Author Topic: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?  (Read 3055 times)

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Offline wgw

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Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« on: February 07, 2016, 01:15:52 AM »
I have to confess I can't really support that, because those people in that jungle wish to enter the UK illegally.  I believe violating the law, or intending to violate the law, is a sin, amd our priests should not go out of their way to minister to would-be lawbreakers.  These migrants should repent and seek out to live in a Schengen country, and should be communicated on the basis of that repentence.

This is a purely religious perspective; I am not wishing to comment on UK border policy in any sense; one could make any number of legitimate arguments as to what Britain should do, but that's a political question.  Rather, my view is that people who are actively intending to violate the law should not receive the Eucharist, on the basis of "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." 

This is even where said criminality is justifiable on moral grounds.  The sole exception would be violating laws that directly violate the Christian faith or that compel a positive action contrary to Christian virtue.  For example, in Saudi Arabia, the laws precluding the practice of Christianity, or the mandatory service of idols in the Diocletian persecution.  UK border policy might well be objectionable on grounds we can debate politically, but it remains well within the pale of "that which is Caesar's."
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2016, 01:38:21 AM »
You would deny people the Mysteries because of a border issue?

That seems contrary to the whole point.


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Offline wgw

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2016, 01:55:54 AM »
You would deny people the Mysteries because of a border issue?

Well, this is where it gets tricky.  If they opposed the law and were camping out because rhey expected it would soon be changed, and then intended to enter legally, certainly not.  However, if they had an intent to violate the immigration laws of the UK and were encamped for that purpose, I don't think they should approach the chalice, voluntarily at any rate.   However if one became ill then that would change it again.

It's complicted, but I believe we are obliged to try to obey the law even where we disagree with it.   
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2016, 02:28:53 AM »

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2016, 02:37:35 AM »
So you would also suggest that churches in America ask each communicant for the proof they are legal and have not just overstayed a visa and become illegal immigrants?

Given the fact that we will ALL sin again and this break the law, is there really a division of 'future sin' that is worse than others, or maybe we should just stop with the Mysteries all together since we will all go break laws before our next partaking.

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 03:18:23 AM »
So you would also suggest that churches in America ask each communicant for the proof they are legal and have not just overstayed a visa and become illegal immigrants?

Given the fact that we will ALL sin again and this break the law, is there really a division of 'future sin' that is worse than others, or maybe we should just stop with the Mysteries all together since we will all go break laws before our next partaking.

I tend to agree with you, but I'm just not sure that this is a good analogy since parish priests have trouble enough knowing who among visitors is baptized Orthodox. A priest going into a camp of illegal immigrants to commune them would be a better example.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2016, 03:35:09 AM »
Laws or policies standing in the way of helping innocent people who are suffering and dying, because it might cost the citizens of the country a bit more in police, food and shelter costs, are unChristian and sinful, and should be rebelled against completely. We aren't given too awful many specifics about what kinds of things will be said on judgment day, but one of the instances of it that we do have is:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

There's also something in one of these books about 'true religion' along the same lines. So yeah, helping in situations like this may cost quite a bit, and maybe places like Greece (with their economic position) would be much tougher places when it comes to such choices, but what are most western nations going to say on judgment day? "Gee God, we wanted to help, but it would have been SOOO expensive! Did you know all that money we saved allowed us to pay most of the bill for an additional fighter jet?" 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 03:36:09 AM by Asteriktos »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2016, 03:52:59 AM »
Archbishop Iakovos participated in the civil rights movement, including the march on Selma. I think it's pretty obvious he believed the Jim Crow laws were fundamentally unjust. I'm not sure if he ever opined on specific cases (like Rosa Parks, etc.) but I don't think he would have used the Caesar verse to argue against resisting Jim Crow. Immigration laws aren't necessarily the equivalent of Jim Crow, but in some cases they can be, if they cause too much unjust suffering.

The quote about giving to Caesar occurs in the middle of a discussion about paying taxes, rather than immigration laws. Back then the ideas of nation-state and citizenship were not crystal clear, and many people living under Roman rule were not citizens, but they were not deported or treated as aliens, merely as subjects. When borders and walls were built (like Hadrian's Wall, for instance) it was to protect against armed, organized invaders. Nation-states as we know them today are a relatively recent development. That's not to say the quote is totally irrelevant to immigration policy, but it's not the primary, original meaning.

I do wonder how tax protesters and "sovereign citizen" types who identify Christian defend their views in light of that verse, though.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 03:56:03 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2016, 04:06:07 AM »
Let the faithful receive.  What better medicine when one is suffering the hardships of this world than to worship God?


Sure, render unto to Caesar what is Caesar's.  The law will handle legal issues; don't let that come in between a Christian and God.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2016, 04:18:53 AM »
So you would also suggest that churches in America ask each communicant for the proof they are legal and have not just overstayed a visa and become illegal immigrants?

Given the fact that we will ALL sin again and this break the law, is there really a division of 'future sin' that is worse than others, or maybe we should just stop with the Mysteries all together since we will all go break laws before our next partaking.

Its really a question of intent.  People who have a positive intent to break a law knowingly, who are planning on breaking such a law, should voluntarily refrain from the Eucharist or should repent of it.

If someone inadvertantly overstays their visa, but did not plan to do it, they should work to regularize their situation, and if working towards that end legitimately, someone could receive the Eucharist.

We know that we will sin in the future; however, if we are actively plotting to sin in a specific way by engaging in illegal behavior, this is the same morally speaking as plotting to have an affair pr sin in other respects, and we should seek to repent of this.  The eucharist and evil designs are incompatible. 
This applies to other scenarios as well.  For example, someone plotting a political intrigue in government or a boardroom coup in business is perhaps in such a case.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2016, 04:23:57 AM »
Laws or policies standing in the way of helping innocent people who are suffering and dying, because it might cost the citizens of the country a bit more in police, food and shelter costs, are unChristian and sinful, and should be rebelled against completely. We aren't given too awful many specifics about what kinds of things will be said on judgment day, but one of the instances of it that we do have is:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

There's also something in one of these books about 'true religion' along the same lines. So yeah, helping in situations like this may cost quite a bit, and maybe places like Greece (with their economic position) would be much tougher places when it comes to such choices, but what are most western nations going to say on judgment day? "Gee God, we wanted to help, but it would have been SOOO expensive! Did you know all that money we saved allowed us to pay most of the bill for an additional fighter jet?"

This is a legitimate political argument, and you might well be right to raise it.  I am not saluting the UK's immigration laws; my own purely political view is that Christians should be allowed to freely enter Christian countries subject only to security-related screening.  That said, I believe that, even if the law is wrong, we are morally obliged to not take active measures to break it, unless the law is directly contradicted by a divine commandment.  For example, we could legitimately refuse to sacrifice to idols; we could disobey a law prohibiting the Eucharist.

In this case however. that does not apply.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2016, 04:28:48 AM »
Laws or policies standing in the way of helping innocent people who are suffering and dying, because it might cost the citizens of the country a bit more in police, food and shelter costs, are unChristian and sinful, and should be rebelled against completely. We aren't given too awful many specifics about what kinds of things will be said on judgment day, but one of the instances of it that we do have is:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

There's also something in one of these books about 'true religion' along the same lines. So yeah, helping in situations like this may cost quite a bit, and maybe places like Greece (with their economic position) would be much tougher places when it comes to such choices, but what are most western nations going to say on judgment day? "Gee God, we wanted to help, but it would have been SOOO expensive! Did you know all that money we saved allowed us to pay most of the bill for an additional fighter jet?"

This is a legitimate political argument, and you might well be right to raise it.  I am not saluting the UK's immigration laws; my own purely political view is that Christians should be allowed to freely enter Christian countries subject only to security-related screening.  That said, I believe that, even if the law is wrong, we are morally obliged to not take active measures to break it, unless the law is directly contradicted by a divine commandment.  For example, we could legitimately refuse to sacrifice to idols; we could disobey a law prohibiting the Eucharist.

In this case however. that does not apply.

We are commanded to show hospitality to the stranger and kindness to the poor. How does the UK law not contradict that?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2016, 04:30:46 AM »
I do wonder how tax protesters and "sovereign citizen" types who identify Christian defend their views in light of that verse, though.

By saying that the taxes are themselves illegal and that the highest legitimate governmental authority is the county sheriff, respectively.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2016, 04:52:11 AM »
Laws or policies standing in the way of helping innocent people who are suffering and dying, because it might cost the citizens of the country a bit more in police, food and shelter costs, are unChristian and sinful, and should be rebelled against completely. We aren't given too awful many specifics about what kinds of things will be said on judgment day, but one of the instances of it that we do have is:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

There's also something in one of these books about 'true religion' along the same lines. So yeah, helping in situations like this may cost quite a bit, and maybe places like Greece (with their economic position) would be much tougher places when it comes to such choices, but what are most western nations going to say on judgment day? "Gee God, we wanted to help, but it would have been SOOO expensive! Did you know all that money we saved allowed us to pay most of the bill for an additional fighter jet?"

This is a legitimate political argument, and you might well be right to raise it.  I am not saluting the UK's immigration laws; my own purely political view is that Christians should be allowed to freely enter Christian countries subject only to security-related screening.  That said, I believe that, even if the law is wrong, we are morally obliged to not take active measures to break it, unless the law is directly contradicted by a divine commandment.  For example, we could legitimately refuse to sacrifice to idols; we could disobey a law prohibiting the Eucharist.

In this case however. that does not apply.

We are commanded to show hospitality to the stranger and kindness to the poor. How does the UK law not contradict that?

The law does not preclude UK citizens from engaging in various works of charity and hospitality; if it did, however, the prerogative for breaking it would lie with the British people.   One can however pose a number of legitimate moral arguments against it, but at present I do not see the law as directly suppressing the proper exercise of the Orthodox faith in the UK.

I should note that just as we are obliged to obey laws generally, we are also obliged to lawfully object to laws which are contrary to Christian moral principles.  On that basis, one could object to this law if one felt it should be objected to.  However, violating it would not I think be justifiable in this case since adhering to the law while noting ones objection to it does not constitute apostasy per se.   Whereas a law requiring sacrifice to idols would require apostasy, for instance.

In other words, we should obey even odious laws as long as e ability to practice the Christian faith remains; however, we can object and should object to laws which do not require apostasy but which are nonetheless unChristian, without breaking them.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2016, 06:26:20 AM »
Laws or policies standing in the way of helping innocent people who are suffering and dying, because it might cost the citizens of the country a bit more in police, food and shelter costs, are unChristian and sinful, and should be rebelled against completely. We aren't given too awful many specifics about what kinds of things will be said on judgment day, but one of the instances of it that we do have is:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

There's also something in one of these books about 'true religion' along the same lines. So yeah, helping in situations like this may cost quite a bit, and maybe places like Greece (with their economic position) would be much tougher places when it comes to such choices, but what are most western nations going to say on judgment day? "Gee God, we wanted to help, but it would have been SOOO expensive! Did you know all that money we saved allowed us to pay most of the bill for an additional fighter jet?"

This is a legitimate political argument, and you might well be right to raise it.  I am not saluting the UK's immigration laws; my own purely political view is that Christians should be allowed to freely enter Christian countries subject only to security-related screening.  That said, I believe that, even if the law is wrong, we are morally obliged to not take active measures to break it, unless the law is directly contradicted by a divine commandment.  For example, we could legitimately refuse to sacrifice to idols; we could disobey a law prohibiting the Eucharist.

In this case however. that does not apply.

We are commanded to show hospitality to the stranger and kindness to the poor. How does the UK law not contradict that?

The law does not preclude UK citizens from engaging in various works of charity and hospitality; if it did, however, the prerogative for breaking it would lie with the British people.   One can however pose a number of legitimate moral arguments against it, but at present I do not see the law as directly suppressing the proper exercise of the Orthodox faith in the UK.

I should note that just as we are obliged to obey laws generally, we are also obliged to lawfully object to laws which are contrary to Christian moral principles.  On that basis, one could object to this law if one felt it should be objected to.  However, violating it would not I think be justifiable in this case since adhering to the law while noting ones objection to it does not constitute apostasy per se.   Whereas a law requiring sacrifice to idols would require apostasy, for instance.

In other words, we should obey even odious laws as long as e ability to practice the Christian faith remains; however, we can object and should object to laws which do not require apostasy but which are nonetheless unChristian, without breaking them.

Where are you getting this argument? I didn't know that Jesuit casuistry was an OO tradition. You're asking the British people to violate James 2:15-17:
Quote
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

And weren't you one of the people grousing that the Planned Parenthood video guy is getting indicted? He broke the law, you know.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 06:26:55 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2016, 08:41:38 AM »
Laws or policies standing in the way of helping innocent people who are suffering and dying, because it might cost the citizens of the country a bit more in police, food and shelter costs, are unChristian and sinful, and should be rebelled against completely. We aren't given too awful many specifics about what kinds of things will be said on judgment day, but one of the instances of it that we do have is:

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

There's also something in one of these books about 'true religion' along the same lines. So yeah, helping in situations like this may cost quite a bit, and maybe places like Greece (with their economic position) would be much tougher places when it comes to such choices, but what are most western nations going to say on judgment day? "Gee God, we wanted to help, but it would have been SOOO expensive! Did you know all that money we saved allowed us to pay most of the bill for an additional fighter jet?"

This is a legitimate political argument, and you might well be right to raise it.  I am not saluting the UK's immigration laws; my own purely political view is that Christians should be allowed to freely enter Christian countries subject only to security-related screening.  That said, I believe that, even if the law is wrong, we are morally obliged to not take active measures to break it, unless the law is directly contradicted by a divine commandment.  For example, we could legitimately refuse to sacrifice to idols; we could disobey a law prohibiting the Eucharist.

In this case however. that does not apply.

We are commanded to show hospitality to the stranger and kindness to the poor. How does the UK law not contradict that?

The law does not preclude UK citizens from engaging in various works of charity and hospitality; if it did, however, the prerogative for breaking it would lie with the British people.   One can however pose a number of legitimate moral arguments against it, but at present I do not see the law as directly suppressing the proper exercise of the Orthodox faith in the UK.

I should note that just as we are obliged to obey laws generally, we are also obliged to lawfully object to laws which are contrary to Christian moral principles.  On that basis, one could object to this law if one felt it should be objected to.  However, violating it would not I think be justifiable in this case since adhering to the law while noting ones objection to it does not constitute apostasy per se.   Whereas a law requiring sacrifice to idols would require apostasy, for instance.

In other words, we should obey even odious laws as long as e ability to practice the Christian faith remains; however, we can object and should object to laws which do not require apostasy but which are nonetheless unChristian, without breaking them.

Where are you getting this argument? I didn't know that Jesuit casuistry was an OO tradition. You're asking the British people to violate James 2:15-17:
Quote
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

And weren't you one of the people grousing that the Planned Parenthood video guy is getting indicted? He broke the law, you know.

Firstly, British immigration law is not incompatible with James 2:15-17; British people can easily send aid or personally provide aid to migrants in Calais and elsewhere; furthermore, the migrants in Calais could receive aid and much improved living conditions were they to opt to settle in the Schengen Area, where they already are.  Should Britain admit them?  Possibly, but that's a political argument.

Now, regarding the Planned Parenthood incident, I object to the law being enforced in that manner, however, at the same time, I do not think the man in question should approach the chalice if engaged in any effort to intentionally violate the law.  This of course takes us to a complex moral question regarding access of intelligence officers to the Eucharist which is somewhat of an edge case, and there are clearly edge cases that can apply to this scenario as well.  I think the case could be made that intelligence officers should at a minimum approach the Chalice with extreme caution, amd abstaining altogether might well be warranted.  Consider St. Basil's view of the reception of the Eucharist by soldiers (which differs from that of St. Athanasius; St. Basil was justifiably concerned about the killing involved, and thought they ought to wait three years before partaking, whereas St. Athanasius viewed their service as honourable and was open to communicating them immediately on their return from duty).  This provides, even if we take the view of St. Athanasius, a reason for pause.

As a general rule, however, the idea of a specific clerical missiom to serve people encamped for the specific purposes of lawbreaking, breaking a law which is objectionable, but a law to which they do not need to break, given they are already in Schengen (and frankly, I myself, given the choice of living in France or Germany or the UK, would not choose the UK), strikes me as greatly misguided.  I can't fault the Ethiopic clergy for doing this, but I would regard them as acting in error if they did not as part of such a mission insist that the migrants repent of their efforts to enter the UK illegally, and instead, sought to help them to build lives on the Continent.

I would also note, on that point, that if these unfortunate migrants had already settled on the Continent, unless they made the mistake of settling in Denmark, for example, they might very possibly be much better off than they are in the "jungle" of Calais.  They made a mistake; they were encouraged to make this mistake; there is a complex political question, but I believe that theh should urgently engage in metanoia and settle on the Continent while they still can; there is a wave of actual full-on racism brewing in Germany and elsewhere due to incidents involving Islamic migrants in Cologne and so on, and one tragic side effect of this is that Christian migrants who do not seek to immediately regularize their situation might well face potential deportation or mistreatment, and that actually would be a human tragedy on the scale of some of the tragic incidents of lives being lost in the Mediterranean.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2016, 08:57:09 AM »
Worthwhile discussion is taking place here, but wouldn't it be better to rephrase the original question to 'Should I commune if I intend to break the law?' That puts the focus where it really belongs, on each individual her/himself rather than on her/his neighbour. (It's my impression that while in general priests are interested in each one of us an an individual, they don't much appreciate parishioners rushing up to them bearing tales about others in the congregation--to say nothing of being told they shouldn't give communion to this or that believer because...)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 08:58:15 AM by FinnJames »

Offline wgw

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2016, 09:33:41 AM »
Worthwhile discussion is taking place here, but wouldn't it be better to rephrase the original question to 'Should I commune if I intend to break the law?' That puts the focus where it really belongs, on each individual her/himself rather than on her/his neighbour. (It's my impression that while in general priests are interested in each one of us an an individual, they don't much appreciate parishioners rushing up to them bearing tales about others in the congregation--to say nothing of being told they shouldn't give communion to this or that believer because...)

This is a very valid point, and I am inclined to agree.  That said, what prompted this was my being irked by what I consider to be the misguided organization of a provisional church in the "Jungle," which seems to me to be a dubious approach both on humanitarian and pastoral grounds.  I think it would be better if the clergy in question sought to arrange a regularization for these migrants in the Schengen Area, where they could benefit from proper housing and so on.  The jungle is needlessly dangerous, and exists to facilitate dangerous law-breaking in the form of what amounts to reckless attempts to sneak into the UK on ferries or through the Chunnel.  I think the clergy need to encourage people to reoent of this; it is sinful and personally dangerous, needlessly so.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2016, 09:58:06 AM »
Worthwhile discussion is taking place here, but wouldn't it be better to rephrase the original question to 'Should I commune if I intend to break the law?' That puts the focus where it really belongs, on each individual her/himself rather than on her/his neighbour. (It's my impression that while in general priests are interested in each one of us an an individual, they don't much appreciate parishioners rushing up to them bearing tales about others in the congregation--to say nothing of being told they shouldn't give communion to this or that believer because...)

This is a very valid point, and I am inclined to agree.  That said, what prompted this was my being irked by what I consider to be the misguided organization of a provisional church in the "Jungle," which seems to me to be a dubious approach both on humanitarian and pastoral grounds.  I think it would be better if the clergy in question sought to arrange a regularization for these migrants in the Schengen Area, where they could benefit from proper housing and so on.  The jungle is needlessly dangerous, and exists to facilitate dangerous law-breaking in the form of what amounts to reckless attempts to sneak into the UK on ferries or through the Chunnel.  I think the clergy need to encourage people to reoent of this; it is sinful and personally dangerous, needlessly so.


And since as Finnjames points out ,
It being up to priests.

You are not one. Thus your personal opinion of migrants and where or how they commune is not what matters.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 10:03:25 AM »
Worthwhile discussion is taking place here, but wouldn't it be better to rephrase the original question to 'Should I commune if I intend to break the law?' That puts the focus where it really belongs, on each individual her/himself rather than on her/his neighbour. (It's my impression that while in general priests are interested in each one of us an an individual, they don't much appreciate parishioners rushing up to them bearing tales about others in the congregation--to say nothing of being told they shouldn't give communion to this or that believer because...)

This is a very valid point, and I am inclined to agree.  That said, what prompted this was my being irked by what I consider to be the misguided organization of a provisional church in the "Jungle," which seems to me to be a dubious approach both on humanitarian and pastoral grounds.  I think it would be better if the clergy in question sought to arrange a regularization for these migrants in the Schengen Area, where they could benefit from proper housing and so on.  The jungle is needlessly dangerous, and exists to facilitate dangerous law-breaking in the form of what amounts to reckless attempts to sneak into the UK on ferries or through the Chunnel.  I think the clergy need to encourage people to reoent of this; it is sinful and personally dangerous, needlessly so.

Yes, I understand your point of view and sympathize with it. One of the hardest aspects of this so-called refugee crisis is trying to remain un-judgemental while at the same time trying to understand the struggle that people on all sides are going through.

One possible compromise solution to the problem of Christian refugees/'refugees' in the Calais Jungle might be for those European countries that have said they want only Christian migrants to invite these people in and for these Christian migrants to give up their plans to enter Britain illegally. Admittedly, I don't hold much hope for this happening.

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2016, 11:23:43 AM »
Worthwhile discussion is taking place here, but wouldn't it be better to rephrase the original question to 'Should I commune if I intend to break the law?' That puts the focus where it really belongs, on each individual her/himself rather than on her/his neighbour. (It's my impression that while in general priests are interested in each one of us an an individual, they don't much appreciate parishioners rushing up to them bearing tales about others in the congregation--to say nothing of being told they shouldn't give communion to this or that believer because...)

This is a very valid point, and I am inclined to agree.  That said, what prompted this was my being irked by what I consider to be the misguided organization of a provisional church in the "Jungle," which seems to me to be a dubious approach both on humanitarian and pastoral grounds.  I think it would be better if the clergy in question sought to arrange a regularization for these migrants in the Schengen Area, where they could benefit from proper housing and so on.  The jungle is needlessly dangerous, and exists to facilitate dangerous law-breaking in the form of what amounts to reckless attempts to sneak into the UK on ferries or through the Chunnel.  I think the clergy need to encourage people to reoent of this; it is sinful and personally dangerous, needlessly so.

Yes, I understand your point of view and sympathize with it. One of the hardest aspects of this so-called refugee crisis is trying to remain un-judgemental while at the same time trying to understand the struggle that people on all sides are going through.

One possible compromise solution to the problem of Christian refugees/'refugees' in the Calais Jungle might be for those European countries that have said they want only Christian migrants to invite these people in and for these Christian migrants to give up their plans to enter Britain illegally. Admittedly, I don't hold much hope for this happening.

I am inclined to agree, although I don't want to further expand into the practicalities of how best to resolve it for reasons of avoiding a political discussion.  I will say your sentiments broadly agree with mine.

Now in response to DeniseDenise, I will day I have no personal antipathy for these people; I feel sorry for them, and I also understand how they came to make what has proven to be a bad decision in their effort to settle; I have a theologoumenon on what the priests ought to do to best help them, but it is of course up to the priests and indeed the Ethiopian bishops on how they handle this.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 11:24:02 AM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2016, 11:33:28 AM »
And your view is mixing the politics of the situation with the Mysteries.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2016, 12:02:57 PM »
Is crossing the red light (without any factors that would reduce traffic security) a sin that needs to be confessed?
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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2016, 01:10:15 PM »
Let the faithful receive.  What better medicine when one is suffering the hardships of this world than to worship God?

+1
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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2016, 02:00:56 PM »
I believe violating the law, or intending to violate the law, is a sin, amd our priests should not go out of their way to minister to would-be lawbreakers. 

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2016, 11:01:30 AM »
Is crossing the red light (without any factors that would reduce traffic security) a sin that needs to be confessed?

Possibly, if done for "the pure heck of it."  Now, I have never had a ticket or an at fault accident; once, I had a near miss however.  I had an epic toothache, and ploughed throufh a red light and was nearly hit; fortunately, I was driving my toxic orange Dodge Charger and was not hit probably owing to the excessive visibility of the vehicle.  This was before I became Orthodox by about two years, however, had I done this post-conversion Inwould have confessed it, in that I did undeniably engage in hamartia by allowing myself to be distracted from physical safety not just of myself, but of others, by severe pain.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2016, 12:13:31 PM »
I believe violating the law, or intending to violate the law, is a sin, amd our priests should not go out of their way to minister to would-be lawbreakers. 

The Bible: less kissing, more reading.
+1
God bless!

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Re: Should we commune if we intend to break the law?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2016, 02:12:03 AM »
I believe violating the law, or intending to violate the law, is a sin, amd our priests should not go out of their way to minister to would-be lawbreakers. 

The Bible: less kissing, more reading.

That's signature worthy right there.
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