, 10:17:47 AM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.


I totally agree.  The coverup was an additional astronomical crime.  Though, as a former Catholic, I do believe that somehow having a mandatory celibate priesthood might be a a draw for pedophiles, where they can find victims but not have wives/family observing closely their behavior.

There is abuse in all religions and professions.   Just look at how many teachers are abusing their students. It happened to a friend of mine in high-school, with a predator teacher who preyed on girls from troubled backgrounds.    But, finally a girl reported this teacher and he is no longer teaching.  It would have been even worse is this school tried to protect the predator instead of the victim. That's what makes a coverup so bad, the victim gets horribly abused, and then the institution circles the wagons to protect its image, while more victims are hurt.


This man, thankfully, was arrested and this caused the seminary to dismiss him.  But how can the discernment process be changed so people that want to have sex with babies are caught before they actually try to do their evil acts?   Something with the discernment process seems to be inadequate.
Quote
Former Columbus seminary student charged after allegedly trying to have sex with babies in Mexico
http://nbc4i.com/2016/01/29/ohio-seminary-student-charged-after-allegedly-leaving-country-to-have-sex-with-infants/

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2016, 02:09:40 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

I completely agree with you and I'm sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. It just seems like Tallitot has an ulterior motive given some of his other threads on this topic. But whatever, I'll drop it.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,370
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2016, 02:14:01 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

I completely agree with you and I'm sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. It just seems like Tallitot has an ulterior motive given some of his other threads on this topic. But whatever, I'll drop it.

I've read enough of Tallitot's posts here on OC.net to conclude that he does.  He appears to use these stories of such tragedy to justify his own religious preference. If you or anyone else want to be Jewish (or Shinto, or Buddhist, or whatever), fine, but don't use that to say, "Well, in my religion, we don't have that happening and therefore, better."  Now, Tallitot, you may not INTEND for it to come off that way, but it certainly can be PERCEIVED or INTERPRETED that way.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Online rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,742
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2016, 02:30:09 PM »
RE:  Tallitot's possible views on RC abuse

Quote
The Child-Rape Assembly Line | VICE | United States
www.vice.com/read/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11
Nov 12, 2013

On a visit to Jerusalem in 2005, Rabbi Rosenberg entered into a mikvah in one of the holiest neighborhoods in the city, Mea She’arim. “I opened a door that entered into a schvitz,” he told me. “Vapors everywhere, I can barely see. My eyes adjust, and I see an old man, my age, long white beard, a holy-looking man, sitting in the vapors. On his lap, facing away from him, is a
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2016, 02:38:29 PM »
Ok, now I'm REALLY sorry. It wasn't my intention to start the comparative scandal Olympics.

Please forgive me, Tallitot.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2016, 02:58:26 PM »
RE:  Tallitot's possible views on RC abuse

Quote
The Child-Rape Assembly Line | VICE | United States
www.vice.com/read/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11
Nov 12, 2013

On a visit to Jerusalem in 2005, Rabbi Rosenberg entered into a mikvah in one of the holiest neighborhoods in the city, Mea She’arim. “I opened a door that entered into a schvitz,” he told me. “Vapors everywhere, I can barely see. My eyes adjust, and I see an old man, my age, long white beard, a holy-looking man, sitting in the vapors. On his lap, facing away from him, is a
This actually brings up a good point. Rabbi Rosenberg has fought hard within his own community the horrible molestations that are going on. In order for such abuse to stop, the people within that community need to be the most vocal opponents of the abuse. If/when there is molestation in Orthodox parishes, not one should be denouncing it louder than Orthodox Christians. It should be combatted vehemently. Where there is molestation in Catholic parishes, Catholics should be vigorous in their fight against it. As Christians, we should not make excuses or blame the accusers. There are no excuses. There is only action that needs to be taken to make sure it never happens again. I hope we can all be like Rabbi Rosenberg and be warriors for those who cannot fight for themselves.
God bless!

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2016, 03:24:46 PM »
In order for such abuse to stop, the people within that community need to be the most vocal opponents of the abuse. If/when there is molestation in Orthodox parishes, not one should be denouncing it louder than Orthodox Christians. It should be combatted vehemently. Where there is molestation in Catholic parishes, Catholics should be vigorous in their fight against it.

As it so happened, here's a story in today's PPG...

Altoona businessman's crusade exposes 'conspiracy of silence'

As a small-town businessman, George Foster has immersed himself in civic causes over the years, serving as president of the Rotary, as a director of the Blair County Arts Foundation and as an advocate for Catholic schools at risk of closing. But his greatest community service may be his dogged, 14-year-long crusade against sexually abusive priests...

Mr. Foster, 55, president of a foundation set up to promote the Catholic faith through a radio station and television ads, put it this way: “God allowed the curtain to be pulled back because this is his church, and he’s trying to clean it up using us.”...

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2016, 03:32:31 PM »
God bless him. If only there were more like him.
God bless!

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2016, 03:49:43 PM »
Amen
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,742
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2016, 04:36:15 PM »
RE:  Tallitot's possible views on RC abuse

Quote
The Child-Rape Assembly Line | VICE | United States
www.vice.com/read/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11
Nov 12, 2013

On a visit to Jerusalem in 2005, Rabbi Rosenberg entered into a mikvah in one of the holiest neighborhoods in the city, Mea She’arim. “I opened a door that entered into a schvitz,” he told me. “Vapors everywhere, I can barely see. My eyes adjust, and I see an old man, my age, long white beard, a holy-looking man, sitting in the vapors. On his lap, facing away from him, is a
This actually brings up a good point. Rabbi Rosenberg has fought hard within his own community the horrible molestations that are going on. In order for such abuse to stop, the people within that community need to be the most vocal opponents of the abuse. If/when there is molestation in Orthodox parishes, not one should be denouncing it louder than Orthodox Christians. It should be combatted vehemently. Where there is molestation in Catholic parishes, Catholics should be vigorous in their fight against it. As Christians, we should not make excuses or blame the accusers. There are no excuses. There is only action that needs to be taken to make sure it never happens again. I hope we can all be like Rabbi Rosenberg and be warriors for those who cannot fight for themselves.
+1
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,888
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2016, 05:33:34 PM »
God bless him. If only there were more like him.
There were and are.  His brother, Fr James Foster, was forced out of the diocese for speaking out against the abuse as well as a cadre of sexually active homosexual priests in the diocese, as was Fr John Nesbella.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Tallitot

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,018
    • USCJ
  • Faith: Jewish(Conservative)
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2016, 05:37:49 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

I completely agree with you and I'm sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. It just seems like Tallitot has an ulterior motive given some of his other threads on this topic. But whatever, I'll drop it.

I've read enough of Tallitot's posts here on OC.net to conclude that he does.  He appears to use these stories of such tragedy to justify his own religious preference. If you or anyone else want to be Jewish (or Shinto, or Buddhist, or whatever), fine, but don't use that to say, "Well, in my religion, we don't have that happening and therefore, better."  Now, Tallitot, you may not INTEND for it to come off that way, but it certainly can be PERCEIVED or INTERPRETED that way.
Scam, please find a post where I said this never happens in some sects of Judaism. I don't recall ever saying that.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,888
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2016, 05:56:06 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

I completely agree with you and I'm sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. It just seems like Tallitot has an ulterior motive given some of his other threads on this topic. But whatever, I'll drop it.

I've read enough of Tallitot's posts here on OC.net to conclude that he does.  He appears to use these stories of such tragedy to justify his own religious preference. If you or anyone else want to be Jewish (or Shinto, or Buddhist, or whatever), fine, but don't use that to say, "Well, in my religion, we don't have that happening and therefore, better."  Now, Tallitot, you may not INTEND for it to come off that way, but it certainly can be PERCEIVED or INTERPRETED that way.
Scam, please find a post where I said this never happens in some sects of Judaism. I don't recall ever saying that.
You didn't say it but the only abuse articles you post are those that happened in the Catholic Church.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Online rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,742
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 06:39:22 PM »
God bless him. If only there were more like him.
There were and are.  His brother, Fr James Foster, was forced out of the diocese for speaking out against the abuse as well as a cadre of sexually active homosexual priests in the diocese, as was Fr John Nesbella.
Can you remind me - Do Byzantine or Ukrainian catholics in the US allow married priests?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,888
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 07:06:10 PM »
God bless him. If only there were more like him.
There were and are.  His brother, Fr James Foster, was forced out of the diocese for speaking out against the abuse as well as a cadre of sexually active homosexual priests in the diocese, as was Fr John Nesbella.
Can you remind me - Do Byzantine or Ukrainian catholics in the US allow married priests?
Yes.  Pope Francis removed the ban which had quietly been ignored by most Eastern Catholic jurisdictions since the late 1980s.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2016, 07:39:24 PM »
Eventually, police officers called with tips and to say he was on the right track.

I don't mean this as a knock on the police there, nor anyone else who was speaking up (as Deacon Lance mentioned), but when police personnel are contacting private citizens to report possibly life-shattering criminal activity, in the hopes that the private citizen can do something about it, you know you're up the manure crick, and it's not the clergy alone causing the problem to continue.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2016, 07:58:37 PM »
Eventually, police officers called with tips and to say he was on the right track.

I don't mean this as a knock on the police there, nor anyone else who was speaking up (as Deacon Lance mentioned), but when police personnel are contacting private citizens to report possibly life-shattering criminal activity, in the hopes that the private citizen can do something about it, you know you're up the manure crick, and it's not the clergy alone causing the problem to continue.
That isn't my quote, but I agree with you. That is just crazy.
God bless!

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2016, 08:21:22 PM »
That isn't my quote, but I agree with you. That is just crazy.

Oops! Sorry, I meant to quote your "God bless him" post, and then as part of a response comment on the quote I gave (which is from the article). In the end I decided to just narrow down my response to the comment in the article, but I forgot to change it so it was a generic quote rather than attributed to you.  :angel:

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,370
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2016, 10:20:31 PM »
God bless him. If only there were more like him.
There were and are.  His brother, Fr James Foster, was forced out of the diocese for speaking out against the abuse as well as a cadre of sexually active homosexual priests in the diocese, as was Fr John Nesbella.
Can you remind me - Do Byzantine or Ukrainian catholics in the US allow married priests?

I'm not sure why you bring this up, but if you're bringing this up to suggest that if marriage were available that these ephebophile/ pedophile priests would stop abusing young men and boys then that is patently false.  Men who are attracted to young men and or boys are not going to stop if women are made available.  I would suggest that men who have these inclinations are attracted to the priesthood because they think that a life of forced celibacy will maybe help them to control, restrain or repress their urges, but the opposite happens.  I don't think marriage of priests in the Latin Rite is the panacea many believe it to be.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2016, 10:57:22 PM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable. Believable.
fixed it for you.
now i'll sit back and wait for the usual gang of apologists to come tell us that it isn't so bad, that it happens in other religious groups and that makes it ok.


Ummmmm. No. No one is defending this. Its disgusting, just like the fact that you think someone is going to defend this is disgusting.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,370
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2016, 11:22:49 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake. Tallitot wasn't making hay on anything. It is a very tragic fact that many Christians try to minimize the horrifying nature of these crimes. I've heard personally people say that the kids "seduce" the priests, that it is only a small number of priests so the Catholic church shouldn't be singled out, that we should be willing to forgive and move on. The fact that at least two of these priests were still serving as of last month is a good indication that things continue to be rotten. The thing that makes the Catholic church so despicable in all this is that they actively protected these priests and worked to undermine the victims. These type of incidents happen in every organization, but any good organization will deal with it appropriately and root out the problems. If this happened in any Fortune 500 company in the US, management would have turned the employees over to the police posthaste. We should expect at least as much from leaders of Christian churches whether they be Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

I completely agree with you and I'm sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. It just seems like Tallitot has an ulterior motive given some of his other threads on this topic. But whatever, I'll drop it.

I've read enough of Tallitot's posts here on OC.net to conclude that he does.  He appears to use these stories of such tragedy to justify his own religious preference. If you or anyone else want to be Jewish (or Shinto, or Buddhist, or whatever), fine, but don't use that to say, "Well, in my religion, we don't have that happening and therefore, better."  Now, Tallitot, you may not INTEND for it to come off that way, but it certainly can be PERCEIVED or INTERPRETED that way.
Scam, please find a post where I said this never happens in some sects of Judaism. I don't recall ever saying that.

Maybe not, but we cannot deny that you seem to exult every time this happens in the Catholic faith. I don't think you're posting these things to bring them to our attention but because you seem to have genuine hatred towards the Catholic Church and/or the Catholic faith and/or the Catholic faithful.  Again, it is about perception and you are not helping yourself.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,225
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2016, 11:42:29 PM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable. Believable.
fixed it for you.
now i'll sit back and wait for the usual gang of apologists to come tell us that it isn't so bad, that it happens in other religious groups and that makes it ok.


Ummmmm. No. No one is defending this. Its disgusting, just like the fact that you think someone is going to defend this is disgusting.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Bill Donahue might defend it like he did with a similar story that broke in Ireland some years ago. Maybe the circumstances were different, but it doesn't seem that way to me. Please note, I'm not trying to bash Catholicism here, especially since I was an ardent Catholic when many of these stories flooded the press.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,888
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2016, 12:06:03 AM »
Some of these priests were still in active service as of earlier this month! Unbelievable.
Did you read the report?  Bishop Adamec destroyed files and didn't let the new bishop know about those with active accusations.  As soon as Bishop Marchak was notified he suspended the priests.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2016, 02:12:22 AM »
God bless him. If only there were more like him.
There were and are.  His brother, Fr James Foster, was forced out of the diocese for speaking out against the abuse as well as a cadre of sexually active homosexual priests in the diocese, as was Fr John Nesbella.
Can you remind me - Do Byzantine or Ukrainian catholics in the US allow married priests?

I'm not sure why you bring this up, but if you're bringing this up to suggest that if marriage were available that these ephebophile/ pedophile priests would stop abusing young men and boys then that is patently false.  Men who are attracted to young men and or boys are not going to stop if women are made available.  I would suggest that men who have these inclinations are attracted to the priesthood because they think that a life of forced celibacy will maybe help them to control, restrain or repress their urges, but the opposite happens.  I don't think marriage of priests in the Latin Rite is the panacea many believe it to be.

+1

There is one tried-and-true way to help prevent sexual abuse by people with those inclinations. Men who voluntarily undergo the procedure often end up describing it as the best decision they ever made, and it reduces the recidivism rate to near zero.

Has there been any discussion about whether Nicea's canon forbidding self-castration ought to be relaxed in this instance? It seems to be that the purpose of that canon was to prevent men with normal sexuality from castrating themselves. There were a lot of of people back then who thought that sexuality was inherently evil and that life as a eunuch was purer and holier; Valesians and other such extremists. The same idea would later resurface in Russia in the form of the Skoptsy. The purpose of the canon was to condemn those ideas and affirm that there was nothing inherently wrong with sexuality expressed within the limits set by God.

But this doesn't seem to apply in the case of a pedophile or biastophile, whose sexuality is inherently disordered already and cannot be expressed in a lawful manner.

Similarly, I suspect it wouldn't apply in the case of a man with testicular or prostate cancer who required castration for medical reasons.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2016, 02:41:55 AM »
Some of the comments on these articles are from atheists saying that religion, by its very nature, encourages this kind of behavior and that is why all religion is evil.

However, "organized atheism" (i. e., atheist conventions) have abuse scandals too.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2016, 03:12:26 AM »
Some of the comments on these articles are from atheists saying that religion, by its very nature, encourages this kind of behavior and that is why all religion is evil.

Yeah, I don't agree with that specifically. Authoritarianism comes in secular as well as religious flavors as you point out. Just look at the way the Academy and the political scene treats its own "heretics." The solution is not atheism as though that was some kind of escape from the general human tendency to form and abuse hierarchies.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2016, 03:51:11 AM »
Some of the comments on these articles are from atheists saying that religion, by its very nature, encourages this kind of behavior and that is why all religion is evil.

Ask your priest.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2016, 04:52:59 AM »
Some of the comments on these articles are from atheists saying that religion, by its very nature, encourages this kind of behavior and that is why all religion is evil.

Ask your priest.

Assuming you're right about Orthodoxy, why would you think that means that all religion is abusive by nature?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,504
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: 'Staggering' Abuse Cover-up in Altoona-Johnstown Catholic Diocese
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2016, 02:13:15 PM »
But this doesn't seem to apply in the case of a pedophile or biastophile, whose sexuality is inherently disordered already and cannot be expressed in a lawful manner.

I always learn something new about sexuality when I read OCNet.