Author Topic: Met. Hilarion on the Conversion of the "Catholic Ch. of the East" to Orthodoxy  (Read 12306 times)

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Offline PJ26

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Statement from Metropolitan Hilarion regarding the Conversion of the "Catholic Church of the East" to Orthodoxy

Has anyone read anything about this?

http://eadiocese.org/News/2016/feb/mhstmnt.en.htm

The article states that the Catholic Church of the East has over 60 parishes - according to their still active website:

http://www.catholicchurchoftheeast.org

some are in the US like "Our Lady of Theotokos" in Mount Carmel, PA with others in places like the Philippines, Colombia, Pakistan, Palestine, and Nigeria

They are led by former "Archbishop" now Hieromonk Elias, a former member of the Polish National Catholic Church



Offline wgw

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Interesting and exciting.  I have long felt the traditionalist PNCC would be an apt target for conversion to Orthodoxy.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Iconodule

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Very interesting. One of their parishes (in Wilmington, DE) ain't too far from me.
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Well this will last about two minutes until ROCOR figures out what they've gotten themselves into.  When will they learn to stop taking in vagantes.
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The Orthodox have successfully de-vagantized several groups over the years.  The EOC, for example.  The recent failure with the BOC was depressing, but you can't win them all, and hey, at least we got Fr. Peter, and that alone was worth the price of admission.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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The Orthodox have successfully de-vagantized several groups over the years.  The EOC, for example.  The recent failure with the BOC was depressing, but you can't win them all, and hey, at least we got Fr. Peter, and that alone was worth the price of admission.
I don't think anyone would categorize the EOC as vagantes.  As to the others I believe there have been far more failures than successes.  As to Fr Ramzi or is it Bishop Elias of ROCOR as he states in a recent news article:
http://timesleader.com/news/503281/st-roccos-church-in-pittston-reopens-as-st-irene-russian-orthodox-outside-church-of-russia

And if you think he really has 60 parishes I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.
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Well this will last about two minutes until ROCOR figures out what they've gotten themselves into.  When will they learn to stop taking in vagantes.

+1

The Orthodox have successfully de-vagantized several groups over the years.  The EOC, for example.

So this is one group. Can you name the others?
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Vagantes gonna vagant.  Not even Pope Michael of Kansas has something like this!
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Vagantes gonna vagant.  Not even Pope Michael of Kansas has something like this!
That picture was from when he was part of the PNCC delegation to Rome.  Although other vagant bishops have weaseled their way into photo ops. 
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Now it is time for the Byzantine Catholics to return home.  In a carriage of salvation.

Offline Iconodule

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So this is one group. Can you name the others?

Most or all of ROCOR's current WR parishes are from vagante groups. Of course their WR has been notoriously messy and unstable but they're still around. I would agree in the hope that ROCOR did some serious investigation and vetting before making this decision. After the recent issues I would be surprised if they didn't. But we'll see I suppose. And yeah, 60 parishes... no.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 10:49:20 AM by Iconodule »
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So this is one group. Can you name the others?

Most or all of ROCOR's current WR parishes are from vagante groups. Of course their WR has been notoriously messy and unstable but they're still around. I would agree in the hope that ROCOR did some serious investigation and vetting before making this decision. After the recent issues I would be surprised if they didn't. But we'll see I suppose. And yeah, 60 parishes... no.

ROCOR WR is not a good example how to convert smaller organisations into the Orthodox Church. It's an example how not to do it.
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« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 12:45:43 PM by FatherGiryus »
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I briefly thought this was the Catholic Church of the East, as in the Assyrian schism, so I got pretty excited. Still fortunate, though.
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Well this will last about two minutes until ROCOR figures out what they've gotten themselves into.  When will they learn to stop taking in vagantes.

+1

The Orthodox have successfully de-vagantized several groups over the years.  The EOC, for example.

So this is one group. Can you name the others?
The ones in Uganda and East Africa.
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They are led by former "Archbishop" now Hieromonk Elias, a former member of the Polish National Catholic Church

His blog says they originate from the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church:
http://archbishopramzimusallam.blogspot.com/
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They are led by former "Archbishop" now Hieromonk Elias, a former member of the Polish National Catholic Church

His blog says they originate from the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church:
http://archbishopramzimusallam.blogspot.com/
The BCAC is an African Pagan-influenced version of the worst kind of Episcopalian modernism, I hope the Catholic Church of the East gets on their way under ROCOR.
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Offline Orest

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Well this will last about two minutes until ROCOR figures out what they've gotten themselves into.  When will they learn to stop taking in vagantes.

You can see a recent picture of their alter in this article which announces their change to the ROCOR back in January:   http://timesleader.com/news/503281/st-roccos-church-in-pittston-reopens-as-st-irene-russian-orthodox-outside-church-of-russia 
 An early 2007 article: http://www.theprogressnews.com/default.asp?read=8873     
 A 2011 article:  http://republicanherald.com/news/arabic-church-grounds-consecrated-church-named-a-cathedral-1.1182586
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:04:11 AM by Orest »

Offline Irish Melkite

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Interesting and exciting.  I have long felt the traditionalist PNCC would be an apt target for conversion to Orthodoxy.

The PNCC isn't involved here. He was defrocked at around the time that he decided to form what was first called the Arabic Catholic Church.

Many years,

Neil
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Offline TheTrisagion

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What is the history of this group? I can't find out much about them.
God bless!

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So this is one group. Can you name the others?

Most or all of ROCOR's current WR parishes are from vagante groups. Of course their WR has been notoriously messy and unstable but they're still around. I would agree in the hope that ROCOR did some serious investigation and vetting before making this decision. After the recent issues I would be surprised if they didn't. But we'll see I suppose. And yeah, 60 parishes... no.

ROCOR WR is not a good example how to convert smaller organisations into the Orthodox Church. It's an example how not to do it.

I was thinking (perhaps naively) that, after Bishop Jerome was so sorely chastened recently for doing this sort of thing, and the ROCOR WR was being overhauled, that ROCOR might be more careful and selective now.
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Offline Bob2

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I was thinking (perhaps naively) that, after Bishop Jerome was so sorely chastened recently for doing this sort of thing, and the ROCOR WR was being overhauled, that ROCOR might be more careful and selective now.

agreed

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I think the best (and only) thing we can do at this point is wish them well and pray for them as we would pray for other members of the Church.
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Has anyone read anything about this?

http://eadiocese.org/News/2016/feb/mhstmnt.en.htm


This link leads to a 404 error page. Is someone able to post the current link?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Has anyone read anything about this?

http://eadiocese.org/News/2016/feb/mhstmnt.en.htm


This link leads to a 404 error page. Is someone able to post the current link?
My guess, they got a clue and moved quickly to erase this embarrassment.
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Offline PJ26

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tuesdayschild,

The official statement that was originally posted on ROCOR's Eastern Diocese website can still be found here:

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90417.htm

And here:

http://byztex.blogspot.com/2016/02/big-news-catholic-church-of-east-enters.html



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So this Musallam character was ordained a deacon (having already been tonsured a hieromonk) on July 7: http://eadiocese.org/News/2015/july/myfld.en.htm

While on June 28, he was running around Nigeria saying things like:

 "Is there any clear-cut difference between your church and the Roman Catholic Church?

The only difference is just for us to hand over our property to the Pope. Our faith is the same thing. We also practise the same sacrament, and though we don’t have the Pope, but we pray for him at mass. I once said to the Pope when I met him: ‘we are one with you in faith’. But in administration we are not, which means our money and properties are separate. If, for instance, you want to belong to the patriarch of Constantinople, you have to give your properties and wealth to him. Then you can be accepted. The same applies if you want to be under the Pope. The Catholic Church of the East does not reject the Holy Father. We love the Pope of Rome. We love the Roman Catholic bishops and we are Catholics because we uphold the teachings of the holy church."

http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/2015/06/i-am-not-here-for-the-catholics-or-to-steal-their-members-says-musallam/

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Has anyone read anything about this?

http://eadiocese.org/News/2016/feb/mhstmnt.en.htm


This link leads to a 404 error page. Is someone able to post the current link?
My guess, they got a clue and moved quickly to erase this embarrassment.

Faster than expected.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 06:38:46 AM by mike »
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Has anyone read anything about this?

http://eadiocese.org/News/2016/feb/mhstmnt.en.htm


This link leads to a 404 error page. Is someone able to post the current link?
My guess, they got a clue and moved quickly to erase this embarrassment.

Faster than expected.

Way faster, gah.
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Does ROCOR even vet these vagante clerics and groups before accepting them or do they care more about inflating their membership?

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Does ROCOR even vet these vagante clerics and groups before accepting them or do they care more about inflating their membership?

Does ROCOR require seminary degrees from priesthood candidates for Byzantine rite at the first place?
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Presumably. The seminary has to do something.
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Presumably. The seminary has to do something.

I know they have seminary. But do pasoral regulations require candidates to have graduated it (or any other seminary)?
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Offline gzt

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Does ROCOR even vet these vagante clerics and groups before accepting them or do they care more about inflating their membership?

Does ROCOR require seminary degrees from priesthood candidates for Byzantine rite at the first place?
The short answer is, "No."

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Does ROCOR even vet these vagante clerics and groups before accepting them or do they care more about inflating their membership?

Does ROCOR require seminary degrees from priesthood candidates for Byzantine rite at the first place?
The short answer is, "No."

qed
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Does ROCOR even vet these vagante clerics and groups before accepting them or do they care more about inflating their membership?

Does ROCOR require seminary degrees from priesthood candidates for Byzantine rite at the first place?
The short answer is, "No."

Don't they have some kind of credentialing program that with a study component through the Chicago school, though?
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My opinion for what its worth, that ROCOR is not alone in the Eastern Orthodox world in not properly vetting, reeducating and adequately transitioning clergy from other Christian denominations into an Orthodox pastoral position. This is a problem that ought to be on the agenda of the Assembly of Bishops along with the many other issues already in the pot.

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My opinion for what its worth, that ROCOR is not alone in the Eastern Orthodox world in not properly vetting, reeducating and adequately transitioning clergy from other Christian denominations into an Orthodox pastoral position. This is a problem that ought to be on the agenda of the Assembly of Bishops along with the many other issues already in the pot.


We had such problem with a former metropolitan who was a little too open in that matter, having accepted a pre-Milan Synod structures in Spain, Portugal, and Brasil as well as one Greek-Catholic monastery. Most of them are already in schism/suspension/laicisation/pick more than one.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:49:34 PM by mike »
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Offline Bob2

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Don't they have some kind of credentialing program that with a study component through the Chicago school, though?

Yes, they do: http://www.orthodoxtheologicalschool.org/

However, there are those that are ordained without even that.

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To be fair I would just say that the OCA has had many problems with clerics and all the ones that come to my mind did attend Orthodox seminaries. So obviously education doesn't equate to someone being honest or sane. I wish I knew of a way that we could effectively vet clerics.
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To be fair I would just say that the OCA has had many problems with clerics and all the ones that come to my mind did attend Orthodox seminaries. So obviously education doesn't equate to someone being honest or sane. I wish I knew of a way that we could effectively vet clerics.

Have to agree.

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Don't they have some kind of credentialing program that with a study component through the Chicago school, though?

Yes, they do: http://www.orthodoxtheologicalschool.org/

However, there are those that are ordained without even that.

In my opinion, this is an acceptable use of episcopal prerogative on the part of ROCOR; bishops should  have this right.  I like seminaries, but the idea they are absolutely necessary in all cases, is I think a Roman Catholic counter reformation idea; there are also records of several poorly educated Orthodox priests of remarkable holiness. 

To be fair I would just say that the OCA has had many problems with clerics and all the ones that come to my mind did attend Orthodox seminaries. So obviously education doesn't equate to someone being honest or sane. I wish I knew of a way that we could effectively vet clerics.

I don't think there's a surefire way; also, I think some potentially very good priests crack under the political pressures of running a parish.  From what I've seen, I lament that it is not possible for every parish to have a deacon or two priests, to divide the workload.   I also feel like younger priests should not be given challenging solo assignments immediately after ordination; the more successful solo priests I've seem have tended to be older guys with years of experience, in their 60s or even 70s.
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In my opinion, this is an acceptable use of episcopal prerogative on the part of ROCOR; bishops should  have this right.

They have the right and these are the results.

Quote
I like seminaries, but the idea they are absolutely necessary in all cases, is I think a Roman Catholic counter reformation idea;

One of the best ones we adopted.
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Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline IXOYE

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In my opinion, this is an acceptable use of episcopal prerogative on the part of ROCOR; bishops should  have this right.  I like seminaries, but the idea they are absolutely necessary in all cases, is I think a Roman Catholic counter reformation idea; there are also records of several poorly educated Orthodox priests of remarkable holiness. 

I agree, wgw.

Offline podkarpatska

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To be clear, suggesting proper vetting and training for potential priests is NOT intended to suggest that seminary education is the sole or 'superior' method of preparation. I am suggesting that far too many 'stray cats' come to the doors of honest and often naive chancery offices and bishops seeking the ear of this or that bishop regarding their 'vocation' and dedication to the Church and its Bishop.