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Author Topic: The Ecumenical Patriarch.  (Read 5035 times) Average Rating: 0
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Friarmoo32
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« on: August 03, 2005, 10:10:30 AM »

Alright, as you know I'm not Orthodox and am Roman Catholic, so I don't know what's going on with this particular controversial issue.  What has been going on with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?  I have been seeing for a while now so many Orthodox Christians angry or in dismay of him, what has been going on?  I also heard something or other about the Greek Orthodox Church and controversy over something they did, could someone shed light to me?  Sorry if this is naive but I just would like to know.  Thanks for any answers.


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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 10:19:09 AM »

The topic might be a little too broad here and devolve into EP-bashing, a not-unknown-sport of internet fora. Perhaps you could be more specific?

I'll just sit back awhile and let the sparks n' fur fly  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 10:32:39 AM »

I dont know what else I can say.  Maybe just what are some things he has done that have made people so angry?  And also waht the Church in Greece did, if they did anything that is.
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 10:38:36 AM »

Yeah, Aristokles, I also was reluctant on how to explain the entire topic of the EP.

Just remember, Friarmoo---on this board there is one prominent supporter of His All Holiness Bartholomew, who we all must admit has been given precedence of honor by Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon equal in all things with the Bishop of Rome. Now, since Rome has left the Orthodox Church's embrace, Constantinople clearly holds precedence of honor within the Church.

That being said, the Orthodox Church has never given His Holiness western-style papal authority because that entire monarchical government is foreign to us from an ecclesial viewpoint.

The majority of posters here will support this viewpoint as well as make multiple attacks on the given poster's writing style plus what they read into his posts. They have inquired into his ancestry, which no one else here has had to endure such indignity, and so far have stopped short of accusing his mother of immoral behavior. However, please note I wrote 'so far'...

The truth will be in the middle.

Regarding the Greece thing....I am curious as to how this is explained on this board. I have discussed this matter with two members of the clergy who serve now or in the past at the Phanar, and I am curious to see how the general populace, especially those not tied to the Greek church, perceive this matter.
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 10:57:56 AM »

As a catachumen who attends a GOA parish, it concerns me when there are disparaging remarks about the EP and  his jurisdiction.  I have been assured by a few on this forum that I need not worry about this...and it is only political in-fighting....and that all the Orthodox branches have the same faith.  However, I cannot help but be uneasy about all the disagreements on ecumenism.  I depend on my spiritual father to warn me if there are some hierarchs  who are not adhering to the faith.  Since I am relatively new to Orthodoxy I would be lost without some guidance.  As far as I know, the EP is still Orthodox and considered the greatest among equals of the Patriarchs.  So until he has canonically or doctrinally strayed from the True Church, then I will remain under his providence.

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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2005, 11:02:33 AM »

Quote
I depend on my spiritual father to warn me if there are some hierarchs who are not adhering to the faith. Since I am relatively new to Orthodoxy I would be lost without some guidance.

The most important thing is to do what you wrote above. Listen to your spiritual father, and discuss with him the concerns you have. Pray over things, and continue your catechumenate.

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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2005, 11:16:03 AM »

  Many thanks to you Chris.   Smiley  I have yet to ask my spiritual father if I should even be participating on this forum. 
  He probably will tell me to stop.  I come here because I want to be able to talk to some others who are struggling   
  on the same narrow path.  I try to steer clear of the "petty" debates.    God bless you,   Juliana
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2005, 12:02:05 PM »

I also heard something or other about the Greek Orthodox Church and controversy over something they did, could someone shed light to me?ÂÂ

Brief history:
The Church in what is now called "Greece" was part of the Church of Constantinople, the New Rome.
The people living there identified themselves as "Romans" (Romii), and still do,
The Ottoman Turks invaded Constantinople in the fifteenth century and occupied the Balkans for 400 years, and called the Balkans (including what is now Greece) "Rumeli" ("Land of the Romans").
The Church continued under Ottoman Rule, despite difficulties.
Then came the "Greek Revolution" in the nineteenth century in which the Turkish Yoke was cast off.
The Greek Bishops obtained Autocephaly from Constantinople (which was still under the Turkish yoke).
The Balkan Wars then took place in 1912, and more lands in the north of Greece were liberated and were called the "New Lands".
Under an agreement between the Church of Greece and Ecumenical Patriarchate, the "New Lands" which include most of the Islands and the Northern parts of Greece were placed under the juristiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
In 2003, two Metroplolitans of the New Lands died. When The Ecumenical Patriarchate requested that the list of candidates for their successors be forwarded to it- the Church of Greece refused, stating that it would compromise it's Autocephaly. The Patriarchate insisted that the New Lands were it's juristiction (which, in fact, they are), and the Church of Greece's position was seen by the Patriarchate as "juristictional expansion".




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Christe Eleison!


« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2005, 01:47:36 PM »

Ahh I see...so is it a thing where the Orthodox Christians are afraid of maybe this Patriarch will begin to see himself as a Pope and hence having "Papal Orthodoxy" or something of that sort?
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 05:28:43 AM »

Not really.

We need to keep in mind that a Patriarchate is still a Synod, and the Patriarch is merely the President of the Synod, but the Authority rests with the Synod. A Synod has the power to depose it's own Patriarch, as we have seen in Jerusalem only this year. The concilliar nature of the Orthodox Church does not really allow for the formation of a "Papacy" in the sense that the Patriarch is able to act independantly of his Synod. Even the appointments of bishops are made Synodically.

In this recent spat between the Church of Greece and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, it is really the Church of Greece whichis at fault by denying the Patriarchate it's rights and extending it's authority into the New Lands. The New Lands are home to the vast majority of descendants of Pontians (including my grandparents) who were driven out of Asia Minor by the Turks in 1922, and they have a strong affiliation with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and resent the Church of Greece's recalcitrant stand towards the Patriarchate on the recent issue of the candidates for succession of two New Land Metroplolia.
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 05:52:23 AM »

What constitutes a thread that "devolve into EP-bashing"?  Is the Patriarchate above criticism?  Are numerous bishops and the holy comunity of Mt. Athos EP-bashers?

I would say that that Athonite monastics that singed various letters over the past few decades protesting the actions of the Patriarchate are her most ardent supporters in that they want to preserve the Patriarchate from any blemish.  But I suppose pointing out the emperor's clothes is contrued as bashing by some. 
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 09:12:54 AM »

What constitutes a thread that "devolve into EP-bashing"?ÂÂ  Is the Patriarchate above criticism?ÂÂ  Are numerous bishops and the holy comunity of Mt. Athos EP-bashers?

I would say that that Athonite monastics that singed various letters over the past few decades protesting the actions of the Patriarchate are her most ardent supporters in that they want to preserve the Patriarchate from any blemish.ÂÂ  But I suppose pointing out the emperor's clothes is contrued as bashing by some.ÂÂ  


If you take a close look, Silouan, reply #10 above is a good start of the devolution. Thanks for proving the point. Wanna hijack Friarmoo's topic, or what?

However, I do see you've only been registered here (with this username) for a couple of months. Stick around for a couple of years...  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 03:56:51 PM »

My reply was a direct reply to something you had previously said, so it is hardling sidetracking the thread.  I think it is important to differentiate blatent anti- Greek attacks upon the Greek Church and valid criticisms of the actions of those within the Church. 

As you know, I won't be sticking around here long though...but everything involving school is sort of turning into a giant mess, so it is up in the air if I will even be going now. 
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2005, 09:36:18 AM »

The line between bashing and asking questions is very fine my friends. What's bashing the EP to you might be an honest question. But all that aside to answer the original question, the EP has made some "interesting" proclaimations during his time. Including, but not limited to: Refusing to meet with the party of Fr. Peter Gilquist, Fr. Gordon Walker, John Braun, and others as they approached him to join the GOA. For those of you who want proof of this, read Fr. Gilquist's book. Refusing to recognize the OCA as an Autocephalus church, asking for sums of money on various occasions for various reasons, etc. If I had time, I'd list a few more, but I have to get to work.

Peace to all,

Nick
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2005, 10:12:05 AM »

The line between bashing and asking questions is very fine my friends. What's bashing the EP to you might be an honest question. But all that aside to answer the original question, the EP has made some "interesting" proclaimations during his time. Including, but not limited to: Refusing to meet with the party of Fr. Peter Gilquist, Fr. Gordon Walker, John Braun, and others as they approached him to join the GOA. For those of you who want proof of this, read Fr. Gilquist's book. Refusing to recognize the OCA as an Autocephalus church, asking for sums of money on various occasions for various reasons, etc. If I had time, I'd list a few more, but I have to get to work.

Peace to all,

Nick

Well, Nickman
I do recall reading of the Evangelical Orthodox's treatment by the previous EP. It did seem odd. It should have been handled more politely, to be sure.
Obviously the Hellenic-Turks constituting the Synod had no experience in handling 2000 American converts en masse. I am sure thoughts such as 'How do we teach Greek to so many at one time?'   Wink ran through their minds. In the end, the group was better off with the Antiochians.
The OCA thing seems troublesome to be certain; but Moscow gave the most unusual autocephalcy I've ever read. We all know the EP cannot recognize this without giving up the GOAA. BUT that right now would be a disaster- the Greeks here, despite their own calls for their own autonomy/autocephalous, would still resist unity (sad to say, but true). Hence, the EP takes the heat but the alternatives right now look fraught with pitfalls.
As to support for the EP and money. Are you certain the Patriachate has any other method of support other than asking for it? If I recall correctly, ACROD (under the EP) only sends the proceeds from the free-will offering taken or asked once a year - and it ain't much.
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2005, 11:39:10 AM »

The line between bashing and asking questions is very fine my friends. What's bashing the EP to you might be an honest question.

And 99% of the time, it seems, that like gets crossed in the course of these discussions; and not just by a couple of steps.

Quote
But all that aside to answer the original question, the EP has made some "interesting" proclaimations during his time. Including, but not limited to: Refusing to meet with the party of Fr. Peter Gilquist, Fr. Gordon Walker, John Braun, and others as they approached him to join the GOA. For those of you who want proof of this, read Fr. Gilquist's book.

Considering some of the problems the Antiochians have had with the former evangelical orthodox, in hind sight we can see that the reaction of the Oecumenical Throne was probably a wise and prudent one.

Quote
Refusing to recognize the OCA as an Autocephalus church,

Perhaps the OCA should had asked the Oecumenical Patriarchate for Autocephaly, as they were instructed to do by Moscow, before declaring it; furthermore, Constantinople is far from the only Church that does not recognize the Autocephaly of the OCA, in fact I dont believe any Orthodox Church other than Moscow recognizes it.

Quote
asking for sums of money on various occasions for various reasons,

Please, do tell, how else does any non-state-supported Church get the money it needs to operate?
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2005, 01:05:12 PM »

Quote
Perhaps the OCA should had asked the Oecumenical Patriarchate for Autocephaly...

Why should the Metropolia have asked the Ecumenical Patriarchate for autocephaly, when they had absolutely no jurisdictional claim to that body? This is the sort of neo-papal attitude that gets people upset at the EP. Most Orthodox want to rever the Ecumenical Throne and grant it its proper place as first among equals, but when the EP claims direct jurisdiction everywhere, folks become reluctant to do that. And who can blame them? The Church of Russia asserted its own autocephaly from Constantinople, which did not recognize it for quite some time. Canonical matters are not always as cut-and-dry in reality as they are on paper. The Ecumenical Patriarchate (and in particular, Patriarch Bartholomew, as expressed at the OCA's 14th All-American Council) is the major obstacle to Orthodox unity in this country and in the world. You don't know how it pains me to say this, or how look it took for me to admit it, but it is entirely true. Call me an EP-basher if you must. To be honest, I'm surprised Bartholomew didn't throw a fit when the Patriarchate of Antioch granted self-ruled status to its North American Archdiocese. He jumped down +Demetrios' throat for allowing Metropolitan Philip to speak about American Orthodox unity at the GOA Clergy-Laity Conference.
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2005, 01:18:17 PM »

Friarmoo,
I think the others have answered your question, but it was awefully vague - especially when for example, a Patriarchate refers to itself at the "Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of...." with several options.


Quote from: Silouan
Is the Patriarchate above criticism?
I think THIS is one of the most important questions.  It seems that there are many who think their Primate is above criticism (not just referring to GiC).

[quote author=Αριστοκλής]
If you take a close look, Silouan, reply #10 above is a good start of the devolution.
[/quote]
No way, we haven't even started....unless you keep referring to the slippery slope falacy.
[quote author=Αριστοκλής]
The OCA thing seems troublesome to be certain; but Moscow gave the most unusual autocephalcy I've eveautocephalyll know the EP cannot recognize this without giving up the GOAA. BUT that right now would be a disaster- the Greeks here, despite their own calls for their own autonomy/autocephalous, would still resist unity (sad to say, but true). Hence, the EP takes the heat but the alternatives right now look fraught with pitfalls.
[/quote]
Please elaborate on this, I was probably not even born when the OCA got their Autocephaly.

[quote author=Αριστοκλής]
As to support for the EP and money. Are you certain the Patriachate has any other methoPatriarchatet other than asking for it? If I recall correctly, ACROD (under the EP) only sends the proceeds from the free-will offering taken or asked once a year - and it ain't much.
[/quote]
This is a whole discussion in and of itself.  How should the Phanar be funded?  How should any Patriarchate be funded for that matter?  I'm pretty sure that in the OCA, there is some bottom up type of funding.  Parish pay's its "dues" or fair share to the diocese, and the diociese a proportion based on paridiocese to the synod. ÂÂ

Considering some of the problems the Antiochians have had with the former evangelical orthodox, in hind sight we can see that the reaction of the Oecumenical Throne was probably a wise and prudent one.
So, the Patriarchate is supposed to not even give the time of day to a group of potential 2000 entrants into the Faith...riiiiiight.  What was that about "The Great Commission" and preaching the Gospel and Baptizing all nations again?  The problems were with how SOME of the clergy reacted obedience-wise to their hierarch and how the hierarchs were administering their diocese - both could've been prevented with better communication.  Btw, didn't this same issue (i.e. ignoring enquirers) happen again recently with the "British Orthodox Church" (the poster peterfarringtons group I think)? ÂÂ

Constantinople is far from the only Church that does not recognize the Autocephaly of the OCA, in fact I dont believe any Orthodox Church other tdon'tMoscow recognizes it.
Have you been living under a rock?
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2005, 01:33:54 PM »

Why should the Metropolia have asked the Ecumenical Patriarchate for autocephaly, when they had absolutely no jurisdictional claim to that body? This is the sort of neo-papal attitude that gets people upset at the EP. Most Orthodox want to rever the Ecumenical Throne and grant it its proper place as first among equals, but when the EP claims direct jurisdiction everywhere, folks become reluctant to do that. And who can blame them? The Church of Russia asserted its own autocephaly from Constantinople, which did not recognize it for quite some time. Canonical matters are not always as cut-and-dry in reality as they are on paper. The Ecumenical Patriarchate (and in particular, Patriarch Bartholomew, as expressed at the OCA's 14th All-American Council) is the major obstacle to Orthodox unity in this country and in the world. You don't know how it pains me to say this, or how look it took for me to admit it, but it is entirely true. Call me an EP-basher if you must. To be honest, I'm surprised Bartholomew didn't throw a fit when the Patriarchate of Antioch granted self-ruled status to its North American Archdiocese. He jumped down +Demetrios' throat for allowing Metropolitan Philip to speak about American Orthodox unity at the GOA Clergy-Laity Conference.

Last I checked, when the Great Church of Christ granted Autocephaly to the Church of Moscow (and before that they were schismatics, separated from the Body of Christ, it's pretty cut and dry) they were given Jurisdiction over Russia proper (and that is Russia proper at the time of the charter), not 'Russia and any other lands they care to claim by military, political, or ecclesiastical conquest.' Their expansion into the Americas was uncanonical, but, out of economia, allowed by the Oecumenial Throne who unfortunately lacked the Resources to fully care for her Lands during the Turkokratia. The Oecumenical Throne does support a unified Church in the Americas, based on the paradigm proposed by the Patriarch of Alexandria in the late 70's or early 80's, namely unity under the Omophorion of Constantinople.

So, the Patriarchate is supposed to not even give the time of day to a group of potential 2000 entrants into the Faith...riiiiiight.  What was that about "The Great Commission" and preaching the Gospel and Baptizing all nations again?  The problems were with how SOME of the clergy reacted obedience-wise to their hierarch and how the hierarchs were administering their diocese - both could've been prevented with better communication.  Btw, didn't this same issue (i.e. ignoring enquirers) happen again recently with the "British Orthodox Church" (the poster peterfarringtons group I think)? 

If I recall properly, the patriarchate did offer to accept them into the faith, but not to accept their 'clergy' as clergy, but rather as laity. They could then go to seminary, then, if found fit by their Bishop, be ordained. Also if I recall properly, these married men were insisting on being made Bishops at the time too, antioch's compromise was to make them protopresbyters; which, with 20/20 hindsight, was probably unwise.

Quote
Have you been living under a rock?

Quite possibly, what Churches other than Moscow mention the OCA in their dyptics?
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2005, 02:26:43 PM »

Quote
and before that they were schismatics, separated from the Body of Christ, it's pretty cut and dry

No, it really isn't. The Body of Christ is not equivalent to the Patriarchate of Ä°stanbul.

Quote
they were given Jurisdiction over Russia proper (and that is Russia proper at the time of the charter), not 'Russia and any other lands they care to claim by military, political, or ecclesiastical conquest.'

Cite?

Quote
Their expansion into the Americas was uncanonical

Cite?

Quote
The Oecumenical Throne does support a unified Church in the Americas, based on the paradigm proposed by the Patriarch of Alexandria in the late 70's or early 80's, namely unity under the Omophorion of Constantinople.

So in other words, the EP doesn't support a unified Church in the Americas.

Quote
Quite possibly, what Churches other than Moscow mention the OCA in their dyptics?

The churches of Poland, Bulgaria, Georgia, and Czechia and Slovakia.
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2005, 06:32:55 PM »

Also does Romania see the OCA as autocephalous since the Romanians in North America are under the OCA?

Also, why on earth would the EP be given jurisdiction over the Russian mission territories in Alaska?  The church of Russia was in a a time of great spiritual growth and had the ability to support its missionary activities while the EP was in such a state that it needed to focus on proctecting the faith within its territory.   
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2005, 07:13:03 PM »

In what sense does even the Patriarchate of Moscow really recognise the autocephaly of the OCA if the MP maintains it's own parishes in the Americas?
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2005, 07:18:15 PM »

I'm under the impression that those are representation parishes, much like the representation parish that the OCA maintains in Moscow.

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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2005, 07:56:40 PM »

Why should the Ecumenical Patriarch who is 5477 miles away (shorter or longer depending on your relation to Chicago) be the ruler of the churches in the US? How does he know specifically what is going on in the US when he's 5500 miles away? Wouldn't a leader who is no more than 2000 miles away from any point be a much better judge of what's best for the Nation? Further, The Ecumenical Patriarch has, on a number of occasions, said that he doesn't want to get involved in "lower affairs" of the church. Shouldn't he be there to minister to his ENTIRE flock? Or is he only to minister to the Arch-Bishops?

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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2005, 08:06:37 PM »

I've even heard OCA priest say that their "autocephaly" is a joke.  If you look at past autocephalies (Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, etc.) Orthodoxy was the religion of almost the entire people.  Whereas in the modern version of it countries with almost no Orthodox population have been granted autocephalous status (Czech lands, Poland, America).  Even the OCA hasn't solved the canonical problem in America - for example one OCA parish in my city is under Bishop Tikhon of SF and the other is under Bishop Nathenial of the Romanian Episcopate.  So the OCA is overlapping itself here!

Now I don't really have any objection to the idea of all of America being under the EP.  It could easily be argued from a logical standpoint that as the primus inter pares his role could be used to help solve the multi-jurisdictional problem and that already the majority of Orthodox Christians in American are already under the EP. ÂÂ

But, I don't think this issue is nearly as pressing as some make it out to be.  To me the bigger issues are fostering true Orthodox piety that is very lacking in American Orthodoxy, missionary work and monasticism.  Once some American saints are created, THEN will there be an American Church. ÂÂ
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2005, 08:09:17 PM »

Why should the Ecumenical Patriarch who is 5477 miles away (shorter or longer depending on your relation to Chicago) be the ruler of the churches in the US? How does he know specifically what is going on in the US when he's 5500 miles away? Wouldn't a leader who is no more than 2000 miles away from any point be a much better judge of what's best for the Nation? Further, The Ecumenical Patriarch has, on a number of occasions, said that he doesn't want to get involved in "lower affairs" of the church. Shouldn't he be there to minister to his ENTIRE flock? Or is he only to minister to the Arch-Bishops?

Why should the The Most Blessed Herman, Primate of the OCA "rule" three Parishes in Australia when he is even further away? "The Orthodox Church in America in Australia" Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2005, 08:48:10 PM »

As you know, I won't be sticking around here long though...but everything involving school is sort of turning into a giant mess, so it is up in the air if I will even be going now. 

I'm very sorry to read this. I know you were looking forward to that experience.

Demetri
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2005, 08:58:55 PM »


I think THIS is one of the most important questions.  It seems that there are many who think their Primate is above criticism (not just referring to GiC).

One gets better notice for one's complaints when one is speaking of his own bishop, not someone else's.

Quote
Please elaborate on this, I was probably not even born when the OCA got their Autocephaly.

Sure thing. In 1971 when Moscow granted autocephaly to what became the OCA, it retained a number of patriarchal parishes directly under Moscow. Today there are 56 parishes in North America under Moscow. So, this autocephalcy in effect created yet another jurisdiction here. Just what we needed.

Quote

This is a whole discussion in and of itself.  How should the Phanar be funded?  How should any Patriarchate be funded for that matter?  I'm pretty sure that in the OCA, there is some bottom up type of funding.  Parish pay's its "dues" or fair share to the diocese, and the diociese a proportion based on paridiocese to the synod.

Nice plan.  Not all jurisdictions operate the same. Certainly it's not up to me to posit a plan for another's church.
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2005, 09:02:37 PM »

Also does Romania see the OCA as autocephalous since the Romanians in North America are under the OCA?


Slight correction. There are two Romanian jurisdictions here - one a diocese in the OCA and another, an archdiocese directly under Romania. (AND at least one Romanian parish in the GOAA where it has always been.)
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2005, 09:06:17 PM »

Things are very uncertain (we are dealing with Greece afterall!) but it is a matter of some paperwork processing (quickly - and actually some stuff from America is what is holding this up).  It is not a lost cause yet, and I was told that if this year doesn't work out, next will for sure.  And if worst is worst, I hang out on Athos for awhile until I start school next year. ÂÂ
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2005, 09:12:00 PM »

Silouan,
I'm envious of your 'worst' option!
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« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2005, 01:00:30 AM »

Just to rub it in a little.... I'm going to the closest thing we have to Athos in America tonight for the vigil for the Transfiguration.  As nice as St. Anthony's is though it isn't Agion Oros.  I'd love to back on the Holy Mountain for first 15 days of August. 
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« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2005, 01:24:36 AM »

Why should the The Most Blessed Herman, Primate of the OCA "rule" three Parishes in Australia when he is even further away? "The Orthodox Church in America in Australia" Cheesy

He shouldn't - it makes no sense.  I just checked the OCA site to conifrm.  When and how did these (I could two) parishes get there?  Makes no sense.
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« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2005, 01:31:14 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6809.msg89662#msg89662 date=1123289935]
One gets better notice for one's complaints when one is speaking of his own bishop, not someone else's.
[/quote]
Has anyone here actually complained about there hown Primate?  As for mine, I'm surprised this Oz thing is the first (scandalous if you will) thing +Met. Herman - not that he is a particularly controversial or scandalous hierarch though.  I'm not afraid of people criticizing him - he's only human afterall.   

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6809.msg89662#msg89662 date=1123289935]
Sure thing. In 1971 when Moscow granted autocephaly to what became the OCA, it retained a number of patriarchal parishes directly under Moscow. Today there are 56 parishes in North America under Moscow. So, this autocephalcy in effect created yet another jurisdiction here. Just what we needed.
[/quote]
I knew there were several MP parishes, but not 56!  Yep, definitely too many.  You don't need to "represent" that many.
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« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2005, 01:52:44 AM »

He shouldn't - it makes no sense.ÂÂ  I just checked the OCA site to conifrm.ÂÂ  When and how did these (I could two) parishes get there?ÂÂ  Makes no sense.

There are three: St Michael's in Homebush (Sydney), St. Nicholas in Bankstown (Sydney), and Holy Annunciation in Woollongaba (Brisbane)

If I was really cynical (Heaven forefend! Wink ), I'd say the St. Michael's Parish, Homebush was set up solely to cash in on the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but perhaps I'd be reading too much into their website: http://www.ausorthodox.com/olimpics/orthodox_church_of_st_michael_an.htm But I'll really be annoyed if there is an OCA mission in Beijing set up in time for the 2008 Olympics!
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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2005, 02:45:10 AM »

On a more serious note, I just found this on the "Orthodox Church in America in Australia's" website:

Quote
Australian Orthodox Fraternity of St. Michael

As a result of a court case between a group of parishioners and the Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, ( "non canonical church "). Four of the Clergy, and one parish as well as groups of parishioners broke away from the above church. They applied to the Orthodox Church in America, also known as the Metropolia, to be taken under its protection. This was granted immediately.

The first parish formed in 1971, was the St. Nicholas Church in Bankstown NSW under its rector Archimandrite Veniamin (Garshin), who was also appointed the Administrator of the OCA in Australia. The second parish was organised in Brisbane, Holy Annunciation Church under the rectorship of Fr. Gregory Malisheff

The other two priests who left the Church Abroad, were Fr. Dimitri Obuhof who joined the OCA and Fr. Theodore Michaluk who joined the Polish Orthodox Church under the Ecumenical Patriarch. Fr. Theodore was assisting Archimandrite Veniamin whilst Fr. Dimitri ministered in Brisbane and Sydney as required. A fifth priest was ordained, by Archbishop John (Shahovskoi) of San Francisco and the West, he was Fr. Michael Mersher and was sent for his ordination by a group from Sydney, later to be known as the Australian, Orthodox Fraternity of St. Michael. The ruling Archbishop for Australia was Archbishop Sylvester of Canada (now retired).

The Australian Orthodox Fraternity was formed in 1977, its aim being the purchase and organisation of a parish. The rector to be was Rev. Michael Mersher. In November 1977 Mr. C. Verjbitsky contacted the Uniting Church and was offered a surplus Presbyterian Church in Homebush, arrangements began forth with, the bank requite 20 guarantors before issuing the loan. The guarantors were found and the church was purchased for $48,000. dollars.

Services commenced after renovation and the building of the iconostasis on the 26 Jan, 1978. Icons were donated, by the parishioners as well as all other necessities, the ladies auxiliary not only raised monies but sewed all the vestments etc.

Archbishop Sylvester arrived soon after to consecrate the Church. It was named after Archangel Michael.

The loan was soon paid off and monies were raised for the purchase of a house for the priest, this was finally achieved without the necessity of another loan. Monies are now being raised for the extension to the Church Hall.

Rectors of the Church. Rev. Michael Merscher. 1978 to 1980 Rev. Theodore Michaluk 1980 to 1986 ( he was confirmed by the OCA as an acting rector.) Rev. Leopold 1986 months only. Rev Igor Chlabicz 1987 to present day.

First Trustees Mrs Anna Boukaseff (and Vice President) Mr. V. Maxwell and Mrs. G Verjbitsky

Source
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« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2005, 03:37:48 AM »

If I was really cynical (Heaven forefend! Wink ), I'd say the St. Michael's Parish, Homebush was set up solely to cash in on the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but perhaps I'd be reading too much into their website: http://www.ausorthodox.com/olimpics/orthodox_church_of_st_michael_an.htm But I'll really be annoyed if there is an OCA mission in Beijing set up in time for the 2008 Olympics!

Don't blame you.  This looks weird at best.  I don't like it either.
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« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2005, 06:48:10 AM »

Isn't Athos palaioemerologites? I thought they were a heresy...
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« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2005, 07:40:51 AM »

Isn't Athos palaioemerologites? I thought they were a heresy...

Strange how you seem to have managed to reject a church about which you know so little. Are you sure you espoused Roman Catholicism for the right reasons?

James
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« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2005, 07:58:45 AM »

Isn't Athos palaioemerologites? I thought they were a heresy...

Huh?
You made a decision concerning the salvation of your eternal soul with this level of knowledge?
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« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2005, 12:09:15 PM »

Actually I only got to attend one Catholic mass... I loved it so much that I kept going there for months.
Then an Orthodox priest told me I should choose...Orthodoxy or Catholicism...

And guess what was my choice...
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« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2005, 01:36:35 PM »

Actually I only got to attend one Catholic mass... I loved it so much that I kept going there for months.
Then an Orthodox priest told me I should choose...Orthodoxy or Catholicism...

And guess what was my choice...

Yeah, it must be difficult to bear through those long Orthdox services. Roll Eyes

One of our parishoners left recently with his teenager daughter.  They're going to a ELCA (Lutheran) church because his whiny daughter thinks our services are too long.  Nevermind any of that "doctrine", "faith" or "truth" stuff.
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2005, 08:46:38 AM »

Dear brethren,

I know I don't post very often but I hope you listen to me anyway. The Devil likes to attack the leaders of the Church so that it may affect more Christians this way. Was there ever a Church leader who was not affected by Satan? In unity and in peace however, he has no power. This is why we pray to the Lord "again and again in peace". Unity does not mean centralisation, it means getting along with our brothers and sister of the Orthodox Church. Forming a united Orthodox Church may sound nice and strong, but it seems that Orthodoxy is strongest in its diversity, not in its conformity.

The Orthodox America is not made of one single group, it is made up of Serbians Russians Greeks Armenians Syrians Copts Oriental and Eastern Orthodox. One day we may be united, but God willing this unity will not be a melting pot but a platform for all cultures all races and all expressions of the Orthodox faith.

Ecumenism is the antithesis of this, it tries to bring everyone under one umbrella but wants only a few to hold it. In Orthodoxy we all hold on to our umbrella no matter where we come from or what language we speak and the handle of this umbrella is our faith which is one according to the 7 councils and according to the blood of our martyrs, those who died by forces inside (eg St Maxuimus the Confessor) and outside of the Church (eg the Roman Persecutions).

Catholicism, like Ecumenism has betrayed Orthodoxy and has an umbrella which only the one holds on to it, the Pope. It has become so centralised that the Bishop they call the Pope has monopolised the Holy Spirit in such a way that the faithful are asphixiated spiritually and are forced to bow down to his image.

Let us not follow any other example and let us never have any other rock, any other head appart from Jesus Christ and those who deserve our respect as leaders of the flock, never as rulers.

Again and Again

In Peace

Kosmas
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2005, 11:06:33 AM »

Dear brethren,

I know I don't post very often but I hope you listen to me anyway. The Devil likes to attack the leaders of the Church so that it may affect more Christians this way. Was there ever a Church leader who was not affected by Satan? In unity and in peace however, he has no power. This is why we pray to the Lord "again and again in peace". Unity does not mean centralisation, it means getting along with our brothers and sister of the Orthodox Church. Forming a united Orthodox Church may sound nice and strong, but it seems that Orthodoxy is strongest in its diversity, not in its conformity.

The Orthodox America is not made of one single group, it is made up of Serbians Russians Greeks Armenians Syrians Copts Oriental and Eastern Orthodox. One day we may be united, but God willing this unity will not be a melting pot but a platform for all cultures all races and all expressions of the Orthodox faith.

Ecumenism is the antithesis of this, it tries to bring everyone under one umbrella but wants only a few to hold it. In Orthodoxy we all hold on to our umbrella no matter where we come from or what language we speak and the handle of this umbrella is our faith which is one according to the 7 councils and according to the blood of our martyrs, those who died by forces inside (eg St Maxuimus the Confessor) and outside of the Church (eg the Roman Persecutions).

Catholicism, like Ecumenism has betrayed Orthodoxy and has an umbrella which only the one holds on to it, the Pope. It has become so centralised that the Bishop they call the Pope has monopolised the Holy Spirit in such a way that the faithful are asphixiated spiritually and are forced to bow down to his image.

Let us not follow any other example and let us never have any other rock, any other head appart from Jesus Christ and those who deserve our respect as leaders of the flock, never as rulers.

Again and Again

In Peace

Kosmas


From what I got out of this post, and I may very well be wrong, you would rather see the church divided by Nationalistic Bounds than united by faith? Nationalism is never good especially in the church. Further, it would seem that your view is that the hierarchs are always right. this is totally not the case. Remember, there is no one living who does not sin. By this statement, hierarchs can be wrong just like the rest of us. To say that centralization is a bad thing and then believe that nationalism sustains the church is contradictory at its very core. You refer to the Church of Rome and being too centralized. That is exactly what we're trying to avoid. We don't want the Ecumenical Patriarch ruling over all Orthodox Churches like the Pope does to all Roman Churchs. We want to unite the American Church under an American Patriarch who will then be equal to the other patriarchs. So unity among a nation does not in this case lead to unity of a church, it simply defines the church as tied together by belief which is what we all have in common. Or nationalistic background if anything separate us. By uniting the American Orthodox Jurisdictions, we can end nationalism in the Orthodox Church once and for all!

-Nick
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2005, 11:24:02 AM »

Has anyone here actually complained about there hown Primate?

I'll complain! Take Frank Griswold-- PLEASE.
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2005, 11:37:41 AM »

I'll complain! Take Frank Griswold-- PLEASE.


Nah, why don't you just give him to the Unitarians - I'm sure they won't mind.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Grin

(not that I have any idea what Frank Griswold is all about).
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2005, 12:40:48 PM »

Here is Kendal Harmon's (chief ECUSA blogger) analysis of the Exec Council response that they would too show up at the next ACC meeting (the ACC is something like the SCOBA of the Anglican communion, except it also has lay members)

and here is Griswold's. His English is painful to the ear, IMHO.
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« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2005, 01:32:35 AM »

The Ecumenical  patriarch Bartholomew I .Is a world renown figure .He is held in high esteem all over the world.He is considered a holy man of great honesty and reasonableness. He has a respected voce in world affairs.
Others who crave his position have no chance.
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« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2005, 02:00:15 PM »


From what I got out of this post, and I may very well be wrong, you would rather see the church divided by Nationalistic Bounds than united by faith? Nationalism is never good especially in the church. Further, it would seem that your view is that the hierarchs are always right. this is totally not the case. Remember, there is no one living who does not sin. By this statement, hierarchs can be wrong just like the rest of us. To say that centralization is a bad thing and then believe that nationalism sustains the church is contradictory at its very core. You refer to the Church of Rome and being too centralized. That is exactly what we're trying to avoid. We don't want the Ecumenical Patriarch ruling over all Orthodox Churches like the Pope does to all Roman Churchs. We want to unite the American Church under an American Patriarch who will then be equal to the other patriarchs. So unity among a nation does not in this case lead to unity of a church, it simply defines the church as tied together by belief which is what we all have in common. Or nationalistic background if anything separate us. By uniting the American Orthodox Jurisdictions, we can end nationalism in the Orthodox Church once and for all!

-Nick

You obviously misunderstood my point. Killing someones identity is not what Christ wanted. Rejecting someone's language and culture and expecting him or her to conform to your own language and customs is wrong, I think it is called national philetism. All I was saying is that having one single head in charge of America, North and South and expecting everyone to conform to what one Patriarch thinks the American Church should be run can be quite dangerous.  Due to the multicultural society of America, it would be very awkward to have a single head. If some day the Coptic or Oriental Churches joined us would they be forced to conform to the Eastern Orthodox Church or vice versa? would a Church using Byzantine Liturgy have to conform to the Russian Liturgy or vice versa?

A fisherman would not use the same type of bait for every type of fish. Each fish is attracted to different bait. Unity in diversity is using different bait for different fish. As St Paul writes

Quote
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.  To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. (1 Cor 9:20-23)
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« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2005, 04:50:49 PM »

One Church.  One Faith.  When will the revisionists, Nouveau Living Church-minded Orthodoxy realize that we already have liturgical unity, whiich is the only Unity.  One big Orthodoxy Corps would turn us into an eastern Vatican.  I rejoice that we can worship in any language (why should will only worship in American/English?) Grin
I don't believe for one minute you can have Unity based on secular models.  Let us unite ourselves in Christ then we will be truly united in His Holy Body.
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