Author Topic: Using Marijuana (weed)?  (Read 7728 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2016, 12:47:43 PM »
Can you imagine Jesus smoking weed? The Apostles? St. Paisios? I can't.
Why not?
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2016, 12:51:10 PM »
Can you imagine Jesus smoking weed? The Apostles? St. Paisios? I can't.
Why not?

Lack of imagination, I would assume.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2016, 12:55:19 PM »
Can you imagine Jesus smoking weed? The Apostles? St. Paisios? I can't.
Why not?

I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so. 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2016, 01:47:34 PM »
Can you imagine Jesus smoking weed? The Apostles? St. Paisios? I can't.
Why not?

I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so.
Why not?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2016, 01:49:09 PM »
I often wonder if Peter is being intentionally or unintentionally obtuse in his questioning. This is one of those times.
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2016, 01:56:41 PM »
Svartzorn are you Fabio Leite's angry little brother?

I donno that fellow. I'm just kindda angry. It's part of my personality. I'm not saying it's good.


It's not that I don't "like" your opposition to marijuana, I just think your way of expressing it undermines it.

Now we're talking.
It's probably the reason I avoid political discussions, and haven't been studying politics overall. I don't believe in dialogue, I just believe in crushing the head whoever thinks differently. That's pretty much a summary of politics to me.
I always remember an episode of this journalist who used to criticise Mussolini. He then ordered the blackshirts to deal with the guy. He was beaten to death with sticks.
Sooooo... It's unchristian and involves killing people, that's why I try to distance myself from it. Since I can't see political dissent differently, I try to distance myself overall.
So, yeah, forgive me.


Well, I don't fit any of those descriptions. Granted, I haven't smoked in many years now. And the people I knew who smoked it as well were a mixed bunch, dumb and brilliant. You're taking shortcuts to judge people just because you don't like others vegging out on a substance, which more Americans do with a beer or glass of wine in the evening. The people who I know who smoked weed are the types of people who delivered countless babies, know four or more languages, professionally edit film for news crews and make their own movies via their own personal funding, get degrees in financing which is just as hard as getting an accounting degree in business, etc. Do you do or know how to do any of these things? If not, then I would be just as reasonable to wager that we are far smarter than you can ever hope to be. And by just as reasonable I mean not reasonable at all.

I'm not taking shortcuts, it's just what I saw all the time. A bunch of hippie freaks talking nonsense. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying marijuana's confirmed to impair your thinking capability, everyone knows that.
But I guess it is doing great for you guys huh?! Why stop it? I mean, screw that vice nonsense I said, it will actually help you out learning the Fathers and Church teachings. Heck, you might even be some Nobel Prize winners the way you're saying it.
But if it was all good you wouldn't have opened this thread, right? So you know it's bad for you. And for everybody.
The only way to oppose the attempts at trying to establish recreational use as something normal is with rampant opposition. There's no "middle terms", there's no "buts". This is just who I am, call me an a-hole, I recognize it.



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« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 01:58:45 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2016, 02:08:15 PM »
Well I will say this...you sure have mastered the OCnet


'please forgive me for saying this...'


and then you go on to repeat the same stuff over again...

maybe my catechism was wrong in teaching that you have to try not to keep doing the same bad things over.....and over....

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline RobS

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2016, 02:11:05 PM »
Marijuana is a peculiar subject for Peter, one I agree with his opinions on but I think his insistent "Why?" To suggest a possibility that Jesus and his disciples would smoke a doobie is wrong. Moreover these "what if" questions are meaningless.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2016, 02:38:12 PM »
Marijuana is a peculiar subject for Peter, one I agree with his opinions on but I think his insistent "Why?" To suggest a possibility that Jesus and his disciples would smoke a doobie is wrong. Moreover these "what if" questions are meaningless.

I think the insistent "why" is because people keep making statements like "I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so." Okay, but why? Jesus turned water into wine, what's to keep him from turning grass into, well grass? This is the "why" that needs to be addressed. Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down. So, what is the difference between the two? And Peter keeps repeating the question because it has yet to be answered.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2016, 02:44:56 PM »
Just asking why is a bit too open ended because you don't know what exactly where he is coming from. I would answer the "why" question much differently to someone who is a pot advocate as opposed to someone who is interested in discussing the theological implications of altered mental states.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2016, 03:50:48 PM »
I think the insistent "why" is because people keep making statements like "I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so." Okay, but why? Jesus turned water into wine, what's to keep him from turning grass into, well grass? This is the "why" that needs to be addressed.

Frankly, I'm mystified that people who have read even some of the authoritative documents of our religion could ask "why" in the first place. 

Neither Jesus nor his apostles had anything to say about marijuana.  Neither Jesus nor his apostles are portrayed in the New Testament as having used marijuana or other drugs.  If I took this and made a blanket statement that this means marijuana use is a sin, I would merely be applying the same logic to this question that St Basil the Great applies when condemning laughter as sinful in his Longer Rule

But I'm not as holy or wise as St Basil, so I'm left to answer the question PeterTheAleut asked--about why one couldn't imagine Jesus, his apostles, or St Paisios smoking weed--by taking the totality of their words and deeds and using a bit of discernment.  Jesus and his apostles preached a Godward orientation (an aspect of repentance), watchfulness, sobriety, generous simplicity of life (the opposite of prodigality), and similar virtues.  They modeled these virtues.  How does drug use bring the Christian closer to God?  How does it help the Christian to be watchful?  How does it help the Christian to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.?  How does it help me to put a Christian's resources at the service of the least of his brethren?  The consumption of marijuana or other drugs doesn't promote these virtues AFAIK, and often hinders or outright prohibits their exercise.  If someone has evidence to the contrary from the Scriptures (since we are talking about Jesus and his apostles), I'd be glad to become aware of it and reconsider my argument. 

Regarding St Paisios, I think I am on even more solid ground because he was a modern saint who spoke to our own generation, there are people among us who knew him, we have a solid collection of his writings, etc.  I haven't read them all or talked to/heard from all his witnesses, but the closest thing to "drug use" I can think of in his life is taking some coffee before beginning one's night vigil in order to aid alertness and help overcome sleepiness.  I don't see how marijuana would've helped him keep vigil, but I'm open to alternative perspectives.  Perhaps someone with more familiarity with his writings can direct us to teachings about drug use generally or marijuana in particular (I will try to look through my library here and see what I can come up with).  Perhaps someone can share his/her experiences with marijuana and how it helps in keeping a night vigil of noetic prayer or going to Liturgy on Sunday morning.       

Quote
Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down.

St John tells us that the wedding guests were as drunk as you say, but he is silent about what Jesus and his apostles thought about their drunkenness, so I'm not sure your conclusion necessarily follows from the evidence.  We can't even say for sure Jesus and his apostles drank any wine at the feast.  But even if we assume he did, I think we can also assume that they weren't drunk.  Jesus, at least, is able to speak to multiple people, give cogent directions, and function normally in a group where there are definitely-drunk and definitely-sober people.  Or should we presume that "O woman, what have you to do with me?" is really the abusive retort of an angry, drunk Jesus lashing out at his mother for meddling in others' business and bothering him with favours while he's busy getting hammered with his new buddies? 

It is really an abuse of Scripture to take this miracle, the first of Christ's signs, and stretch it into a blessing for intoxication.  The devil exegetes like that.  If we can't be St Basil, let us at least not be Satan. 

Quote
So, what is the difference between the two? And Peter keeps repeating the question because it has yet to be answered.

That was not the question Peter asked.           
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2016, 04:05:57 PM »

Well, I don't fit any of those descriptions. Granted, I haven't smoked in many years now. And the people I knew who smoked it as well were a mixed bunch, dumb and brilliant. You're taking shortcuts to judge people just because you don't like others vegging out on a substance, which more Americans do with a beer or glass of wine in the evening. The people who I know who smoked weed are the types of people who delivered countless babies, know four or more languages, professionally edit film for news crews and make their own movies via their own personal funding, get degrees in financing which is just as hard as getting an accounting degree in business, etc. Do you do or know how to do any of these things? If not, then I would be just as reasonable to wager that we are far smarter than you can ever hope to be. And by just as reasonable I mean not reasonable at all.

I'm not taking shortcuts, it's just what I saw all the time. A bunch of hippie freaks talking nonsense. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying marijuana's confirmed to impair your thinking capability, everyone knows that.
But I guess it is doing great for you guys huh?! Why stop it? I mean, screw that vice nonsense I said, it will actually help you out learning the Fathers and Church teachings. Heck, you might even be some Nobel Prize winners the way you're saying it.
But if it was all good you wouldn't have opened this thread, right? So you know it's bad for you. And for everybody.
The only way to oppose the attempts at trying to establish recreational use as something normal is with rampant opposition. There's no "middle terms", there's no "buts". This is just who I am, call me an a-hole, I recognize it.



Profanity removed by moderator  -PtA

I don't smoke anymore and probably won't smoke for many years to come if at all. It was far more of a social thing for me anyways and who I socialize with has changed. As for impairing your thinking, yeah it does impair thinking in many facets. The point of weed isn't have some sort of intellectual enlightenment, at least as far as I am concerned. This is not to say that it renders one incapable of grabbing some sort of insights, although many but not all are total garbage when one becomes sober again. The point is to experience euphoria, generally in a social environment from my experience. And if you think euphoria is in and of itself a sin, then I have to ask what separates you from a Manichee? There is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven, as Solomon says. So there is a time for relaxing and there is a time for working and thinking.

I know the Fathers fairly well and do read them. You cannot blame me for simply taking a break from any worthwhile intellectual task at hand. Everyone takes breaks. Almost anyone can criticize another for not using their time more wisely. Like, instead of laughing at a dumb joke, I could have been praying incessantly for that poor kid in Africa, etc. The list goes on. It's a frivolous line of argument.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2016, 05:22:42 PM »
I think the insistent "why" is because people keep making statements like "I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so." Okay, but why? Jesus turned water into wine, what's to keep him from turning grass into, well grass? This is the "why" that needs to be addressed.

Frankly, I'm mystified that people who have read even some of the authoritative documents of our religion could ask "why" in the first place. 

Neither Jesus nor his apostles had anything to say about marijuana.  Neither Jesus nor his apostles are portrayed in the New Testament as having used marijuana or other drugs.  If I took this and made a blanket statement that this means marijuana use is a sin, I would merely be applying the same logic to this question that St Basil the Great applies when condemning laughter as sinful in his Longer Rule

But I'm not as holy or wise as St Basil, so I'm left to answer the question PeterTheAleut asked--about why one couldn't imagine Jesus, his apostles, or St Paisios smoking weed--by taking the totality of their words and deeds and using a bit of discernment.  Jesus and his apostles preached a Godward orientation (an aspect of repentance), watchfulness, sobriety, generous simplicity of life (the opposite of prodigality), and similar virtues.  They modeled these virtues.  How does drug use bring the Christian closer to God?  How does it help the Christian to be watchful?  How does it help the Christian to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.?  How does it help me to put a Christian's resources at the service of the least of his brethren?  The consumption of marijuana or other drugs doesn't promote these virtues AFAIK, and often hinders or outright prohibits their exercise.  If someone has evidence to the contrary from the Scriptures (since we are talking about Jesus and his apostles), I'd be glad to become aware of it and reconsider my argument. 

Regarding St Paisios, I think I am on even more solid ground because he was a modern saint who spoke to our own generation, there are people among us who knew him, we have a solid collection of his writings, etc.  I haven't read them all or talked to/heard from all his witnesses, but the closest thing to "drug use" I can think of in his life is taking some coffee before beginning one's night vigil in order to aid alertness and help overcome sleepiness.  I don't see how marijuana would've helped him keep vigil, but I'm open to alternative perspectives.  Perhaps someone with more familiarity with his writings can direct us to teachings about drug use generally or marijuana in particular (I will try to look through my library here and see what I can come up with).  Perhaps someone can share his/her experiences with marijuana and how it helps in keeping a night vigil of noetic prayer or going to Liturgy on Sunday morning.       

Quote
Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down.

St John tells us that the wedding guests were as drunk as you say, but he is silent about what Jesus and his apostles thought about their drunkenness, so I'm not sure your conclusion necessarily follows from the evidence.  We can't even say for sure Jesus and his apostles drank any wine at the feast.  But even if we assume he did, I think we can also assume that they weren't drunk.  Jesus, at least, is able to speak to multiple people, give cogent directions, and function normally in a group where there are definitely-drunk and definitely-sober people.  Or should we presume that "O woman, what have you to do with me?" is really the abusive retort of an angry, drunk Jesus lashing out at his mother for meddling in others' business and bothering him with favours while he's busy getting hammered with his new buddies? 

It is really an abuse of Scripture to take this miracle, the first of Christ's signs, and stretch it into a blessing for intoxication.  The devil exegetes like that.  If we can't be St Basil, let us at least not be Satan. 
+1, this is one good answer.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 05:23:04 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2016, 06:28:44 PM »
Marijuana is a peculiar subject for Peter, one I agree with his opinions on but I think his insistent "Why?" To suggest a possibility that Jesus and his disciples would smoke a doobie is wrong.
What's wrong is what you're reading into my "Why not?"s.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2016, 06:29:40 PM »
Marijuana is a peculiar subject for Peter, one I agree with his opinions on but I think his insistent "Why?" To suggest a possibility that Jesus and his disciples would smoke a doobie is wrong. Moreover these "what if" questions are meaningless.

I think the insistent "why" is because people keep making statements like "I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so." Okay, but why? Jesus turned water into wine, what's to keep him from turning grass into, well grass? This is the "why" that needs to be addressed. Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down. So, what is the difference between the two? And Peter keeps repeating the question because it has yet to be answered.
Exactly!!! We finally have someone who understands what I'm doing. :)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2016, 06:38:25 PM »
I think the insistent "why" is because people keep making statements like "I suppose you can imagine it in the way one can imagine gay Estonian unicorns that sweat cognac and eat Zambian kids, but beyond that, I don't think so." Okay, but why? Jesus turned water into wine, what's to keep him from turning grass into, well grass? This is the "why" that needs to be addressed.

Frankly, I'm mystified that people who have read even some of the authoritative documents of our religion could ask "why" in the first place. 

Neither Jesus nor his apostles had anything to say about marijuana.  Neither Jesus nor his apostles are portrayed in the New Testament as having used marijuana or other drugs.  If I took this and made a blanket statement that this means marijuana use is a sin, I would merely be applying the same logic to this question that St Basil the Great applies when condemning laughter as sinful in his Longer Rule

But I'm not as holy or wise as St Basil, so I'm left to answer the question PeterTheAleut asked--about why one couldn't imagine Jesus, his apostles, or St Paisios smoking weed--by taking the totality of their words and deeds and using a bit of discernment.  Jesus and his apostles preached a Godward orientation (an aspect of repentance), watchfulness, sobriety, generous simplicity of life (the opposite of prodigality), and similar virtues.  They modeled these virtues.  How does drug use bring the Christian closer to God?  How does it help the Christian to be watchful?  How does it help the Christian to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.?  How does it help me to put a Christian's resources at the service of the least of his brethren?  The consumption of marijuana or other drugs doesn't promote these virtues AFAIK, and often hinders or outright prohibits their exercise.  If someone has evidence to the contrary from the Scriptures (since we are talking about Jesus and his apostles), I'd be glad to become aware of it and reconsider my argument. 

Regarding St Paisios, I think I am on even more solid ground because he was a modern saint who spoke to our own generation, there are people among us who knew him, we have a solid collection of his writings, etc.  I haven't read them all or talked to/heard from all his witnesses, but the closest thing to "drug use" I can think of in his life is taking some coffee before beginning one's night vigil in order to aid alertness and help overcome sleepiness.  I don't see how marijuana would've helped him keep vigil, but I'm open to alternative perspectives.  Perhaps someone with more familiarity with his writings can direct us to teachings about drug use generally or marijuana in particular (I will try to look through my library here and see what I can come up with).  Perhaps someone can share his/her experiences with marijuana and how it helps in keeping a night vigil of noetic prayer or going to Liturgy on Sunday morning.       

Quote
Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down.

St John tells us that the wedding guests were as drunk as you say, but he is silent about what Jesus and his apostles thought about their drunkenness, so I'm not sure your conclusion necessarily follows from the evidence.  We can't even say for sure Jesus and his apostles drank any wine at the feast.  But even if we assume he did, I think we can also assume that they weren't drunk.  Jesus, at least, is able to speak to multiple people, give cogent directions, and function normally in a group where there are definitely-drunk and definitely-sober people.  Or should we presume that "O woman, what have you to do with me?" is really the abusive retort of an angry, drunk Jesus lashing out at his mother for meddling in others' business and bothering him with favours while he's busy getting hammered with his new buddies? 

It is really an abuse of Scripture to take this miracle, the first of Christ's signs, and stretch it into a blessing for intoxication.  The devil exegetes like that.  If we can't be St Basil, let us at least not be Satan.
This is the kind of answer I had hoped to receive by asking my question. We had one person state that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I can't imagine them smoking pot, either, but I have a foundation on which to build my inability to imagine that: a knowledge of how Jesus and His disciples lived, of what they taught, and of how much pot smoking appears to contradict all that. I didn't see anything resembling that kind of reasoning when I first saw RaphaCam's post that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I wanted him to explain why he couldn't imagine that.
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2016, 06:40:22 PM »

Neither Jesus nor his apostles had anything to say about marijuana.  Neither Jesus nor his apostles are portrayed in the New Testament as having used marijuana or other drugs.  If I took this and made a blanket statement that this means marijuana use is a sin, I would merely be applying the same logic to this question that St Basil the Great applies when condemning laughter as sinful in his Longer Rule


But I'm not as holy or wise as St Basil, so I'm left to answer the question PeterTheAleut asked--about why one couldn't imagine Jesus, his apostles, or St Paisios smoking weed--by taking the totality of their words and deeds and using a bit of discernment.  Jesus and his apostles preached a Godward orientation (an aspect of repentance), watchfulness, sobriety, generous simplicity of life (the opposite of prodigality), and similar virtues.  They modeled these virtues.  How does drug use bring the Christian closer to God?  How does it help the Christian to be watchful?  How does it help the Christian to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.?  How does it help me to put a Christian's resources at the service of the least of his brethren?  The consumption of marijuana or other drugs doesn't promote these virtues AFAIK, and often hinders or outright prohibits their exercise.  If someone has evidence to the contrary from the Scriptures (since we are talking about Jesus and his apostles), I'd be glad to become aware of it and reconsider my argument. 

For what it's worth, the question of marijuana use was answered for me personally by virtue of experience. I suspect my involvement in these threads is along the same lines as Peters, re: I want to see better arguments. My own personal experience tells me that I can't ever use it for recreational purposes again, but I can't say with any certainty that no one can.

As an aside, I do have to wonder about St Basil. The Scriptures never explicitly say that Jesus laughed, but I have a hard time imagining the One who said "Let the little children come to Me" to not have laughed in their presence. A dour, bearded man would have been a frightening experience.
Quote
Regarding St Paisios, I think I am on even more solid ground because he was a modern saint who spoke to our own generation, there are people among us who knew him, we have a solid collection of his writings, etc.  I haven't read them all or talked to/heard from all his witnesses, but the closest thing to "drug use" I can think of in his life is taking some coffee before beginning one's night vigil in order to aid alertness and help overcome sleepiness.  I don't see how marijuana would've helped him keep vigil, but I'm open to alternative perspectives.  Perhaps someone with more familiarity with his writings can direct us to teachings about drug use generally or marijuana in particular (I will try to look through my library here and see what I can come up with).  Perhaps someone can share his/her experiences with marijuana and how it helps in keeping a night vigil of noetic prayer or going to Liturgy on Sunday morning. 

I would certainly not be the person to share such an experience. There was a time when it certainly allowed me to relax enough to seriously read the Church Fathers, but that's not a crutch I've needed since I truly started on the path to becoming Orthodox.     
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Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down.

St John tells us that the wedding guests were as drunk as you say, but he is silent about what Jesus and his apostles thought about their drunkenness, so I'm not sure your conclusion necessarily follows from the evidence. 
Except we can tell what Jesus thought by Jesus's action. He didn't mystically supply Zacchaeus with more taxpayers to bilk. He didn't say to the woman at the well: "You have had five husbands- by the way, John is single."  Jesus's actions show that there is a time and place for moderate, celebratory intoxication (and the Apostles reply at Pentecost tells us that time is definitely not the third hour of the day).

Quote
We can't even say for sure Jesus and his apostles drank any wine at the feast.  But even if we assume he did, I think we can also assume that they weren't drunk.  Jesus, at least, is able to speak to multiple people, give cogent directions, and function normally in a group where there are definitely-drunk and definitely-sober people.  Or should we presume that "O woman, what have you to do with me?" is really the abusive retort of an angry, drunk Jesus lashing out at his mother for meddling in others' business and bothering him with favours while he's busy getting hammered with his new buddies? 

God forbid.
Quote
It is really an abuse of Scripture to take this miracle, the first of Christ's signs, and stretch it into a blessing for intoxication.  The devil exegetes like that.  If we can't be St Basil, let us at least not be Satan. 
I see nothing satanic about applying the basics of logic to the text. Jesus nowhere else supplies the means for people to sin, rather tells them "Go and sin no more." He supplies good wine to a group of people already mildly intoxicated due to an ongoing celebration. Ergo, mild intoxication is not inherently sinful.
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So, what is the difference between the two? And Peter keeps repeating the question because it has yet to be answered.

That was not the question Peter asked.           
I was going more off of the general gist of Peter's approach to this topic rather than any specific instance in this thread, which is what I think the main topic of this little side-boondoggle to be. And I think as I was typing this Peter confirmed my suspicions  :D
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2016, 06:42:51 PM »

As an aside, I do have to wonder about St Basil. The Scriptures never explicitly say that Jesus laughed, but I have a hard time imagining the One who said "Let the little children come to Me" to not have laughed in their presence. A dour, bearded man would have been a frightening experience.
We know he laughed because of holy iconography.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 06:45:20 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2016, 06:44:05 PM »
Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2016, 06:45:10 PM »
Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.

Toll Houses are real and they are delicious. Thanks, Nestle.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2016, 06:46:34 PM »
Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.
Toll Houses are essential when smoking pot. The munchies can hit you hard.
God bless!

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2016, 06:48:29 PM »
Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.

That's exactly what the dæmons of the first toll house want you to think.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2016, 06:53:29 PM »
Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.
Toll Houses are essential when smoking pot. The munchies can hit you hard.

It used to frustrate my friends to no end that no amount of junk food could make me gain weight.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2016, 06:58:26 PM »
This is the kind of answer I had hoped to receive by asking my question. We had one person state that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I can't imagine them smoking pot, either, but I have a foundation on which to build my inability to imagine that: a knowledge of how Jesus and His disciples lived, of what they taught, and of how much pot smoking appears to contradict all that. I didn't see anything resembling that kind of reasoning when I first saw RaphaCam's post that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I wanted him to explain why he couldn't imagine that.

To be fair to RaphaCam, though, I'm not sure he should have to explain very basic "common sense Orthodox" observations to Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum (and really, his observation was just that, flowing naturally from the principles bolded above, which are the content of basic catechesis). 

That we had to do so--and past threads on this topic are rife with similar exchanges--suggests there is a more significant problem here, and it is not to be found in an unreasoning, irrational piety.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2016, 07:20:20 PM »
This is the kind of answer I had hoped to receive by asking my question. We had one person state that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I can't imagine them smoking pot, either, but I have a foundation on which to build my inability to imagine that: a knowledge of how Jesus and His disciples lived, of what they taught, and of how much pot smoking appears to contradict all that. I didn't see anything resembling that kind of reasoning when I first saw RaphaCam's post that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I wanted him to explain why he couldn't imagine that.

To be fair to RaphaCam, though, I'm not sure he should have to explain very basic "common sense Orthodox" observations to Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum (and really, his observation was just that, flowing naturally from the principles bolded above, which are the content of basic catechesis). 

That we had to do so--and past threads on this topic are rife with similar exchanges--suggests there is a more significant problem here, and it is not to be found in an unreasoning, irrational piety.

Yes, but often these questions come from (not quite there yet) Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum who may not have much exposure to "common sense Orthodox" observations.

There was a time in my life when it wouldn't have stretched my imagination to picture Christ or the Apostles smoking pot. That said, once upon a time when a friend seriously asked, "Do you think Jesus ever smoked pot." My reply was, "I don't think He ever had to. He has eternal communion with the Father and the Spirit."

People here have serious questions, sometimes about subjects we think might be trivial, or that we've gone over before. Some answers might be "common sense Orthodoxy" but we really do owe them the time to take such questions seriously and provide the "why".
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 07:21:02 PM by FormerReformer »
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2016, 07:24:15 PM »

As an aside, I do have to wonder about St Basil. The Scriptures never explicitly say that Jesus laughed, but I have a hard time imagining the One who said "Let the little children come to Me" to not have laughed in their presence. A dour, bearded man would have been a frightening experience.
We know he laughed because of holy iconography.




Hrm. Maybe something can be a more frightening experience than a dour, bearded man after all!
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2016, 07:31:34 PM »
As an aside, I do have to wonder about St Basil. The Scriptures never explicitly say that Jesus laughed, but I have a hard time imagining the One who said "Let the little children come to Me" to not have laughed in their presence. A dour, bearded man would have been a frightening experience.

I was only bringing up that example to make a point about a certain kind of interpretive method, not to begin a tangent about whether or not Jesus ever laughed.   

Quote
Quote
Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down.

St John tells us that the wedding guests were as drunk as you say, but he is silent about what Jesus and his apostles thought about their drunkenness, so I'm not sure your conclusion necessarily follows from the evidence. 
Except we can tell what Jesus thought by Jesus's action. He didn't mystically supply Zacchaeus with more taxpayers to bilk. He didn't say to the woman at the well: "You have had five husbands- by the way, John is single."  Jesus's actions show that there is a time and place for moderate, celebratory intoxication (and the Apostles reply at Pentecost tells us that time is definitely not the third hour of the day).[/quote]

But the miracle at Cana isn't on the same level of "event" as the repentance of Zacchaeus or the conversation with the Samaritan woman, and its function in the Gospel is not as an apologetic for "moderate, celebratory intoxication".  John himself doesn't describe it as a miracle but as a sign.  All the signs are miracles, but not all miracles are signs.  And this sign was the first, it initiated his ministry and the coming of his hour, and the response was that "his disciples believed in him".  It was a theophany, not an affirmation of the proper role of "moderate, celebratory intoxication" (which, by your own admission, this was not: if the guests were already too sloshed to know up from down, making a hundred plus gallons of the best quality wine ever is not likely to encourage "moderation").  As a theophany, this miracle, in all its details, points to so much more than Jesus' inner party animal (it doesn't really point to this at all). 

Quote
Quote
We can't even say for sure Jesus and his apostles drank any wine at the feast.  But even if we assume he did, I think we can also assume that they weren't drunk.  Jesus, at least, is able to speak to multiple people, give cogent directions, and function normally in a group where there are definitely-drunk and definitely-sober people.  Or should we presume that "O woman, what have you to do with me?" is really the abusive retort of an angry, drunk Jesus lashing out at his mother for meddling in others' business and bothering him with favours while he's busy getting hammered with his new buddies? 

God forbid.

I won't ask "why".  :P

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Quote
It is really an abuse of Scripture to take this miracle, the first of Christ's signs, and stretch it into a blessing for intoxication.  The devil exegetes like that.  If we can't be St Basil, let us at least not be Satan. 
I see nothing satanic about applying the basics of logic to the text.

Matthew 4.1-11; Luke 4.1-13.

Quote
Jesus nowhere else supplies the means for people to sin, rather tells them "Go and sin no more." He supplies good wine to a group of people already mildly intoxicated due to an ongoing celebration. Ergo, mild intoxication is not inherently sinful.

Again, you first said (rightly, based on the Gospel) that they were too drunk to know the difference between quality wine and inferior stuff.  Now you're claiming that the people were "mildly intoxicated".  Why? 
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2016, 07:37:12 PM »
This is the kind of answer I had hoped to receive by asking my question. We had one person state that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I can't imagine them smoking pot, either, but I have a foundation on which to build my inability to imagine that: a knowledge of how Jesus and His disciples lived, of what they taught, and of how much pot smoking appears to contradict all that. I didn't see anything resembling that kind of reasoning when I first saw RaphaCam's post that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I wanted him to explain why he couldn't imagine that.

To be fair to RaphaCam, though, I'm not sure he should have to explain very basic "common sense Orthodox" observations to Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum (and really, his observation was just that, flowing naturally from the principles bolded above, which are the content of basic catechesis). 

That we had to do so--and past threads on this topic are rife with similar exchanges--suggests there is a more significant problem here, and it is not to be found in an unreasoning, irrational piety.

Yes, but often these questions come from (not quite there yet) Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum who may not have much exposure to "common sense Orthodox" observations.

There was a time in my life when it wouldn't have stretched my imagination to picture Christ or the Apostles smoking pot. That said, once upon a time when a friend seriously asked, "Do you think Jesus ever smoked pot." My reply was, "I don't think He ever had to. He has eternal communion with the Father and the Spirit."

People here have serious questions, sometimes about subjects we think might be trivial, or that we've gone over before. Some answers might be "common sense Orthodoxy" but we really do owe them the time to take such questions seriously and provide the "why".

If "Do you think Jesus (and the apostles) ever smoked pot?" is a serious question from serious people, I agree with you, we really do owe them the time and effort necessary to provide the "why".  But their deficiency from the get-go (I'm not judging them, just stating a fact) is so grave that we have to end by answering "Could he have smoked pot?" and begin by answering "Who is Jesus?"  I'm not sure it is possible to cover that much basic catechesis in this sort of thread as a prerequisite to answering a question about pot (or masturbation, or oral sex, or software piracy, or a host of other issues that pop up here from time to time).  At that point, a lot more work needs to be done first, and this may not be the best venue for that.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 07:40:52 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2016, 07:41:37 PM »
Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.
Toll Houses are essential when smoking pot. The munchies can hit you hard.

It used to frustrate my friends to no end that no amount of junk food could make me gain weight.

It frustrates me right now.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2016, 07:46:39 PM »

I don't smoke anymore and probably won't smoke for many years to come if at all. It was far more of a social thing for me anyways and who I socialize with has changed. As for impairing your thinking, yeah it does impair thinking in many facets. The point of weed isn't have some sort of intellectual enlightenment, at least as far as I am concerned. This is not to say that it renders one incapable of grabbing some sort of insights, although many but not all are total garbage when one becomes sober again. The point is to experience euphoria, generally in a social environment from my experience. And if you think euphoria is in and of itself a sin, then I have to ask what separates you from a Manichee? There is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven, as Solomon says. So there is a time for relaxing and there is a time for working and thinking.

I know the Fathers fairly well and do read them. You cannot blame me for simply taking a break from any worthwhile intellectual task at hand. Everyone takes breaks. Almost anyone can criticize another for not using their time more wisely. Like, instead of laughing at a dumb joke, I could have been praying incessantly for that poor kid in Africa, etc. The list goes on. It's a frivolous line of argument.

I'm not saying you do.
Okay, let's take it easy now: I'm condemning recreational use here. I condemn it because it poisons our people and mainly because it has destroyed the traditional use of marijuana in determinate cultures.
Now I've read some people saying it "opens doors" in your mind, the same going for LSD. I think Hermann Hesse and Jünger made some points on that.
But I wouldn't recommend that, that's my point.
I would like your input on the euphoria thing, though, didn't completely catch you.

I'm not blaming you from taking a break - I take lots of breaks. The thing is: don't do it in an unhealthy, anti-spiritual fashion.

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Really, is **** off a naughty expression? English is not my mother language.



It is considered naughty on this forum, even when you mask out only some, but not all of it. That explains why I replaced your partially masked version with a completely masked version.

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 03:49:31 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2016, 07:55:52 PM »
As an aside, I do have to wonder about St Basil. The Scriptures never explicitly say that Jesus laughed, but I have a hard time imagining the One who said "Let the little children come to Me" to not have laughed in their presence. A dour, bearded man would have been a frightening experience.

I was only bringing up that example to make a point about a certain kind of interpretive method, not to begin a tangent about whether or not Jesus ever laughed.   
I know. I just love tangents and rabbit trails. I did mention it was an aside, didn't I?

Quote
Quote
Is there some sort of moral difference between marijuana and wine? It can't be a blanket condemnation of intoxication at any level- those wedding guests were so loaded they couldn't tell top-shelf from watered down.

St John tells us that the wedding guests were as drunk as you say, but he is silent about what Jesus and his apostles thought about their drunkenness, so I'm not sure your conclusion necessarily follows from the evidence. 
Except we can tell what Jesus thought by Jesus's action. He didn't mystically supply Zacchaeus with more taxpayers to bilk. He didn't say to the woman at the well: "You have had five husbands- by the way, John is single."  Jesus's actions show that there is a time and place for moderate, celebratory intoxication (and the Apostles reply at Pentecost tells us that time is definitely not the third hour of the day).[/quote]

But the miracle at Cana isn't on the same level of "event" as the repentance of Zacchaeus or the conversation with the Samaritan woman, and its function in the Gospel is not as an apologetic for "moderate, celebratory intoxication".  John himself doesn't describe it as a miracle but as a sign.  All the signs are miracles, but not all miracles are signs.  And this sign was the first, it initiated his ministry and the coming of his hour, and the response was that "his disciples believed in him".  It was a theophany, not an affirmation of the proper role of "moderate, celebratory intoxication" (which, by your own admission, this was not: if the guests were already too sloshed to know up from down, making a hundred plus gallons of the best quality wine ever is not likely to encourage "moderation").[/quote]
I'll address the parenthetical later on.
Quote
  As a theophany, this miracle, in all its details, points to so much more than Jesus' inner party animal (it doesn't really point to this at all). 

Quote
Quote
We can't even say for sure Jesus and his apostles drank any wine at the feast.  But even if we assume he did, I think we can also assume that they weren't drunk.  Jesus, at least, is able to speak to multiple people, give cogent directions, and function normally in a group where there are definitely-drunk and definitely-sober people.  Or should we presume that "O woman, what have you to do with me?" is really the abusive retort of an angry, drunk Jesus lashing out at his mother for meddling in others' business and bothering him with favours while he's busy getting hammered with his new buddies? 

God forbid.

I won't ask "why".  :P
LOL
Quote
Quote
Quote
It is really an abuse of Scripture to take this miracle, the first of Christ's signs, and stretch it into a blessing for intoxication.  The devil exegetes like that.  If we can't be St Basil, let us at least not be Satan. 
I see nothing satanic about applying the basics of logic to the text.

Matthew 4.1-11; Luke 4.1-13.

Basics of logic. Not twisting the Scriptures to provide temptation for others. Which I could see how this could be interpreted as such, what with me saying "mild intoxication is not inherently sinful", but we're coming to that anyway....

Quote
Quote
Jesus nowhere else supplies the means for people to sin, rather tells them "Go and sin no more." He supplies good wine to a group of people already mildly intoxicated due to an ongoing celebration. Ergo, mild intoxication is not inherently sinful.
Quote
Again, you first said (rightly, based on the Gospel) that they were too drunk to know the difference between quality wine and inferior stuff.  Now you're claiming that the people were "mildly intoxicated".  Why?
Well, personal experience tells me that one doesn't need to be completely hammered to not know (or rather, not care about) the difference between the good stuff and the bad. Certainly accepting an MGD when one prefers Guinness is not being inebriated to the point of not "knowing up from down." (And in fact might even be necessary if one is in an establishment that doesn't supply that delicious treat) A mild level of intoxication can make one care less about the taste, and the interests of ongoing celebration demand that more alcohol be supplied, regardless of quality.

And note: they weren't too drunk to not be able to tell the difference (I used exaggeration for rhetorical purposes earlier, but let's be honest to the text now that we're getting serious). Rather, when the good stuff was brought forth it was immediately noticed and commented upon.

But the logic follows. God is not the author of sin. Christ came to call us from our sins, not to enable us in continuing to sin. The wedding party at Cana was not sinning in their level of intoxication, otherwise Christ would not have done what He did - and indeed, the Mother of God would not have made the request she did! To say otherwise about the wedding would be blasphemy.

Edited to fix quote tags
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 08:04:44 PM by FormerReformer »
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2016, 08:03:13 PM »
This is the kind of answer I had hoped to receive by asking my question. We had one person state that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I can't imagine them smoking pot, either, but I have a foundation on which to build my inability to imagine that: a knowledge of how Jesus and His disciples lived, of what they taught, and of how much pot smoking appears to contradict all that. I didn't see anything resembling that kind of reasoning when I first saw RaphaCam's post that he couldn't imagine Jesus and His disciples smoking pot. I wanted him to explain why he couldn't imagine that.

To be fair to RaphaCam, though, I'm not sure he should have to explain very basic "common sense Orthodox" observations to Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum (and really, his observation was just that, flowing naturally from the principles bolded above, which are the content of basic catechesis). 

That we had to do so--and past threads on this topic are rife with similar exchanges--suggests there is a more significant problem here, and it is not to be found in an unreasoning, irrational piety.

Yes, but often these questions come from (not quite there yet) Orthodox people on an Orthodox forum who may not have much exposure to "common sense Orthodox" observations.

There was a time in my life when it wouldn't have stretched my imagination to picture Christ or the Apostles smoking pot. That said, once upon a time when a friend seriously asked, "Do you think Jesus ever smoked pot." My reply was, "I don't think He ever had to. He has eternal communion with the Father and the Spirit."

People here have serious questions, sometimes about subjects we think might be trivial, or that we've gone over before. Some answers might be "common sense Orthodoxy" but we really do owe them the time to take such questions seriously and provide the "why".

If "Do you think Jesus (and the apostles) ever smoked pot?" is a serious question from serious people, I agree with you, we really do owe them the time and effort necessary to provide the "why".  But their deficiency from the get-go (I'm not judging them, just stating a fact) is so grave that we have to end by answering "Could he have smoked pot?" and begin by answering "Who is Jesus?"  I'm not sure it is possible to cover that much basic catechesis in this sort of thread as a prerequisite to answering a question about pot (or masturbation, or oral sex, or software piracy, or a host of other issues that pop up here from time to time).  At that point, a lot more work needs to be done first, and this may not be the best venue for that.
I was referring more to the topic of marijuana use and the morality or lack thereof. I think the "Jesus and Apostles smoking pot" was less a serious question and more of a less-than-serious answer to the question already in play. Though, I've already indicated the ways in which I could see a pot-smoking Christian answering that question in the positive.

Since i have learned that Toll Houses are not real, i am free to do whatever i want, as long as i take part in the Liturgy as pre-icon of the Kingdom of God, i am cool.
Toll Houses are essential when smoking pot. The munchies can hit you hard.

It used to frustrate my friends to no end that no amount of junk food could make me gain weight.

It frustrates me right now.

If it's any consolation, I don't eat anywhere near as much junk food as I did then :D  The fasting periods seem to be what does it for me these days- I'll just be getting up to a "healthy" weight when Lent or Advent hits and then I'm back at square one!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 08:06:02 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2016, 10:24:38 PM »
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #78 on: February 06, 2016, 12:03:54 AM »
Well, personal experience tells me that one doesn't need to be completely hammered to not know (or rather, not care about) the difference between the good stuff and the bad. Certainly accepting an MGD when one prefers Guinness is not being inebriated to the point of not "knowing up from down." (And in fact might even be necessary if one is in an establishment that doesn't supply that delicious treat) A mild level of intoxication can make one care less about the taste, and the interests of ongoing celebration demand that more alcohol be supplied, regardless of quality.

And note: they weren't too drunk to not be able to tell the difference (I used exaggeration for rhetorical purposes earlier, but let's be honest to the text now that we're getting serious). Rather, when the good stuff was brought forth it was immediately noticed and commented upon.

If by "they", you mean the sober waitstaff, yes, they were able to tell the difference.  They were also able to know that the quality would be lost on the drunk guests. 

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But the logic follows. God is not the author of sin. Christ came to call us from our sins, not to enable us in continuing to sin. The wedding party at Cana was not sinning in their level of intoxication, otherwise Christ would not have done what He did - and indeed, the Mother of God would not have made the request she did! To say otherwise about the wedding would be blasphemy.

This is a very simplistic interpretation.  And convenient.  Still, no.

The Gospel account does not address whether or not the guests were sinning.  It's not concerned with that question.  You can't make a declaration that the guests were not sinning anymore than you can declare they were sinning. 

As for Christ not doing things he ought not to have done and his Mother not asking for such favours, remember that Christ responded to his Mother's "They have no wine" with, more or less, "So what?  It's not my time yet."  But she proceeded to act as if he said "Yes, Mom", and he did it anyway, exceeding all expectations.  Which one of them was blaspheming?
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2016, 02:38:05 AM »
Well, personal experience tells me that one doesn't need to be completely hammered to not know (or rather, not care about) the difference between the good stuff and the bad. Certainly accepting an MGD when one prefers Guinness is not being inebriated to the point of not "knowing up from down." (And in fact might even be necessary if one is in an establishment that doesn't supply that delicious treat) A mild level of intoxication can make one care less about the taste, and the interests of ongoing celebration demand that more alcohol be supplied, regardless of quality.

And note: they weren't too drunk to not be able to tell the difference (I used exaggeration for rhetorical purposes earlier, but let's be honest to the text now that we're getting serious). Rather, when the good stuff was brought forth it was immediately noticed and commented upon.

If by "they", you mean the sober waitstaff, yes, they were able to tell the difference.  They were also able to know that the quality would be lost on the drunk guests. 

By "they" I mean at the very least the master of the feast, the man presiding over the whole affair, who made the comment. Part of his job at this occasion ("job" here being used very loosely, not a hired hand, more of an honored guest) was to drink, comment upon the drink, keep drinking, and ensure that favored guests were provided with said drink. Of course, Sirach recommends moderation so that one may properly fulfill his duties in such a role, but then he also says that when said duties are fulfilled it's perfectly acceptable to "get down" as the kids are calling it.

Though, in all fairness, your explanation follows closely with St John Chrysostom's.
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Quote
But the logic follows. God is not the author of sin. Christ came to call us from our sins, not to enable us in continuing to sin. The wedding party at Cana was not sinning in their level of intoxication, otherwise Christ would not have done what He did - and indeed, the Mother of God would not have made the request she did! To say otherwise about the wedding would be blasphemy.

This is a very simplistic interpretation.  And convenient.  Still, no.

How many Fathers use this very same event to show the blessedness and approval of God over the institution of marriage, using the same sort of convenient and simplistic interpretation? I'm sure we can find far more Patristic consensus for the event showing approval of marriage than St Basil's interpetational gymnastics to condemn laughter!

Going back to the Old Testament era there was a certain acceptable level of intoxication for the purposes of celebration. Drunkenness was condemned, making merry was not.

As well, the wedding at Cana prefigures another, more eternal wedding feast. I would hate to be the teetotaler at that feast - and indeed, would think by that point any hint of moderation would be abandoned.
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The Gospel account does not address whether or not the guests were sinning.  It's not concerned with that question.  You can't make a declaration that the guests were not sinning anymore than you can declare they were sinning. 
But you would surely agree that the Lord would not aid them in sin? And again, the Fathers use the same event to show that the marriage bed is indeed, as another Apostle says, undefiled. It is not out of place to use a Gospel passage that makes no mention of sin to decide the question of whether an act is, or is not sinful. Of course, much like marriage has it's counterpart in the Church with the celibates, it is also not out of place to suggest that total sobriety might be the better option for this lifetime.
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As for Christ not doing things he ought not to have done and his Mother not asking for such favours, remember that Christ responded to his Mother's "They have no wine" with, more or less, "So what?  It's not my time yet." 
I think we could very easily derail this thread (if we haven't already done so) plumbing the depths of what Christ meant with "It is not yet my time".
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But she proceeded to act as if he said "Yes, Mom", and he did it anyway, exceeding all expectations.  Which one of them was blaspheming?
Again, to really mine this, we would probably derail the thread. I suspect at this end we're trying to score rhetorical points off each other more than anything. I'll let stand what I've said earlier in this reply and opt against attempting to dance on the head of the pin with the 30 or so angels (depending on how steep the cover charge) already there with this end of the discussion.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2016, 05:33:29 PM »
Where in John 2 does it say that the guests at the wedding feast were drunk? Just because they ran out of wine, doesn't necessarily mean that they were drunk. It could just mean that there were a lot of guests.

Edit: Nvm...Jn 2:10

Going back to the Old Testament era there was a certain acceptable level of intoxication for the purposes of celebration. Drunkenness was condemned, making merry was not.
How intoxicated does someone have to be in order to be drunk? Just above the legal BAC level for driving?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 05:44:59 PM by byhisgrace »
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2016, 05:39:13 PM »
Where in John 2 does it say that the guests at the wedding feast were drunk? Just because they ran out of wine, doesn't necessarily mean that they were drunk. It could just mean that there were a lot of guests.

It's said they could not get the difference between good and bad wine
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2016, 07:01:47 PM »
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“Also, one will beautify [Shabbat candle lighting] when the wick is made from cotton, flax or cannabis…”

That’s right, cannabis.

This dictate, found in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law), piqued the curiosity of Boston geriatrician Yosef Glassman when he was reading about Sabbath rituals on a religious quest nearly two decades ago.

...
...
In the talk, Glassman described finding several biblical references to the herb that include Book of Numbers 17:12-13, where Aaron the High Priest, “no pun intended,” probably burned marijuana as an incense offering “during a time of turmoil.” Other passages include God’s instructions to Moses to “take for yourself herbs b’samim” — herbs of medicinal quality — and instructions in Exodus to “take spices of the finest sort, pure myrrh, five hundred shekels, fragrant cinnamon, and ‘keneh bosem,’” which literally means “sweet cane,” but possibly refers to cannabis, said Glassman. “Keneh bosem” is also mentioned in the Song of Songs 4:14, Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20 and Ezekiel 27:19. Another pronunciation is the Aramaic “kene busma,” which, perhaps unsurprisingly, is also the name of a modern reggae musician.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/1.562450

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kaneh-bosem only occurs once, in Exodus 30:23

    “Also take for yourself quality spices—five hundred shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much sweet-smelling cinnamon (two hundred and fifty shekels), two hundred and fifty shekels of sweet-smelling cane (קנה בשם kaneh-bosem).  – NKJV

The context here is for creating an anointing oil that is to be used for anointing sacred objects, from the tabernacle to priests. But it is not meant for consumption or topical treatment for any medical purpose.
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/departinghoreb/is-cannabis-mentioned-in-the-bible/
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2016, 08:50:13 PM »
Where in John 2 does it say that the guests at the wedding feast were drunk? Just because they ran out of wine, doesn't necessarily mean that they were drunk. It could just mean that there were a lot of guests.

Edit: Nvm...Jn 2:10

Going back to the Old Testament era there was a certain acceptable level of intoxication for the purposes of celebration. Drunkenness was condemned, making merry was not.
How intoxicated does someone have to be in order to be drunk? Just above the legal BAC level for driving?

Well, we have to take into account a difference in chronology and culture. A lot of what we consider here in America to be "intoxication" would be "Tuesday afternoon" in other cultures. I don't think blood alcohol level really does anything other than set a legal baseline for officers to incarcerate people for drunk driving - the difference between "merry" and "sodden" is more subjective and has to do with the mindset of the drinking persons. If conversation is flowing, people are speaking rapidly and happily, and the white boys have *just* hit the dance floor, we have reached the point of merry. When fights start breaking out, people start passing out, the depressive effects of alcohol have set in, or the white boys have started to attempt the worm or pop'n'lock, then soddenness has arrived.

A certain amount of discernment is needed. Of course, part of the problem with being drunk is that discernment goes right out the window. Generally speaking, though, once one knows their limits they can avoid the point of drinking where judgement is significantly impaired (though occasionally outside factors such as unknown illness or having skipped a meal can lower those limits and take one unaware). 
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2016, 08:34:18 PM »
From a Christian point of view, especially the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic, is smoking weed/marijuana sinful?

Setting aside medical utility, I fail to see how the recreational use of marijuana does not represent a sinful indulgence in the passions.   The Ethiopian church has said as much due to the Rasta question.  I also believe it is neccessary to reject the Hashish-assisted asceticism of the Hindu Saddhus and related non-Christian religions in the strongest possible way.

@wgw - what do you have against the Hashish-assisted asceticism of the Hindu Saddhus? I ask, because I hear a lot about Opiate addicts doing better with Cannabis. I mean, besides that they are non-Christian, obviously? What do they do besides eat a lot of hashish?
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2016, 08:38:27 AM »
I doubt that if they had cannabis thousands of years ago, that it was used for anything but medicinal purposes such as pain relief and to make cloth and rope.


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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2016, 09:11:54 AM »
From a Christian point of view, especially the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic, is smoking weed/marijuana sinful?

Setting aside medical utility, I fail to see how the recreational use of marijuana does not represent a sinful indulgence in the passions.   The Ethiopian church has said as much due to the Rasta question.  I also believe it is neccessary to reject the Hashish-assisted asceticism of the Hindu Saddhus and related non-Christian religions in the strongest possible way.

@wgw - what do you have against the Hashish-assisted asceticism of the Hindu Saddhus? I ask, because I hear a lot about Opiate addicts doing better with Cannabis. I mean, besides that they are non-Christian, obviously? What do they do besides eat a lot of hashish?

What I have against their asceticism is that it is a soul-destroying process, making them conduits for demonic activity; these evil men are celebrated around the world as the great holy men of India and as ascetics par excellence, but in fact, their ascetic labours are made laughable by their use of hashish to blunt the pain, and they are simply devil worshippers (Psalm 95:5 LXX; explain to me how Shiva manifest as Kali is not at best the product of drug induced hallucination, from a "bad trip," at worse, a demon).

As far as pain management is concerned, given the risks to the pulmonary tract from smoking hashish, I think the idea of forcing people with chronic pain down that road would be horrendous.   And how are you going to manage the pain of a trauma patient with a partially collapsed lung and an obstructed airway, on a ventillator, that way?  It is ridiculous.

If people addicted to heroin are able to get free of it using hashish, great, but lets let the doctors make the call on what drugs to use for pain management and how to deal with the risk and management of the addictive properties of these drugs (in some cases, what looks like addiction is actually the underlying injury remaining untreated or untreatable; certain forms of spinal injury will produce incurable and degenerative neuropathies).  Some people have had positive results with marijuana-based treatments, so I think that should be an area of research, but, smoking it as a delivery system should be out of the question.

But this is a biomedical question and properly speaking all we can do is Christians is pray for the people with this ailment, and give them healing oil, as per St. James, which does work, by the way (I have seen it first hand in action against cancer).   The Eucharist can also be a veriable panacea if approached with fear of God, faith, love and proper repentance and preparation, rescuing us from a variety of mental and physical problems.

But the hash used sacramentally by Rastas and Saddhus just makes things worse.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2016, 10:55:39 AM »
If someone is dying in a few years and smoking pot helps him to get rid of pain, lung cancer in 30 years is not much of a problem.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2016, 01:37:10 PM »
So many replies in this thread assume cannabis is a guilty pleasure. (If it is, it's not the only one we consume.) Through most of history it's use was as a herb and medicine. I think that because the pharmaceutical industry has coopted most of the ancient remedies, patented and synthesized them, had them "scheduled" by governments around the world, we no longer even realize that Nature was the inventor of most of our medicines. There is a godly use for alcohol (I Tim 5:23), a substance that has been abused, for recreation or clumsy self-medication, since ancient times -- why not a godly use for cannabis? There isn't much discussion among conservative Christians about whether it is wrong to accept a prescription for hydrocodone or morphine. Why are these not despicable too, considering their long history as recreation? Traditionalism (small "t") seems to have a selective memory.
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Re: Using Marijuana (weed)?
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2016, 03:26:37 PM »
I really couldn't see why it would be wrong to use marijuana medically, and I favour its legalisation in my country even for recreational uses for practical reasons, but smoking weed seems to fall way off the WWJD spectrum. As using morphine, hydrocodone or sleep pills recreatively would.
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