Author Topic: Saint Question  (Read 830 times)

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Offline BLHutch

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Saint Question
« on: March 01, 2016, 10:44:09 AM »
Friends,

As I understand it, pre-Schism Saints are essentially the same for the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. (At least I was taught that they were many years ago by a Catholic priest, so please correct me if I am wrong). My question concerns Orthodox Saints.

Are Orthodox Saints the same across various Orthodox groups? Are Russian Orthodox Saints the same as Greek Orthodox, etc. Or are there differences? (ie: an individual cannonized by the Russian Orthodox Church or Greek Orthodox church that are specific to those churches.)

Thank you.

Lee
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Offline mike

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 10:57:32 AM »
Canonisation is a process in which a local Synod confirms a sainthood of an individual and sets official cult of him/her (prayers, date of commemoration etc.). Other synods may or may not include those saints into their calendars depending on their popularity or importance for their believers or other factors. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of saints and many of them are venerated only in one or a few of local Churches.


I have not heard however of any negative reactions of one synod against the canonisation performed by other synod like declaring those canonisations wrong or invalid. However there may exists problems with official venerating a saint that was not included by a particular synod (for example in naming a child after that person).
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 11:08:07 AM »
There are some saints that appear on some local calendars and not on others. Nicholas II and his family are probably not on the calendar of the Church of Greece (correct me if I'm wrong). Peter Mogila was canonized by the churches of Ukraine, Poland, and Romania but other churches don't commemorate him. For some reason Russians insist on referring to St Theophylact of Ohrid as "Blessed" though I'm not sure if this is meant to indicate "not quite a saint yet."
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Offline mike

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 11:17:12 AM »
Peter Mogila was canonized by the churches of Ukraine, Poland, and Romania but other churches don't commemorate him.

Russian Church accepted his canonisation by the Ukrainian Church 9 years after it was performed. The Ukrainian dioceses of the Ecumenical Patriarchate venerate him as well.
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Offline BLHutch

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 11:47:27 AM »
Thank you both for your information!

Lee
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 12:08:59 PM »
Not all Pre-Schism Roman Catholic saints are Orthodox saints, though. Some simply never made it to our calendars due to lack of communication (St. John the Wonderworker was known for recovering some of those) and some were problematic to Orthodoxy and/or to the Eastern churches (such as Pope Nicholas I).
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Offline ergro

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2016, 10:56:06 PM »
In general, yes, pre-schism Western Saints are generally considered Saints in the Orthodox Church as well. St. Patrick would be a great example. However, there is some controversy regarding the teachings of the pre-schism Western Saints - Augustine, for example, whom many Orthodox consider a Saint but disagree with his teachings. So always take things with a grain of salt, and when in doubt, always ask your Elder.

As for the second question. The Synods of each Church canonizes their own Saints. They are then included in that particular Church's calendar, but may not appear in the calendar of a different Church where he was less prominent. St John Jacob the Romanian, for example, was canonized by the Romanian Church many years ago and added to their calendar, however in the Jerusalem Patriarchate he was only canonized and added to the calendar less then a month ago. I have never heard of a Church objecting to another Church's canonization of a Saint; it's a very "to each his own" mentality.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2016, 11:14:08 PM »
Not all Pre-Schism Roman Catholic saints are Orthodox saints, though. Some simply never made it to our calendars due to lack of communication (St. John the Wonderworker was known for recovering some of those) and some were problematic to Orthodoxy and/or to the Eastern churches (such as Pope Nicholas I).

Not all Saints are on the calendar, certainly not on any given jurisdiction's calendar.

In general, yes, pre-schism Western Saints are generally considered Saints in the Orthodox Church as well. St. Patrick would be a great example. However, there is some controversy regarding the teachings of the pre-schism Western Saints - Augustine, for example, whom many Orthodox consider a Saint but disagree with his teachings.

I'm sure the vast bulk of St. Augustine would be very well regarded by the Orthodox. He was very prolific. The problems come from the Reformation taking him as a mascot when they found some shadings of his meaning useful for their own innovations. But no Saint so prolific could be without vulnerability.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 11:14:50 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ergro

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 01:05:38 AM »
Not all Pre-Schism Roman Catholic saints are Orthodox saints, though. Some simply never made it to our calendars due to lack of communication (St. John the Wonderworker was known for recovering some of those) and some were problematic to Orthodoxy and/or to the Eastern churches (such as Pope Nicholas I).

Not all Saints are on the calendar, certainly not on any given jurisdiction's calendar.

In general, yes, pre-schism Western Saints are generally considered Saints in the Orthodox Church as well. St. Patrick would be a great example. However, there is some controversy regarding the teachings of the pre-schism Western Saints - Augustine, for example, whom many Orthodox consider a Saint but disagree with his teachings.

I'm sure the vast bulk of St. Augustine would be very well regarded by the Orthodox. He was very prolific. The problems come from the Reformation taking him as a mascot when they found some shadings of his meaning useful for their own innovations. But no Saint so prolific could be without vulnerability.

I believe it's a concept of misinterpreting. What Augustine actually meant, and what the Catholic Church tries to point too in his writings as evidence, may be vastly different. Many Churches interpret the writings of the Saints in order to "prove" their own theological points. And, while I don't have any specific examples that come to mind, I'm sure that we Orthodox have done so too. All are guilty of sin.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2016, 01:12:31 AM »
True. And I myself detect seeds of what I dislike in his writings. I would much rather read the Cappadocians, or many others. But, on the other hand, he was among the greatest Fathers in the very important early question of what is Christianity, up there with Clement of Alexandria or the Cappadocians, not one of his commonly-cited works is not greatly important, and he shaped the West into its good as well as into any of its supposed ills.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline BLHutch

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Re: Saint Question
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 07:14:01 PM »
This has been a most enlightening discussion. Thank you to everyone.

Lee
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