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Author Topic: The Constantinian Order  (Read 2103 times) Average Rating: 0
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Simayan
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« on: August 04, 2005, 08:31:13 PM »

Well, I have a few questions about this and the Orthodox faith in general.

(1) Does the Orthodox Church recognize the leader of The Constantinian Order as an heir to St. Constantine?

(2) If a new Byzantine State was formed, would it have an emperor, and if yes, would this emperor be the head of The Order?

(3) Does the EP have control over the other Patriarchs, or are they all equal?

(4) Can an orthodox person be excommunicated?

(5) Is Orthodoxy in general a Conservative or Liberal religion?

(6) Why is The Constantine Order so close in actual distance and in term of friendship to the Pope? Shouldnt they be in Constantinople?

(7) Does Orthodoxy still see the Pope as one of the five Patriarchs?

(8 ) Ive heard you have to feast be be Orthodox. When is this, for how long, and is there a certain food that is forbidden altogether?

(9) Are the emperor and the Patriach considered equals?

(10) Is there a person higher than the Patriarch on Earth? (Excluding the emperor, if he even is higher)

(11) I was never Catholic, but I was raised and considered by my family to be one. I have always gone to a Catholic Cathedral, and only to an Orthodox one 2 times (Greek). Will I not be considered a "full" Orthodox Christian because of his?

(12) Do Orthodox pray the Rosary?

(13) I am going to Istanbul this summer. Do you think I will encounter hostility if I wear a cross in public?

Sorry for the many questions, but I want to have some key questions answered before I finalize my decision to become Orthodox.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 08:33:12 PM by Simayan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2005, 08:58:33 PM »

1) Hell No! The Constantinian Order is a Roman Catholic deal!

2) Probably. Byzantines can't get past the past.

3) All equal - although the EP has a place of prominence.

4) Yes

5) Depends on the jurisdiction

6) Because the RC's think they are all that!

7) Depends on the jurisdiction.

8) Nope you don't - although they recommend that you do.

9) Nope. The Emporer appoints the Patriarch

10) Only the Emporer

11) Nope. You are not Orthodox until you have been accepted into the Church via Baptism or Chrismation or economia

12) Nope. Although the Orthodox Church is corrupted by a "cult of mary"

13) Do what you want.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 08:59:02 PM by TomS » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2005, 09:08:17 PM »

Simayan,

I'll try to answer these as best I can, take it fwiw (which isn't much)...

Quote
(1) Does the Orthodox Church recognize the leader of The Constantinian Order as an heir to St. Constantine?

(6) Why is The Constantine Order so close in actual distance and in term of friendship to the Pope? Shouldnt they be in Constantinople?

I'm not sure what the Constantinian Order is?

Quote
(2) If a new Byzantine State was formed, would it have an emperor, and if yes, would this emperor be the head of The Order?

Regarding the first part, yeah I would assume that there would be an Emperor/Czar should the Byzantine Empire be revived. Then again, I've never given it much thought as I don't expect it to happen.

Quote
(3) Does the EP have control over the other Patriarchs, or are they all equal?

In theory they are equal. However, in practice this doesn't always work. It looks pretty petty to have people arguing over who sits where or who signs first, for example. Also, what if there is a dispute and calling a council is inconvenient, or a council has already been called and didn't solve anything? Because of problems like this, while the Ecumencial Patriarch is theoretically equal to all other bishops, in practice he has some powers that other bishops don't. So, they are all equals, but the EP is the first among equals. He has a primacy of honor, rather than a primacy of real power. He wields his primacy through the agreement of all his fellow bishops.

Quote
(4) Can an orthodox person be excommunicated?

Yes. Though that would be up to the bishop I would think. It's probably very rare for someone to come right out and officially and authoritatively be excommunicated.

Quote
(5) Is Orthodoxy in general a Conservative or Liberal religion?

Conservative. Though traditional might be a more accurate word, as many Orthodox would not identify with the "conservative" political movement in America.

Quote
(7) Does Orthodoxy still see the Pope as one of the five Patriarchs?

Generally speaking, no. Sometimes we call him a bishop out of politeness. Sometimes we do so out of ecumenicity. But, there was a schism in which (from an Orthodox perspective) Rome seperated herself from the Church, thus we do not consider her part of the Eastern Orthodox Church, thus she cannot be considered a Patriarch in that Church. However, we await her return to the Church, and the Orthodox hve not since the schism set up another Bishop in Rome (unlike Rome, who didn't mind setting up Latin Patriarchs when the Crusaders sacked Eastern Patriarchates and deposed the rightful bishops).

Quote
(8 ) Ive heard you have to feast be be Orthodox. When is this, for how long, and is there a certain food that is forbidden altogether?

I'm not sure which custom exactly this refers to. Asking a priest would be your best bet, as he would be giving the direction that you would have to follow were you to become Orthodox, and the customs at his parish might differ from the next one down the road on such matters.

Quote
(9) Are the emperor and the Patriach considered equals?

Well, there's no emperor, so this seems more like a historical question? In theory, no, the Patriarch is supreme in that he guards spiritual needs while the Emperor guards bodily needs (some saint or other said that, St. Photius maybe). In practice, the Emperors usually stuck their noses in the Church's business more than an Orthodox Christian would normally care to think about. Sometimes it worked out well, sometimes it didn't. But in theory, it should have never happened unless the Church asked the state to intervene.

Quote
(10) Is there a person higher than the Patriarch on Earth? (Excluding the emperor, if he even is higher)

Higher in what sense? Even a simple lay person can be higher in a certain sense, if they are more faithful and pious. Generally speaking, a Patriarch has a very great honor. Yet, if we read St. Ignatius, some of the amazingly honorific language that St. Ignatius applies to Bishops are also applied to (relatively speaking) lowly deacons.

Quote
(11) I was never Catholic, but I was raised and considered by my family to be one. I have always gone to a Catholic Cathedral, and only to an Orthodox one 2 times (Greek). Will I not be considered a "full" Orthodox Christian because of his?

Well, it is important to be "received" into the Orthodox Church if you want to be Orthodox. You can talk to the priest about this, as there are different methods for reception depending on different factors.  Generally you would be made a catechumen first for a period of time, and then later be received in a special service.

Quote
(12) Do Orthodox pray the Rosary?

Generally, not really, though that'd be something you could ask a priest about. Orthodox tend to do things like say Canons or Akathists, Pray the Hours, say the Jesus Prayer, etc.

Quote
(13) I am going to Istanbul this summer. Do you think I will encounter hostility if I wear a cross in public?

I'm sure someone around here can answer that... . .

Quote
Sorry for the many questions, but I want to have some key questions answered before I finalize my decision to become Orthodox.

Don't be sorry! Smiley Asking questions is a good thing. Better to ask them now and know what you are getting into, than to suddenly have questions pop up later and cause confusion and possibly doubts.

Justin
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2005, 09:21:43 PM »

In theory, no, the Patriarch is supreme in that he guards spiritual needs while the Emperor guards bodily needs (some saint or other said that, St. Photius maybe).

You need to read more history; the Emporers dismissed and excommunicated Patriarchs at will.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 09:22:57 PM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2005, 09:40:37 PM »

Quote
You need to read more history; the Emporers dismissed and excommunicated Patriarchs at will.

The soldiers put Christ to death. Does that mean they were higher than Him?
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Simayan
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2005, 09:50:02 PM »

Paradosis, the head of The Constantinian Order is suppost to be the heir of St. Constantine, and the next emperor of Constaninople, at least in the RC sense. It comes complete with an Imperial Byzantine Ball in Palm Beach every summer too, LOL.

Also, I have heard some people predict that Istanbul will be returned to the Greeks, or simply become a religious state, like Vatican City, as Revelation mentions a "city on seven hills", so many have concluded this was Rome. So, I am wondering, is Greece currently attempting to bring back the province of Thrace into their country?
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 09:58:17 PM »

TomS

Yes, I'm aware of that, even regarding some unfortunate civil laws. That doesn't negate what I said about what the principles of the Church were, and what the practicalities sometimes were. And in the end, Tom, Orthodoxy triumphs. I'll give two notable examples: St. John Chrysostom and St. Photius, the former overcoming an Emperor after death and forcing him to give a tear-filled apology for what had been done to St. John, and the latter suffering through all his persecutions and eventually becoming Patriarch a second time Smiley Not all unnecessary involvement by Emperors ended so nicely, all ready to be set forth in hagiography; but nonetheless, in the end, Orthodoxy Triumphs. One of our Sunday's says so! Grin
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2005, 10:03:55 PM »

My 0.02$: I think Orthodoxy should end it's requirements of episcopal support from civil governments (aka, Caesaro-Papist model of Church governance). You'd probably have to change a few canons, but it would be worth it (and there would be less to do over the Jerusalem patriarchate).
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2005, 10:08:38 PM »

The soldiers put Christ to death. Does that mean they were higher than Him?

Read your history.
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Simayan
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 10:22:04 PM »

*Sigh* Yet another question I just remembered. How should you greet a priest? Ive read that you should kneel and kiss their hand, but Im not sure. Is there a site where they have this information?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 10:22:19 PM by Simayan » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 11:59:15 PM »

You need to read more history; the Emporers dismissed and excommunicated Patriarchs at will.

The emperor could not excommunicate, but he could exile and pressure the Synod to Excommunicate, which he did.

I believe it was St. Constantine who when appealed to by someone disatisfied by a decision of the Synod of the Great Church accused the person appealing to him of Blasphemy for appealing 'from God to man.' But, this was a case where he was in full support of the decrees of the Bishops, had he disagreed he may have reacted differently. In theory, the Bishops are Lords of Spiritual and Emperors of the material, and since the Spirit takes precedence to the Flesh, the Bishops are the Greater Authorities, and one can find many emperors attesting to this. In practice, they tended to use their influence and power to guide the Church in the direction they want to go, often with rather direct interference. Also, the Emperor did not technically appoint Patriarchs either, he just had substantial influence over the decisions of the Synod at times.
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2005, 12:15:37 AM »

Quote
How should you greet a priest?

A simple "hello Fr. So-and-so" is fine. If he isn't otherwise engaged and you are just seeing him for the first time that day, it's good to ask for a blessing. Just cup your hands in front of you, and ask him for a blessing (he will bless you and then put his hand in your cupped hands, at which point you can kiss his hand--which signifies respect and gratitude). Just don't ask for a blessing from a priest if a bishop is around, out of respect for the office of bishop.
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2005, 12:16:15 AM »

Quote
*Sigh* Yet another question I just remembered. How should you greet a priest? Ive read that you should kneel and kiss their hand, but Im not sure. Is there a site where they have this information?

Clergy Etiquette..
Quote
When we approach an Orthodox Presbyter or Bishop (but not a Deacon), we make a bow by reaching down and touching the floor with our right hand, place our right hand over the left (palms upward), and say: "Bless, Father" (or "Bless, Your Grace," or "Bless, Your Eminence," etc.). The Priest or Bishop then answers, "May the Lord bless you," blesses us with the Sign of the Cross, and places his right hand in our hands. We kiss then his hand.

We should understand that when the Priest or Bishop blesses us, he forms his fingers to represent the Christogram "ICXC" a traditional abbreviation of the Greek words for "Jesus Christ" (i.e., the first and last letters of each of the words "IHCOYC XRICTOC"). Thus, the Priest's blessing is in the Name of Christ, as he emphasizes in his response to the believer's request for a blessing

more from here....
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_etiquette.aspx

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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2005, 02:25:54 AM »

As for wearing a cross in Istanbul. Don't worry about that at all. I was there less than two weeks ago. For the most part, people just want your money(i.e. to buy their overpriced goods, especially carpets), and could really care less about your religion.
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2005, 04:02:15 AM »

As for wearing a cross in Istanbul. Don't worry about that at all. I was there less than two weeks ago. For the most part, people just want your money(i.e. to buy their overpriced goods, especially carpets), and could really care less about your religion.

I just hope your surname doesn't resemble a Cypriot surname as they refuse to allow Cypriots into Turkey. A friend of ours went there a few years ago and the Turkish official was spewing, because although her surname is one of the most common in Cyprus, she was entering Turkey on a British passport. He actually threw her passport back at her after he had stamped it.
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2005, 09:26:11 AM »

*Sigh* Yet another question I just remembered. How should you greet a priest? Ive read that you should kneel and kiss their hand, but Im not sure. Is there a site where they have this information?

Once again - depends on the jurisdiction. If you try to kiss the hand of my GOA priest - he tell you that it is only appropriate when he is performing a service. He will not let you do it if you meet him in his office or outside the church.
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2005, 09:55:04 AM »

The Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St. George is a Catholic Order of Chivalry under the royal deputation of His Royal Highness the Infante of Spain Don Carlos of Bourbon-Two Sicilies & Bourbon-Parma, Duke of Calabria, Count of Caserta who is also Grand Master of Order.

The Constantinian refernce is to the ideal that all oders of chivalry owe their institution to St. Constantine and his creation of a guard for the Labarum bearing the Holy Monogram: XP.  HRH Don Carlos does factor into claims on the Royal House of Spain but has never made any pretention to being in line for the Byzantine throne.

http://www.constantinianorder.org
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2005, 06:44:08 PM »

Depends on the priest, Tom.  I've met many priest of all kinds across multiple jurisdictions on this matter. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2005, 06:59:43 PM »

The Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St. George is a Catholic Order of Chivalry under the royal deputation of His Royal Highness the Infante of Spain Don Carlos of Bourbon-Two Sicilies & Bourbon-Parma, Duke of Calabria, Count of Caserta who is also Grand Master of Order.

The Constantinian refernce is to the ideal that all oders of chivalry owe their institution to St. Constantine and his creation of a guard for the Labarum bearing the Holy Monogram: XP.ÂÂ  HRH Don Carlos does factor into claims on the Royal House of Spain but has never made any pretention to being in line for the Byzantine throne.

http://www.constantinianorder.org

Thank you sir.  Me thinks Simayan got confused with this and the fact that St. Constantine legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire and plays a role as a prominent saint.
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2005, 09:04:51 PM »

A simple "hello Fr. So-and-so" is fine. If he isn't otherwise engaged and you are just seeing him for the first time that day, it's good to ask for a blessing. Just cup your hands in front of you, and ask him for a blessing (he will bless you and then put his hand in your cupped hands, at which point you can kiss his hand--which signifies respect and gratitude). 
Also, we are kissing the hand that touches the mysteries ( body and blood).
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