Author Topic: State Church of Finland and the Calendar  (Read 2915 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« on: February 27, 2016, 01:07:57 PM »
I will never understand Old Calenderism. I wish everyone would either adopt the New Julian for everything or less ideally have the balls that the Church of Finland has. Yeah, a calendar made by a 2000 year old pagan dictator which hasn't lined up well with the equinox for centuries is divinely appointed.  ::)

To be fair, the Church of Finland had no choice but to go with the New Calendar because it is a state sponsored church.  Government's rules.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 02:30:39 PM by FatherGiryus »
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I disagree. I can't say "we" since I wasn't involved at that point but Finns had an option of going non-national church. That would mean no state-sponsored churches but IMO no big deal. The Early Church chose martyrdom so the situation in 20th century Finland  was quite easy compared to that.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2016, 04:39:03 PM »
Would becoming a non-national church mean total loss of state funding?  Does state status put restrictions on the Orthodox Church of Finland and is this state requirement to follow the new calendar/paschalion still in effect?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:43:19 PM by CarolS »
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2016, 05:14:35 PM »
Rohzek, what does accepting the Gregorian Paschalion have to with how courageous an archdiocese is?
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2016, 06:33:59 PM »
I will never understand Old Calenderism. I wish everyone would either adopt the New Julian for everything or less ideally have the balls that the Church of Finland has. Yeah, a calendar made by a 2000 year old pagan dictator which hasn't lined up well with the equinox for centuries is divinely appointed.  ::)

To be fair, the Church of Finland had no choice but to go with the New Calendar because it is a state sponsored church.  Government's rules.

But then, the ecumenical councils were all state-sponsored, too!
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2016, 07:20:58 PM »
Rohzek, what does accepting the Gregorian Paschalion have to with how courageous an archdiocese is?

Ideally the New Julian Calendar is just adopted. The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy. It's a herd mentality, which the Church of Finland chose to go against. I admire that. It will make the monks mad, but the monks have always, for better and for worse, resisted any change throughout Byzantine history.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 07:26:16 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2016, 07:30:27 PM »
Rohzek, what does accepting the Gregorian Paschalion have to with how courageous an archdiocese is?

Ideally the New Julian Calendar is just adopted. The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy. It's a herd mentality, which the Church of Finland chose to go against. I admire that. It will make the monks mad, but the monks have always, for better and for worse, resisted any change throughout Byzantine history.

If that's how you feel, then shouldn't you bare with the "weaker brother" and not insist on the New Julian when it offends some so much that it leads to schism? Why is being accurate to the secular calendar so important to you that you'll hold unity hostage over it?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 07:41:33 PM »
Rohzek, what does accepting the Gregorian Paschalion have to with how courageous an archdiocese is?

Ideally the New Julian Calendar is just adopted. The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy. It's a herd mentality, which the Church of Finland chose to go against. I admire that. It will make the monks mad, but the monks have always, for better and for worse, resisted any change throughout Byzantine history.

If that's how you feel, then shouldn't you bare with the "weaker brother" and not insist on the New Julian when it offends some so much that it leads to schism? Why is being accurate to the secular calendar so important to you that you'll hold unity hostage over it?

I'm not holding unity hostage over it, they are. To me, the calendar is a matter of astronomic accuracy, particularly when aligning with the equinox. I don't treat it as doctrine. I treat it, at best, as an ecumenical canonical issue. I and my fellow New Calendarists aren't the ones going around making historically inaccurate claims that the calendar made by a pagan before the birth of Christ is divinely sanctioned by God.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 08:39:24 PM »
The "New Julian Calendar" sucks. 
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 08:55:55 PM »
The "New Julian Calendar" sucks.

Even this argument is more rational than the doctrinal one.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 10:17:04 PM »
The "New Julian Calendar" sucks.

What is this?
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2016, 11:19:10 PM »
The "New Julian Calendar" sucks.

What is this?

My bad. I meant this whole time the "Revised Julian Calendar."
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2016, 02:01:43 AM »
Rohzek, what does accepting the Gregorian Paschalion have to with how courageous an archdiocese is?

Ideally the New Julian Calendar is just adopted. The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy. It's a herd mentality, which the Church of Finland chose to go against. I admire that. It will make the monks mad, but the monks have always, for better and for worse, resisted any change throughout Byzantine history.
Okay. What is your position on the Sigillion?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2016, 03:53:42 AM »
Would becoming a non-national church mean total loss of state funding?  Does state status put restrictions on the Orthodox Church of Finland and is this state requirement to follow the new calendar/paschalion still in effect?

Loss of state funding, yes. It might also have caused more severe predujice. Being Orthodox was politically suspicious those days since we'de just had our independence from an Orthodox empire and had a civil war with other side fighting for the same idea thad had won behind the Eastern border. The empire had just turned Communist but facts tend to have little effect on political demagogy.

As for the calendar, no idea. Doubt that but who knows what happends outside of memos and tv-screenings.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 03:57:27 AM by Alpo »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 11:48:57 AM »
Rohzek, what does accepting the Gregorian Paschalion have to with how courageous an archdiocese is?

Ideally the New Julian Calendar is just adopted. The larger point, however, is that holding unity hostage over something as dumb as a severely inaccurate calendar is somehow acceptable across large swathes of Orthodoxy. It's a herd mentality, which the Church of Finland chose to go against. I admire that. It will make the monks mad, but the monks have always, for better and for worse, resisted any change throughout Byzantine history.
Okay. What is your position on the Sigillion?

I think it addresses a lot of legitimate concerns, but I think it was an overreaction with regards to the Gregorian Calendar. It is understandable due to the fact that the pope just simply decreed it, although it took a while for it to be adopted across Catholic and Protestant nations. The issue was tied up with papal authority.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 05:55:10 PM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2016, 07:30:08 PM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.

Well, one could make the argument that the Old Calendar makes an observant life that much more difficult for people with modern jobs- for example when a working parent can't get time off to go to Church with their family on Old Calendar Christmas because their employer is only legally compelled to recognize national holidays.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 07:35:48 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2016, 08:53:54 PM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.

Well, one could make the argument that the Old Calendar makes an observant life that much more difficult for people with modern jobs- for example when a working parent can't get time off to go to Church with their family on Old Calendar Christmas because their employer is only legally compelled to recognize national holidays.

True, I agree. I've had some problems observing Old Calendar Christmas on Wednesday. But this should be a problem for folks in countries where the main religion uses the Gregorian Calendar, shouldn't it? It's made pointless in Greece or Romania, where the state could simply recognise January the 6th as the date for Christmas Eve, as does Russia.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2016, 12:25:50 AM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.

Well, one could make the argument that the Old Calendar makes an observant life that much more difficult for people with modern jobs- for example when a working parent can't get time off to go to Church with their family on Old Calendar Christmas because their employer is only legally compelled to recognize national holidays.

True, I agree. I've had some problems observing Old Calendar Christmas on Wednesday. But this should be a problem for folks in countries where the main religion uses the Gregorian Calendar, shouldn't it? It's made pointless in Greece or Romania, where the state could simply recognise January the 6th as the date for Christmas Eve, as does Russia.

I think so. I don't know from experience.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2016, 08:51:27 AM »
This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.

Greeks and Romanians. 2/15 is not "many:.

It's made pointless in Greece or Romania, where the state could simply recognise January the 6th as the date for Christmas Eve, as does Russia.

Jan 6 is not a public holiday in Russia (unlike Poland).
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2016, 09:44:00 AM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.
Schism was the result of lack of humility, that's what clearly new elders (st. Paisios, Cleopa, Arsenie Papacioc, Philoteos Zervakos etc.) state, adding, that's not question of dogma.

I see improvement - feast of Meeting of the Lord can't fall on Clean Monday in the revised calendar, so  it's not being moved anymore (as it happenes in the old calendar); Annuciation feast can't be in the Holy Week; there is a probability of more conversions, as it's much easier observing the feasts according to the new calendar; there is no thinking - is today 29th of February in my secular life and 16th of February in my religious life? - it's one life.

True, I agree. I've had some problems observing Old Calendar Christmas on Wednesday. But this should be a problem for folks in countries where the main religion uses the Gregorian Calendar, shouldn't it? It's made pointless in Greece or Romania, where the state could simply recognise January the 6th as the date for Christmas Eve, as does Russia.
It's interesting to notice that in countries with old calendar, except Georgia, much less feasts are public holidays (e.g in Russia it's only 1 day of Christmas, I don't count Pascha as it's the same according to both calendars; in Serbia it's only 1 day of Christmas, Meeting of the Lord - but the reason it's also a national feast of the Constitution and, only for schools - st. Sava day). There is no old caledar country, except Georgia, with free days on Epiphany, Dormition, st. Basil, second day of Christmas...

Edit: so, I always ask in such discussions - is it more important to celebrate according to the "old' calendar (I've written 'old', as there have been always regional difference among the feasts date, only Holy Week and Pascha should be celebrated at one time, plus the fixed dates of some feasts are very late thing, even from XIV century) but without possibility to attend the services and paratking the Communion or celebrate according to the new calendar, with possibility to attend the services?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 09:48:20 AM by Dominika »
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2016, 10:57:50 AM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.
Schism was the result of lack of humility, that's what clearly new elders (st. Paisios, Cleopa, Arsenie Papacioc, Philoteos Zervakos etc.) state, adding, that's not question of dogma.

I see improvement - feast of Meeting of the Lord can't fall on Clean Monday in the revised calendar, so  it's not being moved anymore (as it happenes in the old calendar); Annuciation feast can't be in the Holy Week; there is a probability of more conversions, as it's much easier observing the feasts according to the new calendar; there is no thinking - is today 29th of February in my secular life and 16th of February in my religious life? - it's one life.

Sure it's lack of humility from the leaders, but it is sad how they deviate so many pious people from the Church, many of which, at least from the ones I've met, don't even seem to be fully aware of what being in schism means. Anyway, I wasn't aware of the resolution of these coincidences under the new calendar, neither of this thing about public holidays. So there is an objective advantage.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2016, 12:28:12 PM »
I will never understand Old Calenderism. I wish everyone would either adopt the New Julian for everything or less ideally have the balls that the Church of Finland has. Yeah, a calendar made by a 2000 year old pagan dictator which hasn't lined up well with the equinox for centuries is divinely appointed.  ::)

To be fair, the Church of Finland had no choice but to go with the New Calendar because it is a state sponsored church.  Government's rules.

But then, the ecumenical councils were all state-sponsored, too!
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« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 12:28:26 PM by Orest »

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2016, 12:44:01 PM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.
Schism was the result of lack of humility, that's what clearly new elders (st. Paisios, Cleopa, Arsenie Papacioc, Philoteos Zervakos etc.) state, adding, that's not question of dogma.

I see improvement - feast of Meeting of the Lord can't fall on Clean Monday in the revised calendar, so  it's not being moved anymore (as it happenes in the old calendar); Annuciation feast can't be in the Holy Week; there is a probability of more conversions, as it's much easier observing the feasts according to the new calendar; there is no thinking - is today 29th of February in my secular life and 16th of February in my religious life? - it's one life.

[snip]

Edit: so, I always ask in such discussions - is it more important to celebrate according to the "old' calendar (I've written 'old', as there have been always regional difference among the feasts date, only Holy Week and Pascha should be celebrated at one time, plus the fixed dates of some feasts are very late thing, even from XIV century) but without possibility to attend the services and paratking the Communion or celebrate according to the new calendar, with possibility to attend the services?
The improvements you mention are only because two calendars are in use simultaneously. If the Revised Calendar were to be adopted fully (i.e. reset March 21 - the fixed date for the spring equinox that establishes the date for Pascha) then the Meeting of the Lord could fall on or after Clean Monday; and Annunciation could fall during Holy Week or even a bit later - including Pascha itself.

I agree with your comment about the difference between the Church calendar and the civil calendar. At Nicea, the Fathers clearly used the then current civil calendar (i.e. Julian) to establish dates. The Julian Calendar continued to be the civil calendar in all parts of Christendom until Pope Gregory XIII of Rome made his unilateral change - that eventually became the civil calendar throughout most of the world today. I don't see a problem using a civil calendar as a template for the Church calendar. (That being said, I do respect the conscience of those who have chosen to continue to worship according to the dates of the Julian Calendar - I think it's quite Orthodox to disagree but even more Orthodox to be respectful of those with whom we might disagree.)

In any case, it's quite fortuitous that this year we can celebrate the Annunciation here in Canada on March 25 as it is western Good Friday - a statutory holiday in most provinces - thus freeing people up to attend services.

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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2016, 02:08:47 PM »
A 13-day advance on moveable feasts shouldn't be enough for some self-righteous sects declare anathema on whoever engages in that change or is in communion with those who do. But why should we change our calendars on the first place? This change has fueled schism in the bosom of many jurisdictions with little to no improvement in our Church life.
Schism was the result of lack of humility, that's what clearly new elders (st. Paisios, Cleopa, Arsenie Papacioc, Philoteos Zervakos etc.) state, adding, that's not question of dogma.

I see improvement - feast of Meeting of the Lord can't fall on Clean Monday in the revised calendar, so  it's not being moved anymore (as it happenes in the old calendar); Annuciation feast can't be in the Holy Week; there is a probability of more conversions, as it's much easier observing the feasts according to the new calendar; there is no thinking - is today 29th of February in my secular life and 16th of February in my religious life? - it's one life.

[snip]

Edit: so, I always ask in such discussions - is it more important to celebrate according to the "old' calendar (I've written 'old', as there have been always regional difference among the feasts date, only Holy Week and Pascha should be celebrated at one time, plus the fixed dates of some feasts are very late thing, even from XIV century) but without possibility to attend the services and paratking the Communion or celebrate according to the new calendar, with possibility to attend the services?
The improvements you mention are only because two calendars are in use simultaneously. If the Revised Calendar were to be adopted fully (i.e. reset March 21 - the fixed date for the spring equinox that establishes the date for Pascha) then the Meeting of the Lord could fall on or after Clean Monday; and Annunciation could fall during Holy Week or even a bit later - including Pascha itself.
 
Yeah, but I'm for the "new style" (revised Julian), not for "Georgian" with some improvments for fixed dates from the revised Julian.
I support the current Paschalia used by the vast majority of EOs, at least for the next centuries.
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Re: State Church of Finland and the Calendar
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2016, 01:16:43 AM »
I support the current Paschalia used by the vast majority of EOs, at least for the next centuries.

I am not as pessimistic. When the Church starts to properly catechize the people and quits pretending that all received custom/usages are Holy Tradition, we will be able to finally have a unified calendar that reflects the praxis of the Apostolic Church.

The very first thing to do is to quit pretending the Old or New Calendar is the Church Calendar. The Lenten Triodion, Pentecostarion, and Menaia are the schedule of fasts and feasts, both immovable and movable, and thus constitute the yearly timeline for liturgical services or the Church Calendar. The menaia's start is the Ecclesiastical New Year or September 1st, while the other two pivot around Pascha and we all know the formula for calculating Pascha.

The problem starts with laying this Church timeline upon the civic calendar, the purpose of which is to approximate as closely as possible astronomical phenomena, such as day, week, month and year, as well unique events, such as the equinoxes, solstices, full and new moons; and, to help in regulating trade and work conditions, etc.  It really does not matter what civic calendar we use; the Church Calendar will work with any 365-day, 12 month calendar.

It does not matter, unless we want to emulate the praxis and thinking of the Apostolic Church--say of the Fourth Century. After all, we do proclaim that we are the Apostolic Church. However, if we only need proper Apostolic Succession to be Apostolic, then whatever we inherit from our most immediate predecessors would be just fine. The logical consequence of that would be to continue the current mess that we have in the Calendar issue. But, that kind of mindset, so similar to Roman Catholic thinking, affects other matters as well.

That kind of mind set condemns frequent communion as innovation, shies away from using the vernacular, among other things. So, unlike other folks who look at the calendar issue as a tempest in a teapot--a meaningless detour into astronomical accuracy, I look at it as a matter of being truly Apostolic, being faithful to the earliest canons, and ultimately, being respectful of God's time, which is the sequence of astronomical events.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 01:24:27 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »